So... Who's watching the first 2 episodes of The Rings of Power tonight?

klash2def

Slapshot1188 said:

klash2def said:

There are better fantasy worlds out there. 

Go watch/read them.

Oh I already have which is why I can say with authority that there are better fantasy worlds out there.......

Right. As I thought. You wont address any of my other points which is what always happens. You and others cherry pick my posts looking for triggers. Ignore my main point and try to derail by arguing about your cherry picked parts of my posts. It's old and tired. 

Much like you are.

Your problem is with me. You understand the truth of the matter but you hate that it's coming from me.

Unsurprising.

FrodoFragins

Stizzled said:

Sovrath said:

Stizzled said:

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

I had originally thought it was them bringing in Galndalf. I realize he didn't come to middle earth until later so it's either some other Maiar or they have changed the timeline.

It could be Gandalf, there's technically nothing stating that Olorin wasn't sent to Middle Earth in the second age. He wouldn't be Gandalf, or Mithrandir or any of the names we know him as. In fact he wouldn't even need to be and elderly man, he could come in the guise of an Elf or Dwarf or whatever really.

LOTRO did this exact thing in the Black Book of Mordor storyline. Where Gandalf was an Elf named Lendelen who helped in ending the siege at Barad-dur. He was killed, but returned to the Undying Lands and was eventually sent back as the Gandalf we know but with no memories of his past self.

Amazon could do something similar to that with just about any of the well known Maiar. 

But, we do know that the character is likely evil, though he doesn't seem to remember it yet. They made a big point of telling us that fire doesn't put out heat when near evil and told us that the fire around the meteor landing spot wasn't hot. That alone leads me away from thinking Olorin/Gandalf.

We also know the name of the song that played when he fell:

Sauron was the name of the song

The following imagery seems pretty straightforward but I hope it's a misdirect.



The Stranger communicated with the fireflies but his interaction seemed to kill them afterwards?

This video covers some theories.

The_Korrigan

Stizzled said:

Sovrath said:

Stizzled said:

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

I had originally thought it was them bringing in Galndalf. I realize he didn't come to middle earth until later so it's either some other Maiar or they have changed the timeline.

It could be Gandalf, there's technically nothing stating that Olorin wasn't sent to Middle Earth in the second age. He wouldn't be Gandalf, or Mithrandir or any of the names we know him as. In fact he wouldn't even need to be and elderly man, he could come in the guise of an Elf or Dwarf or whatever really.

LOTRO did this exact thing in the Black Book of Mordor storyline. Where Gandalf was an Elf named Lendelen who helped in ending the siege at Barad-dur. He was killed, but returned to the Undying Lands and was eventually sent back as the Gandalf we know but with no memories of his past self.

Amazon could do something similar to that with just about any of the well known Maiar. 

But, we do know that the character is likely evil, though he doesn't seem to remember it yet. They made a big point of telling us that fire doesn't put out heat when near evil and told us that the fire around the meteor landing spot wasn't hot. That alone leads me away from thinking Olorin/Gandalf.

I don't see Gandalf uselessly kill fireflies like The Stranger did. Remember, he's a friend of animals, using a butterfly/moth to escape Orthanc.
It's pretty much at that moment that I was like "no, that's not Olorin... that's probably Sauron or something similarly bad".

klash2def

Stizzled said:

klash2def said:

Stizzled said:

I've already discussed race in this thread, to a nauseating degree. I've laid out my points and I'm not going to reiterate them. I have lore specific reasons for why I don't like the inclusion of black skinned characters, and those are my only reasons.

Tolkien wasn't racist, you're just unfamiliar with the source material, as are a lot of people attempting to call out racism. If you care to, you can look up the descriptions of each race on any number of LOTR related wikis. It might interest you to know that he (or rather, his son in many cases) even wrote about the different variations of skin color within several of the races.

Nah dude you dont get to write off the conversation as discussing race. You did not discuss race with me you tried to whitesplain Tolkien to me as If I didn't know the source material because I called out your racist statement. 

Saying "I have lore-specific reasons to not include black-skinned characters" is another one of your racist comments that Im sure you will say is not racist. Maybe you are one of those people who dont even know they are racist? Maybe? I dont care either way. I treat all racists the same way. 


There are no lore-specific reasons to be noninclusive towards black people in ME. Period.


First off there are no "black-skinned" people. You mean Black People (American because Africans go by something else) or Brown Skin people but you are wrong to use both at the same time like that, I think you know what you are doing though, again being so careless about something so touchy, being so passive about it, is easy because you are what you are.

I do find it hilarious that you can be so serious about a fake made-up world and gatekeep its fake lore, but can't understand why I as a black person would be offended enough to be very serious about his very real race that you are being racist towards.

I honestly dont give a shit about what Tolkien wrote. I enjoyed the Peter Jackson films which made me read some of his books in the early 2000s. I think his world is okay but not the best Fantasy world ever.

I DO care that people like you think you can use what he wrote to be racist towards my people.  


I funny it funny that people are saying the same things I was saying last night, but only my words got called hate speech by a certain group here. That's just the truth. 

I will say it again:

If you are racist, you are evil. If you have racist thoughts. you are evil. I have nothing for you but disdain. 

If you have a hard time understanding black people in a fantasy setting, but you can accept Elves, Dragons, Magic Rings, Wizards, Dwarves, and Orcs it's because you are racist. There is nothing else to say. You think in this impossible world where impossible is normalized that Black people being here is just not "Realistic" enough. 

No amount of explaining the lore, or mental gymnastics will change what you are. 

Sorry my man, not taking the bait anymore. 

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

What the hell is bait? I don't understand alt right wing talk. Talk straight to me like a man. Here let me show you:

I do not wish to discuss anything with people who think it's okay to be openly racist because "lore". You can't even apologize for being offensive which in my eyes is a double down on what you said.

You don't get to ignore what you said simply because it's a new day. That's not how this works. 

Tuor7

olepi said:

This whole argument about black races in the new show goes to the root of why I probably won't watch it. The show isn't a Tolkien work at all. It just uses Tolkien's world as a backdrop. So, they are free to do whatever they want.

In Tolkien's work, there were black races: the Southrons and the Haradrim. And there were more that were unknown. There were two Blue Wizards that went into the east, where the stars are strange. Nobody knows what they did or who they met.

Most of the 2nd Age in Tolkien's work was not focused on Middle Earth at all. The Simarillion is mostly set in Beleriand, a land to the west of Middle Earth,  a land that was covered by the sea by the time of the 3rd Age.

There was no Gandalf. He appeared in the 3rd Age with the other 4 wizards. He might have been called Olorin in the 2nd Age, but he didn't play any significant part in the Tolkien story. If Gandalf is in these shows at all, it is a major violation of the lore.

That's why this whole argument is moot. The new show isn't a work of Tolkien. It doesn't follow Tolkien's story or lore. It is a modern made-up fantasy story loosely based on some of Tolkien's work. They are free to invent new characters, new races, new storylines, etc. And if they want black elves and dwarves, so what?

You're absolutely right, and I can choose whether or not I want to watch such a production as well as say what I think about it. I, personally, choose not to watch it, and find the entire endeavor to be disgusting and offensive. But everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusions, and if they end up liking and praising it, then they have every right to do so. 

FrodoFragins

The_Korrigan said:

Stizzled said:

Sovrath said:

Stizzled said:

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

I had originally thought it was them bringing in Galndalf. I realize he didn't come to middle earth until later so it's either some other Maiar or they have changed the timeline.

It could be Gandalf, there's technically nothing stating that Olorin wasn't sent to Middle Earth in the second age. He wouldn't be Gandalf, or Mithrandir or any of the names we know him as. In fact he wouldn't even need to be and elderly man, he could come in the guise of an Elf or Dwarf or whatever really.

LOTRO did this exact thing in the Black Book of Mordor storyline. Where Gandalf was an Elf named Lendelen who helped in ending the siege at Barad-dur. He was killed, but returned to the Undying Lands and was eventually sent back as the Gandalf we know but with no memories of his past self.

Amazon could do something similar to that with just about any of the well known Maiar. 

But, we do know that the character is likely evil, though he doesn't seem to remember it yet. They made a big point of telling us that fire doesn't put out heat when near evil and told us that the fire around the meteor landing spot wasn't hot. That alone leads me away from thinking Olorin/Gandalf.

I don't see Gandalf uselessly kill fireflies like The Stranger did. Remember, he's a friend of animals, using a butterfly/moth to escape Orthanc.
It's pretty much at that moment that I was like "no, that's not Olorin... that's probably Sauron or something similarly bad".

It may not have been intentional.

“I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.”

Sovrath

FrodoFragins said:

The_Korrigan said:

Stizzled said:

Sovrath said:

Stizzled said:

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

I had originally thought it was them bringing in Galndalf. I realize he didn't come to middle earth until later so it's either some other Maiar or they have changed the timeline.

It could be Gandalf, there's technically nothing stating that Olorin wasn't sent to Middle Earth in the second age. He wouldn't be Gandalf, or Mithrandir or any of the names we know him as. In fact he wouldn't even need to be and elderly man, he could come in the guise of an Elf or Dwarf or whatever really.

LOTRO did this exact thing in the Black Book of Mordor storyline. Where Gandalf was an Elf named Lendelen who helped in ending the siege at Barad-dur. He was killed, but returned to the Undying Lands and was eventually sent back as the Gandalf we know but with no memories of his past self.

Amazon could do something similar to that with just about any of the well known Maiar. 

But, we do know that the character is likely evil, though he doesn't seem to remember it yet. They made a big point of telling us that fire doesn't put out heat when near evil and told us that the fire around the meteor landing spot wasn't hot. That alone leads me away from thinking Olorin/Gandalf.

I don't see Gandalf uselessly kill fireflies like The Stranger did. Remember, he's a friend of animals, using a butterfly/moth to escape Orthanc.
It's pretty much at that moment that I was like "no, that's not Olorin... that's probably Sauron or something similarly bad".

It may not have been intentional.

“I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.”

I was wondering about that as well.

The character whispers to several of them and sends them on their way. That's what made me first think it was Gandalf.

I thought they died unintentionally. Still, with the image they showed of him surrounded by flame looking like an eye that does point more toward Sauron.

Slapshot1188

FrodoFragins said:

Stizzled said:

Sovrath said:

Stizzled said:

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

I had originally thought it was them bringing in Galndalf. I realize he didn't come to middle earth until later so it's either some other Maiar or they have changed the timeline.

It could be Gandalf, there's technically nothing stating that Olorin wasn't sent to Middle Earth in the second age. He wouldn't be Gandalf, or Mithrandir or any of the names we know him as. In fact he wouldn't even need to be and elderly man, he could come in the guise of an Elf or Dwarf or whatever really.

LOTRO did this exact thing in the Black Book of Mordor storyline. Where Gandalf was an Elf named Lendelen who helped in ending the siege at Barad-dur. He was killed, but returned to the Undying Lands and was eventually sent back as the Gandalf we know but with no memories of his past self.

Amazon could do something similar to that with just about any of the well known Maiar. 

But, we do know that the character is likely evil, though he doesn't seem to remember it yet. They made a big point of telling us that fire doesn't put out heat when near evil and told us that the fire around the meteor landing spot wasn't hot. That alone leads me away from thinking Olorin/Gandalf.

We also know the name of the song that played when he fell:

Sauron was the name of the song

The following imagery seems pretty straightforward but I hope it's a misdirect.



The Stranger communicated with the fireflies but his interaction seemed to kill them afterwards?

This video covers some theories.

OK.  That spoiler was kind of....  funny.

But I am sticking with Randalf the half brother.

klash2def

The people that like to say it's not about race are real funny because literally every single time a black person is added to some space yall think we shouldn't be in, it quickly becomes about race.

Look at the language being used in this thread. It's "Agenda" it's "Forced" its "woke" its always something.. Black people can't just simply exist. Our humanity is always questioned as if we are animals not human. As if we are other. You don't understand how annoying this is to always see that it's a problem to include your race.. nothing else just your RACE. That's the issue.

Thousands of posts and comments thousands of videos all white people saying my race shouldn't be part of this thing or that thing. It's not just LOTR. I saw it for the Witcher. I saw it for Mafia 3. I saw it about WoW adding actual black features for the character models. I saw it for GOT. I saw it for LOTR. The same rhetoric.

"Black people don't belong here, if you add them here, write them how we instructed you to or it's forced."

What's funny is yall still have to deal with it. It's not changing the reality. We will continue to be in spaces you don't want us to be in. 

I find it mildly amusing, as in I think you are lame, but its mostly offensive.

cheyane

Does Tolkien really describe skin colour in his work? Does he describe the races and the colours?

klash2def

worldsbestdad said:

klash2def said:

whitesplain

klash2def said:

If you are racist, you are evil. If you have racist thoughts. you are evil. I have nothing for you but disdain.

Hypocrisy causes cancer.

I don't know what I expected I knew what type of place this was becoming which is why I left.

You think gaslighting me is going to do what exactly?

Saying you are trying "Whitesplain" something is not racist towards white people. Telling a black person that black people cant be part of lotr by explaining how the lore doesnt support black people (even though it does) is fucking whitesplaining and racist. 

It's just truth. Damn you are dense. 

klash2def

Ooh! Lol this one too!  When you old racist people finally die (20 years give or take!), I can promise you that Black people will continue to be in the media that you adore. The world and society will move on without the white supremacy idealogies that you want to uphold so badly. YES ALL of your nightmares are becoming reality! White women are having mixed race babies now, better stop em by banning abortion! Gay people are taking your rights away by being in love, uh oh! Replacement theory yep! It's all true! All fantasy media want to replace white people with FORCED inclusion! Yes it's all true! ?? they sent me a membership to the black people replacing white people club thing years ago..its all true!  Please don't forget to press lol to this one?

Mensur

I am skipping this bastardization of tolkiens work 

olepi

cheyane said:

Does Tolkien really describe skin colour in his work? Does he describe the races and the colours?

Yes, he does. There were two black races of men, the Southrons and the Haradrim. Tolkien also described the differences between the three different kinds of elves.

Tolkien also described the looks of two kinds of humans: Eorl was the founder of the Rohirrim, and they were mostly all blonde. The Numenoreans by contrast tended to have dark hair and gray eyes,

olepi

Slapshot1188 said:

FrodoFragins said:

Stizzled said:

Sovrath said:

Stizzled said:

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

I had originally thought it was them bringing in Galndalf. I realize he didn't come to middle earth until later so it's either some other Maiar or they have changed the timeline.

It could be Gandalf, there's technically nothing stating that Olorin wasn't sent to Middle Earth in the second age. He wouldn't be Gandalf, or Mithrandir or any of the names we know him as. In fact he wouldn't even need to be and elderly man, he could come in the guise of an Elf or Dwarf or whatever really.

LOTRO did this exact thing in the Black Book of Mordor storyline. Where Gandalf was an Elf named Lendelen who helped in ending the siege at Barad-dur. He was killed, but returned to the Undying Lands and was eventually sent back as the Gandalf we know but with no memories of his past self.

Amazon could do something similar to that with just about any of the well known Maiar. 

But, we do know that the character is likely evil, though he doesn't seem to remember it yet. They made a big point of telling us that fire doesn't put out heat when near evil and told us that the fire around the meteor landing spot wasn't hot. That alone leads me away from thinking Olorin/Gandalf.

We also know the name of the song that played when he fell:

Sauron was the name of the song

The following imagery seems pretty straightforward but I hope it's a misdirect.



The Stranger communicated with the fireflies but his interaction seemed to kill them afterwards?

This video covers some theories.

OK.  That spoiler was kind of....  funny.

But I am sticking with Randalf the half brother.

We all know it is going to be Goodgulf. You know, he helped Frito and Spam in Bored of the Rings.

FrodoFragins

Slapshot1188 said:

FrodoFragins said:

Stizzled said:

Sovrath said:

Stizzled said:

Any thoughts on who meteor man might be? 

I had originally thought it was them bringing in Galndalf. I realize he didn't come to middle earth until later so it's either some other Maiar or they have changed the timeline.

It could be Gandalf, there's technically nothing stating that Olorin wasn't sent to Middle Earth in the second age. He wouldn't be Gandalf, or Mithrandir or any of the names we know him as. In fact he wouldn't even need to be and elderly man, he could come in the guise of an Elf or Dwarf or whatever really.

LOTRO did this exact thing in the Black Book of Mordor storyline. Where Gandalf was an Elf named Lendelen who helped in ending the siege at Barad-dur. He was killed, but returned to the Undying Lands and was eventually sent back as the Gandalf we know but with no memories of his past self.

Amazon could do something similar to that with just about any of the well known Maiar. 

But, we do know that the character is likely evil, though he doesn't seem to remember it yet. They made a big point of telling us that fire doesn't put out heat when near evil and told us that the fire around the meteor landing spot wasn't hot. That alone leads me away from thinking Olorin/Gandalf.

We also know the name of the song that played when he fell:

Sauron was the name of the song

The following imagery seems pretty straightforward but I hope it's a misdirect.



The Stranger communicated with the fireflies but his interaction seemed to kill them afterwards?

This video covers some theories.

OK.  That spoiler was kind of....  funny.

But I am sticking with Randalf the half brother.

I got that from the video actually.  It could be a common theme used.

OldKingLog

Well this thread went straight to hell over night.

Tuor7

Just as a FYI, the forging of the Great Rings of Power (including the Ruling Ring) was completed well before the Fall of Numenor.

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Slapshot1188

Tuor7 said:

Just as a FYI, the forging of the Great Rings of Power (including the Ruling Ring) was completed well before the Fall of Numenor.

Ahh but what about the Earrings of Power? Why do they have to be rings?  

FrodoFragins

klash2def said:

The people that like to say it's not about race are real funny because literally every single time a black person is added to some space yall think we shouldn't be in, it quickly becomes about race.

Look at the language being used in this thread. It's "Agenda" it's "Forced" its "woke" its always something.. Black people can't just simply exist. Our humanity is always questioned as if we are animals not human. As if we are other. You don't understand how annoying this is to always see that it's a problem to include your race.. nothing else just your RACE. That's the issue.

Thousands of posts and comments thousands of videos all white people saying my race shouldn't be part of this thing or that thing. It's not just LOTR. I saw it for the Witcher. I saw it for Mafia 3. I saw it about WoW adding actual black features for the character models. I saw it for GOT. I saw it for LOTR. The same rhetoric.

"Black people don't belong here, if you add them here, write them how we instructed you to or it's forced."

What's funny is yall still have to deal with it. It's not changing the reality. We will continue to be in spaces you don't want us to be in. 

I find it mildly amusing, as in I think you are lame, but its mostly offensive.

What you're saying doesn't deserve LOLs, but it sure seems like you assign racism to anyone that wants adaptations to be faithful to the source.  If someone tells a story of ancient china, including non asians will be immersion breaking.  

Tolkien described Elves as:

The Elves were the fairest creatures in Arda, a far more beautiful race than Men, and generally tall (seldom less than six feet for elf women, no less than six and a half feet for elfmen).Among them, those who had gone to Valinor were the fairest and had the greatest skill of body.

That description is not specific in terms of skin color.  Appendix F of the appendix in ROTK describes their skin:

They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard. They were valiant, but the history of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was grievous; and though it was in far-off days crossed by the fate of the Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return.

Elves have been pretty set in terms of appearance and I don't think they are the appropriate place to push diversity.  This portrayal of elves has permeated many fantasy IPs.

I'm much more open to diversity in terms of Dwarves and Hobbits as I don't think Tolkien ever really took the time to describe their skin tone.  Humans are already broken down based on where they are from (and yes I can see how that can be problematic.  But Tolkien didn't insinuate that the haradrim were evil based on skin color.).  

With  regard to House of the Dragon, I was surprised by the dark skinned kin of the Targaeryans.  But George RR Martin is working on the show and clearly it is a non issue to him so I have no issue.

I also don't really have an issue with race changes for say modern superheroes.  but if they say change the race of superman and place him in the racist 40's or 50's, I expect that to be handled realistically.

cheyane

Not all Elves are portrayed fair like the Dark Elves in R.A.Salvatore were purple skinned.

In this case there seems to be clear evidence that Tolkien clearly stated the Elves were fair skinned.

Slapshot1188

cheyane said:

Not all Elves are portrayed fair like the Dark Elves in R.A.Salvatore were purple skinned.

In this case there seems to be clear evidence that Tolkien clearly stated the Elves were fair skinned.

Right… in some stories/legends the elves live at the North Pole and make toys.  

This isn’t that story, nor R.A. Salvatore’s.  But if they made a film version Drizt should be a purplish skinned Drow.