Wasn't the point of crowdfunded MMO's to be the transparency that THEY said big companies would not allow. Meanwhile we are debating/guessing whether the project is 20% or 70% done and wasn't that not supposed to happen because of that huge selling point for their KS campaigns >>> transparency.
Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?
I don't think Pantheon should scrap the project entirely like you suggest but maybe communicate a little better about where in the timeline they're actually at. If they say they are at 20% after all these years then maybe they do need some type of revamp of their priorities but if they are 50-70% probably just continue on as they are currently.
This reminds me of the old saying, "if it aint broke, don't fix it."
I agree it would be great to see much more transparency. It seem so obvious to all of us the many, many ways they could increase confidence and attract more pledges. And if it's obvious to us, it has got to be super obvious to the Pantheon devs, right?? And yet.... they aren't doing it.
Which leads me to conclude, they are content with their current pace & funding.
You're jumping to the conclusion that they still NEED more crowdfunds. But we don't know how much of their revenue now comes from private investors and how much comes from crowd funding. It could be 95% private for all we know. Which if it is, it would make sense why their public transparency has been lacking.
Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?
Software development is very complex (not just game, all S/W), and usually you do not know how far you are until just before the end. There are always S/W design challenges, unknowns and risks. Ask any S/W developer that worked on a large codebase and they will probably tell you the same. Experience can improve estimates but you can never have guarantees - especially when your stakeholders are as volatile as a group of gamers.
To me it would be enough transparency if a game offers constant access to its backers and no NDA, so that these backers (not the devs with their sugarcoated version) can share content of the progress of the game to the public. Which is why I tend to cut Crowfall more slack in this respect and why I feel that CU still having no 24h access and an NDA up while saying they are in beta for years now should be scorned. Pantheon sits somewhere in the middle of these two in terms of transparency in my eyes.
I'd put Pantheon behind CU actually, less actual testing as near as I can tell which of course is difficult as Pantheon's NDA restricts backers from saying they even are PA testers or are doing some actual testing.
CU let's most any level of backer into their tests and doesn't restrict them from saying they are testers or when they are taking place, which is usually public knowledge BTW, Mark's been pretty good about that at least.
The best of the bunch, CF, SC and DU who have all had persistent test envs for backers for a long while and after DUs beta goes live this month all three will no have NDAs on these envs.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wasn't the point of crowdfunded MMO's to be the transparency that THEY said big companies would not allow. Meanwhile we are debating/guessing whether the project is 20% or 70% done and wasn't that not supposed to happen because of that huge selling point for their KS campaigns >>> transparency.
Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?
I don't think Pantheon should scrap the project entirely like you suggest but maybe communicate a little better about where in the timeline they're actually at. If they say they are at 20% after all these years then maybe they do need some type of revamp of their priorities but if they are 50-70% probably just continue on as they are currently.
They are open and forward with the development and where it is. If you go to their official forums and read the announcement sections. There is a constant flow of updates. They are in Pre-Alpha 5 and not to far from Alpha, that means the core game is almost rdy for testing.
Same BS info tactic used by all of these Indies, flood users with tons of info of what has been done to date or is in progress.
What really matters is how much work remains and how long is it projected at this point to complete.
Well, that and the burn rates vs available and projected funds.....
Never going to see either from any of them.
On a project that takes say 8 years to finish, close is relative to the project itself. How long will Alpha phase be? Its not BS, this project is slower moving than most because of funding and the team size. If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last? Could be another year or more. In no way has VR hyped how fast they will have this project done. Again and again they have told us, small team, low funding. It will get here when it gets here.
Wasn't the point of crowdfunded MMO's to be the transparency that THEY said big companies would not allow. Meanwhile we are debating/guessing whether the project is 20% or 70% done and wasn't that not supposed to happen because of that huge selling point for their KS campaigns >>> transparency.
Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?
I don't think Pantheon should scrap the project entirely like you suggest but maybe communicate a little better about where in the timeline they're actually at. If they say they are at 20% after all these years then maybe they do need some type of revamp of their priorities but if they are 50-70% probably just continue on as they are currently.
They are open and forward with the development and where it is. If you go to their official forums and read the announcement sections. There is a constant flow of updates. They are in Pre-Alpha 5 and not to far from Alpha, that means the core game is almost rdy for testing.
Same BS info tactic used by all of these Indies, flood users with tons of info of what has been done to date or is in progress.
What really matters is how much work remains and how long is it projected at this point to complete.
Well, that and the burn rates vs available and projected funds.....
Never going to see either from any of them.
On a project that takes say 8 years to finish, close is relative to the project itself. How long will Alpha phase be? Its not BS, this project is slower moving than most because of funding and the team size. If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last? Could be another year or more. In no way has VR hyped how fast they will have this project done. Again and again they have told us, small team, low funding. It will get here when it gets here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Every KS MMO said when they wanted money that they would work with the community and the community would always know where they were in development. Look at Crowfall this past couple weeks just put the game into beta without much notice. No one has a clue where CU is in their development and SC has one galaxy done possibly?
Software development is very complex (not just game, all S/W), and usually you do not know how far you are until just before the end. There are always S/W design challenges, unknowns and risks. Ask any S/W developer that worked on a large codebase and they will probably tell you the same. Experience can improve estimates but you can never have guarantees - especially when your stakeholders are as volatile as a group of gamers.
To me it would be enough transparency if a game offers constant access to its backers and no NDA, so that these backers (not the devs with their sugarcoated version) can share content of the progress of the game to the public. Which is why I tend to cut Crowfall more slack in this respect and why I feel that CU still having no 24h access and an NDA up while saying they are in beta for years now should be scorned. Pantheon sits somewhere in the middle of these two in terms of transparency in my eyes.
I dont agree with you here, I believe its just very bad project management.
A story, in our company we hired someone to spend 60% of there time changing our training's from in person face to face, to an online/video/web system to lower expense and increase standardization as we were training in multiple states.
At first it looked like this person was doing a wonderful job, initial development was amazing, so many great ideas, a lot of content was almost complete early on, within 5 months things were looking great, it seemed it would be done within a few more months. But they were working on the entire project as a whole, nothing was actually completed. Fast forward 2 yrs and still the project was not done, they added more technology, everything seemed close to finished but nothing was finished. Now with the new ideas they wanted to implement it was looking to take at least another year to finish.
Long story, but we fired the person, brought in someone with a completion mindset, within a week they took the work the other person had, broke it down into segments and had the first segment done within a week. It was great, we immediately implemented it, then the next segment was done, within a couple of months the entire project was complete.
TLDR - What these devs need to do is start completing the project. Stop expanding all the zones and systems. As long as they have enough systems to have a good game then get it released without bugs. Then start immediately releasing DLC's to add additional zones and content through patches.
Most of these games, they keep lasting 8+ years because the devs dont know how to break the project down into smaller projects and complete them.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
So when they started pre-alpha you knew they were going to Pre Alpha 5? Gimme a break.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
So when they started pre-alpha you knew they were going to Pre Alpha 5? Gimme a break.
I have been following this game since the kickstarter. When Brad was running it, I love his games but I didnt trust him to run VR. After he stepped down and handing the company to the team running it now. As I watched them grow and change and start to make progress. As they told us their plans and kept producing results according to their plans. My confidence grew. So yes, I now trust that Pre-Alpha 5 will have at least 2 stages they will pull off. I also trust that when they say Alpha is next, I trust that as well. Will they make mistakes? They are human. All expectations need to be measured with reality. You have given me no reasons or facts that show me otherwise.
I am not saying they wont go to Alpha, Im saying I dont know what will happen because I have nothing to show me they are going to Alpha yet. All I seen was the latest public video, and to me the game is not in a playable state because the AI is non existent and I haven't seen any combat or boss mechanics yet, which I believe is core to this type of game.
You are an optimist who has been a fanboy of this project trying to blow off any criticism at all. Every game has them, if your right, then you say "see I knew it", if your wrong you will downplay being a fanboy and say you had a feeling it would fail but was hoping for the best.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
To be fair, your original quote from the devs said pre-alpha 5 was "ONE OF the final steps" not "THE final step" before alpha.
Your conclusion "that they are on the last step before they head to alpha" is not the word of the devs, but your interpretation of their words.
If you take their statement strictly at face value, it really doesn't say anything!
I am not saying they wont go to Alpha, Im saying I dont know what will happen because I have nothing to show me they are going to Alpha yet. All I seen was the latest public video, and to me the game is not in a playable state because the AI is non existent and I haven't seen any combat or boss mechanics yet, which I believe is core to this type of game.
You are an optimist who has been a fanboy of this project trying to blow off any criticism at all. Every game has them, if your right, then you say "see I knew it", if your wrong you will downplay being a fanboy and say you had a feeling it would fail but was hoping for the best.
They have shown off AI in more than one video and they have shown boss mechanics that also included the Atmosphere/Climate system as one of the mechanics in that fight that would affect casters. VR is just not done adding new AI types and bosses are not on there last pass though with mechanics. The more you say the more you show you dont know what you are talking about.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
So when they started pre-alpha you knew they were going to Pre Alpha 5? Gimme a break.
I have been following this game since the kickstarter. When Brad was running it, I love his games but I didnt trust him to run VR. After he stepped down and handing the company to the team running it now. As I watched them grow and change and start to make progress. As they told us their plans and kept producing results according to their plans. My confidence grew. So yes, I now trust that Pre-Alpha 5 will have at least 2 stages they will pull off. I also trust that when they say Alpha is next, I trust that as well. Will they make mistakes? They are human. All expectations need to be measured with reality. You have given me no reasons or facts that show me otherwise.
Look at that delivery date it says 2017. That was a delivery date of 3 years.
We are in 2020, when is the delivery date, surprise 2-3 years.
So according to the kickstarter they have made ZERO progress towards completion. They are exactly the same place they started. Its been 6 years and still at the exact same place.
What happens to this project if Joppa leaves for a new game? This game is nothing until its completed.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
So when they started pre-alpha you knew they were going to Pre Alpha 5? Gimme a break.
I have been following this game since the kickstarter. When Brad was running it, I love his games but I didnt trust him to run VR. After he stepped down and handing the company to the team running it now. As I watched them grow and change and start to make progress. As they told us their plans and kept producing results according to their plans. My confidence grew. So yes, I now trust that Pre-Alpha 5 will have at least 2 stages they will pull off. I also trust that when they say Alpha is next, I trust that as well. Will they make mistakes? They are human. All expectations need to be measured with reality. You have given me no reasons or facts that show me otherwise.
Look at that delivery date it says 2017. That was a delivery date of 3 years.
We are in 2020, when is the delivery date, surprise 2-3 years.
So according to the kickstarter they have made ZERO progress towards completion. They are exactly the same place they started. Its been 6 years and still at the exact same place.
What happens to this project if Joppa leaves for a new game? This game is nothing until its completed.
Ooo a kickstarter page that failed to get the funds they have asked for under different leadership. Do you even take in new information? Or are you stuck on a loop.
I wish the discussion would leave the whole 'Pre-Alpha 5' thing in the dustbin. Since there isn't real transparency in this project, no one knows what triggered the start of Pre-Alpha 5 and what triggers the end of it. It's safe to assume that there were some identified milestones that was achieved. There's no real knowledge about their specific project plan; the next major milestone might be Alpha 1, or it *might* be a Pre-Alpha 6 stage.
Since VR hasn't disclosed their exact project plan, there is no way of knowing where they are on their plan. The milestones/conditions to exit pre-alpha and enter alpha state may be the most costly and labor intensive pieces to the development project, or these may be easy, breezy steps that are a mere formality. There's no indication of how much work load is left to be done.
These labels of 'Pre-Alpha 5' smack of reactionary measures, not a planned approach to development. I think that these various 'Pre-Alpha' states were simply formulated to have something to tell the customers. I sincerely doubt that these stages were labeled 'Pre-Alpha' in their initial project management plan.
Now, if this label was added due to pressure to announce some status is anyone's guess.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
To be fair, your original quote from the devs said pre-alpha 5 was "ONE OF the final steps" not "THE final step" before alpha.
Your conclusion "that they are on the last step before they head to alpha" is not the word of the devs, but your interpretation of their words.
If you take their statement strictly at face value, it really doesn't say anything!
Yes because they said Pre-Alpha 5 was the last of the final steps before Alpha. Unless something drastic happens. Pre-Alpha 5 will be the last of the Pre-Alphas. "Last Steps" is because Pre-Alpha 5 has more than one stage to it. If all goes to plan, after Pre-Alpha 5 is Alpha.
This is a list of combat ideas they wanted to implement? How has the game implementing these? Its really hard to get behind all the new features when the core game is garbage. Imagine instead they had worked on the monster AI and combat mechanics and combat skill systems. If those were all done, then they wanted to add on some of these other systems like climbing, climate... it would seem like they were just adding to the detail of the game.
But as of now, this game is just a pile of parts that looks like garbage. Im still waiting for them to mold it into something. I have no evidence it will happen in my lifetime.
I wish the discussion would leave the whole 'Pre-Alpha 5' thing in the dustbin. Since there isn't real transparency in this project, no one knows what triggered the start of Pre-Alpha 5 and what triggers the end of it. It's safe to assume that there were some identified milestones that was achieved. There's no real knowledge about their specific project plan; the next major milestone might be Alpha 1, or it *might* be a Pre-Alpha 6 stage.
Since VR hasn't disclosed their exact project plan, there is no way of knowing where they are on their plan. The milestones/conditions to exit pre-alpha and enter alpha state may be the most costly and labor intensive pieces to the development project, or these may be easy, breezy steps that are a mere formality. There's no indication of how much work load is left to be done.
These labels of 'Pre-Alpha 5' smack of reactionary measures, not a planned approach to development. I think that these various 'Pre-Alpha' states were simply formulated to have something to tell the customers. I sincerely doubt that these stages were labeled 'Pre-Alpha' in their initial project management plan.
Now, if this label was added due to pressure to announce some status is anyone's guess.
It’s fair to say it wasn’t called Pre-Alpha, but there was always marketed “tester” access prior to alpha/beta. See Kickstarter Rewards:
Now whether they intended to have 5 or 30 pre-alphas is arguable, but they could have easily called it testing session 1, 2, 3 etc. as well. The nomenclature really doesn’t matter except Pre-Alpha probably being determined as more marketable.
I wish the discussion would leave the whole 'Pre-Alpha 5' thing in the dustbin. Since there isn't real transparency in this project, no one knows what triggered the start of Pre-Alpha 5 and what triggers the end of it. It's safe to assume that there were some identified milestones that was achieved. There's no real knowledge about their specific project plan; the next major milestone might be Alpha 1, or it *might* be a Pre-Alpha 6 stage.
Since VR hasn't disclosed their exact project plan, there is no way of knowing where they are on their plan. The milestones/conditions to exit pre-alpha and enter alpha state may be the most costly and labor intensive pieces to the development project, or these may be easy, breezy steps that are a mere formality. There's no indication of how much work load is left to be done.
These labels of 'Pre-Alpha 5' smack of reactionary measures, not a planned approach to development. I think that these various 'Pre-Alpha' states were simply formulated to have something to tell the customers. I sincerely doubt that these stages were labeled 'Pre-Alpha' in their initial project management plan.
Now, if this label was added due to pressure to announce some status is anyone's guess.
Although they didn't call it by the name "pre-alpha" at the time, they've always had this 3-phase testing approach since the beginning.
Here's a screen shot from their KS campaign, which if you notice the different reward tiers on the left includes: "Beta", "Alpha", and "Tester Access". Which Tester Access is now simply called Pre-Alpha for clarity, but it's still the same exact reward.
Nanfoodle said: If we see Alpha 1 start in the next 6-8 months. How long will the Alpha phase last?
You are completely out of touch with how development is progressing if you think there is even a slight chance alpha could start in the next 6 to 8 months...
Nope, I have been reading everything I can on Pantheon and Ashes of Creation, the only games I have backed.
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
I know your right as I follow Pantheon as well as I have a lot of money backed into the project. However, Pre-Alpha players have been waiting about a year and half for Pre-alpha 5. There is no saying they can not do the same in between PA 5 and Alpha 1.
Its why I said "if" If you read my post instead of the edited one above. My point is Alpha is next, its around the corner but there is still lots to do. Alpha 5 has at least 2 stages the devs have said will happen. Will they add more, who knows. IF they get alpha 5 done in the next 6-8 months? If they get it done in a year. We still have the question with a small team, how long will Alpha last? No less than a year Im sure. Could be longer but unlike the OP is saying, thats progression.
How can you even tell if its meaningful progression? Lets say that points represent completion and now they have 60 points of 100 complete which would be 60% complete. Then they move the goalpost with new ideas before release and now they want 1000 points to complete, now they are at 6% completion. They may actually be getting farther from release for all we know.
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
You have 2 places you can take this from. Are they experienced developers that know their product is ready for last stages before Alpha testing. OR: They dont know what they are doing or lying to us. You get to pick as a person. You have no proof they are lying. I see the progress they have made by the dozen or so hours of gameplay I have seen. Their detailed developer paths they have made all make sense. The game looks to be on track to what they have said. Call me an idiot if you like but I trust they are on the last step before they head to Alpha. Now would I take your word over the devs? LOL no!
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
To be fair, your original quote from the devs said pre-alpha 5 was "ONE OF the final steps" not "THE final step" before alpha.
Your conclusion "that they are on the last step before they head to alpha" is not the word of the devs, but your interpretation of their words.
If you take their statement strictly at face value, it really doesn't say anything!
Yes because they said Pre-Alpha 5 was the last of the final steps before Alpha. Unless something drastic happens. Pre-Alpha 5 will be the last of the Pre-Alphas. "Last Steps" is because Pre-Alpha 5 has more than one stage to it. If all goes to plan, after Pre-Alpha 5 is Alpha.
I didn't interpret it that way when I first heard it, but I can see what you mean. And for the sake of my eagerness to play, I really hope you're right!
Comments
CU let's most any level of backer into their tests and doesn't restrict them from saying they are testers or when they are taking place, which is usually public knowledge BTW, Mark's been pretty good about that at least.
The best of the bunch, CF, SC and DU who have all had persistent test envs for backers for a long while and after DUs beta goes live this month all three will no have NDAs on these envs.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont agree with you here, I believe its just very bad project management.
A story, in our company we hired someone to spend 60% of there time changing our training's from in person face to face, to an online/video/web system to lower expense and increase standardization as we were training in multiple states.
At first it looked like this person was doing a wonderful job, initial development was amazing, so many great ideas, a lot of content was almost complete early on, within 5 months things were looking great, it seemed it would be done within a few more months. But they were working on the entire project as a whole, nothing was actually completed. Fast forward 2 yrs and still the project was not done, they added more technology, everything seemed close to finished but nothing was finished. Now with the new ideas they wanted to implement it was looking to take at least another year to finish.
Long story, but we fired the person, brought in someone with a completion mindset, within a week they took the work the other person had, broke it down into segments and had the first segment done within a week. It was great, we immediately implemented it, then the next segment was done, within a couple of months the entire project was complete.
TLDR - What these devs need to do is start completing the project. Stop expanding all the zones and systems. As long as they have enough systems to have a good game then get it released without bugs. Then start immediately releasing DLC's to add additional zones and content through patches.
Most of these games, they keep lasting 8+ years because the devs dont know how to break the project down into smaller projects and complete them.
https://massivelyop.com/2020/08/07/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen-offers-dates-and-details-of-a-systems-test-ahead-of-pre-alpha/
QUOTE: "Pre-alpha 5 will also mark one of the final steps before the game goes into full alpha mode."
So these stages are basically meaningless without any context. Pre-Alpha 5 could end up extending to Pre-Alpha 30 for all we know.
EDIT: Also if they extend any time on any stage of development. I trust they are doing that for the best of the game.
You are an optimist who has been a fanboy of this project trying to blow off any criticism at all. Every game has them, if your right, then you say "see I knew it", if your wrong you will downplay being a fanboy and say you had a feeling it would fail but was hoping for the best.
Here let me show you this.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/description
Look at that delivery date it says 2017. That was a delivery date of 3 years.
We are in 2020, when is the delivery date, surprise 2-3 years.
So according to the kickstarter they have made ZERO progress towards completion. They are exactly the same place they started. Its been 6 years and still at the exact same place.
What happens to this project if Joppa leaves for a new game? This game is nothing until its completed.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/728944
This is a list of combat ideas they wanted to implement? How has the game implementing these? Its really hard to get behind all the new features when the core game is garbage. Imagine instead they had worked on the monster AI and combat mechanics and combat skill systems. If those were all done, then they wanted to add on some of these other systems like climbing, climate... it would seem like they were just adding to the detail of the game.
But as of now, this game is just a pile of parts that looks like garbage. Im still waiting for them to mold it into something. I have no evidence it will happen in my lifetime.
/Agreed with the rest of your post.
I didn't interpret it that way when I first heard it, but I can see what you mean. And for the sake of my eagerness to play, I really hope you're right!