What's some times "Post WoW" MMOs/Developers did RIGHT?

MMOExposed

I know the MMO genre as a whole has socially been on decline in the eyes of many that browse dedicated forums like this.
We have trashed Post WoW MMO development for close to 2 decades now.      
       
But over the years, one thing i rarely see spoken, is the RIGHT THINGS that post WoW MMOs did over the years. 

I have a few to list, but I like reading yall replies to topics like this. This gives us a chance to discuss the good about Post WoW MMOS instead of the usual bad things.

KnightFalz

Some of us trashed. Some not.

The right thing some did was try new approaches to the genre. Many hope for a change that will revitalize MMORPGs, and that will only come through experimentation.

eoloe

Graphics.

 

Amaranthar

KnightFalz said:

Some of us trashed. Some not.

The right thing some did was try new approaches to the genre. Many hope for a change that will revitalize MMORPGs, and that will only come through experimentation.

There's been plenty of "experimentation" through the years. Many mistakes have been made and *should be* obvious. 
The biggest problem is bias towards old notions. 

Amaranthar

I thought Darfall's falling arrows that could shoot over hills was interesting, but I'm not sure how they designed it and if it was the best way to go. It might have simply been a "follow the ground" thing, which wouldn't be the best, in my opinion.
Still, interesting for game play. 

Amaranthar

Growing crops, regrowing trees, and that sort of thing, by a number of games. 

Amaranthar

Free Flight, wasn't that post WoW? CoH, or did someone else beat them to it?
Add the hang gliders in a few games too. 

KnightFalz

Amaranthar said:

KnightFalz said:

Some of us trashed. Some not.

The right thing some did was try new approaches to the genre. Many hope for a change that will revitalize MMORPGs, and that will only come through experimentation.

There's been plenty of "experimentation" through the years. Many mistakes have been made and *should be* obvious. 
The biggest problem is bias towards old notions. 

And yet people continue to pine for something that will change everything. Clearly there hasn't yet been enough experimentation as it remains unfound.

The biggest problem is bias against notions contrary to our own.

Ralphie2449

-Having an actually decent story/Characters that keeps people invested unlike WoW's children's cartoon tier story and character depth. Plus great cutscenes.

Hopefully more will learn to follow FF14/Swtor's example.

-Focusing less on raiding and more on the rest of the game that the majority will interact with

-Gear that is decent and can be grinded outside of just raids/rated pvp.

-Strong visual graphic effects on your abilities making magic actually feel devastating, FF14 really has made ability effects look cool af

-Focus on automated que group finder rather than forced social interaction through outdated manual group making.

On the negatives, combat has been hurt over the years with a lot less focus on personal utility/dps defensives and trying to turn everything into moba tier with 4-5 skills

KnightFalz

Ralphie2449 said:

Hopefully more will learn to follow FF14/Swtor's example.

Hopefully not. I can live without an endless stream of miniature movies along with my MMORPG game play. Such is better suited to solo games.

Kyleran

Ralphie2449 said:

-Having an actually decent story/Characters that keeps people invested unlike WoW's children's cartoon tier story and character depth. Plus great cutscenes.

Hopefully more will learn to follow FF14/Swtor's example.

-Focusing less on raiding and more on the rest of the game that the majority will interact with

-Gear that is decent and can be grinded outside of just raids/rated pvp.

-Strong visual graphic effects on your abilities making magic actually feel devastating, FF14 really has made ability effects look cool af

-Focus on automated que group finder rather than forced social interaction through outdated manual group making.

On the negatives, combat has been hurt over the years with a lot less focus on personal utility/dps defensives and trying to turn everything into moba tier with 4-5 skills

I'd list several of your positives as negative changes to the genre, in particular automatic queue/group finders, excessively showy displays of magic and overblown story telling / cut scenes like SWTORs (players should be the legends in MMOs, I play single player games if I want to be walked through a story, or read a book even.)

I'd agree with being able to get gear outside of raids and rated PVP except that is more an issue of playing the wrong MMORPGs since such could be obtained in EVE, DAOC, Lineage 1and 2 which were all pre-WOW.

I'd say ESO's One Tameril was a good attempt at making the entire game world accessible and useful to players of all levels though like all positives there are some drawbacks to their approach as well.

Amaranthar said:

Free Flight, wasn't that post WoW? CoH, or did someone else beat them to it?
Add the hang gliders in a few games too. 

Shadowbane had a class with free flight, gender locked harpy or something which I never tried as I recall but I wasn't able to get in touch with my inner feminine side to play a female character until many years post WOW launch.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

cheyane

Remali said:

Action combat and less pressure for raiding

Sorry to say this is an absolute negative and is slowly becoming the main reason this genre is too hard for me. I prefer the game where I can pick a skill from a few action bars of skills that gave me more variety and choice on how to approach the content. Everything done at breakneck speed and twitch belong to shooters and is a negative in this genre.

Ralphie2449

cheyane said:

 I prefer the game where I can pick a skill from a few action bars of skills that gave me more variety and choice on how to approach the content.

That is a problem caused by the players.

By design rpgs allow for many ways to approach an encounter, but most high end players/tryhard mateslaves will just copy paste what a guide tells them is most optimal therefore making the entire customization part of an mmorpg utterly pointless.

An optimal build for an encounter will always exist due to nature of math, sadly instead of being ignored so players can focus on their personal fun and builds, it is worshipped as "only viable build, everything else bad", and not only that, they will discriminate against anyone not worshiping the meta too.

FF14 avoided that problem by simply removing all forms of customization but for us who actually enjoy the customization part of RPGs, it is a serious problem.

Though considering the majority at high end just copy paste what a guide tells them, definitely feels like we are a minority who enjoy making our own builds and decisions.

olepi

* disclaimer, I never played WoW.

Two games that came out about the same time as WoW had new features I liked:

CoH -- flying, jumping over tall buildings, real super-hero stuff

Ryzom -- sandbox MMO, with the best virtual world to play in. The best crafting game ever.

I liked PoTBS's ship warfare and their crafting/trading mechanism. Also liked how PvP was done there.

I liked how LoTRO was full of "lore".

And I liked Vanguard's "chunking" instead of zones. Wide open world, with open dungeons. I don't think anybody else has done that. Vanguard's crafting and housing was superior too.

Honorable mention for ESO's fully voiced quests.

user298

One of the best changes "post WoW" were tools to make you waste less time on redundant tasks so you would have more spare time left on things you actually enjoy and to make you less annoying to other players.

Example of such tool: automatic queue system that connects multiple servers/realms (technically it does exist in WoW but it wasn't present in original version for a long time) where you queue for specific dungeon/raid (or for a "roulette" which automatically assigns you to whatever dungeon/raid that some other people already queued for) then just do whatever you want to while you're in queue, then when your queue is up - you're automatically teleported inside the dungeon/raid/trial/whatever. It saves significant amount of time because I don't have to travel to the entrance of each instanced location each time I want to enter it and it makes me less annoying to other people because I don't have to literally spam local/global chat channels with "Looking for class X, must be ilvl999, must have attunement/keys to part Y of dungeon Z, must know strategy W", the kind of spam that (when being spammed in general chat channels) interferes with people's casual conversations and "pushes" them out of the chatbox.

The time I save when using such tool I can use on other things that actually bring me pleasure in MMOs, like socializing with other players (real socialization, where you don't use someone as a disposable tool for grinding dungeon loot with because bad game design forces you to do this to get specific piece of loot, but where you socialize for the sake of socializing, like what people do at Goldshire Inn on Moonguard in WoW, or at Quicksand tavern on Balmung in FF14). Or on things like hunting other players in open world (if the game has open world PvP) 

Theocritus

eoloe said:

Graphics.

 

Yep thats about all I can come up with too......The problem is that the genre shifted after WoW released......It went from giving us a world and letting us provide the entertainment to a world that had to entertain us......All of  a sudden we had to have cutscenes and voice acting....It was kind of like the music industry when MTV came out....It went from being about the music to being about the video and the music suffered greatly.

MMOExposed

Theocritus said:

eoloe said:

Graphics.

 

Yep thats about all I can come up with too......The problem is that the genre shifted after WoW released......It went from giving us a world and letting us provide the entertainment to a world that had to entertain us......All of  a sudden we had to have cutscenes and voice acting....It was kind of like the music industry when MTV came out....It went from being about the music to being about the video and the music suffered greatly.

What about Dynamic Events with large scale meta bosses that dynamically spawn when things trigger it?

What about Server performance for large scale multiplayer battles?

How about action combat?

Mendel

Amaranthar said:

Free Flight, wasn't that post WoW? CoH, or did someone else beat them to it?
Add the hang gliders in a few games too. 

PWI was pre-WoW, I think, and every class had flight.  If you ever need to imagine a boring free flight implementation, simply load up PWI and level to 5 or 6.

Mendel

As for the topic, I'm not entirely certain that I can come up with anything beyond graphics, either.  The resolution and art style have improved, and terrain looks less-blocky than it did in the early years.

Performance in large scale PvP combat doesn't appear to have improved much over DaoC (pre-WoW).  Yes, there have been a lot of games promising vastly improved performance; not nearly as many have delivered, and they're mostly action combat (a negative in my book).

The only modern game feature that I've really liked are the Open World Events.  When there are enough people around of the appropriate levels, they can be great fun.  That's when someone isn't slumming and dominating the event.  It would be even better if these events roamed around, and didn't just occur in mostly static locations.

KnightFalz

cheyane said:

Remali said:

Action combat and less pressure for raiding

Sorry to say this is an absolute negative and is slowly becoming the main reason this genre is too hard for me. I prefer the game where I can pick a skill from a few action bars of skills that gave me more variety and choice on how to approach the content. Everything done at breakneck speed and twitch belong to shooters and is a negative in this genre.

It is not an absolute negative. Some favour it and others not, making it a matter of preference save for those unable to play fast paced games due to an extenuating circumstance. A fast rate of play belongs in any genre it is enjoyed in.

KnightFalz

City of Heroes did many things novel at the time.

-Separation of character ability from gear appearance by default.
-Player customization of instanced content difficulty.
-Radio and newspaper missions to provide content on demand, often used by pickup groups to facilitate play outside game story missions.
-Player created content, meant to allow players to tell their own stories as was done by some RP groups (and a whole bunch of missions meant solely for the creation of ideal grind conditions as was done by others.)
-With going Rouge, the ability to switch from hero to villain or stay somewhere on the spectrum between those extremes.
-Player created and extremely customizable superhero bases. The system was tricky to use well but those that mastered it could make spectacular creations.
-Power customization, often in terms of colour change but sometimes through other means. Earth Control could look like stone, lava formations, or crystalline constructs for example, while also allowing colour choices. Many powers also allowed to effects to be turned off for those that wanted a more natural look for their characters.

I'll probably think of more things later. CoH stood out in a lot of ways.

Dattelis

Rift's overworld content for sure. Sure there are many that try to replicate it but still dont do it as well imo. With Rift, it wasn't just about having stuff to do on a map but also how the zone events could manipulate the zone's environment and even kill off npcs/take over settlements if left unchecked. Couple that with their manual scale down system, kind of gave extra incentives for higher levels to go back to old zones just to do those zone events.

OldKingLog

worldsbestdad said:

Kyleran said:

Shadowbane had a class with free flight, gender locked harpy or something which I never tried as I recall but I wasn't able to get in touch with my inner feminine side to play a female character until many years post WOW launch.

The only gender locked class in Shadowbane is the Huntress, all Nephilim are equal and can fly freely, boy or girl.

Also gender locked the fury, who could levitate. Templars could fly at higher levels, as could Warlocks, and I believe Channelers. Natural races like the Nephilim and Aracoix could also fly. With the exception of the Warlock it was all pretty primitive compared to Wow's open world flight.

cheyane

KnightFalz said:

cheyane said:

Remali said:

Action combat and less pressure for raiding

Sorry to say this is an absolute negative and is slowly becoming the main reason this genre is too hard for me. I prefer the game where I can pick a skill from a few action bars of skills that gave me more variety and choice on how to approach the content. Everything done at breakneck speed and twitch belong to shooters and is a negative in this genre.

It is not an absolute negative. Some favour it and others not, making it a matter of preference save for those unable to play fast paced games due to an extenuating circumstance. A fast rate of play belongs in any genre it is enjoyed in.

I am looking at it from the point of view of using a multitude of skills that don't just involve damage and heals.  I am talking about using debuffs, summons, shields and more obscure things like slows, roots and other means like positioning that don't directly involve just dpsing and jumping to avoid stuff.

That type of gameplay belongs to a proper party based mmorpg where a group has to consider what skill to employ and isn't just reacting in a matter of seconds. Less time to react not only minimizes the number of skills on the bar but it also severely restricts what number of effects an encounter can throw up to make it more interesting. The result is more simplified by force of speed over thought.

I am not saying it is not enjoyable but rather that type of gameplay involving fast decisions and twitch isn't the forte of an mmorpg. Especially the rpg part because you're creating a class choosing skills that define your character. I would even go as to say action mmorpg severely limits the number of interesting counters you can put in fights. It might be fun but it does not lend itself to more creative options in handling an encounter.

I especially noticed this when playing Atelier Ryza that reduced the alchemy part to just a few items because you just didn't have the time to choose so you always used the best dd or heal and wasn't keen on spending you efforts making more obscure items that you wouldn't have time to employ. The turn based Atelier games were always the best to maximize the beauty of the alchemy system.

Action mmorpgs are fun like hell I am sure but it just diminishes the mmorpg in ways I don't care for in favour of speed and twitch reactions. It is herculean to expect a normal person to use 3 bars of skills and playing competitively because it is physically impossible and would bog down the game when action is the king.

KnightFalz

cheyane said:

KnightFalz said:

cheyane said:

Remali said:

Action combat and less pressure for raiding

Sorry to say this is an absolute negative and is slowly becoming the main reason this genre is too hard for me. I prefer the game where I can pick a skill from a few action bars of skills that gave me more variety and choice on how to approach the content. Everything done at breakneck speed and twitch belong to shooters and is a negative in this genre.

It is not an absolute negative. Some favour it and others not, making it a matter of preference save for those unable to play fast paced games due to an extenuating circumstance. A fast rate of play belongs in any genre it is enjoyed in.

I am looking at it from the point of view of using a multitude of skills that don't just involve damage and heals.  I am talking about using debuffs, summons, shields and more obscure things like slows, roots and other means like positioning that don't directly involve just dpsing and jumping to avoid stuff.

That type of gameplay belongs to a proper party based mmorpg where a group has to consider what skill to employ and isn't just reacting in a matter of seconds. Less time to react not only minimizes the number of skills on the bar but it also severely restricts what number of effects an encounter can throw up to make it more interesting. The result is more simplified by force of speed over thought.

I am not saying it is not enjoyable but rather that type of gameplay involving fast decisions and twitch isn't the forte of an mmorpg. Especially the rpg part because you're creating a class choosing skills that define your character. I would even go as to say action mmorpg severely limits the number of interesting counters you can put in fights. It might be fun but it does not lend itself to more creative options in handling an encounter.

I especially noticed this when playing Atelier Ryza that reduced the alchemy part to just a few items because you just didn't have the time to choose so you always used the best dd or heal and wasn't keen on spending you efforts making more obscure items that you wouldn't have time to employ. The turn based Atelier games were always the best to maximize the beauty of the alchemy system.

Action mmorpgs are fun like hell I am sure but it just diminishes the mmorpg in ways I don't care for in favour of speed and twitch reactions. It is herculean to expect a normal person to use 3 bars of skills and playing competitively because it is physically impossible and would bog down the game when action is the king.

I can get most of that in ESO with a one-bar magicka Sorcerer pet build, probably all with both bars and gear set abilities, and that's a pretty fast game. A full party could easily bring a lot utility to bear. I don't personally see it as an issue.

Maybe you're referring to MMOARPGs that are very similar in control and visual perspective to Diablo games, or perhaps I'm simply not understanding your point of just have a different view on the matter.