Diminishing faith

delete5230

Now's a good time to clear the air.  I wouldn't make a topic if it had only my opinion in mind.

"I don't hate the game", never have !!...... I'm sure I'm speaking for a lot of people.   

Pantheon's reputation is diminishing since inception, so this topic is valid in many others opinions too. 

Originally the news of Pantheon was taken as a HUGE event here and all over. It was a large announcement to both old schoolers and even haters.   It had Brad Mcquad, EQ1, and Old School for a reputation for those that wanted it.  

Because of the three reasons above people felt safe about the project.  Even the Vanguard blunder was squashed and forgiven, Brad was forgiven too.  People expected "professionalism".  Visionary Realms was invented with the motto of not letting Triple A management stand in their way.  mmorpg players loved this, finally a development team that had freedom to do as they pleased in an industry full of small childish gotty playground games. 
 
Here's what were getting instead:
- Unclear timelines.  10% 30% 60% 90% done. Tell us ?????
- STILL in pre-alpha.
- Old out dated programming. 
- Graphics above their skill level. 
- Bad animation above their skill level.
- Refusal of using modern gaming templates. 
- Audio pod-cast that focus on boring minor details only.
- Gameplay pod-cast that are amateur quality program files.
 

The Microsoft debates now fits !
After years, 10% done and not looking good.  After re-management eventually released 60%..... Face it they don't know what their doing, BUT HAVE GREAT IDEAS ON PAPER.


Advice:
- Scrap the entire project.
- Hire professional game/world designers.  
- Oversee development to insure Old School theme. 
- Don't let Visionary Realms programmers touch a computer.  Story magic only. 



Will we get a game ?
 Yes 5 more years.

Will it be broken ?
 Yes, as bad as Vanguard.









 

Scorchien

And when i Lobbied for a STFU reaction they told me that it would not see use and not neccassary ...

   Lol .. go figure

lahnmir

I thought you were joining their team to right all their horrible wrongs. These boards are not the place to flaunt your expertise. Godspeed and keep us updated! 

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

delete5230

lahnmir said:

I thought you were joining their team to right all their horrible wrongs. These boards are not the place to flaunt your expertise. Godspeed and keep us updated! 

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Definitely not joining.  But would be good at overseeing and cleaning house, of bad programmers.

However too much money wasted, best to start a new company. 

 

Wizardry

I have no mmorpg's on my radar,i know what it takes to make the game i want and i do not see a single developer that will do it.
It really says a lot about how i feel about where mmorpg's are at right now in that i would choose ATLAS "the devs piss me off like no other"over mmolpg's.

Reason is simple,i look for improving and new game features ideas that also make sense.It is very important o make note of "make sense"i don' want content ideas just for the sake of having content.

Every single game is going to be doing some really dumb ideas,it is impossible to escape that but if you can put together a package that is unique and feels like i am really in a world,then great job.
I have not seen ANY improvement on the genre since FFXI in 2003 and that game introduced MANY features never seen in a mmorpg and still to this day.I have also NEVER seen an event type content done any better than FFXI's Beseiged,so i ask WTF have these developers been doing besides selling us HALF ASSED gaming?

To make my point very clear,i don't give a crap about levels or level treadmills or systems designed to facilitate levels.I don't give a crap about Raids or Raid bosses  nor do i care to see instances or gear treadmills.Ok so i now just eliminated every single mmorpg,hence why i no longer play them.

I stuck by mmorpg's a very long time,i gave them a more than fair chance to improve and get to where i expect them to be but it never happened.I had a small glimmer of hope with pantheon when Brad told me he wanted a game that MADE SENSE,i was like wtf dude that is EXACTLY what i wanted to hear.The problem is i KNOW the game will lack what i already have going on in Atlas,so it will just not appeal to me,look back at what i do NOT care about in a mmorpg.

TwoTubes

I don't completely disagree but this thread would hold a lot more weight if it was started by anyone other than delete.

delete5230

TwoTubes said:

I don't completely disagree but this thread would hold a lot more weight if it was started by anyone other than delete.

When someone hates someone as bad as most people hate me here.  Nothing I say would be agreeable. 

The number one motivator for this hatred is when I "tell" people all this crap for the last 8 years are not mmoprgs, their games-online..... People don't like to be "told".

Sorry but if it's a "fact" it has to be told. I deal strictly with facts and leave emotions out of it....... Most mmorpg players are gone from this site to agree.  Were left with online gamers here, people that like both, and several that will stick around because they like arguments.

I stick by what an mmorpg is and will never change.




If they change the name of this site to "Games-Online with other players around you", I wouldn't have a reason to be here...... But no, it's mmorpg.com 

Scot

So what? We are talking another 2 to 3 years, that's alright by me. It will not live up to everyone's expectations, what MMO does?

delete5230

Scot said:

So what? We are talking another 2 to 3 years, that's alright by me. It will not live up to everyone's expectations, what MMO does?

2 to 3 years ?.....Sounds like you ASSUMING maybe 70% done. 

I'm ASSUMING maybe 20% done.

Some are thinking 90% done and their keeping it under NDA.


Since the game is taking much longer than people are expecting. Out of respect, they should give SOME INDICATION...... Zero indication of anything. 

DafAtRandom

delete5230 said:

Scot said:

So what? We are talking another 2 to 3 years, that's alright by me. It will not live up to everyone's expectations, what MMO does?

2 to 3 years ?.....Sounds like you ASSUMING maybe 70% done. 

I'm ASSUMING maybe 20% done.

Some are thinking 90% done and their keeping it under NDA.


Since the game is taking much longer than people are expecting. Out of respect, they should give SOME INDICATION...... Zero indication of anything. 

Since you claim yourself that you deal only with facts, maybe you should educate your sorry ass and realize that it is NOT taking longer than expected because the expectation was always set to releasing the game when it's ready.

Stop trying to hard.  Constant failure is hard on one's morale.  It's taking longer than what YOU are expecting.  Those of us with at least half a brain cell left and the reading comprehension of a 4 year old already understand the game will release in time with no timetable on the menu.

Get the fuck over yourself.

ChildoftheShadows

Lol

kitarad

I doubt anyone sincerely hates you. They might make fun of you and lol and wtf your posts a lot but you're an easy target. Don't take it to heart and continue with your crusade, it livens these boards and god knows we don't have enough threads on Pantheon. 

delete5230

DafAtRandom said:

delete5230 said:

Scot said:

So what? We are talking another 2 to 3 years, that's alright by me. It will not live up to everyone's expectations, what MMO does?

2 to 3 years ?.....Sounds like you ASSUMING maybe 70% done. 

I'm ASSUMING maybe 20% done.

Some are thinking 90% done and their keeping it under NDA.


Since the game is taking much longer than people are expecting. Out of respect, they should give SOME INDICATION...... Zero indication of anything. 

Since you claim yourself that you deal only with facts, maybe you should educate your sorry ass and realize that it is NOT taking longer than expected because the expectation was always set to releasing the game when it's ready.

Stop trying to hard.  Constant failure is hard on one's morale.  It's taking longer than what YOU are expecting.  Those of us with at least half a brain cell left and the reading comprehension of a 4 year old already understand the game will release in time with no timetable on the menu.

Get the fuck over yourself.

With saying, get the fuck over yourself, I'll assume your mad.  I personally deal in emotionless facts. Because after all facts are facts.

So read my lips...... Zero-indication-of-anything.  

TwistedSister77

I think Wizardly or someone mentioned they are a really small team, like less than 30. 

Not sure if that is true... but yeah, will take a really long time to make a somewhat modern mmorpg with a team that size... even if they were all A++ developers.

Wellspring

Sorry you lost faith in Pantheon @delete5230 .

Here's to hoping you can be pleasantly surprised one day when the game launches!

If not, hopefully you end up finding a different game to call home.

achesoma

Just food for thought, but New World has been in development for roughly same timeframe as Pantheon. So even with unlimited funds and resources there are always barriers to development. And VR is a very small, startup business. 

Yeah, they could give a percentage complete but it would be completely arbitrary anyway. I believe if people don’t have patience to wait for development, then they probably won’t have the patience to play it either. 

jdnyc

delete5230 said:

Pantheon's reputation is diminishing since inception, so this topic is valid in many others opinions too. 

Their reputation is diminishing since inception?  Ummm... their kickstarter failed.  They've had an uphill battle since their inception.

Tanist

Only came in to say, as I have spent money on their venture (so I have a established contention), I think them to be a sell out, and their venture will end up being that of another mainstream delivery ridden on the backs of "old school" anticipated game design.

It is already apparent they have sold out. There were hints of it from early on (the whole "sell items for support" which was shot down by the early subscribers), then over time as they spent more and more time appealing to mainstream over traditional concepts (graphics, graphics, and my gosh! More graphics). Now I am not surprised, Brad was soft from the start with his caravan concept (as well as his push for city to city ports (ala Vanguard which Joppa shot down, surprised as I was considering the current direction). 

Add in Call of Hero as well, and I started to doubt the direction of the game. Then over the years, old school players began to question focus, and the FAQ was slowly changed to meet new directions and I became suspicious. Also, having watched the forums since the inception (and traversal over two mediums), I watched the tone and demeanor of the players change. 

Those of you thinking Pantheon is an EQ/Vanguard successor, something that you had hopped to "relive" of the adventures of those pasts, forget it. Pantheon is a mainstream, new gem... a new concept, a new game... no different than any other mainstream game being developed and released today. You were fooled, you were lied to, you were conditioned to a purpose. 

To quote a Star Wars theme "This is not the game you were seeking"

This will be YET another mainstream release.

For those idiots who would hope to jump on this bandwagon, note this...


Pantheon failed initially because they were not prepared properly for their kick starter. Any company would have failed approaching a venture as such. They weren't prepared, they had nothing to show other than stills (ie pictures). 

They moved on, gained a following, which supported their "ideal" (which was clearly outlined in their charter). Those people funded them to where they are now.... How is that working out for ya? Yep... thought so. 


Those people expected a given result, understood such and no matter how much Joppa or any VR employee claims, the facts are there, they operated off the "intention" that they would provide a semblance of the games people loved as EQ and Vanguard. 

What we see now, more mainstream garbage.

Good luck with that. 

I will grab the popcorn and eagerly await the disaster coming with the FTP 1-10 levels. 

Stupid is, as stupid does...

looking forward to it VR. Have fun!

Sovrath

Tanist said:

To quote a Star Wars theme "This is not the game you were seeking"

This will be YET another mainstream release.

For those idiots who would hope to jump on this bandwagon, note this...

You're quick to call people "idiots" yet ...

You did give money to a project where it's always said that these projects can change over the course of the development.

I highly doubt it will be a "mainstream release" just as I doubt it will be the living emodiment of everquest or vanguard (and the arguments that seem to ensue as to which game they were using as inspiration.)

I think rather than take your word for it "if" this game releases (IF!) only then will I make my decision as to whether they made the game they really wanted to make, whether they "sold out" and regardless of which, whether the game is actually good.

Sorry you spent money. I guess lesson learned for you huh?

rounner

You remind me of people complaining about Game Of Thrones that say they would have ended it better then proceed to give the most obvious banal tropes. It wasn't the script writers fault George RR Martin painted the story lines into a corner then dumped it in their lap. The idea that all of the story arcs had to finish together goes against the spirit of the show anyway.

What has that got to do with Pantheon? You mention 'modern templates' which implies just another Unity/UE skin game. May as well just mod Skyrim. That's how 90% of MMO's feel to me, the same game with the same engine with different artistic elements.

BruceYee

Wasn't the point of crowdfunded MMO's to be the transparency that THEY said big companies would not allow. Meanwhile we are debating/guessing whether the project is 20% or 70% done and wasn't that not supposed to happen because of that huge selling point for their KS campaigns >>> transparency.

Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?

I don't think Pantheon should scrap the project entirely like you suggest but maybe communicate a little better about where in the timeline they're actually at. If they say they are at 20% after all these years then maybe they do need some type of revamp of their priorities but if they are 50-70% probably just continue on as they are currently.

Nanfoodle

BruceYee said:

Wasn't the point of crowdfunded MMO's to be the transparency that THEY said big companies would not allow. Meanwhile we are debating/guessing whether the project is 20% or 70% done and wasn't that not supposed to happen because of that huge selling point for their KS campaigns >>> transparency.

Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?

I don't think Pantheon should scrap the project entirely like you suggest but maybe communicate a little better about where in the timeline they're actually at. If they say they are at 20% after all these years then maybe they do need some type of revamp of their priorities but if they are 50-70% probably just continue on as they are currently.

They are open and forward with the development and where it is. If you go to their official forums and read the announcement sections. There is a constant flow of updates. They are in Pre-Alpha 5 and not to far from Alpha, that means the core game is almost rdy for testing.

BeansnBread

Nanfoodle said:
They are in Pre-Alpha 5 and not to far from Alpha, that means the core game is almost rdy for testing.

This is just nonsense.

ChildoftheShadows

I remember when Darkfall online was announced in 2002. I was excited and followed it for about 6 months and then forgot about it for 10 years. Then played it for 4. 

Kyleran

Nanfoodle said:

BruceYee said:

Wasn't the point of crowdfunded MMO's to be the transparency that THEY said big companies would not allow. Meanwhile we are debating/guessing whether the project is 20% or 70% done and wasn't that not supposed to happen because of that huge selling point for their KS campaigns >>> transparency.

Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?

I don't think Pantheon should scrap the project entirely like you suggest but maybe communicate a little better about where in the timeline they're actually at. If they say they are at 20% after all these years then maybe they do need some type of revamp of their priorities but if they are 50-70% probably just continue on as they are currently.

They are open and forward with the development and where it is. If you go to their official forums and read the announcement sections. There is a constant flow of updates. They are in Pre-Alpha 5 and not to far from Alpha, that means the core game is almost rdy for testing.

Same BS info tactic used by all of these Indies, flood users with tons of info of what has been done to date or is in progress.

What really matters is how much work remains and how long is it projected at this point to complete.

Well, that and the burn rates vs available and projected funds.....

Never going to see either from any of them.

TwoTubes

Scot said:

So what? We are talking another 2 to 3 years, that's alright by me. It will not live up to everyone's expectations, what MMO does?

We have been saying 2 or 3 years since 2016 when we were told that alpha and beta would be in 2017 though...