Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
If people didn't want new content. Then why don't they save the trouble of creating new zones and mechanics and just add new shiny loot to all the old dungeons for every expansion? Then according to you everyone would be happy because they can all get their new shiny loot and never have to learn new mechanics. Seems much more economical.
Its pretty obvious, people want new everything. New loot, new dungeons, new mechanics. The same thing gets boring.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
If people didn't want new content. Then why don't they save the trouble of creating new zones and mechanics and just add new shiny loot to all the old dungeons for every expansion? Then according to you everyone would be happy because they can all get their new shiny loot and never have to learn new mechanics. Seems much more economical.
Its pretty obvious, people want new everything. New loot, new dungeons, new mechanics. The same thing gets boring.
Ungood is just trying to catch you in a pedantic technicality with the "re-learn" qualification.
The presented argument he's leaning into seems to be more about "people don't like change". There is some merit to that, but not exactly in the way Ungood is applying it.
Of course you're going to annoy people by taking away something and replacing it, but that's not going to annoy the people who have already mastered it and moved on as much as those that are still in the process of learning it.
We've even had updates to raid mechanics in the past that spurred hardcore raiding guilds to be the first to beat and document the changes and new strategies for them, which is a demonstration of embracing the challenge rather than denying it.
Something the previous DDO bard raid example seems to misunderstand. The fact that knowing the raid will fail for mechanical reasons outside the player's control, due to imbalanced game dynamics, means challenge isn't even part of the equation. There could be some fun to see how far one can go, but the knowledge of hard roadblocks that are defined by missing necessary function because of the chosen class, that means you've hit a point where one's knowledge and skill does not matter. IE, it's not a challenge, it's a dead-end.
The only reason those runs are fun are for the self-admitted reasons of people knowing it's pointless and just messing around as a crew.
That's not going to appeal to people seeking challenge.
Same cycling back to this current point. Not only does changing an existing dungeon present less of a issue for those that have mastered it's challenge, it's also again a hyperbolic argument that has to avoid the fact it's not an all or nothing state of being.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
If people didn't want new content. Then why don't they save the trouble of creating new zones and mechanics and just add new shiny loot to all the old dungeons for every expansion? Then according to you everyone would be happy because they can all get their new shiny loot and never have to learn new mechanics. Seems much more economical.
Its pretty obvious, people want new everything. New loot, new dungeons, new mechanics. The same thing gets boring.
Again, this is not about New Content, but I love that you are deflecting like a mutherfukker.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
If people didn't want new content. Then why don't they save the trouble of creating new zones and mechanics and just add new shiny loot to all the old dungeons for every expansion? Then according to you everyone would be happy because they can all get their new shiny loot and never have to learn new mechanics. Seems much more economical.
Its pretty obvious, people want new everything. New loot, new dungeons, new mechanics. The same thing gets boring.
I love the deflection..
So I am just going to stand by what I said, and you are no exception to this absolute.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
As always, been fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
And that only leaves the obvious counterpoint to be repeated that "relearning a raid" is a hyperbolic argument that not only does not reflect how changes to raids affect players, but also fails to reflect that reality is not a binary state where something like a raid needs to completely change in order to provide even variable challenges from one run to the next.
Really, this is such a petty and dishonest argument.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
I wish you good fortune in finding it.
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
I wish you good fortune in finding it.
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Will do.
Edit: Ugh! Nice game but I'm looking for something like an advanced UO, with fixes to the rampant Player abuses UO had. Basically, a deep, rich Sandbox with a "realistic" touch, in a medium Fantasy setting.
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
I wish you good fortune in finding it.
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Will do.
Edit: Ugh! Nice game but I'm looking for something like an advanced UO, with fixes to the rampant Player abuses UO had. Basically, a deep, rich Sandbox with a "realistic" touch, in a medium Fantasy setting.
You might get a bit of the sandbox with Boundless, but not gonna be too deep on that part either.
It works on instanced world spaces you visit to pillage and sometimes build a base at, and those spaces just reset after some time unless you've expressly built on an area. The world spaces themselves as a result are fixed and you repeat the same loops with 'em, and there's not much depth to the gameplay when it comes to combat with little in the way of boss type mobs.
It's kind of a prime example of rinse and repeat gameplay.
Definitely not on the mark for visuals if ya want even semi-realism.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
I wish you good fortune in finding it.
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Will do.
Edit: Ugh! Nice game but I'm looking for something like an advanced UO, with fixes to the rampant Player abuses UO had. Basically, a deep, rich Sandbox with a "realistic" touch, in a medium Fantasy setting.
Life is Feudal was supposed to offer that, I don't know anything about the game itself, never played it, but might be something to check out.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
I wish you good fortune in finding it.
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Will do.
Edit: Ugh! Nice game but I'm looking for something like an advanced UO, with fixes to the rampant Player abuses UO had. Basically, a deep, rich Sandbox with a "realistic" touch, in a medium Fantasy setting.
You might get a bit of the sandbox with Boundless, but not gonna be too deep on that part either.
It works on instanced world spaces you visit to pillage and sometimes build a base at, and those spaces just reset after some time unless you've expressly built on an area. The world spaces themselves as a result are fixed and you repeat the same loops with 'em, and there's not much depth to the gameplay when it comes to combat with little in the way of boss type mobs.
It's kind of a prime example of rinse and repeat gameplay.
Definitely not on the mark for visuals if ya want even semi-realism.
Thanks for the info. I'll pass. Maybe they'll find a following elsewhere.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
I wish you good fortune in finding it.
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Will do.
Edit: Ugh! Nice game but I'm looking for something like an advanced UO, with fixes to the rampant Player abuses UO had. Basically, a deep, rich Sandbox with a "realistic" touch, in a medium Fantasy setting.
Life is Feudal was supposed to offer that, I don't know anything about the game itself, never played it, but might be something to check out.
I was always semi-interested in Life is Feudal, but they don't have magic or fantasy. But my impression is that they made a good game, although I never got into it enough to know for sure.
I'm not the "Gamer" that most of you are. I am only interested in a specific kind of game. The game I'm interested in is the dream that I've had since way back in my D&D days, from discussions we used to have about how such a game would play out. Having a "world", and how that would work, was probably the foundation for my desire for a Sandbox game.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
Why would you want to re-do Raids with the same old ANYTHING? Maybe a few times, but that get boring. Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
I wish you good fortune in finding it.
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Will do.
Edit: Ugh! Nice game but I'm looking for something like an advanced UO, with fixes to the rampant Player abuses UO had. Basically, a deep, rich Sandbox with a "realistic" touch, in a medium Fantasy setting.
Life is Feudal was supposed to offer that, I don't know anything about the game itself, never played it, but might be something to check out.
I was always semi-interested in Life is Feudal, but they don't have magic or fantasy. But my impression is that they made a good game, although I never got into it enough to know for sure.
I'm not the "Gamer" that most of you are. I am only interested in a specific kind of game. The game I'm interested in is the dream that I've had since way back in my D&D days, from discussions we used to have about how such a game would play out. Having a "world", and how that would work, was probably the foundation for my desire for a Sandbox game.
I think we have a common point here. I wish there would be a game so alive that it would play by itself. And that players would just be additions to the game!
BDO is supposed to be a sandbox. But it is more like a beautiful wax museum. The NPCs are stuck in the same stance forever. I believe the closest thing to a living world is X4. I never played it, but I've heard they have some kind of on going NPC faction war. Meaning that the NPCs would play against each other? Again I never play the game. I am not sure. But if this is the case, this is a step in the right direction. However this is a single player game set in space, and I am also looking for a fantasy world.... alive.
I think we have a common point here. I wish there would be a game so alive that it would play by itself. And that players would just be additions to the game!
Concept sounds cool actually. There was a time, where it felt we were on the edge of such a world. Now it seems all the games are on the rails, not immersive at all, completely scripted. Maybe someday a game world like that will exist, doubt I will ever see it. I bet whoever makes a game like that will make bankroll.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I wish there would be a game so alive that it would play by itself. And that players would just be additions to the game!
Didn't ShadowBane try this, and it failed spectacularly.
Also, GW2 tried this to a lesser extent as well, with Living World, and that also failed pretty hard as well.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I wish there would be a game so alive that it would play by itself. And that players would just be additions to the game!
Didn't ShadowBane try this, and it failed spectacularly.
Also, GW2 tried this to a lesser extent as well, with Living World, and that also failed pretty hard as well.
UO had it in mind, to an extent. But their problem was that the players overran it and ruined the concept. There are problems with the idea, but it could be done. At the expense of a LOT of extra code and extra world size, which isn't usually (<- Read as Never) in the budget.
Still, it would be really cool. The best we'll ever see, I expect, is a simulation in only some ways.
I wish there would be a game so alive that it would play by itself. And that players would just be additions to the game!
Didn't ShadowBane try this, and it failed spectacularly.
Also, GW2 tried this to a lesser extent as well, with Living World, and that also failed pretty hard as well.
Never played Shadowbane. I don't know.
But GW2 is still far from that. The living story is ... a story. And the dynamic event system in GW2 is interesting, has some perks in it (no need of grouping, very organic and approachable) however this is nothing but a slightly complex event loop.
If BDO is a wax museum, then GW2 is almost the same never-ending day (with slight changes).
NPCs and mobs do not have needs nor goals nor life nor death. They are functional standing poles that are indestructible or that respawn constantly.
I wish there would be a game so alive that it would play by itself. And that players would just be additions to the game!
Didn't ShadowBane try this, and it failed spectacularly.
Also, GW2 tried this to a lesser extent as well, with Living World, and that also failed pretty hard as well.
Never played Shadowbane. I don't know.
But GW2 is still far from that. The living story is ... a story. And the dynamic event system in GW2 is interesting, has some perks in it (no need of grouping, very organic and approachable) however this is nothing but a slightly complex event loop.
If BDO is a wax museum, then GW2 is almost the same never-ending day (with slight changes).
NPCs and mobs do not have needs nor goals nor life nor death. They are functional standing poles that are indestructible or that respawn constantly.
Nahh, remember back when it was "Living World". The events affected the entire game world, and everyone was dragged into it, if they liked it or not, and they even blew up Lions Arch, and had to rebuild it.
They later they changed to "Living Story" and it became very instance based and personal.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Big problem with GW2's living world was how much it was a half-measure that required regular sweeping content changes by the devs in an otherwise static game world.
They designed a mechanic that was pretty unsustainable, and it served as the only moving component in a game world where everything else was always just there. Big part of why it was moved into more traditional update content and operated more like the rest of the quest content.
Even in it's heyday, Living Story/World was not particularly dynamic as a result though. It's beholden entirely to what the devs design and push, with no emergent mechanics or community interaction to shape it outside of any measure the devs acquiesce to suggestions/complaints.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
I think some people would like that, or that there be at least some variety in them. I imagine playing through what is largely the same over and over would get tedious in time once a raid was mastered.
It wasn't a raid, but when I played DCUO there was a Two-Face mission I particularly enjoyed as it had multiple paths.
At certain points you would run into him and his coin toss determined which of two paths would open for you. It only happened a few times during the mission but it was still more interesting than the carbon copy repeating most missions was, and it was well suited the villain's nature making it thematically pleasing as well.
Comments
Its pretty obvious, people want new everything. New loot, new dungeons, new mechanics. The same thing gets boring.
The presented argument he's leaning into seems to be more about "people don't like change". There is some merit to that, but not exactly in the way Ungood is applying it.
Of course you're going to annoy people by taking away something and replacing it, but that's not going to annoy the people who have already mastered it and moved on as much as those that are still in the process of learning it.
We've even had updates to raid mechanics in the past that spurred hardcore raiding guilds to be the first to beat and document the changes and new strategies for them, which is a demonstration of embracing the challenge rather than denying it.
Something the previous DDO bard raid example seems to misunderstand. The fact that knowing the raid will fail for mechanical reasons outside the player's control, due to imbalanced game dynamics, means challenge isn't even part of the equation. There could be some fun to see how far one can go, but the knowledge of hard roadblocks that are defined by missing necessary function because of the chosen class, that means you've hit a point where one's knowledge and skill does not matter. IE, it's not a challenge, it's a dead-end.
The only reason those runs are fun are for the self-admitted reasons of people knowing it's pointless and just messing around as a crew.
That's not going to appeal to people seeking challenge.
Same cycling back to this current point. Not only does changing an existing dungeon present less of a issue for those that have mastered it's challenge, it's also again a hyperbolic argument that has to avoid the fact it's not an all or nothing state of being.
So I am just going to stand by what I said, and you are no exception to this absolute.
Really, this is such a petty and dishonest argument.
Especially in games that don't offer you much else to do than "rinse and repeat."
That's the reason I am looking for a different kind of game world.
Once upon a time....
I heard Boundless was pretty awesome in that regard, might want to check it out.
Edit: Ugh! Nice game but I'm looking for something like an advanced UO, with fixes to the rampant Player abuses UO had.
Basically, a deep, rich Sandbox with a "realistic" touch, in a medium Fantasy setting.
Once upon a time....
It works on instanced world spaces you visit to pillage and sometimes build a base at, and those spaces just reset after some time unless you've expressly built on an area. The world spaces themselves as a result are fixed and you repeat the same loops with 'em, and there's not much depth to the gameplay when it comes to combat with little in the way of boss type mobs.
It's kind of a prime example of rinse and repeat gameplay.
Definitely not on the mark for visuals if ya want even semi-realism.
Once upon a time....
But my impression is that they made a good game, although I never got into it enough to know for sure.
I'm not the "Gamer" that most of you are. I am only interested in a specific kind of game.
The game I'm interested in is the dream that I've had since way back in my D&D days, from discussions we used to have about how such a game would play out.
Having a "world", and how that would work, was probably the foundation for my desire for a Sandbox game.
Once upon a time....
I believe the closest thing to a living world is X4. I never played it, but I've heard they have some kind of on going NPC faction war. Meaning that the NPCs would play against each other? Again I never play the game. I am not sure. But if this is the case, this is a step in the right direction.
However this is a single player game set in space, and I am also looking for a fantasy world.... alive.
Concept sounds cool actually. There was a time, where it felt we were on the edge of such a world. Now it seems all the games are on the rails, not immersive at all, completely scripted. Maybe someday a game world like that will exist, doubt I will ever see it. I bet whoever makes a game like that will make bankroll.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Also, GW2 tried this to a lesser extent as well, with Living World, and that also failed pretty hard as well.
There are problems with the idea, but it could be done. At the expense of a LOT of extra code and extra world size, which isn't usually (<- Read as Never) in the budget.
Still, it would be really cool.
The best we'll ever see, I expect, is a simulation in only some ways.
Once upon a time....
Never played Shadowbane. I don't know.
But GW2 is still far from that. The living story is ... a story. And the dynamic event system in GW2 is interesting, has some perks in it (no need of grouping, very organic and approachable) however this is nothing but a slightly complex event loop.
If BDO is a wax museum, then GW2 is almost the same never-ending day (with slight changes).
They later they changed to "Living Story" and it became very instance based and personal.
They designed a mechanic that was pretty unsustainable, and it served as the only moving component in a game world where everything else was always just there. Big part of why it was moved into more traditional update content and operated more like the rest of the quest content.
Even in it's heyday, Living Story/World was not particularly dynamic as a result though. It's beholden entirely to what the devs design and push, with no emergent mechanics or community interaction to shape it outside of any measure the devs acquiesce to suggestions/complaints.
The challenge is feigning interest and enjoyment so that the children you're playing with think you like it as much as they do.
It wasn't a raid, but when I played DCUO there was a Two-Face mission I particularly enjoyed as it had multiple paths.
At certain points you would run into him and his coin toss determined which of two paths would open for you. It only happened a few times during the mission but it was still more interesting than the carbon copy repeating most missions was, and it was well suited the villain's nature making it thematically pleasing as well.
That sounds like a game thats too hard for me.