Thus any skill based game can and will have classes made from those skills.
Are there tons of games that have hard locked classes? Yes.
Are there games where you can change classes or combine classes? Absolutely.
In general you could consider any skill based game free form class construction. Even games with hard locked classes are using skills to form those classes. The point being they are not fundamentally different systems. All classes are made up of a set of skills. The only fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills. From hard locked classes like Everquest to complete freedom in skill selection like in Skyrim or Ultima Online.
As seen here even one of the most skill based games still makes classes with those skills:
Ryzom is a sandbox MMORPG that has no classes. Everybody has all the skills; you don't "pick" skills. Skills are leveled by using them.
If you focused almost entirely on a single skill, like range magic for example, you would level that skill more rapidly. That doesn't make it a class, and you can always use other skills at any time.
In addition, there are no fixed actions for skills. If you want to do range magic damage, you'll have to create the action for it. You balance costs, like how much damage, how fast does it recharge, how much range does it have, etc, with credits you earn by leveling the skill. So everybody can have unique skills, based on what actions they created.
Weapons and armor do play a role; if you want to do melee damage, you'll probably want a weapon. Using a particular one, like a 2-handed axe, would level 2-handed melee dmg.
If you played long enough (years) you could have all skills at max, lvl 250. If you decided to only level range magic damage and healing, for example, you'd probably play as a dps/healer. Is that a class? Or just your preferred plastyle? I'd say that is just some of the sand in the sandbox that you made into something, not a class the game provides.
Thus any skill based game can and will have classes made from those skills.
Are there tons of games that have hard locked classes? Yes.
Are there games where you can change classes or combine classes? Absolutely.
In general you could consider any skill based game free form class construction. Even games with hard locked classes are using skills to form those classes. The point being they are not fundamentally different systems. All classes are made up of a set of skills. The only fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills. From hard locked classes like Everquest to complete freedom in skill selection like in Skyrim or Ultima Online.
As seen here even one of the most skill based games still makes classes with those skills:
Ryzom is a sandbox MMORPG that has no classes. Everybody has all the skills; you don't "pick" skills. Skills are leveled by using them.
If you focused almost entirely on a single skill, like range magic for example, you would level that skill more rapidly. That doesn't make it a class, and you can always use other skills at any time.
In addition, there are no fixed actions for skills. If you want to do range magic damage, you'll have to create the action for it. You balance costs, like how much damage, how fast does it recharge, how much range does it have, etc, with credits you earn by leveling the skill. So everybody can have unique skills, based on what actions they created.
Weapons and armor do play a role; if you want to do melee damage, you'll probably want a weapon. Using a particular one, like a 2-handed axe, would level 2-handed melee dmg.
If you played long enough (years) you could have all skills at max, lvl 250. If you decided to only level range magic damage and healing, for example, you'd probably play as a dps/healer. Is that a class? Or just your preferred plastyle? I'd say that is just some of the sand in the sandbox that you made into something, not a class the game provides.
So you pick what skills you level and say if I wanted to make a warrior I would pick melee fighter or if I wanted to be a mage I could pick to level ranged magic or if I wanted to be a priest I could pick healing to level...
One could still make things that resemble the traditional classes.
Even the unique skill refinement doesn't stop you from being a mage, warrior or whatever.
You do have a point with learning all the skills though. However Final Fantasy lets you play all the classes and really at that point your just similar to all the classes. Skills are the building blocks for classes. My point about any skill based game being free form class construction stands and the fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills.
The Secret World lets players learn all the skills as well.
Of course there are other things to consider such as class restrictions and class only abilities but skills are still the fundamental building blocks for a class.
I would also say if the OP wants a skill based game this is something to try for sure.
Personally I could never get into Ryzom. It was clunky, not very new player friendly and didn't have any combat pets or summons. Could be wrong on that didn't play it very long at all.
Ultima Online, Darkfall and The Secret World stand out.
Other than that your going to run into class systems that also have hybrids where you can pick what your class does and make a pretty unique build for your class.
Like Project Gorgon, City of Heroes, Runescape, Guild Wars, Rift etc.
Project:Gorgon has no class system. It is a skill-based, with skills advancing through use once learned.
I played it and had a firemage necromancer and a cleric druid. They can call them skills but for all intents and purposes when you combine them they are classes and it's better to describe it as a hybrid system imho.
If you don't want to call it a class fine, my builds were a firemage necromancer and cleric druid. The combat skills would be called classes in most other games so it's just semantics at that point hence why I called it a hybrid system where you can pick what your class does by making a build. From skills if you want to add that distinction.
What there is in P:G are weapon skills, of which you can concurrently have access to two, each supported by varying other skill lines that can provide passive bonuses. Any character can use any combination of two weapons and swap them out at whim with another pair to totally change their currently available abilities.
That is not how a class system works.
Classes have specific bundles of abilities, with some exclusive to their class in particular. These abilities can not be swapped out for an entirely different set at whim. To do something only another class can do requires a new character or somehow changing into that class. Some systems do allow multi-class, but even then the character is restricted to the abilities inherent to those classes and no others.
P:G is nothing like that because it doesn't have a class-based system.
It's not a preference based issue. Class-based and skill-based are fundamentally different systems.
Classes have specific bundles of abilities: Just like the combat skills in project Gorgon.
Like say the ability list for fire magic in Project Gorgon.
Class abilities can not be swapped out at a whim: Unless you are playing a class based game where you can do just that like Final Fantasy 14.
Changing class in Final Fantasy XIV is as simple as changing your main weapon. In order to swap to a new class, equip a weapon of that class and the game will automatically switch you into said class.
You can't change class abilities in FFXIV at all. What you can do is swap between classes by changing your weapon which triggers a whole bunch of other changes other than just what's on your skill bars.
Thus any skill based game can and will have classes made from those skills.
Are there tons of games that have hard locked classes? Yes.
Are there games where you can change classes or combine classes? Absolutely.
In general you could consider any skill based game free form class construction. Even games with hard locked classes are using skills to form those classes. The point being they are not fundamentally different systems. All classes are made up of a set of skills. The only fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills. From hard locked classes like Everquest to complete freedom in skill selection like in Skyrim or Ultima Online.
As seen here even one of the most skill based games still makes classes with those skills:
You can't make classes from skills in a non-class system. You can approximate the classes of games that have them when skills similar to class abilities are available.
Class-based systems can't approximate a non-class system. The classes have what they have and for the most part that's all that they have.
Ultima Online, Darkfall and The Secret World stand out.
Other than that your going to run into class systems that also have hybrids where you can pick what your class does and make a pretty unique build for your class.
Like Project Gorgon, City of Heroes, Runescape, Guild Wars, Rift etc.
Project:Gorgon has no class system. It is a skill-based, with skills advancing through use once learned.
I played it and had a firemage necromancer and a cleric druid. They can call them skills but for all intents and purposes when you combine them they are classes and it's better to describe it as a hybrid system imho.
If you don't want to call it a class fine, my builds were a firemage necromancer and cleric druid. The combat skills would be called classes in most other games so it's just semantics at that point hence why I called it a hybrid system where you can pick what your class does by making a build. From skills if you want to add that distinction.
What there is in P:G are weapon skills, of which you can concurrently have access to two, each supported by varying other skill lines that can provide passive bonuses. Any character can use any combination of two weapons and swap them out at whim with another pair to totally change their currently available abilities.
That is not how a class system works.
Classes have specific bundles of abilities, with some exclusive to their class in particular. These abilities can not be swapped out for an entirely different set at whim. To do something only another class can do requires a new character or somehow changing into that class. Some systems do allow multi-class, but even then the character is restricted to the abilities inherent to those classes and no others.
P:G is nothing like that because it doesn't have a class-based system.
It's not a preference based issue. Class-based and skill-based are fundamentally different systems.
Classes have specific bundles of abilities: Just like the combat skills in project Gorgon.
Like say the ability list for fire magic in Project Gorgon.
Class abilities can not be swapped out at a whim: Unless you are playing a class based game where you can do just that like Final Fantasy 14.
Changing class in Final Fantasy XIV is as simple as changing your main weapon. In order to swap to a new class, equip a weapon of that class and the game will automatically switch you into said class.
You can't change class abilities in FFXIV at all. What you can do is swap between classes by changing your weapon which triggers a whole bunch of other changes other than just what's on your skill bars.
P:G has no classes to swap between.
You can't change skill abilities in Project Gorgon either. That fire magic ability list is what you get. What you can do is swap between skills by changing your weapon.
You can literally type Project Gorgon classes into google and it will show you the list of skills because they are exactly like classes.
Project Gorgon doesn't have classes it has skills that are exactly like classes.
Next up Project Gorgon doesn't have levels it has skill levels. Totally fundamentally different, right?
You're right though my bad it's not exactly like Final Fantasy they would need to let you be two classes at once then it would be exactly like Final Fantasy. Well that and instead of calling them classes or jobs they would have to call them skills.
You would have to be intellectually dishonest not to see the blatant similarities.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Thus any skill based game can and will have classes made from those skills.
Are there tons of games that have hard locked classes? Yes.
Are there games where you can change classes or combine classes? Absolutely.
In general you could consider any skill based game free form class construction. Even games with hard locked classes are using skills to form those classes. The point being they are not fundamentally different systems. All classes are made up of a set of skills. The only fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills. From hard locked classes like Everquest to complete freedom in skill selection like in Skyrim or Ultima Online.
As seen here even one of the most skill based games still makes classes with those skills:
You can't make classes from skills in a non-class system. You can approximate the classes of games that have them when skills similar to class abilities are available.
Class-based systems can't approximate a non-class system. The classes have what they have and for the most part that's all that they have.
The two are fundamentally different.
I literally provided links where they made classes from skills in a non-class system.
Obviously you can't have a class based system approximate a non-class system since you don't get to pick the skills.
They are not fundamentally different you can literally make classes from skills.
"In general you could consider any skill based game free form class construction. Even games with hard locked classes are using skills to form those classes. The point being they are not fundamentally different systems. All classes are made up of a set of skills. The only fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills."
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Ultima Online, Darkfall and The Secret World stand out.
Other than that your going to run into class systems that also have hybrids where you can pick what your class does and make a pretty unique build for your class.
Like Project Gorgon, City of Heroes, Runescape, Guild Wars, Rift etc.
Project:Gorgon has no class system. It is a skill-based, with skills advancing through use once learned.
I played it and had a firemage necromancer and a cleric druid. They can call them skills but for all intents and purposes when you combine them they are classes and it's better to describe it as a hybrid system imho.
If you don't want to call it a class fine, my builds were a firemage necromancer and cleric druid. The combat skills would be called classes in most other games so it's just semantics at that point hence why I called it a hybrid system where you can pick what your class does by making a build. From skills if you want to add that distinction.
What there is in P:G are weapon skills, of which you can concurrently have access to two, each supported by varying other skill lines that can provide passive bonuses. Any character can use any combination of two weapons and swap them out at whim with another pair to totally change their currently available abilities.
That is not how a class system works.
Classes have specific bundles of abilities, with some exclusive to their class in particular. These abilities can not be swapped out for an entirely different set at whim. To do something only another class can do requires a new character or somehow changing into that class. Some systems do allow multi-class, but even then the character is restricted to the abilities inherent to those classes and no others.
P:G is nothing like that because it doesn't have a class-based system.
It's not a preference based issue. Class-based and skill-based are fundamentally different systems.
Classes have specific bundles of abilities: Just like the combat skills in project Gorgon.
Like say the ability list for fire magic in Project Gorgon.
Class abilities can not be swapped out at a whim: Unless you are playing a class based game where you can do just that like Final Fantasy 14.
Changing class in Final Fantasy XIV is as simple as changing your main weapon. In order to swap to a new class, equip a weapon of that class and the game will automatically switch you into said class.
You can't change class abilities in FFXIV at all. What you can do is swap between classes by changing your weapon which triggers a whole bunch of other changes other than just what's on your skill bars.
P:G has no classes to swap between.
You can't change skill abilities in Project Gorgon either. That fire magic ability list is what you get. What you can do is swap between skills by changing your weapon.
You can literally type Project Gorgon classes into google and it will show you the list of skills because they are exactly like classes.
Project Gorgon doesn't have classes it has skills that are exactly like classes.
Next up Project Gorgon doesn't have levels it has skill levels. Totally fundamentally different, right?
You're right though my bad it's not exactly like Final Fantasy they would need to let you be two classes at once then it would be exactly like Final Fantasy. Well that and instead of calling them classes or jobs they would have to call them skills.
You would have to be intellectually dishonest not to see the blatant similarities.
P:G skills are nothing like classes. Characters and skills do have levels.
Your inability to recognize the fundamental differences between class and non-class based systems is a you issue.
In games which are skill based players nearly always follow a template, those templates are really classes. It just depends then on how quickly you can switch from one set of skills to another as to how relevant the "template class" is. But remember that some class MMOs like Rift gave you the ability to move between similar classes quite frequently so being able to do that with skills is hardly a 'skills only' option.
I am not keen on moving around from one class/skill set to another too quickly, it pushes into this "one class suits all gameplay" idea that the demands of solo casuals have created.
Not sure I get what the conflict is in this thread.
The subject seems to simply be granularity of choice, and the argument itself demonstrates that there is a spectrum to that granularity from strictly defined classes into ones that have broad spec paths or a large pool of shared skill lines to mix and match from into outright freeform skill loadout.
If anything this demonstrates that there's a propensity to live in the in-between with a few more defined cases floating about.
The one thing I may argue on the subject, would be that while people err towards templates/archetypes that serve as class roles with free form models, it still also offers more freedom to explore novel builds and/or the game's meta.
Saying these are nothing like a class is just intellectually dishonest.
If you were being intellectually honest you'd have made note that being a Druid grants powers that go beyond the skill system which make it atypical, along with in game responsibilities that only Druids are burdened with. Becoming one is a fundamental and irreversible change in the nature of one's character.
The Priest skill line is just one of the many standard combat ones available that is no more a class than other, though the esoteric nature of some of the abilities may require more description than those in the Sword skill line.
In games which are skill based players nearly always follow a template, those templates are really classes.
Following such a template in an option in a skill based system, to an extent. The more esoteric the abilities of a class the more difficult it would be to so emulate.
Good luck doing that with many DDO classes, for example.
In games which are skill based players nearly always follow a template, those templates are really classes.
Following such a template in an option in a skill based system, to an extent. The more esoteric the abilities of a class the more difficult it would be to so emulate.
Good luck doing that with many DDO classes, for example.
Some systems offer more flexibility than other, AC had "flavours of the season" shall we say but the combination of class, profession and skills was quite varied. Rifts even though it used classes actually seemed more flexible than that within a class limiting jacket, even though more variety could be created using AC's systems. You could change your role from solo to group dungeon in Rift for example.
As so often it is about how these systems are implemented, not that one is intrinsically better than the other. Our views on any element of MMO gameplay are founded on the MMOs we have played.
In games which are skill based players nearly always follow a template, those templates are really classes. It just depends then on how quickly you can switch from one set of skills to another as to how relevant the "template class" is. But remember that some class MMOs like Rift gave you the ability to move between similar classes quite frequently so being able to do that with skills is hardly a 'skills only' option.
I am not keen on moving around from one class/skill set to another too quickly, it pushes into this "one class suits all gameplay" idea that the demands of solo casuals have created.
That is the point, in the end it is for all intents and purpose the same effect.
In games like EQ2, WoW, LOTRO etc. you select your Tank/DPS/Healer/Support and are assigned the skills that define it.
In games like UO,Rift,Eve etc. You select your Skills, that define your Tank/DPS/Healer/Support.
Yes , the skill systems do let you fool around and have fun with hybrids for solo or small group stuff , But, for any serious player that wants to Excell at end game in any if these you Must make the Builds that will deliver for Raids and be effective or you wont be doing it .. And I really like the Skill systems better ,but I also realize and with years of experience, that in the end its the same .Even in these skill based systems end game players still seek out the best Built Classes in a very Traditional Trinity group make ups. Hybrids are not welcome .
Unless of course you have a tight knit group of friends or guild that will tolerate your shortcomings and failures.
The other spin off of this discussion is people will say they like skill based games like UO because they do not have levels . This is completely false as all skills are inherently level based . Raise Archery to 60 70 80 90 100, it unlocks skills at each level as it gains experience. Exactly as a class base system does.
DDO is actually a very strict game. I plan out my class in advance because you make one mistake when you put points at every level and your build is not what you want. I read up a tonne and planned my builds and had it all printed out before I even started playing. I would call Dungeons and Dragons Online a very rigid game. If you are not careful and splash this class and that class and wham you end up with a character that is useless.
In games which are skill based players nearly always follow a template, those templates are really classes.
Following such a template in an option in a skill based system, to an extent. The more esoteric the abilities of a class the more difficult it would be to so emulate.
Good luck doing that with many DDO classes, for example.
Some systems offer more flexibility than other, AC had "flavours of the season" shall we say but the combination of class, profession and skills was quite varied. Rifts even though it used classes actually seemed more flexible than that within a class limiting jacket, even though more variety could be created using AC's systems. You could change your role from solo to group dungeon in Rift for example.
As so often it is about how these systems are implemented, not that one is intrinsically better than the other. Our views on any element of MMO gameplay are founded on the MMOs we have played.
The class system in Rift allowed for excellent build diversity compared to what many provide, along with the ability to have several set up to swap between with more slots purchasable with in game currency for those inclined. I greatly enjoyed it.
Neither class or skill based is intrinsically better as you say, though one may be superior to the other in how well it suits the developer's vision for the game.
DDO is actually a very strict game. I plan out my class in advance because you make one mistake when you put points at every level and your build is not what you want. I read up a tonne and planned my builds and had it all printed out before I even started playing. I would call Dungeons and Dragons Online a very rigid game. If you are not careful and splash this class and that class and wham you end up with a character that is useless.
The design is rigid, but the options within that rigid design are abundant... provided you know what you're doing or following a build made by someone that does. Otherwise disaster is a likely outcome as you say.
To answer your original question OP, there are a few games out there at might fit the bill you're looking for: Project Gorgon, Elder Scrolls Online, Archeage, and Albion Online are the first ones that come to my mind that I think may offer something close to the experience you're after.
In regards to the debate that's currently going on, what you guys are discussing isn't so much whether skills based vs class based are exactly the same. They're not *exactly* the same, but they do boil down to the same thing once players start hitting the endgame: where does your build fit into the meta? What kind of role do you fill in group based content? How effective is your chosen class/skills in that content? This desire to be effective will always push the most driven players to make the most numerically optimal decision and may influence more casual players along that route as well just so they can continue to do the content with randoms that might otherwise leave or kick them from a PUG.
On their faces, they offer different experiences. Once you get into the endgame though, you'll realize that people looking to do the highest levels of content will prefer to bring someone running the current meta combinations of skills or the current meta class. That's not to discourage anyone from playing either style of game though, I've never done a savage raid in FFXIV or any high end content in other MMOs and I'm perfectly content playing my way. That's what's great about these styles of games in general, they typically have enough content that you can just find what you like and what you enjoy withing the confines of the game and do that.
To answer your original question OP, there are a few games out there at might fit the bill you're looking for: Project Gorgon, Elder Scrolls Online, Archeage, and Albion Online are the first ones that come to my mind that I think may offer something close to the experience you're after.
Elder Scrolls Online is class based, not skill based. It will not provide the experience the OP seeks but instead what is specifically not wanted. Project:Gorgon will provide that requested. I'm not familiar enough with the others to say.
"Raise Archery to 60 70 80 90 100, it unlocks skills at each level as it gains experience. Exactly as a class base system does. "
Just to nitpick, Ryzom doesn't do that. If you level a skill, it only gives you more credits to use to tailor your ablities. You do not gain any new abilities as you level up, only more credits to spend when building your actions.
Skills do not have built-in abilities. You have to create them yourself. We could both be level 100 in a skill, and have radically different abilities.
"Raise Archery to 60 70 80 90 100, it unlocks skills at each level as it gains experience. Exactly as a class base system does. "
Just to nitpick, Ryzom doesn't do that. If you level a skill, it only gives you more credits to use to tailor your ablities. You do not gain any new abilities as you level up, only more credits to spend when building your actions.
Skills do not have built-in abilities. You have to create them yourself. We could both be level 100 in a skill, and have radically different abilities.
The more you talk about Ryzom the more inclined I am to say it sounds like the most freeform skill based game.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
"Raise Archery to 60 70 80 90 100, it unlocks skills at each level as it gains experience. Exactly as a class base system does. "
Just to nitpick, Ryzom doesn't do that. If you level a skill, it only gives you more credits to use to tailor your ablities. You do not gain any new abilities as you level up, only more credits to spend when building your actions.
Skills do not have built-in abilities. You have to create them yourself. We could both be level 100 in a skill, and have radically different abilities.
The more you talk about Ryzom the more inclined I am to say it sounds like the most freeform skill based game.
Which is probably one contributing factor to the game's lack of success.
It's been my observation that more often than not gamers prefer structured systems and game loops in MMORPGs, notice how popular online build sites are for games like POE or ESO.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I much like class better, skill select is too boring.
It's like Sword rank one then sword rank two then shield rank one then shield rank 2 BORING !
Usually games like you want, your still trying to build a basic swordsmen three weeks into the game.
IMPORTANT: we need skillful programmers that can make 'EXITING" classes like Vanguard !!!
Found a fellow sword and board player
Originally posted by laokoko "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
People saying Ryzom, I am kinda shocked its still around. I love my skill based leveling.
Mortal Online 2 Project Gorgon Ultima Worm, still a thing? Darkfall-its many forms Ryzom- I guess Embers Adrift- kinda fun Fallen Earth- classic
Not much out there, I thought of those but could add even more shit games.
Post edited by strawhat0981 on
Originally posted by laokoko "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
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One could still make things that resemble the traditional classes.
Even the unique skill refinement doesn't stop you from being a mage, warrior or whatever.
You do have a point with learning all the skills though. However Final Fantasy lets you play all the classes and really at that point your just similar to all the classes. Skills are the building blocks for classes. My point about any skill based game being free form class construction stands and the fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills.
The Secret World lets players learn all the skills as well.
Of course there are other things to consider such as class restrictions and class only abilities but skills are still the fundamental building blocks for a class.
I would also say if the OP wants a skill based game this is something to try for sure.
Personally I could never get into Ryzom. It was clunky, not very new player friendly and didn't have any combat pets or summons. Could be wrong on that didn't play it very long at all.
This is what you are limited to for magic:
https://en.wiki.ryzom.com/wiki/Magic#Healing_Magic
And Melee:
https://en.wiki.ryzom.com/wiki/Melee
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/P:G has no classes to swap between.
You can't make classes from skills in a non-class system. You can approximate the classes of games that have them when skills similar to class abilities are available.
Class-based systems can't approximate a non-class system. The classes have what they have and for the most part that's all that they have.
The two are fundamentally different.
You can literally type Project Gorgon classes into google and it will show you the list of skills because they are exactly like classes.
https://www.google.com/search?q=project+gorgon+classes&rlz=1C1GIGM_enCA553CA553&oq=project+gorgon+classes&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0i22i30j0i390l2.4931j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Project Gorgon doesn't have classes it has skills that are exactly like classes.
Next up Project Gorgon doesn't have levels it has skill levels. Totally fundamentally different, right?
You're right though my bad it's not exactly like Final Fantasy they would need to let you be two classes at once then it would be exactly like Final Fantasy. Well that and instead of calling them classes or jobs they would have to call them skills.
You would have to be intellectually dishonest not to see the blatant similarities.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Obviously you can't have a class based system approximate a non-class system since you don't get to pick the skills.
They are not fundamentally different you can literally make classes from skills.
"In general you could consider any skill based game free form class construction. Even games with hard locked classes are using skills to form those classes. The point being they are not fundamentally different systems. All classes are made up of a set of skills. The only fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills."
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Your inability to recognize the fundamental differences between class and non-class based systems is a you issue.
http://wiki.projectgorgon.com/wiki/Druid/Abilities
The Project Gorgon Priest Ability list:
http://wiki.projectgorgon.com/wiki/Priest/Abilities
Saying these are nothing like a class is just intellectually dishonest.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/You pick your class that defines your skills
Some games .
You select your skills that define your class.
I am not keen on moving around from one class/skill set to another too quickly, it pushes into this "one class suits all gameplay" idea that the demands of solo casuals have created.
The subject seems to simply be granularity of choice, and the argument itself demonstrates that there is a spectrum to that granularity from strictly defined classes into ones that have broad spec paths or a large pool of shared skill lines to mix and match from into outright freeform skill loadout.
If anything this demonstrates that there's a propensity to live in the in-between with a few more defined cases floating about.
The one thing I may argue on the subject, would be that while people err towards templates/archetypes that serve as class roles with free form models, it still also offers more freedom to explore novel builds and/or the game's meta.
That can be taken as a good and/or bad thing.
If you were being intellectually honest you'd have made note that being a Druid grants powers that go beyond the skill system which make it atypical, along with in game responsibilities that only Druids are burdened with. Becoming one is a fundamental and irreversible change in the nature of one's character.
The Priest skill line is just one of the many standard combat ones available that is no more a class than other, though the esoteric nature of some of the abilities may require more description than those in the Sword skill line.
Following such a template in an option in a skill based system, to an extent. The more esoteric the abilities of a class the more difficult it would be to so emulate.
Good luck doing that with many DDO classes, for example.
As so often it is about how these systems are implemented, not that one is intrinsically better than the other. Our views on any element of MMO gameplay are founded on the MMOs we have played.
In games like EQ2, WoW, LOTRO etc. you select your Tank/DPS/Healer/Support and are assigned the skills that define it.
In games like UO,Rift,Eve etc. You select your Skills, that define your Tank/DPS/Healer/Support.
Yes , the skill systems do let you fool around and have fun with hybrids for solo or small group stuff , But, for any serious player that wants to Excell at end game in any if these you Must make the Builds that will deliver for Raids and be effective or you wont be doing it ..
And I really like the Skill systems better ,but I also realize and with years of experience, that in the end its the same .Even in these skill based systems end game players still seek out the best Built Classes in a very Traditional Trinity group make ups. Hybrids are not welcome .
Unless of course you have a tight knit group of friends or guild that will tolerate your shortcomings and failures.
The other spin off of this discussion is people will say they like skill based games like UO because they do not have levels . This is completely false as all skills are inherently level based .
Raise Archery to 60 70 80 90 100, it unlocks skills at each level as it gains experience. Exactly as a class base system does.
The class system in Rift allowed for excellent build diversity compared to what many provide, along with the ability to have several set up to swap between with more slots purchasable with in game currency for those inclined. I greatly enjoyed it.
Neither class or skill based is intrinsically better as you say, though one may be superior to the other in how well it suits the developer's vision for the game.
In regards to the debate that's currently going on, what you guys are discussing isn't so much whether skills based vs class based are exactly the same. They're not *exactly* the same, but they do boil down to the same thing once players start hitting the endgame: where does your build fit into the meta? What kind of role do you fill in group based content? How effective is your chosen class/skills in that content? This desire to be effective will always push the most driven players to make the most numerically optimal decision and may influence more casual players along that route as well just so they can continue to do the content with randoms that might otherwise leave or kick them from a PUG.
On their faces, they offer different experiences. Once you get into the endgame though, you'll realize that people looking to do the highest levels of content will prefer to bring someone running the current meta combinations of skills or the current meta class. That's not to discourage anyone from playing either style of game though, I've never done a savage raid in FFXIV or any high end content in other MMOs and I'm perfectly content playing my way. That's what's great about these styles of games in general, they typically have enough content that you can just find what you like and what you enjoy withing the confines of the game and do that.
Elder Scrolls Online is class based, not skill based. It will not provide the experience the OP seeks but instead what is specifically not wanted. Project:Gorgon will provide that requested. I'm not familiar enough with the others to say.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/It's been my observation that more often than not gamers prefer structured systems and game loops in MMORPGs, notice how popular online build sites are for games like POE or ESO.
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Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
Mortal Online 2
Project Gorgon
Ultima
Worm, still a thing?
Darkfall-its many forms
Ryzom- I guess
Embers Adrift- kinda fun
Fallen Earth- classic
Not much out there, I thought of those but could add even more shit games.
Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".