Anyone that has watched combat sports, like Boxing, UFC, Etc, knows that the shorter the fight, the more superior one of the contestants were, with the reverse also holding true, where the more evenly matched the competitors are, the longer they will duel.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
In real-life combat sports most of the attacks don't do anything at all because they get blocked or evaded. They aren't a good comparison to MMOs where even the badly losing party does damage with most of his attacks.
MMO combat, especially in PvE environment, is usually more like a running competition where all runners continuously cover distance (do damage), and the winner is whoever covers the required distance (does enough damage to deplete opponent's HP bar) first.
Even in a Racing, its pretty clear early on who is going to win, with very few exceptions. Even in horse racing, the winner normally runs wire to wire, with minor standouts like the famous Seabiscuit, and Secretariat, which were such phenomena that they had movies made about them.
Also, I guess this might be MMO dependent, but using GW2 and DDO, a whole part of combat on those MMO's, is in fact mitigating the risk of damage, either by evasion, deflection, self healing, or other means.
In fact, being able to mitigate damage or lessen it's risk, is in fact what could be the dividing factor between what make one opponent far superior to another, even if they are both able to do the same DPS. This is why, PvP and PvE are really not in the same ballpark, and also why, I firmly believe that most players really don't want AI level tactically thinking PvE opponents.
This is why a lot of MMO's substitute tactical ability of a mob with just more HP to simulate Challenge.
But getting back to doing damage, in a conflict, the ability to defeat an opponent, by whatever means I have, is a mark of skill, as such, your character doing damaging does not necessarily mean you put your opponent at risk, or that there was a chance you were going to win simple because their life bar ticked down, it simply means you did some damage, but that is not the same as being a threat.
A Treat is something that has the risk to kill me.
To use a real world example. If you stabbed me in the arm with a spork, it will hurt, I will bleed, it will have done noticeable damage to me. If then I proceeded to beat you to a bloody pulp with a tire iron for stabbing me in the arm with a Spork, understand that under no circumstances or situations was that damage done by that spork stab a legitimate indication that you had the chance to win the fight.
The same logic holds true in MMO, just because you damaged something, or someone, does not mean you had a chance in hell of winning.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I remember that just being a run in circles wit my bomb kit thing back then for my engi.
With my guardian, it was more of a group activity since I built them for supporting roles.
It highlights the flaw though, as GW2 relied and still relies heavily on regular mobs being relatively finite in their function. They melee, range, and do some status effects. The biggest thing with Orr was the mobs hobbling you and status draining your health, which is mostly absolved with the likes of AED for engi or symbol of swiftness + line of warding on guardian.
That's the fundamental of the game broadly, but it's more so that it's rare for general mobs to leverage hard counter abilities. Most the time you're again looking at vet or more so champion mobs who will actually trigger specific defensive states or use counters like reflecting attacks back temporarily. A lot of the even larger mobs/bosses end up being more about zone control and eating away at people with status effects.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
Seahawks didn't get dubbed "heart-attack hawks" without cause.
It's also a consideration of pacing. As long as a football game's production/run time is, bit less than half of that is ever actually time spent playing. It's additionally broken up quite a bit with breaks so athletes can get a breather or rethink their strategy. The amount of time spent per-play is pretty small.
A football game isn't one endless brawl as a result, it has ups and downs. And it's the moment to moment plays which lead to the immediate gains/victories, that then compound towards overall victory. Same principle applies to the boxing and UFC examples.
If you're taking timeouts in the middle of a fight, then something has been artificially extended/altered about the way the fights are conducted. This is why a street fight can be over in a minute when a UFC fight takes fifteen on average.
I say it frequently when talking about challenge, "adapting". That's an important element of what makes a challenge. Presenting scenarios where you are faced with a problem that makes you change your approach, learn something new, refine your build and skill options, etc.
This again does not mandate that things become dragged out slogs. Challenge itself, and conflict, is not inherently bound to being drawn out experiences unless one is to speak of those adapted for viewership. And that's not going to be a perfect translation either, as what engages a spectator is not going to necessarily be what engages an active participant
It's where, when a game does present a challenge, it can be valued for giving players something to puzzle their way through. Unfortunately many games are pretty self-sabotaging.
GW2 can demonstrate that pretty well in the point of how it's mitigation and abilities work. As much as mitigation is a thing, so is everyone running around with 30-60k hp and using the same looping rotation versus most every mob. An anecdotal example here would actually be how I was able to use my engi's golem and it's finite set of usable skills to get repeat top scores for pvp matchups. Or like DDO having a self-rezzing pally/monk that just doesn't worry about anything.
Something I mentioned on the prior page with my Warframe example. It's not like games don't present mechanics for complexity and challenge, but they are often meta'd out of relevance by the game's own design and power scaling/creep.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There are varying degrees to how a game can adapt. You don't need to swing for all or nothing.
Having mobs that have a core routine for example, and have a chance at a modifier to their behavior or their skills, allows for potential variance without wiping the underlying expectation of a given type of mob. You can have systems that still carry through the major beats, but remix secondary elements so that any given raid or even individual mobs, while carrying predictable traits, is still capable of a curveball to keep players engaged.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
The fixed content is exactly what Gamers are tired of.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
why do you speak for other people?
"I'm looking for that."
That's the problem with mmorpg's these days (at least to my taste) it's all about learning the raid for good rewardz" and then moving on.
What about a fight that is dynamic and exciting in real time? Where people have to actually be present and act and react to what's going on as opposed to "first x will do this then at x health it will use these skills ... once the health is down to Y it will summon this, this and this."
Maybe that's your thing but it's not mine.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
How can you say nobody wants interesting AI? If people were not looking for challenge and new experience, then explain why when new content like dungeons, raids, etc... are released, those places are packed with players. New expansions are usually most popular at release before they are on farm.
By your standard, if nobody wanted interesting new challenge then content that is old and on complete FARM should be the most popular content?
I am not saying some people don't like doing old EZ mode content. There is a population that wants everything on EZ mode, I agree with that. Especially people who lack skills to complete challenging content. But you have to concede that a lot of people want new challenging content also, otherwise everyone would wait until there was ZERO challenge to complete new released content.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
If that ever happens it will be great but it won’t because like I ve said, most want the illusion of challenge, not a real challenge that will show how bad they are.
‘if that happens it will turn raids heavily into personal responsibility and understanding of the encounter and reaction time which not that many people have.
The hilarious thing is that will absolutely destroy a huge number of tryhard raiding guilds that solely clear because: 1) have raid leader tell them what to do instead of knowing what to do 2) Depend on learning mechanics by wiping repeatedly to the point it becomes memory like a monkey getting hit 10 times to learn not to do something rather than learning and reacting in real-time and understanding of what is happening.
‘’Which means for all those people their last crutch would be depending on the most broken meta combs to reduce the difficulty of the encounter but it won’t be enough since the reason they desperately need optimal combs is because they aren’t good enough with mechanics and need the extra damage to compensate and when mechanics suddenly become truly unpredictable they are screwed.
would love to see it just for the drama it will cause but TRUE unpredictable mechanics(not just there’s 5 mechanics and 1 of 5 happens at 2 minutes) won’t happen, it is just too hard for the average raiders to handle and as much as I know many people here hate to accept, people don’t enjoy being reminded that they are bad hence why the illusion of challenge is so desperately needed for them.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
why do you speak for other people?
"I'm looking for that."
That's the problem with mmorpg's these days (at least to my taste) it's all about learning the raid for good rewardz" and then moving on.
What about a fight that is dynamic and exciting in real time? Where people have to actually be present and act and react to what's going on as opposed to "first x will do this then at x health it will use these skills ... once the health is down to Y it will summon this, this and this."
Maybe that's your thing but it's not mine.
Have you ever ran with a raid group, on their 100th time doing a raid where someone, anyone, anyone at all, said, I wish the mechanics would change so we have to relearn this shit.
In 20 years of gaming, across several MMO's and doing thousands of raids, being involved several raid guilds, I have never heard anyone say this, in fact, I have never heard anyone even wanting something like that in discord, or outside just some asshattery by someone who was trying to act all edgelord but really just being a dick, and when asked if they plan to start leading raids and trying things differently, they shut the fuck up, and went back into their cave.
You want a dynamic real time fight, go PvP.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
How can you say nobody wants interesting AI? If people were not looking for challenge and new experience, then explain why when new content like dungeons, raids, etc... are released, those places are packed with players. New expansions are usually most popular at release before they are on farm.
By your standard, if nobody wanted interesting new challenge then content that is old and on complete FARM should be the most popular content?
I am not saying some people don't like doing old EZ mode content. There is a population that wants everything on EZ mode, I agree with that. Especially people who lack skills to complete challenging content. But you have to concede that a lot of people want new challenging content also, otherwise everyone would wait until there was ZERO challenge to complete new released content.
Stories of Football teams coming back in the second half with a new wind and a game plan to be victorious, the fables of hope to people, where the harsh reality is, the team that was dominating in the first half, also dominates in the second half, that is why tell stories of that second wind, because it's so fucking rare that there is a good chance we will never see or experience it directly, even if we are football fanatics, and best might have watched a movie about it, or some old play reels.
As far as the whole new content thing, new content is often popular because people are looking for the new loot and often the new levels up, the challenge can often go fuck itself, they are there to gain some kind of incremental power upgrade to their character, and the new content is what will provide that.
Now, depending on the game, the new content is often invalidates the loot from the old content, which is why it not popular anymore.
In games where the new content does not invalidate the old content, like GW2, the Original Content is a hopping place, super populated.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
why do you speak for other people?
"I'm looking for that."
That's the problem with mmorpg's these days (at least to my taste) it's all about learning the raid for good rewardz" and then moving on.
What about a fight that is dynamic and exciting in real time? Where people have to actually be present and act and react to what's going on as opposed to "first x will do this then at x health it will use these skills ... once the health is down to Y it will summon this, this and this."
Maybe that's your thing but it's not mine.
Have you ever ran with a raid group, on their 100th time doing a raid where someone, anyone, anyone at all, said, I wish the mechanics would change so we have to relearn this shit.
In 20 years of gaming, across several MMO's and doing thousands of raids, being involved several raid guilds, I have never heard anyone say this, in fact, I have never heard anyone even wanting something like that in discord, or outside just some asshattery by someone who was trying to act all edgelord but really just being a dick, and when asked if they plan to start leading raids and trying things differently, they shut the fuck up, and went back into their cave.
You want a dynamic real time fight, go PvP.
I"ve been in raids where people complained it was boring as they had done it "n'teen times."
And while there are people who are probably satisfied to do the same thing over and over again, "I am not."
Hence why I challenged your "no one is looking for that."
People definitely make their own hells and there are people who are only interested in "rewardz" and not having a good time.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Hell this also holds true for most team sports as well, case in point, in Football, while they may have to play for a fixed amount of innings when one team is clearly superior it's easy to see at the early onset who is going to win, and the rest of the game becomes mainly just a spectator show, and in some cases, not even a good show at that.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
No they aren't.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
why do you speak for other people?
"I'm looking for that."
That's the problem with mmorpg's these days (at least to my taste) it's all about learning the raid for good rewardz" and then moving on.
What about a fight that is dynamic and exciting in real time? Where people have to actually be present and act and react to what's going on as opposed to "first x will do this then at x health it will use these skills ... once the health is down to Y it will summon this, this and this."
Maybe that's your thing but it's not mine.
Have you ever ran with a raid group, on their 100th time doing a raid where someone, anyone, anyone at all, said, I wish the mechanics would change so we have to relearn this shit.
In 20 years of gaming, across several MMO's and doing thousands of raids, being involved several raid guilds, I have never heard anyone say this, in fact, I have never heard anyone even wanting something like that in discord, or outside just some asshattery by someone who was trying to act all edgelord but really just being a dick, and when asked if they plan to start leading raids and trying things differently, they shut the fuck up, and went back into their cave.
You want a dynamic real time fight, go PvP.
I"ve been in raids where people complained it was boring as they had done it "n'teen times."
And while there are people who are probably satisfied to do the same thing over and over again, "I am not."
Hence why I challenged your "no one is looking for that."
People definitely make their own hells and there are people who are only interested in "rewardz" and not having a good time.
You know, have met a few people that fussed that some raids were too easy.
And in the course of well over decade of some hardcore raiding in DDO, never once did one of those braggart little shits ever show up to my Theme runs.
I'd be like, "Oh you think ToD easy, well this Wednesday, I am running an all bards Elite TOD, at 18th max level, want to sign up?"
And they would always say No.. sure they would have every reason under sun why they can't, but at the end of the day, they were chicken shit, because like any sane raider, they knew that sounded like a fail run waiting to happen, yah.. well... so much for wanting challenge ya little shit.
You know who did show up, all the people I normally raided with, that are swimming in raid gear on our mains and figured, what the hell, the worst that happens is we get drunk and wipe.
And Did we wipe.. well... yes.. yes we did.. and truth be told, most of my theme runs wiped spectacularly, often with us Laughing our assess off the entire time.
But we all also approach with the idea that we are going to fail, and don't care, as when we are ready to really raid, all funs, shits, and giggles goes right the fuck out the window, and we are there to win, as fast and efficiently as possible, like every single raider I have ever met, or even known of, in my entire life.
Want to see how many of your friends like the idea of "Lets see if we can make this harder" pitch to them making it harder, and see how many suddenly don't really have the time for that nonsense.
The fact that, I would wager, you would not even think to propose to your raid group, an idea as silly as trying a theme run for a hard raid, should really tell you how alone you really are in your view.
Where, I used to propose that level of stupid about once a month when I was serious into raiding in DDO, and often shortmaned it because, well, such is life.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You know, have met a few people that fussed that some raids were too easy.
And in the course of well over decade of some hardcore raiding in DDO, never once did one of those braggart little shits ever show up to my Theme runs.
I'd be like, "Oh you think ToD easy, well this Wednesday, I am running an all bards Elite TOD, at 18th max level, want to sign up?"
And they would always say No..
You are not really addressing what I'm saying.
'Yes" there are people who will say they want challenge and will then make another decision. But your statement was "no one.,"
And I'm not "no one."
And, again, case in point "my skyrim mod" is somewhat challenging. I wanted to make it clear that it was challenging and it doesn't have thousands of up-votes. But it does have people who were very happy they played it and who gave great feedback.
I made that mod based off of my tastes. And it has slowly found similar people with similar tastes. I had one great player who did suggest I release a version that was more trimmed down so others could enjoy it and while I thought about it, in the end I decided I wouldn't. I made what I enjoy and that I hope others would enjoy.
So "yes" there are people who in reality don't want challenge or say they do but they don't. That's not everyone. It's very important to realize that.
Is it most people? Sure why not. But not everyone.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You know, have met a few people that fussed that some raids were too easy.
And in the course of well over decade of some hardcore raiding in DDO, never once did one of those braggart little shits ever show up to my Theme runs.
I'd be like, "Oh you think ToD easy, well this Wednesday, I am running an all bards Elite TOD, at 18th max level, want to sign up?"
And they would always say No..
You are not really addressing what I'm saying.
'Yes" there are people who will say they want challenge and will then make another decision. But your statement was "no one.,"
And I'm not "no one."
And, again, case in point "my skyrim mod" is somewhat challenging. I wanted to make it clear that it was challenging and it doesn't have thousands of up-votes. But it does have people who were very happy they played it and who gave great feedback.
I made that mod based off of my tastes. And it has slowly found similar people with similar tastes. I had one great player who did suggest I release a version that was more trimmed down so others could enjoy it and while I thought about it, in the end I decided I wouldn't. I made what I enjoy and that I hope others would enjoy.
So "yes" there are people who in reality don't want challenge or say they do but they don't. That's not everyone. It's very important to realize that.
Is it most people? Sure why not. But not everyone.
A mod for a single player game is nothing like an AI that can change tactics on an existing raid in an MMO, forcing players who have done the raid many times over to relearn a whole new tactic to keep up with the raid.
You are essence trying to draw a line to linking something like how you might enjoy playing a Solo game of Racquetball to College Football players.
Outside playing with balls, they have nothing in common.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I would only be repeating myself if I were to address or correct the arguments that's been made since I'd last commented.
This is a painfully cyclical look for less than excuse. Seemingly it's just for the sake of reaffirmation.
I could point out the flaws yet again with the football argument, but that would just be repeating the same thing again.
I could point out yet again that creating variance in mob behavior is not an all or nothing, and you don't have to completely change a raid to have discreet variable challenges within it. That would again be repeating what's already been addressed.
What is this belabored point with these nonsense analogies and staunch refusal to even consider that one's perspective is, in fact, painfully narrow and inflexible compared to the reality of the subject?
There's a certain someone with a certain signature that may wish to take some time to self-reflect on the meaning of it.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
If that ever happens it will be great but it won’t because like I ve said, most want the illusion of challenge, not a real challenge that will show how bad they are.
‘if that happens it will turn raids heavily into personal responsibility and understanding of the encounter and reaction time which not that many people have.
The hilarious thing is that will absolutely destroy a huge number of tryhard raiding guilds that solely clear because: 1) have raid leader tell them what to do instead of knowing what to do 2) Depend on learning mechanics by wiping repeatedly to the point it becomes memory like a monkey getting hit 10 times to learn not to do something rather than learning and reacting in real-time and understanding of what is happening.
‘’Which means for all those people their last crutch would be depending on the most broken meta combs to reduce the difficulty of the encounter but it won’t be enough since the reason they desperately need optimal combs is because they aren’t good enough with mechanics and need the extra damage to compensate and when mechanics suddenly become truly unpredictable they are screwed.
would love to see it just for the drama it will cause but TRUE unpredictable mechanics(not just there’s 5 mechanics and 1 of 5 happens at 2 minutes) won’t happen, it is just too hard for the average raiders to handle and as much as I know many people here hate to accept, people don’t enjoy being reminded that they are bad hence why the illusion of challenge is so desperately needed for them.
This sounds like "lowest common denominator" stuff.
But I have a separate issue. "Games" are meant to challenge, for the fun of overcoming the obstacles. I'm not sure that MMORPGs are even deserving of the "game" part of the title.
It's well known that people are hardwired to overcome problems. So much so that it's "fun" to our mental perspective. When games take that out of the equation and going with fixed answers, with Gamers reading the "how to" and simply following the instructions, it's no wonder that Gamers are tired of the same old thing.
Some of you think that "most" want it that way, but I can't believe that. It's against human nature. By "most", what you are really relating to is the loud "lowest common denominator", those who want everything handed to them on a silver platter and get upset if they don't get their way. They get loud and demanding (and appear to be everywhere), but they are by no means the average Gamers.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
If that ever happens it will be great but it won’t because like I ve said, most want the illusion of challenge, not a real challenge that will show how bad they are.
‘if that happens it will turn raids heavily into personal responsibility and understanding of the encounter and reaction time which not that many people have.
The hilarious thing is that will absolutely destroy a huge number of tryhard raiding guilds that solely clear because: 1) have raid leader tell them what to do instead of knowing what to do 2) Depend on learning mechanics by wiping repeatedly to the point it becomes memory like a monkey getting hit 10 times to learn not to do something rather than learning and reacting in real-time and understanding of what is happening.
‘’Which means for all those people their last crutch would be depending on the most broken meta combs to reduce the difficulty of the encounter but it won’t be enough since the reason they desperately need optimal combs is because they aren’t good enough with mechanics and need the extra damage to compensate and when mechanics suddenly become truly unpredictable they are screwed.
would love to see it just for the drama it will cause but TRUE unpredictable mechanics(not just there’s 5 mechanics and 1 of 5 happens at 2 minutes) won’t happen, it is just too hard for the average raiders to handle and as much as I know many people here hate to accept, people don’t enjoy being reminded that they are bad hence why the illusion of challenge is so desperately needed for them.
This sounds like "lowest common denominator" stuff.
But I have a separate issue. "Games" are meant to challenge, for the fun of overcoming the obstacles. I'm not sure that MMORPGs are even deserving of the "game" part of the title.
It's well known that people are hardwired to overcome problems. So much so that it's "fun" to our mental perspective. When games take that out of the equation and going with fixed answers, with Gamers reading the "how to" and simply following the instructions, it's no wonder that Gamers are tired of the same old thing.
Some of you think that "most" want it that way, but I can't believe that. It's against human nature. By "most", what you are really relating to is the loud "lowest common denominator", those who want everything handed to them on a silver platter and get upset if they don't get their way. They get loud and demanding (and appear to be everywhere), but they are by no means the average Gamers.
Eh?
Alright. I'll bite on this self made expecation of what a game is, and ask What's the challenge in playing Candyland?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You know, have met a few people that fussed that some raids were too easy.
And in the course of well over decade of some hardcore raiding in DDO, never once did one of those braggart little shits ever show up to my Theme runs.
I'd be like, "Oh you think ToD easy, well this Wednesday, I am running an all bards Elite TOD, at 18th max level, want to sign up?"
And they would always say No..
You are not really addressing what I'm saying.
'Yes" there are people who will say they want challenge and will then make another decision. But your statement was "no one.,"
And I'm not "no one."
And, again, case in point "my skyrim mod" is somewhat challenging. I wanted to make it clear that it was challenging and it doesn't have thousands of up-votes. But it does have people who were very happy they played it and who gave great feedback.
I made that mod based off of my tastes. And it has slowly found similar people with similar tastes. I had one great player who did suggest I release a version that was more trimmed down so others could enjoy it and while I thought about it, in the end I decided I wouldn't. I made what I enjoy and that I hope others would enjoy.
So "yes" there are people who in reality don't want challenge or say they do but they don't. That's not everyone. It's very important to realize that.
Is it most people? Sure why not. But not everyone.
A mod for a single player game is nothing like an AI that can change tactics on an existing raid in an MMO, forcing players who have done the raid many times over to relearn a whole new tactic to keep up with the raid.
You are essence trying to draw a line to linking something like how you might enjoy playing a Solo game of Racquetball to College Football players.
Outside playing with balls, they have nothing in common.
You are not addressing what I'm saying.
1, there are people who want challenge and who wouldn't mind a changing AI for a raid.
2, you made the statement that "no one wants that" and I told you that wasn't the case.
3, you made the statement about players wanting things easy and I agreed that there are players who want things easy. I used an example of my mod.
I am not saying a mod is as complex as AI. I am not drawing a connection between AI and a mod. I am saying that as an example, some players prefer to have things easier and I've seen this first hand with my mod.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
If that ever happens it will be great but it won’t because like I ve said, most want the illusion of challenge, not a real challenge that will show how bad they are.
‘if that happens it will turn raids heavily into personal responsibility and understanding of the encounter and reaction time which not that many people have.
The hilarious thing is that will absolutely destroy a huge number of tryhard raiding guilds that solely clear because: 1) have raid leader tell them what to do instead of knowing what to do 2) Depend on learning mechanics by wiping repeatedly to the point it becomes memory like a monkey getting hit 10 times to learn not to do something rather than learning and reacting in real-time and understanding of what is happening.
‘’Which means for all those people their last crutch would be depending on the most broken meta combs to reduce the difficulty of the encounter but it won’t be enough since the reason they desperately need optimal combs is because they aren’t good enough with mechanics and need the extra damage to compensate and when mechanics suddenly become truly unpredictable they are screwed.
would love to see it just for the drama it will cause but TRUE unpredictable mechanics(not just there’s 5 mechanics and 1 of 5 happens at 2 minutes) won’t happen, it is just too hard for the average raiders to handle and as much as I know many people here hate to accept, people don’t enjoy being reminded that they are bad hence why the illusion of challenge is so desperately needed for them.
This sounds like "lowest common denominator" stuff.
But I have a separate issue. "Games" are meant to challenge, for the fun of overcoming the obstacles. I'm not sure that MMORPGs are even deserving of the "game" part of the title.
It's well known that people are hardwired to overcome problems. So much so that it's "fun" to our mental perspective. When games take that out of the equation and going with fixed answers, with Gamers reading the "how to" and simply following the instructions, it's no wonder that Gamers are tired of the same old thing.
Some of you think that "most" want it that way, but I can't believe that. It's against human nature. By "most", what you are really relating to is the loud "lowest common denominator", those who want everything handed to them on a silver platter and get upset if they don't get their way. They get loud and demanding (and appear to be everywhere), but they are by no means the average Gamers.
Eh?
Alright. I'll bite on this self made expecation of what a game is, and ask What's the challenge in playing Candyland?
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
If that ever happens it will be great but it won’t because like I ve said, most want the illusion of challenge, not a real challenge that will show how bad they are.
‘if that happens it will turn raids heavily into personal responsibility and understanding of the encounter and reaction time which not that many people have.
The hilarious thing is that will absolutely destroy a huge number of tryhard raiding guilds that solely clear because: 1) have raid leader tell them what to do instead of knowing what to do 2) Depend on learning mechanics by wiping repeatedly to the point it becomes memory like a monkey getting hit 10 times to learn not to do something rather than learning and reacting in real-time and understanding of what is happening.
‘’Which means for all those people their last crutch would be depending on the most broken meta combs to reduce the difficulty of the encounter but it won’t be enough since the reason they desperately need optimal combs is because they aren’t good enough with mechanics and need the extra damage to compensate and when mechanics suddenly become truly unpredictable they are screwed.
would love to see it just for the drama it will cause but TRUE unpredictable mechanics(not just there’s 5 mechanics and 1 of 5 happens at 2 minutes) won’t happen, it is just too hard for the average raiders to handle and as much as I know many people here hate to accept, people don’t enjoy being reminded that they are bad hence why the illusion of challenge is so desperately needed for them.
This sounds like "lowest common denominator" stuff.
But I have a separate issue. "Games" are meant to challenge, for the fun of overcoming the obstacles. I'm not sure that MMORPGs are even deserving of the "game" part of the title.
It's well known that people are hardwired to overcome problems. So much so that it's "fun" to our mental perspective. When games take that out of the equation and going with fixed answers, with Gamers reading the "how to" and simply following the instructions, it's no wonder that Gamers are tired of the same old thing.
Some of you think that "most" want it that way, but I can't believe that. It's against human nature. By "most", what you are really relating to is the loud "lowest common denominator", those who want everything handed to them on a silver platter and get upset if they don't get their way. They get loud and demanding (and appear to be everywhere), but they are by no means the average Gamers.
Eh?
Alright. I'll bite on this self made expecation of what a game is, and ask What's the challenge in playing Candyland?
About the same as a Themepark MMORPG.
That does not answer my question.
But, I guess if you are really that epic at playing games, perhaps you need to focus on the PvP ones, and you're obviously just too damn good for PvE.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You know, have met a few people that fussed that some raids were too easy.
And in the course of well over decade of some hardcore raiding in DDO, never once did one of those braggart little shits ever show up to my Theme runs.
I'd be like, "Oh you think ToD easy, well this Wednesday, I am running an all bards Elite TOD, at 18th max level, want to sign up?"
And they would always say No..
You are not really addressing what I'm saying.
'Yes" there are people who will say they want challenge and will then make another decision. But your statement was "no one.,"
And I'm not "no one."
And, again, case in point "my skyrim mod" is somewhat challenging. I wanted to make it clear that it was challenging and it doesn't have thousands of up-votes. But it does have people who were very happy they played it and who gave great feedback.
I made that mod based off of my tastes. And it has slowly found similar people with similar tastes. I had one great player who did suggest I release a version that was more trimmed down so others could enjoy it and while I thought about it, in the end I decided I wouldn't. I made what I enjoy and that I hope others would enjoy.
So "yes" there are people who in reality don't want challenge or say they do but they don't. That's not everyone. It's very important to realize that.
Is it most people? Sure why not. But not everyone.
A mod for a single player game is nothing like an AI that can change tactics on an existing raid in an MMO, forcing players who have done the raid many times over to relearn a whole new tactic to keep up with the raid.
You are essence trying to draw a line to linking something like how you might enjoy playing a Solo game of Racquetball to College Football players.
Outside playing with balls, they have nothing in common.
You are not addressing what I'm saying.
1, there are people who want challenge and who wouldn't mind a changing AI for a raid.
2, you made the statement that "no one wants that" and I told you that wasn't the case.
3, you made the statement about players wanting things easy and I agreed that there are players who want things easy. I used an example of my mod.
I am not saying a mod is as complex as AI. I am not drawing a connection between AI and a mod. I am saying that as an example, some players prefer to have things easier and I've seen this first hand with my mod.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You know, have met a few people that fussed that some raids were too easy.
And in the course of well over decade of some hardcore raiding in DDO, never once did one of those braggart little shits ever show up to my Theme runs.
I'd be like, "Oh you think ToD easy, well this Wednesday, I am running an all bards Elite TOD, at 18th max level, want to sign up?"
And they would always say No..
You are not really addressing what I'm saying.
'Yes" there are people who will say they want challenge and will then make another decision. But your statement was "no one.,"
And I'm not "no one."
And, again, case in point "my skyrim mod" is somewhat challenging. I wanted to make it clear that it was challenging and it doesn't have thousands of up-votes. But it does have people who were very happy they played it and who gave great feedback.
I made that mod based off of my tastes. And it has slowly found similar people with similar tastes. I had one great player who did suggest I release a version that was more trimmed down so others could enjoy it and while I thought about it, in the end I decided I wouldn't. I made what I enjoy and that I hope others would enjoy.
So "yes" there are people who in reality don't want challenge or say they do but they don't. That's not everyone. It's very important to realize that.
Is it most people? Sure why not. But not everyone.
A mod for a single player game is nothing like an AI that can change tactics on an existing raid in an MMO, forcing players who have done the raid many times over to relearn a whole new tactic to keep up with the raid.
You are essence trying to draw a line to linking something like how you might enjoy playing a Solo game of Racquetball to College Football players.
Outside playing with balls, they have nothing in common.
You are not addressing what I'm saying.
1, there are people who want challenge and who wouldn't mind a changing AI for a raid.
2, you made the statement that "no one wants that" and I told you that wasn't the case.
3, you made the statement about players wanting things easy and I agreed that there are players who want things easy. I used an example of my mod.
I am not saying a mod is as complex as AI. I am not drawing a connection between AI and a mod. I am saying that as an example, some players prefer to have things easier and I've seen this first hand with my mod.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time. I get you been playing the same game for 20 years. For many people doing the same thing over and over is redundant.
There are games that constantly add mechanics that change the entire game. Starcraft 2 is an example. They have random mutators each week. The higher tier you are the more mutators there are for the map. Also by having different combinations it makes the map feel complete fresh and new. People are constantly playing those when they come out each week. So the EXACT same map can be complete refreshed when new mechanics are part of the mix. Sometimes the map mutator combo is so difficult most cant beat it, they just have to week until a new combo comes out the next week.
Another example is Diablo 3 where elite packs spawn different affixes. When you get more than 1 pack at a time, it makes the encounter harder. Assuming you are not playing on complete EZ mode where you bypass the mechanics altogether. But you have to actually play in a challenging mode see the difference. Which by the sound of it is something you haven't experienced before.
Another example is WoW had a boss in classic that had a different affix pair each week. Some combos were much harder and added extra challenge to figure out how to beat it. But again when you roll level 60 dungeons at level 120 you would never notice something like that.
So yeah there is a lot of people that don't want to do the same exact thing over and over for eternity like groundhogs day.
Have you ever directly wanted to have to re-learn a raid?
Yes or No.
Yes, people want new content all the time.
I didn't ask.. Do you want to learn a new raid. (With no doubt new shiny loot attached to it)
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Also, I guess this might be MMO dependent, but using GW2 and DDO, a whole part of combat on those MMO's, is in fact mitigating the risk of damage, either by evasion, deflection, self healing, or other means.
In fact, being able to mitigate damage or lessen it's risk, is in fact what could be the dividing factor between what make one opponent far superior to another, even if they are both able to do the same DPS. This is why, PvP and PvE are really not in the same ballpark, and also why, I firmly believe that most players really don't want AI level tactically thinking PvE opponents.
This is why a lot of MMO's substitute tactical ability of a mob with just more HP to simulate Challenge.
But getting back to doing damage, in a conflict, the ability to defeat an opponent, by whatever means I have, is a mark of skill, as such, your character doing damaging does not necessarily mean you put your opponent at risk, or that there was a chance you were going to win simple because their life bar ticked down, it simply means you did some damage, but that is not the same as being a threat.
A Treat is something that has the risk to kill me.
To use a real world example. If you stabbed me in the arm with a spork, it will hurt, I will bleed, it will have done noticeable damage to me. If then I proceeded to beat you to a bloody pulp with a tire iron for stabbing me in the arm with a Spork, understand that under no circumstances or situations was that damage done by that spork stab a legitimate indication that you had the chance to win the fight.
The same logic holds true in MMO, just because you damaged something, or someone, does not mean you had a chance in hell of winning.
With my guardian, it was more of a group activity since I built them for supporting roles.
It highlights the flaw though, as GW2 relied and still relies heavily on regular mobs being relatively finite in their function. They melee, range, and do some status effects. The biggest thing with Orr was the mobs hobbling you and status draining your health, which is mostly absolved with the likes of AED for engi or symbol of swiftness + line of warding on guardian.
That's the fundamental of the game broadly, but it's more so that it's rare for general mobs to leverage hard counter abilities. Most the time you're again looking at vet or more so champion mobs who will actually trigger specific defensive states or use counters like reflecting attacks back temporarily. A lot of the even larger mobs/bosses end up being more about zone control and eating away at people with status effects.
I think your Football analogy is bad. I have seen where in the first half it was a blowout, only for the other team to change tactics at halftime and make a complete come from behind victory in the 2nd half. So obviously the teams were evenly matched but one was able to adapt and the others was not. This is the exact sort of challenge people are looking for. Something that requires people to actually think rather than coast to victory.
It would be worse if all you had to do was show up, get the win and go home. How boring would that be.
It's also a consideration of pacing. As long as a football game's production/run time is, bit less than half of that is ever actually time spent playing. It's additionally broken up quite a bit with breaks so athletes can get a breather or rethink their strategy. The amount of time spent per-play is pretty small.
A football game isn't one endless brawl as a result, it has ups and downs. And it's the moment to moment plays which lead to the immediate gains/victories, that then compound towards overall victory. Same principle applies to the boxing and UFC examples.
If you're taking timeouts in the middle of a fight, then something has been artificially extended/altered about the way the fights are conducted. This is why a street fight can be over in a minute when a UFC fight takes fifteen on average.
I say it frequently when talking about challenge, "adapting". That's an important element of what makes a challenge. Presenting scenarios where you are faced with a problem that makes you change your approach, learn something new, refine your build and skill options, etc.
This again does not mandate that things become dragged out slogs. Challenge itself, and conflict, is not inherently bound to being drawn out experiences unless one is to speak of those adapted for viewership. And that's not going to be a perfect translation either, as what engages a spectator is not going to necessarily be what engages an active participant
It's where, when a game does present a challenge, it can be valued for giving players something to puzzle their way through. Unfortunately many games are pretty self-sabotaging.
GW2 can demonstrate that pretty well in the point of how it's mitigation and abilities work. As much as mitigation is a thing, so is everyone running around with 30-60k hp and using the same looping rotation versus most every mob. An anecdotal example here would actually be how I was able to use my engi's golem and it's finite set of usable skills to get repeat top scores for pvp matchups. Or like DDO having a self-rezzing pally/monk that just doesn't worry about anything.
Something I mentioned on the prior page with my Warframe example. It's not like games don't present mechanics for complexity and challenge, but they are often meta'd out of relevance by the game's own design and power scaling/creep.
No is looking to need to relearn a raid, because the AI can adapt and counter their previous system.
No one is looking for that.
Having mobs that have a core routine for example, and have a chance at a modifier to their behavior or their skills, allows for potential variance without wiping the underlying expectation of a given type of mob. You can have systems that still carry through the major beats, but remix secondary elements so that any given raid or even individual mobs, while carrying predictable traits, is still capable of a curveball to keep players engaged.
Once upon a time....
"I'm looking for that."
That's the problem with mmorpg's these days (at least to my taste) it's all about learning the raid for good rewardz" and then moving on.
What about a fight that is dynamic and exciting in real time? Where people have to actually be present and act and react to what's going on as opposed to "first x will do this then at x health it will use these skills ... once the health is down to Y it will summon this, this and this."
Maybe that's your thing but it's not mine.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
By your standard, if nobody wanted interesting new challenge then content that is old and on complete FARM should be the most popular content?
I am not saying some people don't like doing old EZ mode content. There is a population that wants everything on EZ mode, I agree with that. Especially people who lack skills to complete challenging content. But you have to concede that a lot of people want new challenging content also, otherwise everyone would wait until there was ZERO challenge to complete new released content.
‘if that happens it will turn raids heavily into personal responsibility and understanding of the encounter and reaction time which not that many people have.
The hilarious thing is that will absolutely destroy a huge number of tryhard raiding guilds that solely clear because:
1) have raid leader tell them what to do instead of knowing what to do
2) Depend on learning mechanics by wiping repeatedly to the point it becomes memory like a monkey getting hit 10 times to learn not to do something rather than learning and reacting in real-time and understanding of what is happening.
‘’Which means for all those people their last crutch would be depending on the most broken meta combs to reduce the difficulty of the encounter but it won’t be enough since the reason they desperately need optimal combs is because they aren’t good enough with mechanics and need the extra damage to compensate and when mechanics suddenly become truly unpredictable they are screwed.
would love to see it just for the drama it will cause but TRUE unpredictable mechanics(not just there’s 5 mechanics and 1 of 5 happens at 2 minutes) won’t happen, it is just too hard for the average raiders to handle and as much as I know many people here hate to accept, people don’t enjoy being reminded that they are bad hence why the illusion of challenge is so desperately needed for them.
In 20 years of gaming, across several MMO's and doing thousands of raids, being involved several raid guilds, I have never heard anyone say this, in fact, I have never heard anyone even wanting something like that in discord, or outside just some asshattery by someone who was trying to act all edgelord but really just being a dick, and when asked if they plan to start leading raids and trying things differently, they shut the fuck up, and went back into their cave.
You want a dynamic real time fight, go PvP.
As far as the whole new content thing, new content is often popular because people are looking for the new loot and often the new levels up, the challenge can often go fuck itself, they are there to gain some kind of incremental power upgrade to their character, and the new content is what will provide that.
Now, depending on the game, the new content is often invalidates the loot from the old content, which is why it not popular anymore.
In games where the new content does not invalidate the old content, like GW2, the Original Content is a hopping place, super populated.
And while there are people who are probably satisfied to do the same thing over and over again, "I am not."
Hence why I challenged your "no one is looking for that."
People definitely make their own hells and there are people who are only interested in "rewardz" and not having a good time.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And in the course of well over decade of some hardcore raiding in DDO, never once did one of those braggart little shits ever show up to my Theme runs.
I'd be like, "Oh you think ToD easy, well this Wednesday, I am running an all bards Elite TOD, at 18th max level, want to sign up?"
And they would always say No.. sure they would have every reason under sun why they can't, but at the end of the day, they were chicken shit, because like any sane raider, they knew that sounded like a fail run waiting to happen, yah.. well... so much for wanting challenge ya little shit.
You know who did show up, all the people I normally raided with, that are swimming in raid gear on our mains and figured, what the hell, the worst that happens is we get drunk and wipe.
And Did we wipe.. well... yes.. yes we did.. and truth be told, most of my theme runs wiped spectacularly, often with us Laughing our assess off the entire time.
But we all also approach with the idea that we are going to fail, and don't care, as when we are ready to really raid, all funs, shits, and giggles goes right the fuck out the window, and we are there to win, as fast and efficiently as possible, like every single raider I have ever met, or even known of, in my entire life.
Want to see how many of your friends like the idea of "Lets see if we can make this harder" pitch to them making it harder, and see how many suddenly don't really have the time for that nonsense.
The fact that, I would wager, you would not even think to propose to your raid group, an idea as silly as trying a theme run for a hard raid, should really tell you how alone you really are in your view.
Where, I used to propose that level of stupid about once a month when I was serious into raiding in DDO, and often shortmaned it because, well, such is life.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You are essence trying to draw a line to linking something like how you might enjoy playing a Solo game of Racquetball to College Football players.
Outside playing with balls, they have nothing in common.
This is a painfully cyclical look for less than excuse. Seemingly it's just for the sake of reaffirmation.
I could point out the flaws yet again with the football argument, but that would just be repeating the same thing again.
I could point out yet again that creating variance in mob behavior is not an all or nothing, and you don't have to completely change a raid to have discreet variable challenges within it. That would again be repeating what's already been addressed.
What is this belabored point with these nonsense analogies and staunch refusal to even consider that one's perspective is, in fact, painfully narrow and inflexible compared to the reality of the subject?
There's a certain someone with a certain signature that may wish to take some time to self-reflect on the meaning of it.
But I have a separate issue.
"Games" are meant to challenge, for the fun of overcoming the obstacles.
I'm not sure that MMORPGs are even deserving of the "game" part of the title.
It's well known that people are hardwired to overcome problems. So much so that it's "fun" to our mental perspective.
When games take that out of the equation and going with fixed answers, with Gamers reading the "how to" and simply following the instructions, it's no wonder that Gamers are tired of the same old thing.
Some of you think that "most" want it that way, but I can't believe that. It's against human nature.
By "most", what you are really relating to is the loud "lowest common denominator", those who want everything handed to them on a silver platter and get upset if they don't get their way.
They get loud and demanding (and appear to be everywhere), but they are by no means the average Gamers.
Once upon a time....
Alright. I'll bite on this self made expecation of what a game is, and ask What's the challenge in playing Candyland?
You are not addressing what I'm saying.
1, there are people who want challenge and who wouldn't mind a changing AI for a raid.
2, you made the statement that "no one wants that" and I told you that wasn't the case.
3, you made the statement about players wanting things easy and I agreed that there are players who want things easy. I used an example of my mod.
I am not saying a mod is as complex as AI. I am not drawing a connection between AI and a mod. I am saying that as an example, some players prefer to have things easier and I've seen this first hand with my mod.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Once upon a time....
But, I guess if you are really that epic at playing games, perhaps you need to focus on the PvP ones, and you're obviously just too damn good for PvE.
Yes or No.
There are games that constantly add mechanics that change the entire game. Starcraft 2 is an example. They have random mutators each week. The higher tier you are the more mutators there are for the map. Also by having different combinations it makes the map feel complete fresh and new. People are constantly playing those when they come out each week. So the EXACT same map can be complete refreshed when new mechanics are part of the mix. Sometimes the map mutator combo is so difficult most cant beat it, they just have to week until a new combo comes out the next week.
Another example is Diablo 3 where elite packs spawn different affixes. When you get more than 1 pack at a time, it makes the encounter harder. Assuming you are not playing on complete EZ mode where you bypass the mechanics altogether. But you have to actually play in a challenging mode see the difference. Which by the sound of it is something you haven't experienced before.
Another example is WoW had a boss in classic that had a different affix pair each week. Some combos were much harder and added extra challenge to figure out how to beat it. But again when you roll level 60 dungeons at level 120 you would never notice something like that.
So yeah there is a lot of people that don't want to do the same exact thing over and over for eternity like groundhogs day.
I asked.. Do you want to have re-learn a existing raid. (With all the same old ass boring loot it always had)