Embers Adrift will this game Survive?

Brainy

So here are the user numbers below, not great!  The game now requires a sub to play. Will this game survive? What are your thoughts on what the future holds for Embers Adrift?

Peak Concurrent Players

180 players, 4/30/2022 1st open Beta (event peak)

150 players, 8/13/2022 2nd open Beta (event peak)

100 players, 10/5/2022 3rd open Beta (event peak)

645 players, 10/15/2022 Release All players

600 players, 10/23/2022 ~1 Week after Release

500 players, 11/03/2020 ~2 Weeks after Release

350 players, 11/11/2022 ~3 Weeks after Release

*180 players, 11/19/2022 4 Days after *subs required

Non-peak times this game has 25-100 concurrent players.

Estimating this game has less than 1k subs right now.  That's 10k per month, $120k per year, likely enough to keep a server running, but staff is probably going to be on a part time basis unless they can generate some revenue.

Brainy

I think this game should probably look to release on steam get some quick money before its feedback goes to negative.  Then sell off to one of the companies that is buying up all the MMO's.

It might want to change its sub model to a F2P with optional sub.  

A lot of people in Alpha/Beta were saying they thought this game would easily have 10k+ subs.  Well that didn't happen, I knew it wouldn't happen, but this is even worse than I thought.  Now they are in a huge hole, I wonder if they can dig out.

lahnmir

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

user298

Brainy said:

I think this game should probably look to release on steam get some quick money before its feedback goes to negative.  Then sell off to one of the companies that is buying up all the MMO's.

It might want to change its sub model to a F2P with optional sub.  

A lot of people in Alpha/Beta were saying they thought this game would easily have 10k+ subs.  Well that didn't happen, I knew it wouldn't happen, but this is even worse than I thought.  Now they are in a huge hole, I wonder if they can dig out.

I doubt that releasing it on Steam will change anything, same goes for payment model. It's so boring for majority of people that almost nobody cares to watch it on Twitch (and watching it is FREE):

https://ibb.co/q0PS7Jq

I do have to give them credit, though, because just like previous poster said - they actually managed to release a playable product. Something that other companies like CSE with its Camelot Unchained vaporware are still unable to do after over 9 years and millions of wasted money. 

Brainy

Just release a playable product, the bar is set so low these days.  Does Dreamworld qualify, its in Early access since September.  If they release the game in December even if people all quick within a few weeks does that count?

Brainy

lahnmir said:

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Well lets look at your claim this is a hobby project.  Then why did they release a half finished game?  The reason because they ran out of money.  What costs are there really to develop a game?  Not much if people are working for free.

Someone was getting paid, that sounds like a job.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Theocritus

Brainy said:

I think this game should probably look to release on steam get some quick money before its feedback goes to negative.  Then sell off to one of the companies that is buying up all the MMO's.

It might want to change its sub model to a F2P with optional sub.  

A lot of people in Alpha/Beta were saying they thought this game would easily have 10k+ subs.  Well that didn't happen, I knew it wouldn't happen, but this is even worse than I thought.  Now they are in a huge hole, I wonder if they can dig out.

From what I have seen of gameplay videos, no way was this game going to have 10K plus subs.....It will definitely be free at some point in the near future, and the steam suggestion is a good idea for where they will be in no time.

Quizzical

DarkZorvanReturns said:

lahnmir said:

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

99.9% of their game is assets from the Unity shop. It's an asset flip at it's core. But *someday* they're going to hire an artist!! 

I don't care if you can call a game an asset flip or not.  I care if it's fun to play.  Buying assets is a way to get a game into a playable state on a very small budget.  But making a game on a very small budget means that you don't to sell that many copies to cover your budget.

Mendel

Theocritus said:

Brainy said:

I think this game should probably look to release on steam get some quick money before its feedback goes to negative.  Then sell off to one of the companies that is buying up all the MMO's.

It might want to change its sub model to a F2P with optional sub.  

A lot of people in Alpha/Beta were saying they thought this game would easily have 10k+ subs.  Well that didn't happen, I knew it wouldn't happen, but this is even worse than I thought.  Now they are in a huge hole, I wonder if they can dig out.

From what I have seen of gameplay videos, no way was this game going to have 10K plus subs.....It will definitely be free at some point in the near future, and the steam suggestion is a good idea for where they will be in no time.

There are probably more than 10k people (possibly more than 100k) looking for a game exactly like Embers or other 'Old School' games.  But those people are busy doing something else, and whatever they are doing now is their current focus.  For a new project like Embers to succeed, it will need to entice people to leave their current focus and come to it.  That's a lot of marketing, and that's the part these 'Old School' revival projects seem to forget.  Companies relying on the 1st gen MMORPG gamer have to attract those players from the remnants of the 1st gen games they are still playing.

It's a tough ask to convince veterans from EQ1/2, UO, Runescape, etc. to abandon their decades old character to start over with a new, unpolished game.

Brainy

I am still curious, does anyone have any other ideas on what a game like this can do to change its trajectory other than steam?

Right now it has 180 players concurrent during primetime.  Next month will probably be half that.  The numbers don't seem sustainable for an MMO.  Is it even possible to turn this around, or is it taking its last gasps already?

This is a grouping MMO, it needs people in the game in order to form groups.

Quizzical

Brainy said:

I am still curious, does anyone have any other ideas on what a game like this can do to change its trajectory other than steam?

Right now it has 180 players concurrent during primetime.  Next month will probably be half that.  The numbers don't seem sustainable for an MMO.  Is it even possible to turn this around, or is it taking its last gasps already?

This is a grouping MMO, it needs people in the game in order to form groups.

They can keep adding content to fill out the higher levels.  You yourself have complained heavily that they run out of content once you get very far in.  If they fix that, it will help.

lahnmir

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Well lets look at your claim this is a hobby project.  Then why did they release a half finished game?  The reason because they ran out of money.  What costs are there really to develop a game?  Not much if people are working for free.

Someone was getting paid, that sounds like a job.

Did they release because of that? I have been following them for quite a few years but might have missed that piece of information. Where/when/who did they share it?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Kyleran

Brainy said:

I am still curious, does anyone have any other ideas on what a game like this can do to change its trajectory other than steam?

Right now it has 180 players concurrent during primetime.  Next month will probably be half that.  The numbers don't seem sustainable for an MMO.  Is it even possible to turn this around, or is it taking its last gasps already?

This is a grouping MMO, it needs people in the game in order to form groups.

Outside of continuing to make improvements, in particular adding more fun playable gameplay loops I've got nothing.

New World is making a comeback, FFXIV did same, both had the funds to make it happen, this team doesn't.

Can't even point to NMS because at it's worst it was miles ahead of Embers in terms of content and had enough money and marketing to recover in a way that probably can't happen here.

Unless of course someone buys them out like what happened to Crowfall, but even there the game got shutdown without any published plan on when it might return.

Brainy

lahnmir said:

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Well lets look at your claim this is a hobby project.  Then why did they release a half finished game?  The reason because they ran out of money.  What costs are there really to develop a game?  Not much if people are working for free.

Someone was getting paid, that sounds like a job.

Did they release because of that? I have been following them for quite a few years but might have missed that piece of information. Where/when/who did they share it?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I think they alluded to that.  But lets say that is not the case right?  Isn't them running out of money a better reason than the alternatives?

Why would a small company like this release a game with only 20% of its content complete and all of its systems are completely shoddy?  They built a basic tutorial zone plus a little bit more, then left the rest of the game unfinished.  The only other reason would be a cash grab, loss of a indispensable key person, etc...

This is just 1 step above Dreamworld where they did the graphics for 1 side of a building but not the other side.

The only other likely scenario other than running out of money to finish would be some sort of scam.  Which I am not saying it is.

I am pretty sure its lack of money combined with lack of competence in this case.

Not sure why this company deserves a pass, they are charging full price for the game plus a sub.   If you go to a small restaurant, just because its a small independent doesn't mean you should served trash or get food poisoning.  There is a minimum standard you expect when you purchase something.

  

Kyleran

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Well lets look at your claim this is a hobby project.  Then why did they release a half finished game?  The reason because they ran out of money.  What costs are there really to develop a game?  Not much if people are working for free.

Someone was getting paid, that sounds like a job.

Did they release because of that? I have been following them for quite a few years but might have missed that piece of information. Where/when/who did they share it?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I think they alluded to that.  But lets say that is not the case right?  Isn't them running out of money a better reason than the alternatives?

Why would a small company like this release a game with only 20% of its content complete and all of its systems are completely shoddy?  They built a basic tutorial zone plus a little bit more, then left the rest of the game unfinished.  The only other reason would be a cash grab, loss of a indispensable key person, etc...

This is just 1 step above Dreamworld where they did the graphics for 1 side of a building but not the other side.

The only other likely scenario other than running out of money to finish would be some sort of scam.  Which I am not saying it is.

I am pretty sure its lack of money combined with lack of competence in this case.

Not sure why this company deserves a pass, they are charging full price for the game plus a sub.   If you go to a small restaurant, just because its a small independent doesn't mean you should served trash or get food poisoning.  There is a minimum standard you expect when you purchase something.

  

You do realize the price of the game and the monthly sub are a pittance in the scheme of things, right?

Wife and I had dinner at local Thai restaurant and it was $60 with tip.

I paid as much for MMOs in 2001 when money was far more dear to me, right now it's a rounding error, as it is for many others.

If I wanted to play it, the cost wouldn't be a factor, nor does it deter me from playing.

Yes, I realize there's a large number of tight arse gamers who won't pay subs (as well as those who can't of course) but who really wants to market to those who won't spend even such small amounts of money?

Now, the fact it isn't much of a game, yeah, that's a good reason for me not to play, but it's price isn't a consideration at all.

Not going to lie, for $20 NW has proven to be an excellent value, but I wouldn't have had a problem with paying more.

Brainy

Kyleran said:

Now, the fact it isn't much of a game, yeah, that's a good reason for me not to play, but it's price isn't a consideration at all.

Price vs reward is an interesting topic.

But isn't this the main point?  The quality is subpar.  With higher quality the price can increase.  If this game had a higher quality then there would be a different discussion completely.  I am not sure the price vs quality can scale in the MMO genre like it can in other industries. 

Where is that super expensive game that's really amazing but I think the price is too high?
Don't think I have ever even heard of that problem in the last 20 years.  Maybe that is the reason why the MMO genre has stagnated with low quality trash.  Why make a high quality product if people will just buy low quality for the same price?

Kyleran said:

You do realize the price of the game and the monthly sub are a pittance in the scheme of things, right?

Wife and I had dinner at local Thai restaurant and it was $60 with tip.

In this world price is relative.  Sure if you are in a desert without water, how much is a bottle of water worth?  How much is Air worth, generally its free, but depending on the situation it could be worth everything.

If you are going to sit on the corner and sell sewage water and smelly trash air for named brand pricing, you better expect to bring some other value to the equation.

This lemonade stand charity will only get you so far. If we let devs that make trashy products get off the hook, then all we will get is trashy products in the future.

What is with this touchy feely stuff where now its based on "who" made it. Shouldn't it be judged on the product itself like quality, entertainment value and price?

cheyane

Depends on what they need to survive and make a little profit. I mean Project Gorgon has like 2 people working on it and I don't think they're making a lot of money either. It all depends on what they are okay with.

Brainy

cheyane said:

Depends on what they need to survive and make a little profit. I mean Project Gorgon has like 2 people working on it and I don't think they're making a lot of money either. It all depends on what they are okay with.

Yeah but there is a difference IMO.

Project Gorgon sold 40k+ copies at $40 each ($1.6mil+ revenue).  Additionally they actually have content in that game so people that like it have something to do while sticking around.

Embers IMO launched completely unfinished hoping to sell 30k+ units sold and get 10k subs to continue development.  Its already under 150 concurrent players after just 4 weeks, probably lucky if they got 10k copies sold.  So I doubt they have money to finish the game.  So people wont stick around, which has already proven to be the case.  They lost 85% of the player base in 4 weeks.

Embers needs to do something big quick, but the question is really what will have the biggest impact.  FTP with sub?  Steam Launch?  Sell to 3rd party?  what else?

Albion was at a similar spot, but not as bad of a hole.  They launched to steam finished some content, then 1 yr later were down to 500 players and launched FTP with a huge turn around. 

achesoma

Mendel said:

Theocritus said:

Brainy said:

I think this game should probably look to release on steam get some quick money before its feedback goes to negative.  Then sell off to one of the companies that is buying up all the MMO's.

It might want to change its sub model to a F2P with optional sub.  

A lot of people in Alpha/Beta were saying they thought this game would easily have 10k+ subs.  Well that didn't happen, I knew it wouldn't happen, but this is even worse than I thought.  Now they are in a huge hole, I wonder if they can dig out.

From what I have seen of gameplay videos, no way was this game going to have 10K plus subs.....It will definitely be free at some point in the near future, and the steam suggestion is a good idea for where they will be in no time.

There are probably more than 10k people (possibly more than 100k) looking for a game exactly like Embers or other 'Old School' games.  But those people are busy doing something else, and whatever they are doing now is their current focus.  For a new project like Embers to succeed, it will need to entice people to leave their current focus and come to it.  That's a lot of marketing, and that's the part these 'Old School' revival projects seem to forget.  Companies relying on the 1st gen MMORPG gamer have to attract those players from the remnants of the 1st gen games they are still playing.

It's a tough ask to convince veterans from EQ1/2, UO, Runescape, etc. to abandon their decades old character to start over with a new, unpolished game.

I believe this to be true. There is absolutely a target audience for this type of game. A vast majority of the players I met came straight from P99. Hard to convince more to come to a game with only human race, essentially 3 classes with 3 specs, and no magic. Also, the world is very small.

This is where having a big name like Cohh interested in your game is such a significant factor. He plays small indie RPG projects like this all the time and could easily boost those numbers to the 10k range, at least temporarily.

Theocritus

Brainy said:

cheyane said:

Depends on what they need to survive and make a little profit. I mean Project Gorgon has like 2 people working on it and I don't think they're making a lot of money either. It all depends on what they are okay with.

Yeah but there is a difference IMO.

Project Gorgon sold 40k+ copies at $40 each ($1.6mil+ revenue).  Additionally they actually have content in that game so people that like it have something to do while sticking around.

Embers IMO launched completely unfinished hoping to sell 30k+ units sold and get 10k subs to continue development.  Its already under 150 concurrent players after just 4 weeks, probably lucky if they got 10k copies sold.  So I doubt they have money to finish the game.  So people wont stick around, which has already proven to be the case.  They lost 85% of the player base in 4 weeks.

Embers needs to do something big quick, but the question is really what will have the biggest impact.  FTP with sub?  Steam Launch?  Sell to 3rd party?  what else?

Albion was at a similar spot, but not as bad of a hole.  They launched to steam finished some content, then 1 yr later were down to 500 players and launched FTP with a huge turn around. 

When PG was in testing you could play it for free....I dont remember how many years they did that, but it was quite awhile...People had a good idea of what the game was like....Also PG is soloable....I dont think EA is from what I have heard and seen.....I just dont think forced grouping is a good idea in 2022, especially if the yare going to insist that people pay a monthly sub also.

Mendel

achesoma said:

Mendel said:

Theocritus said:

Brainy said:

I think this game should probably look to release on steam get some quick money before its feedback goes to negative.  Then sell off to one of the companies that is buying up all the MMO's.

It might want to change its sub model to a F2P with optional sub.  

A lot of people in Alpha/Beta were saying they thought this game would easily have 10k+ subs.  Well that didn't happen, I knew it wouldn't happen, but this is even worse than I thought.  Now they are in a huge hole, I wonder if they can dig out.

From what I have seen of gameplay videos, no way was this game going to have 10K plus subs.....It will definitely be free at some point in the near future, and the steam suggestion is a good idea for where they will be in no time.

There are probably more than 10k people (possibly more than 100k) looking for a game exactly like Embers or other 'Old School' games.  But those people are busy doing something else, and whatever they are doing now is their current focus.  For a new project like Embers to succeed, it will need to entice people to leave their current focus and come to it.  That's a lot of marketing, and that's the part these 'Old School' revival projects seem to forget.  Companies relying on the 1st gen MMORPG gamer have to attract those players from the remnants of the 1st gen games they are still playing.

It's a tough ask to convince veterans from EQ1/2, UO, Runescape, etc. to abandon their decades old character to start over with a new, unpolished game.

I believe this to be true. There is absolutely a target audience for this type of game. A vast majority of the players I met came straight from P99. Hard to convince more to come to a game with only human race, essentially 3 classes with 3 specs, and no magic. Also, the world is very small.

This is where having a big name like Cohh interested in your game is such a significant factor. He plays small indie RPG projects like this all the time and could easily boost those numbers to the 10k range, at least temporarily.

Possibly.  I'm not entirely convinced of the value or effectiveness of using streamers to advertise a product.  Then again, I'm not in that generation.  It does seem like a very narrow marketing focus, and I'm not certain that EQ1 veterans watch streamers.  If their target market is EQ1 vets, they seem to be missing the mark.

Maybe Embers can find a new, younger audience in people born after 2000, but I'm guessing not.  It doesn't have the graphics precision, artwork, or innovative game play that would position it to do that.  My guess is: Embers is what it is; it won't gain a sudden influx of players unless there is significantly more development.

lahnmir

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Well lets look at your claim this is a hobby project.  Then why did they release a half finished game?  The reason because they ran out of money.  What costs are there really to develop a game?  Not much if people are working for free.

Someone was getting paid, that sounds like a job.

Did they release because of that? I have been following them for quite a few years but might have missed that piece of information. Where/when/who did they share it?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I think they alluded to that.  But lets say that is not the case right?  Isn't them running out of money a better reason than the alternatives?

Why would a small company like this release a game with only 20% of its content complete and all of its systems are completely shoddy?  They built a basic tutorial zone plus a little bit more, then left the rest of the game unfinished.  The only other reason would be a cash grab, loss of a indispensable key person, etc...

This is just 1 step above Dreamworld where they did the graphics for 1 side of a building but not the other side.

The only other likely scenario other than running out of money to finish would be some sort of scam.  Which I am not saying it is.

I am pretty sure its lack of money combined with lack of competence in this case.

Not sure why this company deserves a pass, they are charging full price for the game plus a sub.   If you go to a small restaurant, just because its a small independent doesn't mean you should served trash or get food poisoning.  There is a minimum standard you expect when you purchase something.

  

I didn’t say they deserve a pass, I am however saying that nowhere did they raise false expectations or hype. On the contrary, they have had a very modest approach with modest targets. So they might not meet certain standards but they definitely didn’t promise them. It is an amateur project with a regular price tag, it is up to the consumer to accept that or not. Calling it a scam or one step above Dreamworld is quite nonsensical and I would like to believe that that is your disappointment speaking. I too think the end result is lackluster but I really wasn’t promised anything else. This in stark contrast to games like Crowfall and Camelot Unchained, neither of which is much better then this if at all.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Mendel

lahnmir said:

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Brainy said:

lahnmir said:

Embers Adrift is a hobby project built by amateurs in their spare time, it always has been. The idea that they are a “real” company with financial targets and all of that just isn’t applicable here. Whether all of it is any good is up for debate but they did exactly what they wanted to do and actually have more of a product then a veteran like Marc Jacobs does with his real company. They made a game and released it, everything else is icing on the cake, even being a (modest) success.

Will it survive? Probably not. Is it worse then every professional product out there? Definitely not.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Well lets look at your claim this is a hobby project.  Then why did they release a half finished game?  The reason because they ran out of money.  What costs are there really to develop a game?  Not much if people are working for free.

Someone was getting paid, that sounds like a job.

Did they release because of that? I have been following them for quite a few years but might have missed that piece of information. Where/when/who did they share it?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I think they alluded to that.  But lets say that is not the case right?  Isn't them running out of money a better reason than the alternatives?

Why would a small company like this release a game with only 20% of its content complete and all of its systems are completely shoddy?  They built a basic tutorial zone plus a little bit more, then left the rest of the game unfinished.  The only other reason would be a cash grab, loss of a indispensable key person, etc...

This is just 1 step above Dreamworld where they did the graphics for 1 side of a building but not the other side.

The only other likely scenario other than running out of money to finish would be some sort of scam.  Which I am not saying it is.

I am pretty sure its lack of money combined with lack of competence in this case.

Not sure why this company deserves a pass, they are charging full price for the game plus a sub.   If you go to a small restaurant, just because its a small independent doesn't mean you should served trash or get food poisoning.  There is a minimum standard you expect when you purchase something.

  

I didn’t say they deserve a pass, I am however saying that nowhere did they raise false expectations or hype. On the contrary, they have had a very modest approach with modest targets. So they might not meet certain standards but they definitely didn’t promise them. It is an amateur project with a regular price tag, it is up to the consumer to accept that or not. Calling it a scam or one step above Dreamworld is quite nonsensical and I would like to believe that that is your disappointment speaking. I too think the end result is lackluster but I really wasn’t promised anything else. This in stark contrast to games like Crowfall and Camelot Unchained, neither of which is much better then this if at all.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

The only think that *might* set a false expectation is the price+sub.  They are asking for premium sub prices for substandard quality.  Sure, it's an MMORPG and difficult to make, but the current state of Embers doesn't show effort to me.

Otherwise, you're correct, they didn't really promise much.  People don't seem to be able to read when discussing a *new MMORPG*.  They see the *new MMORPG* and let their expectations run wild.

Tokken

The game is boring to play, I don't think it going to F2P or Steam will help it much.

Brainy

lahnmir said:

I didn’t say they deserve a pass, I am however saying that nowhere did they raise false expectations or hype. On the contrary, they have had a very modest approach with modest targets. So they might not meet certain standards but they definitely didn’t promise them. It is an amateur project with a regular price tag, it is up to the consumer to accept that or not. Calling it a scam or one step above Dreamworld is quite nonsensical and I would like to believe that that is your disappointment speaking. I too think the end result is lackluster but I really wasn’t promised anything else. This in stark contrast to games like Crowfall and Camelot Unchained, neither of which is much better then this if at all.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I am not saying people have a legal argument here.  Who cares whether they said this or not.  When a customer buys a product they expect it to actually function properly.  What, now customers have to read through hundreds of forum pages to get an accurate assessment of a product before they buy?

Do you do this to everything you buy at the store?

Next time you buy a toaster then you later find out it doesn't actually turn your bread into toast, do you expect people to come and white knight for the company saying, well on page 582 of the manual on the website they don't actually say it is going to work.  Who has this kind of time and does this kind of research?

If you produce a game, and sell it at full price, you expect it to actually be complete not 20% of the content.  That's a bare minimum.  Additionally you expect it to be on par with similarly priced items.  I don't see why a customer shouldn't expect this.