There has to be a better way to distinguish MMOs from Non MMOs

MMOExposed

There has to be a better way to distinguish MMOs from Non MMOs.

I tried to come up with a few solutions to this such as using the terms Hard Cap vs Soft Cap Multiplayer games

or using the term SIMI MMO for Simulated Internet Multiplayer Imitation games to distinguish these games from MMOs,

but these ideas fail on death ears.

Lately I been somewhat desperate for a new MMO to play.


Take a look at the Steam MMORPG category of the store. There are so many non MMOs mixed in with the MMOs, and they even have MMO in their description.  I am scrolling through and for some games I dont even know how to get a clear answer on if its a MMO or not, since most media outlets that talk about these games and MMOs in general, call these games MMOs now. 

delete5230

Definitions are un important !

You gain nothing form a definition

At one point in history their was a clear cut answer, but the definition was slandered, an an example ESO. 


HOWEVER...... We have not had a game were the player needed others for 10 years. Just carrot on a stick games that are extremely easy, with a lot of monetary greed involved. 


We all are desperate, that's a different subject. Because their are a lot of candy games built for 5 year old's, that many here like to play.
  

MMOExposed

delete5230 said:

Definitions are un important !

You gain nothing form a definition

So how would you know from a list of games on a online store, which games fit which genre without buying and downloading and playing every game on the store?

delete5230

MMOExposed said:

delete5230 said:

Definitions are un important !

You gain nothing form a definition

So how would you know from a list of games on a online store, which games fit which genre without buying and downloading and playing every game on the store?

Unfortunately, because the WORD IS SLANDERED,  You cant other than making up your own mind from reading or Youtube. 


* WARNING:  Don't ask on this site.  People here don't seem to have a clue for some odd reasion*

Also, you had been here for a very long time, know all the games.  I'm surprised your asking ?

Brainy

delete5230 said:

Also, you had been here for a very long time, know all the games.  I'm surprised your asking ?

I think its a rhetorical question.

Anyone on this site knows there are no agreed definitions and the term MMO doesnt mean anything specific anymore.

The definition "MMO" is definetly blurry now.  Basically game devs will try to call their game whatever they think will get the most people interested.  I think there are all the old defintions, and games may just lean a little towards one or more of those, but mostly stay in a very grey middle area trying to cover all the bases a little.

When you look on steam, games have many different user defined tags attached.

Brainy

MMOExposed said:

There has to be a better way to distinguish MMOs from Non MMOs.

I tried to come up with a few solutions to this such as using the terms Hard Cap vs Soft Cap Multiplayer games

or using the term SIMI MMO for Simulated Internet Multiplayer Imitation games to distinguish these games from MMOs,

but these ideas fail on death ears.

Lately I been somewhat desperate for a new MMO to play.


Take a look at the Steam MMORPG category of the store. There are so many non MMOs mixed in with the MMOs, and they even have MMO in their description.  I am scrolling through and for some games I dont even know how to get a clear answer on if its a MMO or not, since most media outlets that talk about these games and MMOs in general, call these games MMOs now. 

The reason those terms you using wont stick is that they are too complicated.  They dont describe the genre in an easy to understand way.

Scot

The OP used Steam categories to try to find a game you liked AND you tried that with MMO! Firstly Steam categories are extraordinarily "flexible" shall we say, so that the maximum number of games gets squeezed in for you to look at, its a marketing led approach. Secondly you choose the most abused genre classification out there, the MMO; they will stick co-op, team play, anything into the MMO category.

It has been a problem for decades and has only got worse as new games types have come out and got bundled into "MMO". I am a big steam user, but I would never bother to search by genre, its pointless. 

Ralphie2449

There wont because there's no consensus, even though some circlejerks always try to pretend everyone agrees with their definition a united consensus does not exist therefore we now use an incredibly generic definition of "Game with many online players"

Which honestly is the best cuz i ve seen some ridiculous takes like "A game isnt an mmo if it doesnt force people into group content" or "focuses too much on the story" xD

delete5230

I think the OP is really hoping to find an mmorpg using a desperate measures to find one and trying other means or categories hoping to find one that he had missed. 

Its a noble attempt, infect I've done it, I'm sure many of us had because we want one badly. 

Unfortunately the greed companies had in trying to extort money from us had destroyed any chances.


* Even the classics have gone woke !!! *        

Nilden

Welcome to current year where MMO is so watered down now that anything with multiplayer is labeled a MMO. 

There have been so many threads and responses with "That's not a MMO" that it's honestly just tiresome and useless to debate at this point. It used to mean something and stood for thousands of players in the same game world/server. 

You are right on the train of thought that we would need something to describe an actual MMO. Until a new term/acronym comes along like AMMO Actual MMO or PMMO Pure MMO or MMMO Mega Massively Multiplayer we are stuck with the watered down useless identifier being applied to multiplayer games like SMITE, Path of Exile, Destiny, World of Tanks, World of Warships, Ark, SCUM, IRacing, VR Chat and all the rest beyond what I looked at on the first page of steam. 

The entire industry from devs, to publishers, to retail outlets, to journalists, to players just does not care to even accurately label a game.

In the mean time have fun trying to find a MMO and getting something like Naraka: Bladepoint a 60 player battle royal come up in the search.

Adamantine

delete5230 said:

Definitions are un important !

Then communication would be impossible.

delete5230

Adamantine said:

delete5230 said:

Definitions are un important !

Then communication would be impossible.

Well I'm speaking from an mmorpg point of view.

cameltosis

MMOExposed said:

There has to be a better way to distinguish MMOs from Non MMOs.

I tried to come up with a few solutions to this such as using the terms Hard Cap vs Soft Cap Multiplayer games

or using the term SIMI MMO for Simulated Internet Multiplayer Imitation games to distinguish these games from MMOs,

but these ideas fail on death ears.

Lately I been somewhat desperate for a new MMO to play.


Take a look at the Steam MMORPG category of the store. There are so many non MMOs mixed in with the MMOs, and they even have MMO in their description.  I am scrolling through and for some games I dont even know how to get a clear answer on if its a MMO or not, since most media outlets that talk about these games and MMOs in general, call these games MMOs now. 

I have an iron-clad definition for what constitutes an MMOG, very easy to understand, very easy to test. Its based on the original definitions from when the genre was invented and matches the players expectations....up to about 10 years ago.

MMOG = an online game that supports 250+ players within the same virtual environment.

I have zero interest in regular online multiplayer games, only massively multiplayer. With this definition, there is something objective to test / research. Just find out what the player cap of a game is.

ESO? 600 playercap in cyrodiil, 150 in rest of the world. 600 > 250, therefore ESO is an MMOG.

SWTOR? 75 playercap. 75 < 250, therefore not an MMOG (i've been told they increased the cap, but haven't been able to confirm)

WAR? 1000+ playercap

LotRO? 1000+ playercap (at least it was 10 years ago when i last played it)

SWG? 1000+ playercap

The Division 2? 12 playercap

Mario Kart 7? 12 playercap

This definition works well.....for me.....but is obviously not something used by Steam or most gaming journalists. But, its relatively easy to test and therefore has helped me loads when searching out games.

It's why I also laugh my ass off when anyone tries to call games like Destiny or The Division an MMO. Like, seriously, a game that supports the same number of players as mario kart? And you think that's "massively" multiplayer?!?!?! Or when someone calls Diablo an MMO?!?! Rofl, a 4-player game is in no way "massively" multiplayer.

As for finding a new MMO out in the real world? Yeh, good luck. Storefronts like Steam simply have too many games to categorize properly, even if they had the motivation (which they dont). Very few MMOs ever get released. If you count NW as AAA, then we've had one AAA MMO released by a western studio in the last 8 years. That's awful!

There is good news though.

Thanks to annoying pedantic idiots (like me!), who are willing to die on this hill, some journalists are starting to learn.

This site, for example, is getting better. It still covers a wide range of online games, but it is becoming more honest about which are massively multiplayer, and which aren't.

The same is happening over at MOP. They're still pretty stubborn about calling anything online an MMO, but games which would have been called an MMO 5 years ago by them are now appearing in the not-so-massively column.

Eventually, if enough of us keep calling them out on shitty labeling / categories, we might get somewhere!

Adamantine

Well a MMO, for me, needs to feature:

- A graphic game.

- A large, persistent world.

- The possibility and likelihood to randomly meet other peoples characters in any part of the world.

- Basic forms of interaction with other payers: cooperation, competition, as well as forming and joining organizations of players (groups, guilds, etc).

How many players a MMO has to support, well, I dont know. As an extreme low I would say maybe 30 ? Because thats the size of a raid force. This limit is for a private nonprofessional server with limited bandwidth. But usually a MMO would aim to support 10,000 players per server. That of course requires professional hardware and professional internet connections with sufficient bandwidth.

kitarad

I don't actually look at the tags or labels when I cruise for games. I check out youtube videos on upcoming games or if I see anything interesting on Steam I go to youtube or Twitch to check how the game plays. 

I don't consider what others label a game as important since I often find interesting games when I discard labels. They are never as important as your own analysis after watching the game for an hour. There are some streamers I often check out but ultimately if you're are depending on these definitions you will miss out on gems.

MMOExposed

kitarad said:

I don't actually look at the tags or labels when I cruise for games. I check out youtube videos on upcoming games or if I see anything interesting on Steam I go to youtube or Twitch to check how the game plays. 

I don't consider what others label a game as important since I often find interesting games when I discard labels. They are never as important as your own analysis after watching the game for an hour. There are some streamers I often check out but ultimately if you're are depending on these definitions you will miss out on gems.

but if Youtubers call the game a MMO as well, how can I tell which games are and arent MMOs? 

KnightFalz

MMOExposed said:

kitarad said:

I don't actually look at the tags or labels when I cruise for games. I check out youtube videos on upcoming games or if I see anything interesting on Steam I go to youtube or Twitch to check how the game plays. 

I don't consider what others label a game as important since I often find interesting games when I discard labels. They are never as important as your own analysis after watching the game for an hour. There are some streamers I often check out but ultimately if you're are depending on these definitions you will miss out on gems.

but if Youtubers call the game a MMO as well, how can I tell which games are and arent MMOs? 

Determine your own definition and apply it to that presented. It doesn't matter what the Youtuber thinks it is as it your perspective that matters when you are playing.

finefluff

MMO is supposed to mean Massively Multiplayer Online, but sometimes it is used to label games that are Miniature Multiplayer Online. Therefore, I suggest the acronyms MaMO and MiMO to distinguish the former from the latter.

Akulas

Are there any modern day roguelikes like rogue? Nope. Just like there is no need for massive amounts of people in modern day MMORPGs. For me the definition is if you see other players online around you it's an MMORPG. For others it could mean solitaire is an MMORPG because alot of people play it online.

kitarad

MMOExposed said:

kitarad said:

I don't actually look at the tags or labels when I cruise for games. I check out youtube videos on upcoming games or if I see anything interesting on Steam I go to youtube or Twitch to check how the game plays. 

I don't consider what others label a game as important since I often find interesting games when I discard labels. They are never as important as your own analysis after watching the game for an hour. There are some streamers I often check out but ultimately if you're are depending on these definitions you will miss out on gems.

but if Youtubers call the game a MMO as well, how can I tell which games are and arent MMOs? 

It's all about the algoritham on youtube so posters on youtube use tags that may have nothing to do with a video for more clicks. That is why you have to use your own judgement. There is no way to avoid this because so many things are clickbait.

There is also no way to enforce a definition on a genre like MMORPG. Who is going to abide by it and who is going to say you have wrongly called that an MMORPG and have the authority to be effective. Your acronyms would have never been adopted.

Kyleran

kitarad said:

MMOExposed said:

kitarad said:

I don't actually look at the tags or labels when I cruise for games. I check out youtube videos on upcoming games or if I see anything interesting on Steam I go to youtube or Twitch to check how the game plays. 

I don't consider what others label a game as important since I often find interesting games when I discard labels. They are never as important as your own analysis after watching the game for an hour. There are some streamers I often check out but ultimately if you're are depending on these definitions you will miss out on gems.

but if Youtubers call the game a MMO as well, how can I tell which games are and arent MMOs? 

It's all about the algoritham on youtube so posters on youtube use tags that may have nothing to do with a video for more clicks. That is why you have to use your own judgement. There is no way to avoid this because so many things are clickbait.

There is also no way to enforce a definition on a genre like MMORPG. Who is going to abide by it and who is going to say you have wrongly called that an MMORPG and have the authority to be effective. Your acronyms would have never been adopted.

I am thinking of reaching out to ISO to get some proper standards and definitions established.

https://www.iso.org/home.html

Anyone wanna come with?

AAAMEOW

I don't personally search steam for mmorpg to download and play.  Is that actually something you do?

Almost any new worth while mmorpg that is being developed people already know a few years in advance, at lesat for me.  I google or watch youtube video before I play any games.  

KnightFalz

AAAMEOW said:

I don't personally search steam for mmorpg to download and play.  Is that actually something you do?

Almost any new worth while mmorpg that is being developed people already know a few years in advance, at lesat for me.  I google or watch youtube video before I play any games.  

I have done, as I sometimes do for games in all genres that interest me. Not every potentially interesting MMORPG makes a big splash and new ones aren't the only ones. I found many I wasn't familiar with.

KnightFalz

Akulas said:

Are there any modern day roguelikes like rogue? Nope. Just like there is no need for massive amounts of people in modern day MMORPGs. For me the definition is if you see other players online around you it's an MMORPG. For others it could mean solitaire is an MMORPG because alot of people play it online.

Yes, there are modern day roguelikes akin to Rogue.

The capacity for a massive number of concurrent players is a defining characteristic of MMORPGs. Solitaire has one concurrent player, by definition. It is not a MMORPG.

Nilden

KnightFalz said:

Akulas said:

Are there any modern day roguelikes like rogue? Nope. Just like there is no need for massive amounts of people in modern day MMORPGs. For me the definition is if you see other players online around you it's an MMORPG. For others it could mean solitaire is an MMORPG because alot of people play it online.

Yes, there are modern day roguelikes akin to Rogue.

The capacity for a massive number of concurrent players is a defining characteristic of MMORPGs. Solitaire has one concurrent player, by definition. It is not a MMORPG.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if a game that played itself was called a MMO.

In fact I googled "MMO that plays itself" and it's already a thing.

Ni No Kuni Cross Worlds Is A Robust Mobile MMO That Mostly Plays Itself.

Chinese MMOs that play themselves, why aren't more made?

That's not even taking into account bot programs that play the game for you.

Currently a lot of games will ban bot programs but I bet it will be just like when they used to ban people for selling gold and items and just add bot programs to the microtransaction shop.

Solitaire might not be a MMO but it's more of an actual game than some of these!

Maurgrim

In the olden days and you sead MMORPG everyone knew what kind of game that was, fastfoward present day even a 64 player limit game are called MMORPG or MMO.

It should be MMO = massively multiplayer online, games like WOW, EVE, EQ.

MO = multiplayer online games like COD, Battlefield, Guild Wars, Fortnite, Hell let Loose.