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Despite Steams 'Ban' on NFT and Crypto Games, Some Blockchain MMO Titles Still Available | MMORPG.co

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  • DattelisDattelis Member EpicPosts: 1,675
    edited January 2022
    From my understand of this Mir4 game, it seems the way they 'worked around' the nft ban is to disable the crypto exchange part through the steam client, but it seems you can still engage in it via the game's mobile app. So I guess that's why steam is allowing it to remain. Talk about a grey area.
    bcbullymaskedweaselKyleranlaserit[Deleted User]
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    Dattelis said:
    From my understand of this Mir4 game, it seems the way they 'worked around' the nft ban is to disable the crypto exchange part through the steam client, but it seems you can still engage in it via the game's mobile app. So I guess that's why steam is allowing it to remain. Talk about a grey area.
    If this is the case explains why it is permitted to remain on Steam and shows the value of doing just a bit of investigation, thanks for sharing.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Kyleran said:
    Dattelis said:
    From my understand of this Mir4 game, it seems the way they 'worked around' the nft ban is to disable the crypto exchange part through the steam client, but it seems you can still engage in it via the game's mobile app. So I guess that's why steam is allowing it to remain. Talk about a grey area.
    If this is the case explains why it is permitted to remain on Steam and shows the value of doing just a bit of investigation, thanks for sharing.
    What about crypto space commanders lol
    maskedweasel
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,195
    bcbully said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dattelis said:
    From my understand of this Mir4 game, it seems the way they 'worked around' the nft ban is to disable the crypto exchange part through the steam client, but it seems you can still engage in it via the game's mobile app. So I guess that's why steam is allowing it to remain. Talk about a grey area.
    If this is the case explains why it is permitted to remain on Steam and shows the value of doing just a bit of investigation, thanks for sharing.
    What about crypto space commanders lol
    Agreed. And I don't even know if it's true since it seems you earn darksteel through playing most game modes so if you can't mint it, that wouldn't make sense to earn it. 

    Then what, you'd need two separate clients? If this is a loophole to keep the games in steam, just force minting, buying or selling from a different source, technically it would still be against the terms of service. Since the game is a blockchain game and it still allows those things even if they somehow disabled it on the steam client. 

    And if they did. Why does it say it's a blockchain game in the eula? A lot of weird stuff there. 

    I doubt steam will ever comment on it either. They'll probably do what they always do and just pretend like it's not happening.

    I wouldn't be surprised if one day they'll come out with their own NFTs and tell people the blockchain games that never left the service were some kind of test. 

    They can say whatever they want publicly but Valve tried to do their own asset sales at some point and failed, and I know if they could have attached those to NFTs at the time, to make them successful they would have. They are likely trying to find a way to capitalize on it, but until then they'll let others in the industry take the heat. 
    bcbully



  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    Kyleran said:

    Which begs the question, for anyone who's played a newer block chain, crypto or NFT centric game do they permit account trading  and selling via their markets or is it more for the in game objects and NFTs themselves?
    Crypto/Blockchain games use crypto wallets to hold the assets. Sure, you can buy/sell/trade wallets.... but the secret key can never be changed. Once someone has the key, they can use/control the wallet forever. This makes makes buying/sell/trading of wallets a dead end for anyone that understands this.

    Most crypto/nft/blockchain games use either (or) crypto/nft for the game. Those can be traded between wallets... so there is no need to compromise the wallet.
    [Deleted User]Kyleran
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,057
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.

    [Deleted User][Deleted User]

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Kyleran said:

    Which begs the question, for anyone who's played a newer block chain, crypto or NFT centric game do they permit account trading  and selling via their markets or is it more for the in game objects and NFTs themselves?
    Crypto/Blockchain games use crypto wallets to hold the assets. Sure, you can buy/sell/trade wallets.... but the secret key can never be changed. Once someone has the key, they can use/control the wallet forever. This makes makes buying/sell/trading of wallets a dead end for anyone that understands this.

    Most crypto/nft/blockchain games use either (or) crypto/nft for the game. Those can be traded between wallets... so there is no need to compromise the wallet.
    I just don’t understand the appeal in this. It’s so dangerous to the user.

    Heck we’ve had so many problems with compromised accounts before money was involved.

    This just seems like a nightmare.

     Imho

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    olepi said:
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.

    4.6k ETH. Yet another example of why you don't keep your crypto on exchanges. Not your keys. Not your crypto.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    olepi said:
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.

    No worries, I'm sure the Crypto Monetary Authority will reimburse any lost coin.

    ;)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Just to let you know bcbully.

    My residential real estate holdings value has pretty much doubled or better over the last 4 years.

     If the bottom fell out tomorrow l’d still be a wealthy man with my holdings.
    [Deleted User]KyleranScot

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Torval said:
    olepi said:
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.


    I saw this on Hacker News a day or so ago. I just laughed because all the "pros" of the platform just got tossed out the window with that hack.

    How many times have we seen game accounts get "hacked" (or compromised for whatever reasons). Well, there goes all your crypto. That's why "Ethereum" originally made the hard from from what is not called "Ethereum Classic" because once a token is moved to another wallet there isn't anything anyone can do, but a hard fork, to return it. It's just lost and gone. The same will be true for people who have their NFTs scammed or stolen. They can't be returned.
    Ethereum was never hacked... A DAO smart contract was hacked back in 2016. The distinction must be made. The ETC hard fork happened because some wanted to give it back, and other said no. The ETC side said no. In hindsight they were correct, yet and still ETC has all but failed.

    When it comes to personal wallets, you wouldn't give your bank account number to a random someone would you? How about your credit card number? Unfortunately people do. Thus the billions in fraud every year. Same goes for your personal wallet. There are no hacks of personal crypto wallets. One way or the other someone gives out there keys.
    [Deleted User]eoloe
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Kyleran said:
    olepi said:
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.

    No worries, I'm sure the Crypto Monetary Authority will reimburse any lost coin.

    ;)
    Crypto.com will. They had custody. They will reimburse. No government needed. 
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    laserit said:
    Just to let you know bcbully.

    My residential real estate holdings value has pretty much doubled or better over the last 4 years.

     If the bottom fell out tomorrow l’d still be a wealthy man with my holdings.
    Always a good move to buy some land when you can.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Torval said:
    bcbully said:
    Torval said:
    olepi said:
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.


    I saw this on Hacker News a day or so ago. I just laughed because all the "pros" of the platform just got tossed out the window with that hack.

    How many times have we seen game accounts get "hacked" (or compromised for whatever reasons). Well, there goes all your crypto. That's why "Ethereum" originally made the hard from from what is not called "Ethereum Classic" because once a token is moved to another wallet there isn't anything anyone can do, but a hard fork, to return it. It's just lost and gone. The same will be true for people who have their NFTs scammed or stolen. They can't be returned.
    Ethereum was never hacked... A DAO smart contract was hacked back in 2016. The distinction must be made. The ETC hard fork happened because some wanted to give it back, and other said no. The ETC side said no. In hindsight they were correct, yet and still ETC has all but failed.

    When it comes to personal wallets, you wouldn't give your bank account number to a random someone would you? How about your credit card number? Unfortunately people do. Thus the billions in fraud every year. Same goes for your personal wallet. There are no hacks of personal crypto wallets. One way or the other someone gives out there keys.

    To be precise the smart contract of The DAO for Ethereum Classic was exploited due to vulnerabilities and approximately $50M in Ethereum was stolen.

    The main point being that could not be returned. Ledger transactions are immutable so what the Ethereum stakeholders decided was to fork the blockchain and issue those tokens back to the original users. They did this not out of the goodness of their hearts but because if they didn't do so their entire blockchain would have collapsed in an uproar. Even so this direct manipulation and violation of decentralization still caused an uproar in the community.

    This was not akin to divulging a bank account to a rando. This was the system operating as expected being exploited and then centrally manipulated to restore its functionality.

    The instances where people are going to get scammed and have their tokens stolen is going to be similar or socially engineered within the game. There is nothing the developers of the game can do to restore the stolen tokens because of the inherent properties of a blockchain. They could ban the offending account and close the wallet associated with stolen tokens, but those tokens are now lost forever.

    The very act of taking punitive action on an account and wallet violates the nature of decentralization. This is happening with improperly issued NFTs right now.

    What I'm saying is this entire system is rife for social and technical exploitation with little recourse for victims. When I give my credit card or bank account number to a service I am protected from fraud by the issuing organization. I make sure my accounts are protected in this way. There are no such protections for users of crypto games.
    "The DAO was a decentralized autonomous organization (DAO) that was launched in 2016 on the Ethereum blockchain. After raising $150 million USD worth of ether (ETH) through a token sale, The DAO was hacked due to vulnerabilities in its code base. The Ethereum blockchain was eventually hard forked to restore the stolen funds, but not all parties agreed with this decision, which resulted in the network splitting into two distinct blockchains: Ethereum and Ethereum Classic." 

    Again the distinction must be made. Someone wrote exploitable code on Ethereum, a public blockchain that anyone can write on and that contract was hacked. Ethereum was not hacked.

    For the record people have wrote exploitable code 100s of times over since then. For perspective Crypto.com hack was just about the same size, which 100% they will reimburse. What came after, the question of rolling back the chain, which the Ethereum foundation chose to do, which resulted in the 2 chains (ETC not rolled back, ETH rolling back.) is where I agree with you being wrong just as the majority of people do today. 

    If the game developers security is not tight, and they are using a centralized closed chain, yes they can be hacked. There only recourse will to be reimburse or shut down the game. If the developer uses a public chain where players control their wallets. Security, ie not giving out keys will be solely on the player. 

    The protection for users of crypto games, and centralized exchanges is tied directly to the success of those games and exchanges. This is why w/o any government oversight at all exchanges reimburse their clients.

    It can be argued that because of this. These organizations run a much tighter ship. There will be no government intervention to save them from risky investment, hacks, and oversight. No tax payers to bail them out. If banks were forced to operate the same, I can  guarantee you fraud would fall precipitously. 

    maskedweaselKyleraneoloe
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,195
    Torval said:
    bcbully said:
    Torval said:
    olepi said:
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.


    I saw this on Hacker News a day or so ago. I just laughed because all the "pros" of the platform just got tossed out the window with that hack.

    How many times have we seen game accounts get "hacked" (or compromised for whatever reasons). Well, there goes all your crypto. That's why "Ethereum" originally made the hard from from what is not called "Ethereum Classic" because once a token is moved to another wallet there isn't anything anyone can do, but a hard fork, to return it. It's just lost and gone. The same will be true for people who have their NFTs scammed or stolen. They can't be returned.
    Ethereum was never hacked... A DAO smart contract was hacked back in 2016. The distinction must be made. The ETC hard fork happened because some wanted to give it back, and other said no. The ETC side said no. In hindsight they were correct, yet and still ETC has all but failed.

    When it comes to personal wallets, you wouldn't give your bank account number to a random someone would you? How about your credit card number? Unfortunately people do. Thus the billions in fraud every year. Same goes for your personal wallet. There are no hacks of personal crypto wallets. One way or the other someone gives out there keys.

    To be precise the smart contract of The DAO for Ethereum Classic was exploited due to vulnerabilities and approximately $50M in Ethereum was stolen.

    The main point being that could not be returned. Ledger transactions are immutable so what the Ethereum stakeholders decided was to fork the blockchain and issue those tokens back to the original users. They did this not out of the goodness of their hearts but because if they didn't do so their entire blockchain would have collapsed in an uproar. Even so this direct manipulation and violation of decentralization still caused an uproar in the community.

    This was not akin to divulging a bank account to a rando. This was the system operating as expected being exploited and then centrally manipulated to restore its functionality.

    The instances where people are going to get scammed and have their tokens stolen is going to be similar or socially engineered within the game. There is nothing the developers of the game can do to restore the stolen tokens because of the inherent properties of a blockchain. They could ban the offending account and close the wallet associated with stolen tokens, but those tokens are now lost forever.

    The very act of taking punitive action on an account and wallet violates the nature of decentralization. This is happening with improperly issued NFTs right now.

    What I'm saying is this entire system is rife for social and technical exploitation with little recourse for victims. When I give my credit card or bank account number to a service I am protected from fraud by the issuing organization. I make sure my accounts are protected in this way. There are no such protections for users of crypto games.
    That's not necessarily true. There's a lot that developers can do when it comes to stolen items in blockchain games. It just depends on the system they decide to use. Not all crypto is decentralized, games specifically don't have to be, at least to run a lot of their functions. That also means that they could completely prohibit or change something in the off chance they had to. 

    It also means that there's a good chance that stolen assets would be rendered worthless if the developers chose to mark the tokens. Even in cases where something is decentralized, if it gets proven as stolen and is no longer usable, and the hash is marked as invalid, so it can't be posted on 3rd party markets or used within a game, there would be no value to it, and no reason to really steal it.  Some developers double down on this by employing their own proprietary markets, so they can essentially control what gets listed, and what gets transferred. Technically in the right circumstances nothing is really barred, and honestly if someones account got compromised, the assets are only part of the problem, because depending on how they obtained them, it wouldn't even matter if they give back your assets, you couldn't use the account anymore if you screwed up and gave them your seed phrase. 

    But if developers can just decide to ban the accounts and assets from play, or even go so far as to change a blockchain if it's centralized, why even have it? I guess the answer would be, they're probably looking for interoperability with other mainnet features. 

    Who knows what could happen in the future in terms of security and resolving stolen assets. FIguring out what is possible and how companies plan to handle stuff like this before you get into a game should be pretty important if it's something you're worried about. 
    bcbullyeoloe



  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    I'm glad this forum has so many people knowledgeable about this stuff, otherwise I wouldn't have a clue like most others I know.

    Makes me seem like a one eyed man in the land of the blind.

    ;)
    bcbully[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • eoloeeoloe Member RarePosts: 864
    laserit said:
    bcbully said:
    laserit said:
    What the heck do we call prostitution?

    Seems that P2E suits it much better than it does video games.
    Getting f'd over working a job you hate.
    Well…

    just like NFT’s I guess it depends on what side of the fucked your on ;)

    Who said that the receiver can not indulge it?
    bcbully
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Torval said:
    So, if a game decides not to use decentralized blockchain then no one really owns things anyway because the central source controls the entire chain. There goes one of the big arguments people keep throwing out to try and sell others on this money making scheme.

    An NFT, for example, tied to a token cannot be removed from another wallet by a central authority on a blockchain. The NFT and token can be invalidated but it can't be externally manipulated out of the holding wallet. If someone thinks that can happen I'd like to see how, because the only way "illegal" NFTs are taken down is by removing access to the asset and link itself. That doesn't remove it from the holding token though. The entire purpose of a blockchain is to prevent that very thing. And that is true for any asset tied to a blockchain token.
    Bingo Troval. In another recent thread, after NBA Topshots block a guys account i said -

    "On the not so funny side and pertaining to NFTs. This is an example of the dangers of NFTs on closed networks. Idc what it is, if it's not minted on Ethereum and uploaded in to IPFS I'm very skeptical. Marvel and VeVe is a similar platform. 
    https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/01/12/nba-top-shot-bans-user-freehongkong/

    in addition - This is a pressure point that MUST be addressed when dealing with P2E games made by legacy publishers. If the NFTs earned are not on a public blockchain the exact same thing NBA Top Shots did can happen to gamers. 

    Each of these legacy publisher NFT offerings need to be examined on a case by case basis and distinction needs to be drawn. "

    It was actually a quote of one of your posts. 

    The central authority of a centralized chain holds the master keys so to speak. The can do what ever they want. For example VISA is building it's own chain on Ethereum. On that sidechain VISA will be able to revert, cancel, push through, block, w/e they want. They hold the keys to thier side chain they've built. 

    On the opposite side of things in games like Zed Run, The Red Village, Decentraland and many others built on top of decentralized chains, once a transaction is made it's final. No reverting matches, not changing races, no taking back sales. The trade off for having finality on these chains is  the onus of security and due diligence/ making sure this is the transaction you want falls on the player 100%. 
    maskedweasel
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,057
    Kyleran said:
    I'm glad this forum has so many people knowledgeable about this stuff, otherwise I wouldn't have a clue like most others I know.

    Makes me seem like a one eyed man in the land of the blind.

    ;)

    Ya, me too. I'll just wait a year or two to see who survives, and then follow them.
    Kyleran

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 927
    edited January 2022
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Sometimes we need fantasy to survive reality 
    https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
    Beyond the shadows there's always light
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Deathkon1 said:
    Crypto scam anthem



    Soon their will be more crypto and nft's then actual games 
    Actually there's probably been more "crypto and NFTs" than games for quite some time, you know.

    There's more doge than games.. there's more shiba inu than games. More Cardano etc.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Kyleran said:
    NFT/Blockchain/Crypto == Games I will NEVER spend money on. I vote with my $$$.
    Yeah yeah, many in the past claimed they would never play a FTP / cash shop game, including myself, yet here I am getting ready to play Lost Ark, (probably even buy a pre-order pack and monthly sub) having played POE, and several others previously. 

    Trick is to only pay for what you find value in, ignoring all the rest which will be my approach on games which contain NFTs or crypto, assuming of course they are actually fun games and not just virtual market places to trade such items.

    Odds are good that in the long run NFTs in particular will be included in almost all newer games or retrofitted into existing ones.  

    Most developers today already provide the opportunity (take advantage of) gamers by utilizing multiple monitization models so it's a rare day to find an online game which is purely B2P, sub only or totally F2P, they almost always utilize at least a couple to maximize their earnings. 

    Welcome to Lost Ark <3

    Most things are bad. I mean imagine if you were to watch all movies, then you would have hated cinema, well, probably even life itself. I look at Steam shop and I think to myself, wow, such effort for this ocean of garbage. But that's the thing. Most things need to be bad so those rare things become good.

    So yeah, NFTs and P2E will be the same. I might not care about the earning part. But I would probably play a game when it is good. I will probably like my NFTs, too. 

    And if people ever wanted to take a moral stance on such things, pay a visit to the factories that make the things you own and use everyday. 
    bcbully
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    edited January 2022
    Torval said:
    bcbully said:
    Torval said:
    olepi said:
    Meanwhile, Crypto.com has suspended activities because they were hacked and somebody made off with some ETH.

    "I messaged yah guys hours ago about my account having 4.28ETH stolen out of nowhere and I’m also wondering how they got passed the 2FA?” Baller wrote in the tweet.


    I saw this on Hacker News a day or so ago. I just laughed because all the "pros" of the platform just got tossed out the window with that hack.

    How many times have we seen game accounts get "hacked" (or compromised for whatever reasons). Well, there goes all your crypto. That's why "Ethereum" originally made the hard from from what is not called "Ethereum Classic" because once a token is moved to another wallet there isn't anything anyone can do, but a hard fork, to return it. It's just lost and gone. The same will be true for people who have their NFTs scammed or stolen. They can't be returned.
    Ethereum was never hacked... A DAO smart contract was hacked back in 2016. The distinction must be made. The ETC hard fork happened because some wanted to give it back, and other said no. The ETC side said no. In hindsight they were correct, yet and still ETC has all but failed.

    When it comes to personal wallets, you wouldn't give your bank account number to a random someone would you? How about your credit card number? Unfortunately people do. Thus the billions in fraud every year. Same goes for your personal wallet. There are no hacks of personal crypto wallets. One way or the other someone gives out there keys.



    What I'm saying is this entire system is rife for social and technical exploitation with little recourse for victims. When I give my credit card or bank account number to a service I am protected from fraud by the issuing organization. I make sure my accounts are protected in this way. There are no such protections for users of crypto games.
    Idk man things are wild out here. very different. I can list 10 reason why, and even after this, I'd still have trouble believing those 10 reasons. Make of it what you will. 
     
  • fineflufffinefluff Member RarePosts: 561
    There will never be a good game built around nft.
    maskedweasel
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Kyleran said:
    I'm glad this forum has so many people knowledgeable about this stuff, otherwise I wouldn't have a clue like most others I know.

    Makes me seem like a one eyed man in the land of the blind.

    ;)
    I'm just winging it myself ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

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