Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.
Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs
Hmm, I prefer games that take time to figure out. I don't want a casual experience that anyone can figure out within a couple days. But hey, I've been gaming for about 25 years.
Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.
Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs
Hmm, I prefer games that take time to figure out. I don't want a casual experience that anyone can figure out within a couple days. But hey, I've been gaming for about 25 years.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.
Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs
You have a valid point, but is it one most players want?
Many MMOs do have much "to learn" at the start, especially for players new to the genre or gaming in general. Character creation alone has many players making uninformed decisions that may stay with them for quite awhile.
But I have to agree with Scot that this would a bad move for games in general. You have to look at your target audience and create for them. If your audience is "everyone", you're fighting a losing race.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
But basically you're only allowing people who can immediately grasp the concepts of the game to test it?
His explanation is a bit hard to follow.
Separate out the thoughts:
"Mom Test"
"make video games easier"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Alots of old classic games did the "mom test" too so i sure that you may once play some of those games too . yeah , if so you may did waste your time in crap lol .
It's a test to see if the game is user friendly enough for people to get in and nothing about the rich and quality of contents
That was a better explanation
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
In my experience if something is good, people would pay for it. The whole "easy to play, hard to master" motto seems like a winner, but we have had many titles which were hard to play, harder to master and people ate them up with a spoon.
Now regarding the test; it heavily depends on a person's patience and how they are generally reacting to new things. If you don't measure those factors in--which is impossible--then the whole test is absolutely meaningless.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Basically it is a test that you let people who don't into (or knowing about) video game test the game.
And if they can play the game without you even to tell them how to , then it is good.
Do you think this is a good test ? cause alots of games (specially MMO) are so complex with many unuse tabs
This was one of the things that I took a course on, for my job, it was about Intuitive Design and layout of buildings, so that people could transverse a building they have never been in before, as such key points are in the building should be intuitive, so that people are not ambling around, or needing to ask direction, etc, etc.
Examples of this, are often main entrances to buildings. These are built and designed into the building at it's construction, to be clearly noticeable, and intuitive to anyone seeking to enter the building. This is why, when a company opts to use an entrance that was not the one originally built into the structure, they need to put up those huge signs that say things like "Use other door" or "Entrance at Side" etc, etc. of course this is just bad design on their part to not use the main entrance which was designed and built to be intuitive for anyone looking to enter the building, but they did what they did, and instead now need to use huge signs, and give directions, that many will at first ignore, after all, how many of us feel we need direction on how to use the designed and designated front door of a building?
There are a few schools of thought on this one.
The First being: "How hard is it to read a sign?" which is one point, if someone puts directions up, why do so many refuse to read them? Of course, this makes things harder on their costumers, as now they are expecting people to do something that against the intrinsic design of the building.
The Second being "Why not just use the front door as the building?" The whole building was designed around that point of egress to be the front the door. Why not just use the intuitive nature of the building as your front door?
Finally, "If you are going to change where the front door is, change where the front door" and this is the idea that if for someone reason you can't or don't want to use to the originally designated front door, that you renovate the building, and design a new front door that is intuitive to use for their clients.
This applies to MMO's in the sense that layouts, designs, and how to play the game should be intuitive, easy to spot, and use. Now this has nothing to do with complexity, ability, or compacity, you can have very complex designs that are in their nature intuitive and easy to handle right from the get-go.
A great example of thins is GW2, where there is a lot going on, but all of it is pretty easy to find and fumble through without anyone holding your hand telling you where to go or what to look for. The buttons make sense, and you are never at a point where you feel that this button should do something, and nothing happens.
On the flip side of this, BDO, had a mount button on my Character sheet that looked like it should pull up my Mount Info, and it didn't. The info to get to my mount, was not clear, and the UI was just awkward to me, it didn't flow or feel smooth at all, it was like a huge clunky brick in what could have been an otherwise amazing game, and that really pulled from the fun of the game for me. If I have to fight with the UI just find out basic stuff, or look up basic stats, the design is bad.
Again, intuitive design has nothing to do with how complex the game can be, or how many features it can have, or anything else like that. It's about a feeling of being able to get in and play.
Just like intuitive building design has nothing to do with how big, complex, or vast a building can be, as it be applied to a shed, or to a multi billion dollar train station, with the idea being the same, to allow people know what is going on at a glance.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
A good game developer makes sure to introduce elements of the game organically over a period of time allowing players to comprehend the game instead of frontloading a huge quantity of information before you get to properly play the game.
I loved playing pillars of eternity but the way they handle the start of the game is atrocious. Just like its D&D predecessors it requires familiarity with a system from somewhere else which immediately eliminates lots of people from enjoying the game.
Compare that to something like dragon age origin, you make a choice of class but all other important decisions are made over time which allows players to jump into the game immediately.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
A good game developer makes sure to introduce elements of the game organically over a period of time allowing players to comprehend the game instead of frontloading a huge quantity of information before you get to properly play the game.
I loved playing pillars of eternity but the way they handle the start of the game is atrocious. Just like its D&D predecessors it requires familiarity with a system from somewhere else which immediately eliminates lots of people from enjoying the game.
Compare that to something like dragon age origin, you make a choice of class but all other important decisions are made over time which allows players to jump into the game immediately.
I had the same experience for Pillars of Eternity. I was lost as to what my character creation choices meant. It was "like" D&D, but not. I was lost and spent too much time on their wiki and never tried again.
Come to think of it, I need to do that again and give it another go
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Is it "elitist" to want a game to appeal to players with similar interests as me? I DON'T want a game that appeals to mobile, Candy Crush gamers. No thank you.
If that makes me an "elitist", so be it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I wouldn't say meaningless, a game being intuitive and easy to learn is generally a positive trait. Just not definitive - some gamers like figuring out complicated and obscure games if they are good like you pointed out.
I understand your point. But how can you actually measure that? Many other personal and characteristic traits influence their opinion.
You have to have an extremely large data sample to have a meaningful conclusion, which still would be less meaningful if you had surveyed from people who had previous experience.
And it all depends on who is going to be your target audience. If your potential costumers are casuals and hobbyists it is pointless to learn another group's opinion on the learning curve. It's like making a car and asking non drivers if it is a smooth ride or not.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I wouldn't say meaningless, a game being intuitive and easy to learn is generally a positive trait. Just not definitive - some gamers like figuring out complicated and obscure games if they are good like you pointed out.
I understand your point. But how can you actually measure that? Many other personal and characteristic traits influence their opinion.
You have to have an extremely large data sample to have a meaningful conclusion, which still would be less meaningful if you had surveyed from people who had previous experience.
And it all depends on who is going to be your target audience. If your potential costumers are casuals and hobbyists it is pointless to learn another group's opinion on the learning curve. It's like making a car and asking non drivers if it is a smooth ride or not.
I love this point to be honest.
I recall one of the points that was brought up regarding the Universal Design theory, and someone said that, what makes something intuitive is largely based on what they already know. IE: You can't expect someone to know how to intuitively use a can opener based on it's design, if they don't even know what a can is.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I wouldn't say meaningless, a game being intuitive and easy to learn is generally a positive trait. Just not definitive - some gamers like figuring out complicated and obscure games if they are good like you pointed out.
I understand your point. But how can you actually measure that? Many other personal and characteristic traits influence their opinion.
You have to have an extremely large data sample to have a meaningful conclusion, which still would be less meaningful if you had surveyed from people who had previous experience.
And it all depends on who is going to be your target audience. If your potential costumers are casuals and hobbyists it is pointless to learn another group's opinion on the learning curve. It's like making a car and asking non drivers if it is a smooth ride or not.
I love this point to be honest.
I recall one of the points that was brought up regarding the Universal Design theory, and someone said that, what makes something intuitive is largely based on what they already know. IE: You can't expect someone to know how to intuitively use a can opener based on it's design, if they don't even know what a can is.
Familiarity is key, hence the controller test. Everyone who plays games knows how to use the controller interface.
The problem is that "the mom test" would force games to be very simple.
My mom is smart and would be able to figure out how to play some pretty complicated games if she wanted to. The problem is that she's not interested in games substantially more complicated than Spider Solitaire or Candy Crush.
I have found that people need only 3 choices "at a time". More than that and you are asking for trouble. Less than that you are asking for trouble.
3 is the magic number and while there are exceptions to all rules i think you need to use the rule of 3 to appeal to the most players possible while maintaining the depth you want for your game. So design everything around a three choice system and you will get the most bang for your buck, so to speak.
Even simple games like Solitaire, Minesweeper, or Candy Crush commonly give you a lot more than three choices at a time.
I have found that people need only 3 choices "at a time". More than that and you are asking for trouble. Less than that you are asking for trouble.
3 is the magic number and while there are exceptions to all rules i think you need to use the rule of 3 to appeal to the most players possible while maintaining the depth you want for your game. So design everything around a three choice system and you will get the most bang for your buck, so to speak.
Even simple games like Solitaire, Minesweeper, or Candy Crush commonly give you a lot more than three choices at a time.
I have found that people need only 3 choices "at a time". More than that and you are asking for trouble. Less than that you are asking for trouble.
3 is the magic number and while there are exceptions to all rules i think you need to use the rule of 3 to appeal to the most players possible while maintaining the depth you want for your game. So design everything around a three choice system and you will get the most bang for your buck, so to speak.
Even simple games like Solitaire, Minesweeper, or Candy Crush commonly give you a lot more than three choices at a time.
3 examples eh? why not 10?
Tetris, chess, backgammon, checkers.
He used 3 examples, not 1 or 7 because 3 is the most efficient way to get his point across whether he realizes it or not.
Things can still be complex but it is important to keep them intuitive and majority of the time games with complex systems fail at this with terrible HUDs and UIs.
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
This is recipe for turning the gaming community into morons. Would a chess club, a football club, a climbing club or a card games club etc think it a good idea to see how good its game was by seeing if people could play it without instruction?
Bu it has already happened, as the former CEO of EA John Riccitiello said when he joined the company "I want to make games that your mum could play!". That went down well with the shareholders which is what so much of gaming is about these days.
It is already to late for that. If you want to see it in action just look at EverQuest project 1999 than progression servers. Swg pre cu and cu vs nge. Load up star wars that new one fallen order, it's so easy you could chew on the mouse and smack your face off the keyboard and win. Diablo 2 vs 3. Mario 1 2 3 vs cat mario.
People can't handle hard games, and it's not just difficult games because the complex game mechanic like swg , or ryzom either. Take heroes of the storm a very simple game, and I see people failing so bad and stumbling on basic concepts it makes some games unplayable.
Another example of how unpopular complex games are take distant worlds it is super complex well I didn't think so, but the majority did. Game compared to stellairs is super unpopular, and stellaris is a direct copy of distant worlds with dumbed down game concepts.
Then take the older games like dungeons and dragons online, project 1999, swg pre cu and cu, the majority need a for dummies book written on it to figure out how to play them. I remember one guy I played dnd online with threw a huge baby fit because I we were all grouped trying to figure the quest out by our selves, and he died. Started raving about how I should of spent hours watching the youtube video haha.
The average gamer has no ability to play a game, can't handle any difficult concepts, and or game play, more importantly they can't handle loss at all. Which is why you can't sell say original mario with perm death and start over. When I played starbound I literally found 0 players but me out off the then 100kish players to play a hard core server, meaning when you died u started over. They all cheated.
Which is why all modern games too me are garbage and I don't play them. Eso is so easy again chew on the mouse and smack your face on the keyboard your gonna win. Even if you fall down you just instant respawn. Vs ryzom where the majority and I mean like 99 percent of the mmorpg community wouldn't even be able to figure any of it out by them selves with out a guide. You have to make your own abilities, and if you mess up you are punished .
So that age is dead. They sit down and go hmm make a fun complex game and sell maybe 10000 copies, or make a game so simple you can throw your keyboard at the wall and dance on it and win selling a million.
People aren't taught to think for themselves. The idea that we can't steam roll content and have to spend more than a day learning is dumb to to many.
The problem is the majority of games aren't just dumbing down, they are just going a PVP route (Battle Royale, Team based, etc) on top of that. Even the rogue likes suffer from this problem. Their whole genre is built on continually improving after a death. Make it so far and you can unlock something to go further.
The mom test is inherently stupid. Why would you take a non-gamer and try to sell them a game? It isn't going to work and just dumb down your games for the masses. To many people can't figure out anything else other than more stats, which is why most games have "gear scores" and higher always means better and other mods don't get used because they require a bit of thinking.
I'll be honest, I stopped looking at video games to be hard. They make good board games that require strategies to win and honestly if given a choice between playing a PC game (D2 right now is my go to) and Wingspan/Terraforming Mars/Lords of Waterdeep with a few friends, I'm choosing the board games everytime.
mmo's are so dumb now, its so sad. I blame raiding. The first thing that happens with raiding: step 1 dps is king, step 2 crowd control becomes useless, step 3 apply to the rest of the game.
Now we have games where basically the only things that matter are your dps which is sad because everquest has a lot of hidden gems that few noticed but it just wasnt supported once it devolved into raid or die.
Comments
So a Karen?
You'll fit right in.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It can, if the design is good.
Simplicity does not equal fun.
It can, if the design is good.
That's my take on the pattern....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
So?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That was a better explanation
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Now regarding the test; it heavily depends on a person's patience and how they are generally reacting to new things. If you don't measure those factors in--which is impossible--then the whole test is absolutely meaningless.
Examples of this, are often main entrances to buildings. These are built and designed into the building at it's construction, to be clearly noticeable, and intuitive to anyone seeking to enter the building. This is why, when a company opts to use an entrance that was not the one originally built into the structure, they need to put up those huge signs that say things like "Use other door" or "Entrance at Side" etc, etc. of course this is just bad design on their part to not use the main entrance which was designed and built to be intuitive for anyone looking to enter the building, but they did what they did, and instead now need to use huge signs, and give directions, that many will at first ignore, after all, how many of us feel we need direction on how to use the designed and designated front door of a building?
There are a few schools of thought on this one.
The First being: "How hard is it to read a sign?" which is one point, if someone puts directions up, why do so many refuse to read them? Of course, this makes things harder on their costumers, as now they are expecting people to do something that against the intrinsic design of the building.
The Second being "Why not just use the front door as the building?" The whole building was designed around that point of egress to be the front the door. Why not just use the intuitive nature of the building as your front door?
Finally, "If you are going to change where the front door is, change where the front door" and this is the idea that if for someone reason you can't or don't want to use to the originally designated front door, that you renovate the building, and design a new front door that is intuitive to use for their clients.
This applies to MMO's in the sense that layouts, designs, and how to play the game should be intuitive, easy to spot, and use. Now this has nothing to do with complexity, ability, or compacity, you can have very complex designs that are in their nature intuitive and easy to handle right from the get-go.
A great example of thins is GW2, where there is a lot going on, but all of it is pretty easy to find and fumble through without anyone holding your hand telling you where to go or what to look for. The buttons make sense, and you are never at a point where you feel that this button should do something, and nothing happens.
On the flip side of this, BDO, had a mount button on my Character sheet that looked like it should pull up my Mount Info, and it didn't. The info to get to my mount, was not clear, and the UI was just awkward to me, it didn't flow or feel smooth at all, it was like a huge clunky brick in what could have been an otherwise amazing game, and that really pulled from the fun of the game for me. If I have to fight with the UI just find out basic stuff, or look up basic stats, the design is bad.
Again, intuitive design has nothing to do with how complex the game can be, or how many features it can have, or anything else like that. It's about a feeling of being able to get in and play.
Just like intuitive building design has nothing to do with how big, complex, or vast a building can be, as it be applied to a shed, or to a multi billion dollar train station, with the idea being the same, to allow people know what is going on at a glance.
A good game developer makes sure to introduce elements of the game organically over a period of time allowing players to comprehend the game instead of frontloading a huge quantity of information before you get to properly play the game.
I loved playing pillars of eternity but the way they handle the start of the game is atrocious. Just like its D&D predecessors it requires familiarity with a system from somewhere else which immediately eliminates lots of people from enjoying the game.
Compare that to something like dragon age origin, you make a choice of class but all other important decisions are made over time which allows players to jump into the game immediately.
A: Convoluted means depth
B. Accessibility means dumbed down
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You have to have an extremely large data sample to have a meaningful conclusion, which still would be less meaningful if you had surveyed from people who had previous experience.
And it all depends on who is going to be your target audience. If your potential costumers are casuals and hobbyists it is pointless to learn another group's opinion on the learning curve. It's like making a car and asking non drivers if it is a smooth ride or not.
I recall one of the points that was brought up regarding the Universal Design theory, and someone said that, what makes something intuitive is largely based on what they already know. IE: You can't expect someone to know how to intuitively use a can opener based on it's design, if they don't even know what a can is.
My mom is smart and would be able to figure out how to play some pretty complicated games if she wanted to. The problem is that she's not interested in games substantially more complicated than Spider Solitaire or Candy Crush.
some things just are.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
The problem is the majority of games aren't just dumbing down, they are just going a PVP route (Battle Royale, Team based, etc) on top of that. Even the rogue likes suffer from this problem. Their whole genre is built on continually improving after a death. Make it so far and you can unlock something to go further.
The mom test is inherently stupid. Why would you take a non-gamer and try to sell them a game? It isn't going to work and just dumb down your games for the masses. To many people can't figure out anything else other than more stats, which is why most games have "gear scores" and higher always means better and other mods don't get used because they require a bit of thinking.
I'll be honest, I stopped looking at video games to be hard. They make good board games that require strategies to win and honestly if given a choice between playing a PC game (D2 right now is my go to) and Wingspan/Terraforming Mars/Lords of Waterdeep with a few friends, I'm choosing the board games everytime.
Now we have games where basically the only things that matter are your dps which is sad because everquest has a lot of hidden gems that few noticed but it just wasnt supported once it devolved into raid or die.