So... Who's watching the first 2 episodes of The Rings of Power tonight?

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Slapshot1188

blueturtle13 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

blueturtle13 said:

These are just fantasy books.
Before Peter Jackson, most of the free world didn't even know anything about them anymore. 
 

Just some context here.  These are NOT just fantasy books. These are the inspiration for so much of what came after.
There would be no Dungeons and Dragons without LoTR.  No Ultima, No WoW. No Harry Potter (Or at least a drastically different one).
Star Wars?  Lucas took from many sources but drafts literally had some word for word conversations between ObiWan (Gandalf) and Luke (Frodo). Certainly no Martin and a song of ice and fire.  

Others:  Ursula LeGuin, Brooks, Donaldson, Jordan, Pratchett... all draw roots from Tolkien.

They also form the blueprint for “world building” due to the incredible background that Tolkien developed for his world.  With thousands of years of history, languages, races (that change and evolve!) heroes, villains… a whole Mythology.

I agree "most of the free world didn't know anything about" Tolkien's work before Peter Jackson.  That's still true after Jackson I suspect.  But I'd wager that the vast majority of those have in fact experienced works influenced by Tolkien.

Lets be honest... related to our hobby here... As I said above, without Tolkien there is never a Dungeons and Dragons. never an ultima series, never an ultima online, never a WoW.  Might there be online games?  Maybe... probably.. but one of the driving forces in computing were nerdy fantasy geeks who drove improvement to play better and better games. For other worlds to live in.  It's indisputable that western culture would be different if not for Tolkien's work and the inspiration he gave to those who came after.


As for the rights... it's also indisputable that Amazon bought the rights and is spending a billion dollars to produce the show.  They can do anything they want to it.  They can add spaceships and aliens.  Because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should and it doesn't mean other people have to like it.

I dont agree with that at all.
There are plenty of fantasy works besides Tolkien's before and after.
 They are important for Western fantasy but not the only pieces that inspired. Overstating the importance is not fair to the other important western works within the genre.  
We do not know if there would have been a WOW or Ultima. 
D&D would have been created with the inspired influence of other works.
D&D already drew inspiration from Howard and Burroughs works and not just Tolkien's works.
These are just fantasy books. 
Made up things in a made up world that other people now have the rights to do with as they wish.  
People can still read the books. They will not change.

You can certainly disagree.  But you would be wrong.  D&D was directly inspired by LoTR.

Gygax had the miniatures rules called Chainmail and Arneson took those and created Blackmoor which was a LoTR game using Chainmail.  At some point, Gygax played Blackmoor (I think it was a fantasy convention for nerds) and formed a partnership with Arneson after being blown away.  They then worked to turn Blackmoor/Chainmail into Dungeons and Dragons.

Oh yeah.. I forgot about Warhammer... also obviously inspired by Tolkien

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Slapshot1188

blueturtle13 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

blueturtle13 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

blueturtle13 said:

These are just fantasy books.
Before Peter Jackson, most of the free world didn't even know anything about them anymore. 
 

Just some context here.  These are NOT just fantasy books. These are the inspiration for so much of what came after.
There would be no Dungeons and Dragons without LoTR.  No Ultima, No WoW. No Harry Potter (Or at least a drastically different one).
Star Wars?  Lucas took from many sources but drafts literally had some word for word conversations between ObiWan (Gandalf) and Luke (Frodo). Certainly no Martin and a song of ice and fire.  

Others:  Ursula LeGuin, Brooks, Donaldson, Jordan, Pratchett... all draw roots from Tolkien.

They also form the blueprint for “world building” due to the incredible background that Tolkien developed for his world.  With thousands of years of history, languages, races (that change and evolve!) heroes, villains… a whole Mythology.

I agree "most of the free world didn't know anything about" Tolkien's work before Peter Jackson.  That's still true after Jackson I suspect.  But I'd wager that the vast majority of those have in fact experienced works influenced by Tolkien.

Lets be honest... related to our hobby here... As I said above, without Tolkien there is never a Dungeons and Dragons. never an ultima series, never an ultima online, never a WoW.  Might there be online games?  Maybe... probably.. but one of the driving forces in computing were nerdy fantasy geeks who drove improvement to play better and better games. For other worlds to live in.  It's indisputable that western culture would be different if not for Tolkien's work and the inspiration he gave to those who came after.


As for the rights... it's also indisputable that Amazon bought the rights and is spending a billion dollars to produce the show.  They can do anything they want to it.  They can add spaceships and aliens.  Because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should and it doesn't mean other people have to like it.

I dont agree with that at all.
There are plenty of fantasy works besides Tolkien's before and after.
 They are important for Western fantasy but not the only pieces that inspired. Overstating the importance is not fair to the other important western works within the genre.  
We do not know if there would have been a WOW or Ultima. 
D&D would have been created with the inspired influence of other works.
D&D already drew inspiration from Howard and Burroughs works and not just Tolkien's works.
These are just fantasy books. 
Made up things in a made up world that other people now have the rights to do with as they wish.  
People can still read the books. They will not change.

You can certainly disagree.  But you would be wrong.  D&D was directly inspired by LoTR.

Gygax had the miniatures rules called Chainmail and Arneson took those and created Blackmoor which was a LoTR game using Chainmail.  At some point, Gygax played Blackmoor (I think it was a fantasy convention for nerds) and formed a partnership with Arneson after being blown away.  They then worked to turn Blackmoor/Chainmail into Dungeons and Dragons.

Oh yeah.. I forgot about Warhammer... also obviously inspired by Tolkien

If the case is made for all these things never being made without Tolkien (which I do not believe for a second) then why not credit William Morris or Barfield or Haggard or Wyke Smithor Wagner? Without their works there would be no Tolkien works?

Wagner definitely influenced Tolkien.  100%.

So now imagine... instead of making his own work inspired by the Cycle of the Ring... he just went in and changed Wagner's work to include Hobbits but still called it The Ring of the Nibelung?

This follows what I said above about the West Side Story method.  You can obviously draw inspiration from what has come before.  At this point there are no new stories.  But make it your own story.  Don't change it and still try and call it the same thing.  Let it live as it's own creation.

(PS: Tolkien long denied the influence, but that's bullshit.)

FrodoFragins

blueturtle13 said:

Fiction interpreting fiction.  

These are just fiction fantasy books. Not religious texts. 

As if religious texts aren't fantastical fiction ...

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BrotherMaynard

Iselin said:

BrotherMaynard said:

Iselin said:

BrotherMaynard said:

If you're going to bring white-washed Jesus into this at least do it properly:



And sorry Bezos didn't do this but millennia of racist Christians did.

Man, you do not even know what that was referring to and yet make this kind of clueless comments. If there ever was a reason to have a facepalm reaction on this board, it's this comment of yours.

What? You're not talking about cultural barbarism? You brought up a botched restoration of a very white-washed Jesus. I brought up a much more widespread and systematic defacement of the most likely original countenance.

What form of cultural barbarism is more egregious than whitewashing the central figure of the dominant Western religion?

Yeah, let's give that one a pass but get bent out of shape when it's done to some mid-20th century stuffy academic books written by a conservative Catholic from the pre-eminent culturally imperial kingdom up to that time.

Dear god, you really will use all your might to push your square through that small circle opening just to make it through, won't you?

Completely ignoring historical and cultural context (I assume you are aware of them?) to suit your narrative of two millennia of "defacement"(*) by all the artists who ever painted his face. Without stopping for a moment to consider what the extent of their knowledge was back in 5th-19th century, let's say.

(*) Defacement implies a deliberate, conscious and purposeful act; it is not the evolution of human (and thus artists') understanding.

And then you add a digital(!) recreation of a typical Galilean Semite from that area and time, based on X-rays, anthropological data and digital extrapolation of the image. (To note: all of this is based on a typical skull from the region around that time and working with models of muscles, tissues and skin. Obviously, there is no genuine source material for any of this.) Which simply must prove that all the artists throughout the centuries were deliberately altering this accurate model to "deface" the truth, right?

Haven't you stopped for a moment to consider the differences? That one is about defacing a specific existing work of art and the other about the extent of knowledge and understanding at throughout our history? That one is about a deliberate act (even if well-meant in this case), while the other is about how our understanding of history keeps evolving (together with our tools)? Are you really so hell-bent on this line of thought of yours as to disregard the historical and cultural context?

olepi

This whole argument about black races in the new show goes to the root of why I probably won't watch it. The show isn't a Tolkien work at all. It just uses Tolkien's world as a backdrop. So, they are free to do whatever they want.

In Tolkien's work, there were black races: the Southrons and the Haradrim. And there were more that were unknown. There were two Blue Wizards that went into the east, where the stars are strange. Nobody knows what they did or who they met.

Most of the 2nd Age in Tolkien's work was not focused on Middle Earth at all. The Simarillion is mostly set in Beleriand, a land to the west of Middle Earth,  a land that was covered by the sea by the time of the 3rd Age.

There was no Gandalf. He appeared in the 3rd Age with the other 4 wizards. He might have been called Olorin in the 2nd Age, but he didn't play any significant part in the Tolkien story. If Gandalf is in these shows at all, it is a major violation of the lore.

That's why this whole argument is moot. The new show isn't a work of Tolkien. It doesn't follow Tolkien's story or lore. It is a modern made-up fantasy story loosely based on some of Tolkien's work. They are free to invent new characters, new races, new storylines, etc. And if they want black elves and dwarves, so what?

Slapshot1188

blueturtle13 said:

I am not saying Tolkien's works are not influential. They certainly are. I enjoy them myself. 
What I am saying though is they are not a religious collection that can not be expanded on or moved in another direction on film. 
They are fantasy works. They are made up.
The books remain intact. 
The films and games can, and my opinion, should, expand and explore a rich world that honestly would not even exist as it is without Lewis making him focus enough to finish them into a story in the first place.   

And as I said, some changes need to be made due to format differences between books, TV and Film.  But as I have also said, IMHO it is utter arrogance to believe that a "show runner" can improve on the work of a masterpiece.  

I do not believe anyone is arguing that Amazon cannot do anything they want after spending a billion dollars.  I think the question is around whether they should.  And IMHO the only changes they should be making are those related to the format.  Internal conversations from a book must somehow become external, some times need to be compressed, etc...  but those are just unavoidable.   To change the Lore and world building done by the man who pretty much set the standard for world building... to me that is just sheer arrogance.
How many really good shows could have been made for a billion dollars that could have been made however Amazon wanted?  10?   More?

Its utter folly IMHO to pay a billion dollars to make a show based on a beloved IP and then think you can improve on it by making changes.  But heck.. its Bezos's money.  He bought the rights.  Like I said, he can make the Istari aliens who came down in Spaceships.  Maybe even make a tie-in to Blue Origin.  Whatever he wants.
 

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Slapshot1188

blueturtle13 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

blueturtle13 said:

I am not saying Tolkien's works are not influential. They certainly are. I enjoy them myself. 
What I am saying though is they are not a religious collection that can not be expanded on or moved in another direction on film. 
They are fantasy works. They are made up.
The books remain intact. 
The films and games can, and my opinion, should, expand and explore a rich world that honestly would not even exist as it is without Lewis making him focus enough to finish them into a story in the first place.   

And as I said, some changes need to be made due to format differences between books, TV and Film.  But as I have also said, IMHO it is utter arrogance to believe that a "show runner" can improve on the work of a masterpiece.  


 

Not quite following this.
This are not based on a masterpiece. (I would argue LOTR they are not masterpieces but that is my humble opinion)
Peter Jackson made films of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. 
This show is not on those works. 
This era is wide open to interpretation. Which they have surely done. 
Didnt Simon Tolkien work with the show runner on creating this show?

Sigh...

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BrotherMaynard

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

snip

That is all hogwash.

These are just fantasy books.
Before Peter Jackson, most of the free world didn't even know anything about them anymore. 
Movies and TV shows can bring new audiences to written artistic work even if they do not do it in the 'purist' way. 
The Witcher games and maybe the show helped bring people to Sapkowski
The 'I Am Legend' movie helped bring people to Matheson 
Even Age of Conan brought a few people to Howard.
This show will help bring people to Tolkien just like Peter Jackson did. 

The show is not ruining Tolkien and his books. They are still there. Preserved. 

Many of the Korean tales have been converted into film and video games and they are treated with much less IP protections than the (WWW) White Works of the West.
Most are butchered, but we all treat it for what it is.

Fiction interpreting fiction.  

These are just fiction fantasy books. Not religious texts. 

It might be hogwash to you - frankly, I don't expect too much understanding of this in an average gaming forum - but I assure you, it is a very serious issue and many countries are very conscious of it.

Don't you think that the example you gave about disrespect of Korean tales shows exactly this problem? The fact that (some) western countries are fighting it should be applauded; I do hope that Korea is or soon will be doing the same. We know very well that China, for example, has become much more assertive regarding its cultural heritage and I guess we can expect more countries to follow.

Movies can bring new audiences, true - but to what?, I would ask. Some will read the books - most won't, would be my guess. Is that what Tolkien (and other works) will be to them? Based on ignorance, told by a rampaging bull that is Amazon in a china shop? 

To be honest, your last two lines are just typical of this problem, aren't they? "They are just fiction...". Yes, so is the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky; so is L'Avare by Molière; so is The Bartered Bride by Smetana; so is the Symphony no.9 by Beethoven and thousands of other masterpieces. Do I want to listen to a hip-hop version of the 9th Symphony pretending to be genuine Beethoven? Among the literary works of the 20th century, Tolkien has his own - and well-recognised - place. Even if it is "just fiction".

Again, you may not like it or consider it important, but many of those masterpieces would have disappeared or have been displaced by "modernised" versions long time ago, were it not for the attention, care, protection and preservation. Especially in these days of mass influence of cheap, tacky and often manipulative media and general ignorance among the internet population. It is the difference between your priceless cultural heritage stored in museums and never looked at or even known to anyone but a handful of academics and "weirdos", and having it as a living part of our society that we have inherited from the greatest minds in our history.

We all know that interpretation or adaptation as such are not the problem. But there is a difference between, say, conductor's interpretation of Bach - which will remain faithful to the original composition, with a personal touch by the conductor - and what Amazon is doing here (and Hollywood in general has been doing for a couple of decades). That is simply cultural barbarism combined with a 'nouveau riche' arrogance and ignorance, plain and simple.

Iselin

BrotherMaynard said:

Iselin said:

BrotherMaynard said:

Iselin said:

BrotherMaynard said:

If you're going to bring white-washed Jesus into this at least do it properly:



And sorry Bezos didn't do this but millennia of racist Christians did.

Man, you do not even know what that was referring to and yet make this kind of clueless comments. If there ever was a reason to have a facepalm reaction on this board, it's this comment of yours.

What? You're not talking about cultural barbarism? You brought up a botched restoration of a very white-washed Jesus. I brought up a much more widespread and systematic defacement of the most likely original countenance.

What form of cultural barbarism is more egregious than whitewashing the central figure of the dominant Western religion?

Yeah, let's give that one a pass but get bent out of shape when it's done to some mid-20th century stuffy academic books written by a conservative Catholic from the pre-eminent culturally imperial kingdom up to that time.

Dear god, you really will use all your might to push your square through that small circle opening just to make it through, won't you?

Completely ignoring historical and cultural context (I assume you are aware of them?) to suit your narrative of two millennia of "defacement"(*) by all the artists who ever painted his face. Without stopping for a moment to consider what the extent of their knowledge was back in 5th-19th century, let's say.

(*) Defacement implies a deliberate, conscious and purposeful act; it is not the evolution of human (and thus artists') understanding.

And then you add a digital(!) recreation of a typical Galilean Semite from that area and time, based on X-rays, anthropological data and digital extrapolation of the image. (To note: all of this is based on a typical skull from the region around that time and working with models of muscles, tissues and skin. Obviously, there is no genuine source material for any of this.) Which simply must prove that all the artists throughout the centuries were deliberately altering this accurate model to "deface" the truth, right?

Haven't you stopped for a moment to consider the differences? That one is about defacing a specific existing work of art and the other about the extent of knowledge and understanding at throughout our history? That one is about a deliberate act (even if well-meant in this case), while the other is about how our understanding of history keeps evolving (together with our tools)? Are you really so hell-bent on this line of thought of yours as to disregard the historical and cultural context?

So you're saying that everyone who ever painted a white European-looking Jesus, some even going so far as making him blonde, did not know what the population in that part of the world looked like in their own time? lol.

It was deliberate whitewashing that is still done to this day even though we supposedly now know better.

But I get it: Rings of Power writers and Bezos evil, blond Jesus painters are just misguided

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Slapshot1188

blueturtle13 said:

"We were not interested in doing a show about the younger version of the same world you knew, where it's a little bit of a prequel," McKay previously told EW. "We wanted to go way, way, way back and find a story that could exist on its own two feet. This was one that we felt hadn't been told on the level and the scale and with the depth that we felt it deserved."

I like this quote and feel they are right saying 'we dont want to sully what has already been written we want to be in the world but do our own thing.'
That was ok with the Tolkien people too because that is what they told them they could do. 

What they say and what they do are not necessarily the same thing...

Slapshot1188

BrotherMaynard said:

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

snip

That is all hogwash.

These are just fantasy books.
Before Peter Jackson, most of the free world didn't even know anything about them anymore. 
Movies and TV shows can bring new audiences to written artistic work even if they do not do it in the 'purist' way. 
The Witcher games and maybe the show helped bring people to Sapkowski
The 'I Am Legend' movie helped bring people to Matheson 
Even Age of Conan brought a few people to Howard.
This show will help bring people to Tolkien just like Peter Jackson did. 

The show is not ruining Tolkien and his books. They are still there. Preserved. 

Many of the Korean tales have been converted into film and video games and they are treated with much less IP protections than the (WWW) White Works of the West.
Most are butchered, but we all treat it for what it is.

Fiction interpreting fiction.  

These are just fiction fantasy books. Not religious texts. 

It might be hogwash to you - frankly, I don't expect too much understanding of this in an average gaming forum - but I assure you, it is a very serious issue and many countries are very conscious of it.

Don't you think that the example you gave about disrespect of Korean tales shows exactly this problem? The fact that (some) western countries are fighting it should be applauded; I do hope that Korea is or soon will be doing the same. We know very well that China, for example, has become much more assertive regarding its cultural heritage and I guess we can expect more countries to follow.

Movies can bring new audiences, true - but to what?, I would ask. Some will read the books - most won't, would be my guess. Is that what Tolkien (and other works) will be to them? Based on ignorance, told by a rampaging bull that is Amazon in a china shop? 

To be honest, your last two lines are just typical of this problem, aren't they? "They are just fiction...". Yes, so is the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky; so is L'Avare by Molière; so is The Bartered Bride by Smetana; so is the Symphony no.9 by Beethoven and thousands of other masterpieces. Do I want to listen to a hip-hop version of the 9th Symphony pretending to be genuine Beethoven? Among the literary works of the 20th century, Tolkien has his own - and well-recognised - place. Even if it is "just fiction".

Again, you may not like it or consider it important, but many of those masterpieces would have disappeared or have been displaced by "modernised" versions long time ago, were it not for the attention, care, protection and preservation. Especially in these days of mass influence of cheap, tacky and often manipulative media and general ignorance among the internet population. It is the difference between your priceless cultural heritage stored in museums and never looked at or even known to anyone but a handful of academics and "weirdos", and having it as a living part of our society that we have inherited from the greatest minds in our history.

We all know that interpretation or adaptation as such are not the problem. But there is a difference between, say, conductor's interpretation of Bach - which will remain faithful to the original composition, with a personal touch by the conductor - and what Amazon is doing here (and Hollywood in general has been doing for a couple of decades). That is simply cultural barbarism combined with a 'nouveau riche' arrogance and ignorance, plain and simple.

Exactly!

olepi

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

snip

That is all hogwash.

These are just fantasy books.
Before Peter Jackson, most of the free world didn't even know anything about them anymore. 
Movies and TV shows can bring new audiences to written artistic work even if they do not do it in the 'purist' way. 
The Witcher games and maybe the show helped bring people to Sapkowski
The 'I Am Legend' movie helped bring people to Matheson 
Even Age of Conan brought a few people to Howard.
This show will help bring people to Tolkien just like Peter Jackson did. 

The show is not ruining Tolkien and his books. They are still there. Preserved. 

Many of the Korean tales have been converted into film and video games and they are treated with much less IP protections than the (WWW) White Works of the West.
Most are butchered, but we all treat it for what it is.

Fiction interpreting fiction.  

These are just fiction fantasy books. Not religious texts. 

It might be hogwash to you - frankly, I don't expect too much understanding of this in an average gaming forum - but I assure you, it is a very serious issue and many countries are very conscious of it.

Don't you think that the example you gave about disrespect of Korean tales shows exactly this problem? The fact that (some) western countries are fighting it should be applauded; I do hope that Korea is or soon will be doing the same. We know very well that China, for example, has become much more assertive regarding its cultural heritage and I guess we can expect more countries to follow.

Movies can bring new audiences, true - but to what?, I would ask. Some will read the books - most won't, would be my guess. Is that what Tolkien (and other works) will be to them? Based on ignorance, told by a rampaging bull that is Amazon in a china shop? 

To be honest, your last two lines are just typical of this problem, aren't they? "They are just fiction...". Yes, so is the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky; so is L'Avare by Molière; so is The Bartered Bride by Smetana; so is the Symphony no.9 by Beethoven and thousands of other masterpieces. Do I want to listen to a hip-hop version of the 9th Symphony pretending to be genuine Beethoven? Among the literary works of the 20th century, Tolkien has his own - and well-recognised - place. Even if it is "just fiction".

Again, you may not like it or consider it important, but many of those masterpieces would have disappeared or have been displaced by "modernised" versions long time ago, were it not for the attention, care, protection and preservation. Especially in these days of mass influence of cheap, tacky and often manipulative media and general ignorance among the internet population. It is the difference between your priceless cultural heritage stored in museums and never looked at or even known to anyone but a handful of academics and "weirdos", and having it as a living part of our society that we have inherited from the greatest minds in our history.

We all know that interpretation or adaptation as such are not the problem. But there is a difference between, say, conductor's interpretation of Bach - which will remain faithful to the original composition, with a personal touch by the conductor - and what Amazon is doing here (and Hollywood in general has been doing for a couple of decades). That is simply cultural barbarism combined with a 'nouveau riche' arrogance and ignorance, plain and simple.

This show is based 4,000 to 5,000 years before LOTR and The Hobbit. 
These stories being told were not written by Tolkien. They are influenced by his writings and take place in his world with a few of the characters he created. (With the help of his influences which he 'borrowed' from)
Let's not over state this  

Right, the show isn't based on Tolkien's Lord of the Rings/ Hobbit stories. It is supposed to have happened long before those stories, called the 3rd Age.

Tolkien *did* write about the 2nd Age, but the show isn't based on that either.

BrotherMaynard

olepi said:

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

snip

It might be hogwash to you - frankly, I don't expect too much understanding of this in an average gaming forum - but I assure you, it is a very serious issue and many countries are very conscious of it.

Don't you think that the example you gave about disrespect of Korean tales shows exactly this problem? The fact that (some) western countries are fighting it should be applauded; I do hope that Korea is or soon will be doing the same. We know very well that China, for example, has become much more assertive regarding its cultural heritage and I guess we can expect more countries to follow.

Movies can bring new audiences, true - but to what?, I would ask. Some will read the books - most won't, would be my guess. Is that what Tolkien (and other works) will be to them? Based on ignorance, told by a rampaging bull that is Amazon in a china shop? 

To be honest, your last two lines are just typical of this problem, aren't they? "They are just fiction...". Yes, so is the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky; so is L'Avare by Molière; so is The Bartered Bride by Smetana; so is the Symphony no.9 by Beethoven and thousands of other masterpieces. Do I want to listen to a hip-hop version of the 9th Symphony pretending to be genuine Beethoven? Among the literary works of the 20th century, Tolkien has his own - and well-recognised - place. Even if it is "just fiction".

Again, you may not like it or consider it important, but many of those masterpieces would have disappeared or have been displaced by "modernised" versions long time ago, were it not for the attention, care, protection and preservation. Especially in these days of mass influence of cheap, tacky and often manipulative media and general ignorance among the internet population. It is the difference between your priceless cultural heritage stored in museums and never looked at or even known to anyone but a handful of academics and "weirdos", and having it as a living part of our society that we have inherited from the greatest minds in our history.

We all know that interpretation or adaptation as such are not the problem. But there is a difference between, say, conductor's interpretation of Bach - which will remain faithful to the original composition, with a personal touch by the conductor - and what Amazon is doing here (and Hollywood in general has been doing for a couple of decades). That is simply cultural barbarism combined with a 'nouveau riche' arrogance and ignorance, plain and simple.

This show is based 4,000 to 5,000 years before LOTR and The Hobbit. 
These stories being told were not written by Tolkien. They are influenced by his writings and take place in his world with a few of the characters he created. (With the help of his influences which he 'borrowed' from)
Let's not over state this  

Right, the show isn't based on Tolkien's Lord of the Rings/ Hobbit stories. It is supposed to have happened long before those stories, called the 3rd Age.

Tolkien *did* write about the 2nd Age, but the show isn't based on that either.

As Slap said above: sigh...

1. LotR and The Hobbit take place in the 3rd Age;
2. All four ages were created by JRRT (he didn't "write about the 2nd Age" - he wrote about all of them); it's not like Amazon has a blank canvas to do anything they want - the world, its genesis and history, its stories and events, its rules, mechanics, peoples, deities and antagonists are well-established by the author himself;
3. Many of the key characters lived in several ages and are well-defined by JRRT; same with events.

This really is nothing more than a cheap (not financially, though) fan-fiction. I would wager any average internet fanfic writer could produce at least this level of quality - most would leave Amazon in the dust.

And yet it is all bundled in and branded as "Tolkien". And millions out there will take it exactly that way.

idalgos

The only thing I can tell after watching first 2 episodes is that it will be better to forget about Tolkien lore and presence of LOTR and Hobbit trilogies to enjoy the show. 
Many people start to compare this show with previous legendary works, but it was 10 and 20 years ago. Top Gun did great job to tranfer this magic athmosphere into sequel, but Rings of Power did not.

olepi

BrotherMaynard said:

olepi said:

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

snip

It might be hogwash to you - frankly, I don't expect too much understanding of this in an average gaming forum - but I assure you, it is a very serious issue and many countries are very conscious of it.

Don't you think that the example you gave about disrespect of Korean tales shows exactly this problem? The fact that (some) western countries are fighting it should be applauded; I do hope that Korea is or soon will be doing the same. We know very well that China, for example, has become much more assertive regarding its cultural heritage and I guess we can expect more countries to follow.

Movies can bring new audiences, true - but to what?, I would ask. Some will read the books - most won't, would be my guess. Is that what Tolkien (and other works) will be to them? Based on ignorance, told by a rampaging bull that is Amazon in a china shop? 

To be honest, your last two lines are just typical of this problem, aren't they? "They are just fiction...". Yes, so is the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky; so is L'Avare by Molière; so is The Bartered Bride by Smetana; so is the Symphony no.9 by Beethoven and thousands of other masterpieces. Do I want to listen to a hip-hop version of the 9th Symphony pretending to be genuine Beethoven? Among the literary works of the 20th century, Tolkien has his own - and well-recognised - place. Even if it is "just fiction".

Again, you may not like it or consider it important, but many of those masterpieces would have disappeared or have been displaced by "modernised" versions long time ago, were it not for the attention, care, protection and preservation. Especially in these days of mass influence of cheap, tacky and often manipulative media and general ignorance among the internet population. It is the difference between your priceless cultural heritage stored in museums and never looked at or even known to anyone but a handful of academics and "weirdos", and having it as a living part of our society that we have inherited from the greatest minds in our history.

We all know that interpretation or adaptation as such are not the problem. But there is a difference between, say, conductor's interpretation of Bach - which will remain faithful to the original composition, with a personal touch by the conductor - and what Amazon is doing here (and Hollywood in general has been doing for a couple of decades). That is simply cultural barbarism combined with a 'nouveau riche' arrogance and ignorance, plain and simple.

This show is based 4,000 to 5,000 years before LOTR and The Hobbit. 
These stories being told were not written by Tolkien. They are influenced by his writings and take place in his world with a few of the characters he created. (With the help of his influences which he 'borrowed' from)
Let's not over state this  

Right, the show isn't based on Tolkien's Lord of the Rings/ Hobbit stories. It is supposed to have happened long before those stories, called the 3rd Age.

Tolkien *did* write about the 2nd Age, but the show isn't based on that either.

As Slap said above: sigh...

1. LotR and The Hobbit take place in the 3rd Age;
2. All four ages were created by JRRT (he didn't "write about the 2nd Age" - he wrote about all of them); it's not like Amazon has a blank canvas to do anything they want - the world, its genesis and history, its stories and events, its rules, mechanics, peoples, deities and antagonists are well-established by the author himself;
3. Many of the key characters lived in several ages and are well-defined by JRRT; same with events.

This really is nothing more than a cheap (not financially, though) fan-fiction. I would wager any average internet fanfic writer could produce at least this level of quality - most would leave Amazon in the dust.

And yet it is all bundled in and branded as "Tolkien". And millions out there will take it exactly that way.

That is my biggest complaint, the show isn't really Tolkien, but many will think it is.

As I put in my earlier post, some of the characters, like Gandalf, didn't exist before the 3rd Age. He better not be in the show at all.

Slapshot1188

olepi said:

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

blueturtle13 said:

BrotherMaynard said:

snip

That is all hogwash.

These are just fantasy books.
Before Peter Jackson, most of the free world didn't even know anything about them anymore. 
Movies and TV shows can bring new audiences to written artistic work even if they do not do it in the 'purist' way. 
The Witcher games and maybe the show helped bring people to Sapkowski
The 'I Am Legend' movie helped bring people to Matheson 
Even Age of Conan brought a few people to Howard.
This show will help bring people to Tolkien just like Peter Jackson did. 

The show is not ruining Tolkien and his books. They are still there. Preserved. 

Many of the Korean tales have been converted into film and video games and they are treated with much less IP protections than the (WWW) White Works of the West.
Most are butchered, but we all treat it for what it is.

Fiction interpreting fiction.  

These are just fiction fantasy books. Not religious texts. 

It might be hogwash to you - frankly, I don't expect too much understanding of this in an average gaming forum - but I assure you, it is a very serious issue and many countries are very conscious of it.

Don't you think that the example you gave about disrespect of Korean tales shows exactly this problem? The fact that (some) western countries are fighting it should be applauded; I do hope that Korea is or soon will be doing the same. We know very well that China, for example, has become much more assertive regarding its cultural heritage and I guess we can expect more countries to follow.

Movies can bring new audiences, true - but to what?, I would ask. Some will read the books - most won't, would be my guess. Is that what Tolkien (and other works) will be to them? Based on ignorance, told by a rampaging bull that is Amazon in a china shop? 

To be honest, your last two lines are just typical of this problem, aren't they? "They are just fiction...". Yes, so is the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky; so is L'Avare by Molière; so is The Bartered Bride by Smetana; so is the Symphony no.9 by Beethoven and thousands of other masterpieces. Do I want to listen to a hip-hop version of the 9th Symphony pretending to be genuine Beethoven? Among the literary works of the 20th century, Tolkien has his own - and well-recognised - place. Even if it is "just fiction".

Again, you may not like it or consider it important, but many of those masterpieces would have disappeared or have been displaced by "modernised" versions long time ago, were it not for the attention, care, protection and preservation. Especially in these days of mass influence of cheap, tacky and often manipulative media and general ignorance among the internet population. It is the difference between your priceless cultural heritage stored in museums and never looked at or even known to anyone but a handful of academics and "weirdos", and having it as a living part of our society that we have inherited from the greatest minds in our history.

We all know that interpretation or adaptation as such are not the problem. But there is a difference between, say, conductor's interpretation of Bach - which will remain faithful to the original composition, with a personal touch by the conductor - and what Amazon is doing here (and Hollywood in general has been doing for a couple of decades). That is simply cultural barbarism combined with a 'nouveau riche' arrogance and ignorance, plain and simple.

This show is based 4,000 to 5,000 years before LOTR and The Hobbit. 
These stories being told were not written by Tolkien. They are influenced by his writings and take place in his world with a few of the characters he created. (With the help of his influences which he 'borrowed' from)
Let's not over state this  

Right, the show isn't based on Tolkien's Lord of the Rings/ Hobbit stories. It is supposed to have happened long before those stories, called the 3rd Age.

Tolkien *did* write about the 2nd Age, but the show isn't based on that either.

Even better:



Every... single.. poster... references The Lord Of The Rings.
I haven't found one official poster that does not have LotR showing on it.

But they wanted to create something that "could stand on it's own two feet".

LOL.  Just words with no meaning.