That kinda misses part of the point of discussing the problems and how it impacts not just the game in question, but whole genres of games and gaming as a whole.
"Don't play it." solves for a minor part of the equation in the short term. Given that mindset, it implies that one is not part of the audience the game is made for. IE, the ones they can monetize.
What does that mean for the game? Well, that it's no real loss on the game's part. What does it mean for the franchise? Well, that we may end doing the same "then don't play the game" bit when D4 rolls around.
Will that stop Blizzard? Again, probably not. Because if Immortal's overly aggressive monetization works for Blizz, then the next step for them is to ask what more they can do.back on
I dunno, other game publishers have walked back on their more predatory monetization models after a public groundswell of outrage happened, even when D3 had a public auction, so hey, could happen again.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That kinda misses part of the point of discussing the problems and how it impacts not just the game in question, but whole genres of games and gaming as a whole.
"Don't play it." solves for a minor part of the equation in the short term. Given that mindset, it implies that one is not part of the audience the game is made for. IE, the ones they can monetize.
What does that mean for the game? Well, that it's no real loss on the game's part. What does it mean for the franchise? Well, that we may end doing the same "then don't play the game" bit when D4 rolls around.
Will that stop Blizzard? Again, probably not. Because if Immortal's overly aggressive monetization works for Blizz, then the next step for them is to ask what more they can do.back on
I dunno, other game publishers have walked back on their more predatory monetization models after a public groundswell of outrage happened, even when D3 had a public auction, so hey, could happen again.
Sure, after public outrage caught enough attention.
Bit different from just not playing and hoping for the best the next time around.
That kinda misses part of the point of discussing the problems and how it impacts not just the game in question, but whole genres of games and gaming as a whole.
"Don't play it." solves for a minor part of the equation in the short term. Given that mindset, it implies that one is not part of the audience the game is made for. IE, the ones they can monetize.
What does that mean for the game? Well, that it's no real loss on the game's part. What does it mean for the franchise? Well, that we may end doing the same "then don't play the game" bit when D4 rolls around.
Will that stop Blizzard? Again, probably not. Because if Immortal's overly aggressive monetization works for Blizz, then the next step for them is to ask what more they can do.back on
I dunno, other game publishers have walked back on their more predatory monetization models after a public groundswell of outrage happened, even when D3 had a public auction, so hey, could happen again.
That is kind of the point of the critical discussions here and elsewhere, I think.
Creating a groundswell of critique for the monetization to discourage it.
We're seeing the dawn of games built for the rich that are also made so the poor (that's anyone who can't spend hundreds per week) can access.
Dawn? I'd say this has been going on so long the clock is at high noon.
Or 5 minutes to midnight, depending on how one looks at it.
I think I understand your point and agree, however here is the distinction I had in mind when I posted that.
Historically games as a service have been made that allowed rich people to gain advantage. Now games are being made with those people in mind as the target demographic. The "F2P" player who spends no money and the person who spends $50 - $100 are essentially the same. Now we'll have to see if this is the odd deal out or it becomes the norm.
We're already seeing single player and online limited coop games adopt microtransactions and "in-game purchases". Will the design of these too be further influenced by the continual evolution of revenue generation?
In my opinion it's a bit naive to say that ignoring the monetization doesn't stop the wheel of progress from moving forward and increasingly affect how games are designed. I'm not shaming anyone here because like I've said before I'll play whatever I want, how I want, with whomever I want, but I do think that engaging in these games even if we don't pay (or spend responsibly). We contribute to their popularity and are the content for the rich.
The writing was probably on the wall whenever we signaled the willingness to let them charge us monthly to play a game. At that point it became a game of "How can we start charging more?" and it's been progressing for 2 and a half decades since.
I can see why subscriptions were a step on from box price and might have raised the "how can we charge more" question. But MMORPG's were games we were playing while expecting them to get small "dlc like" updates until a new expansion came out. I think it was the concept of the cash shop itself which opened the door to everything else we have seen and led to GaaS, gambling and now P2E.
Fully agree with you that participating in exploitative games helps perpetuate them, if only the whales had been in PC DI from launch we would be hearing rather different news stories. You mentioned single player and co-op, no genre, no platform has or will escape the ever increasing evolution of revenue generation. The words "video game or gamers" are now bywords for cash cows that can be milked at every opportunity.
I dunno… I was paying by the minute for online games before a monthly sub came. So from my perspective a sub was a far more customer friendly model.
It certainly was compared to AOL, Compuserve and others.
In the beginning of popular MMOs, I never saw subs so much as a game access thing but more as an online service thing.
Got to remember that this whole thing started before the Internet blew up and became what it is today. Back in the dial-up days, premium online services of any sort were almost always done as pay for time.
MMO monthly subs just didn't seem unusual to me at all back in those days - just seemed like another premium online service but much, much cheaper than the norm which was still pay by the minute or the hour. Monthly uncapped access? Where do I sign up?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I dunno… I was paying by the minute for online games before a monthly sub came. So from my perspective a sub was a far more customer friendly model.
I couldn't afford to play online games when we paid by the minute / hour.
I was thrilled to sign up for unlimited access to Lineage 1 for no more than one hour of GENIE access. (at daytime rates)
In the 3 or so months I've been playing Lost Ark I've been whaling it a bit, spent about $140 so far counting my Platinum pack, two months of Crystaline Aura, and last night I bought the Battle pass totally to avoid having to wait a week to save up the materials to move my alt to Punika.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dunno… I was paying by the minute for online games before a monthly sub came. So from my perspective a sub was a far more customer friendly model.
I couldn't afford to play online games when we paid by the minute / hour.
I was thrilled to sign up for unlimited access to Lineage 1 for no more than one hour of GENIE access. (at daytime rates)
In the 3 or so months I've been playing Lost Ark I've been whaling it a bit, spent about $140 so far counting my Platinum pack, two months of Crystaline Aura, and last night I bought the Battle pass totally to avoid having to wait a week to save up the materials to move my alt to Punika.
Gambling is addictive, that's what they were counting on when they designed the monetization. Is there a community of players between free and whales though, that's a question we have yet to answer and in may depend on each game? As an amphibian with far better all round vision than me once said "Its a trap!".
I dunno… I was paying by the minute for online games before a monthly sub came. So from my perspective a sub was a far more customer friendly model.
I couldn't afford to play online games when we paid by the minute / hour.
I was thrilled to sign up for unlimited access to Lineage 1 for no more than one hour of GENIE access. (at daytime rates)
In the 3 or so months I've been playing Lost Ark I've been whaling it a bit, spent about $140 so far counting my Platinum pack, two months of Crystaline Aura, and last night I bought the Battle pass totally to avoid having to wait a week to save up the materials to move my alt to Punika.
Kyleran is part of the problem. I knew it.
And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for these meddling kids!
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"Historically games as a service have been made that allowed rich people to gain advantage. "
Can't agree with this one. My first bunch of online games, ie DAOC, Ryzom, Vanguard, City of Heroes, Pirates of he Burning Sea, and LoTRO did not have any mechanism where being rich had any effect on the game.
You bought the game, paid the $15/month sub, and got the entire game. No cash shops, no loot boxes, no monetization of any kind. Those came later.
I dunno… I was paying by the minute for online games before a monthly sub came. So from my perspective a sub was a far more customer friendly model.
I couldn't afford to play online games when we paid by the minute / hour.
I was thrilled to sign up for unlimited access to Lineage 1 for no more than one hour of GENIE access. (at daytime rates)
In the 3 or so months I've been playing Lost Ark I've been whaling it a bit, spent about $140 so far counting my Platinum pack, two months of Crystaline Aura, and last night I bought the Battle pass totally to avoid having to wait a week to save up the materials to move my alt to Punika.
Gambling is addictive, that's what they were counting on when they designed the monetization. Is there a community of players between free and whales though, that's a question we have yet to answer and in may depend on each game? As an amphibian with far better all round vision than me once said "Its a trap!".
There are "minnows" who pay a low amount "dolphins" who tend to pay a mid/averaged amount.
Think I would also qualify that beyond gambling, there is an excessive monetization of convenience through engineered inconvenience.
Like using that battle pass to get materials to transfer one's alt.
Even beyond the monetization, it's kind of a drag that everything about this game is just 'okay'. I was hoping for Blizzard to exceed peoples' expectations with this one after the catastrophically bad anouncement on par with the Xbox One. It was so exactly what i thought it would be gameplay-wise.
If you think the monetization is so awful, then don't play the game. I'm not playing it. It's really not that hard to find some other game to play. There are literally many thousands of other games out there.
Or just play the part you're enjoying without paying a cent. The thought of the developers investing thousands of hours in such a game, just to see people like me playing it 100% free, AND the whales paying for my fun... it's deliciously ironic to me.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
"Historically games as a service have been made that allowed rich people to gain advantage. "
Can't agree with this one. My first bunch of online games, ie DAOC, Ryzom, Vanguard, City of Heroes, Pirates of he Burning Sea, and LoTRO did not have any mechanism where being rich had any effect on the game.
You bought the game, paid the $15/month sub, and got the entire game. No cash shops, no loot boxes, no monetization of any kind. Those came later.
Except ALL those games were invaded by illegal gold sellers. And that predates even DAoC, that was already in UO, along with leveling services and other stuff. The only difference between then and now is that now, it's "legal".
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
"Historically games as a service have been made that allowed rich people to gain advantage. "
Can't agree with this one. My first bunch of online games, ie DAOC, Ryzom, Vanguard, City of Heroes, Pirates of he Burning Sea, and LoTRO did not have any mechanism where being rich had any effect on the game.
You bought the game, paid the $15/month sub, and got the entire game. No cash shops, no loot boxes, no monetization of any kind. Those came later.
Except ALL those games were invaded by illegal gold sellers. And that predates even DAoC, that was already in UO, along with leveling services and other stuff. The only difference between then and now is that now, it's "legal".
That's an oversimplification to the point of being wrong.
Being illegal and risking a ban is not, at all, the same as devs actively encouraging the mentality and purchase. Even more: building a game with those "services" in mind.
Except ALL those games were invaded by illegal gold sellers. And that predates even DAoC, that was already in UO, along with leveling services and other stuff. The only difference between then and now is that now, it's "legal".
The important difference is that when it's shady and "illegal" (wasn't really - just against the TOS ) not many do it but when it's officially supported and encouraged many do it and that's a game changer... literally.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
"Historically games as a service have been made that allowed rich people to gain advantage. "
Can't agree with this one. My first bunch of online games, ie DAOC, Ryzom, Vanguard, City of Heroes, Pirates of he Burning Sea, and LoTRO did not have any mechanism where being rich had any effect on the game.
You bought the game, paid the $15/month sub, and got the entire game. No cash shops, no loot boxes, no monetization of any kind. Those came later.
Except ALL those games were invaded by illegal gold sellers. And that predates even DAoC, that was already in UO, along with leveling services and other stuff. The only difference between then and now is that now, it's "legal".
Yes, all of those games were invaded by gold sellers who spammed the chat channels and were almost universally hated. There used to be a big effort to get rid of them, turn them in, get them banned, etc. They RUINED the game for many.
Now the games themselves have that built in, and much much more. And for many of us, that RUINS the game just like it did back then.
It does seem to me that for some players the only important issue for them is they get to play a game for free, nothing else matters. Mind you, once playing they do like to make suggestions about how the game needs to invest in improvements so their free time is spent more enjoyably.
"Historically games as a service have been made that allowed rich people to gain advantage. "
Can't agree with this one. My first bunch of online games, ie DAOC, Ryzom, Vanguard, City of Heroes, Pirates of he Burning Sea, and LoTRO did not have any mechanism where being rich had any effect on the game.
You bought the game, paid the $15/month sub, and got the entire game. No cash shops, no loot boxes, no monetization of any kind. Those came later.
Except ALL those games were invaded by illegal gold sellers. And that predates even DAoC, that was already in UO, along with leveling services and other stuff. The only difference between then and now is that now, it's "legal".
That's an oversimplification to the point of being wrong.
Being illegal and risking a ban is not, at all, the same as devs actively encouraging the mentality and purchase. Even more: building a game with those "services" in mind.
Yup...today we have the games DESIGNED around the RMT... Huge difference
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It does seem to me that for some players the only important issue for them is they get to play a gagme for free, nothing else matters. Mind you, once playing they do like to make suggestions about how the game needs to invest in improvements so their free time is spent more enjoyably.
This is true, and always has been (think, piracy).
There are also those who appreciate a lower cost of entry, but are willing to pay once they have experience what's on offer. Sometimes what is paid is more than an average box price would have been (see Kyleran's example).
Some pay without out care. "Entertainment is cheap" folks. (These are often the people comparing playing games to going to the movies, drinking at the pub or steak dinners, in my experience). Dropping 10 or 20 bucks a week on a favorite game is no biggie.
Then you have those who have disposable income most of us can only dream of. These are the ones keeping most of these game afloat for the rest of us. Also, these are the ones that developers are catering to more and more.(Epeen flexing seems to be a primary motivation here)
There are probably other categories as well because gaming is not, nor ever has been one-size-fits-all.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
It does seem to me that for some players the only important issue for them is they get to play a game for free, nothing else matters. Mind you, once playing they do like to make suggestions about how the game needs to invest in improvements so their free time is spent more enjoyably.
Must be those inferior players you are implying in many of your posts lately. Hopefully they are still having some fun...
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Bit different from just not playing and hoping for the best the next time around.
Creating a groundswell of critique for the monetization to discourage it.
Fully agree with you that participating in exploitative games helps perpetuate them, if only the whales had been in PC DI from launch we would be hearing rather different news stories. You mentioned single player and co-op, no genre, no platform has or will escape the ever increasing evolution of revenue generation. The words "video game or gamers" are now bywords for cash cows that can be milked at every opportunity.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In the beginning of popular MMOs, I never saw subs so much as a game access thing but more as an online service thing.
Got to remember that this whole thing started before the Internet blew up and became what it is today. Back in the dial-up days, premium online services of any sort were almost always done as pay for time.
MMO monthly subs just didn't seem unusual to me at all back in those days - just seemed like another premium online service but much, much cheaper than the norm which was still pay by the minute or the hour. Monthly uncapped access? Where do I sign up?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I was thrilled to sign up for unlimited access to Lineage 1 for no more than one hour of GENIE access. (at daytime rates)
In the 3 or so months I've been playing Lost Ark I've been whaling it a bit, spent about $140 so far counting my Platinum pack, two months of Crystaline Aura, and last night I bought the Battle pass totally to avoid having to wait a week to save up the materials to move my alt to Punika.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Think I would also qualify that beyond gambling, there is an excessive monetization of convenience through engineered inconvenience.
Like using that battle pass to get materials to transfer one's alt.
Or just play the part you're enjoying without paying a cent.
The thought of the developers investing thousands of hours in such a game, just to see people like me playing it 100% free, AND the whales paying for my fun... it's deliciously ironic to me.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Except ALL those games were invaded by illegal gold sellers. And that predates even DAoC, that was already in UO, along with leveling services and other stuff.
The only difference between then and now is that now, it's "legal".
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Being illegal and risking a ban is not, at all, the same as devs actively encouraging the mentality and purchase. Even more: building a game with those "services" in mind.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Huge difference
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
There are also those who appreciate a lower cost of entry, but are willing to pay once they have experience what's on offer. Sometimes what is paid is more than an average box price would have been (see Kyleran's example).
Some pay without out care. "Entertainment is cheap" folks. (These are often the people comparing playing games to going to the movies, drinking at the pub or steak dinners, in my experience). Dropping 10 or 20 bucks a week on a favorite game is no biggie.
Then you have those who have disposable income most of us can only dream of. These are the ones keeping most of these game afloat for the rest of us. Also, these are the ones that developers are catering to more and more.(Epeen flexing seems to be a primary motivation here)
There are probably other categories as well because gaming is not, nor ever has been one-size-fits-all.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Must be those inferior players you are implying in many of your posts lately.
Hopefully they are still having some fun...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023