I don't know anything about EQ2, but as far as that UO Archer, are you talking about one that's also effective at:
- Swords? --- Lumberjack? (Adds to Axe damage, a Swords based Skill. as well as lumber harvesting. - Maces? - Fencing? - Magery? - Stealth? (Requires both Hide and Stealth skills) - Poisoning? (requires both Poison and Alchemy skills) - Resisting Magic? - Detecting Hidden? - Tracking? - Removing Traps? - Lockpicking? - Stealing? - Blacksmithing? - Tailoring? - Bowcraft? - Carpentry? - Masonry? - Tinkering? - Mining? - Cartography and Treasure Map play? - Healing with bandages? - The Bardic Skills? (There are 4 of them) - Taming? - Etc., there's some that I left off because they give bonuses to the above list or seem too redundant.
So you see, you are talking about one specific point, but ignoring the real thing that separates Skill Based from Class Based. They are not the same, when you look at the rest of the story.
NO , Archer worthy of endgame content is carrying almost any of the skills you listed .
A UO 7x archer for endgame will generally be , Archery/Tactics/Anatomy/Resist/Healing/ Bushido or Chivalry/Magery or Poisoning (Do not need alchemy with composite bow Serpent sting)
Can switch out a couple if these but for Endgame DPS you will be in that build meta or you wont be raiding.You can get build statues and swap out varying saved builds for different raid encounters.Like some a Mage/Archer may be better suited than a NoxArcher or BushidoArcher , all have benefits for different encounters same as most class systems these days . Varied save builds and gear load outs for varying encounters, UO is no different.
I've been playing UO since its launched , and yes you can make a hybrid Ranger for ex. With Camping /Cooking/Tracking/Leatherworking and have fun with that, but you CANNOT participate in endgame raiding with it ,(matter of fact you cannot participate in much overland solo content with a Hybrid build) you must fulfill a Trinity based Class , Tank/Healer/DPS /Support , or you will not be doing end game anything at all . Unless of course you are a Tamer , but those pets also fulfill Tank or DPS . /end
And exactly why i said " the journey may be a bit different but end game result is the same "
Just as reference, I played UO for about the first 13 years.
By "end game" you're talking about those huge PvP battles in the dungeons, right? Where the zergs dominated? Not everyone wants to play that.
And it has nothing to do with the Skill vs. Class systems discussion. You're in effect ignoring everything but your "end game" PvP game play that you like.
Completely wrong .
I am referring to endgame PVE content .
What's that then? I saw the summon MOB thing in the wilderness on Trammel. Something different? You did not need those full on PvP builds for what I saw. And it still doesn't have anything to do with the topic. Lots of players had any number of builds like I mentioned. They were doing different things.
False, and if you have not played in 10+ years as you said , your opinion is surely skewed . Much as been added and changed in that time , maybe try playing in the current decade to form a proper opinion on UO .
You have been absent from near 1/2 the games lifespan , and giving advice .
There are NOT full on PVP builds as you keep trying to detract to PVP , those are PVE builds that work very well .
I don't know anything about EQ2, but as far as that UO Archer, are you talking about one that's also effective at:
- Swords? --- Lumberjack? (Adds to Axe damage, a Swords based Skill. as well as lumber harvesting. - Maces? - Fencing? - Magery? - Stealth? (Requires both Hide and Stealth skills) - Poisoning? (requires both Poison and Alchemy skills) - Resisting Magic? - Detecting Hidden? - Tracking? - Removing Traps? - Lockpicking? - Stealing? - Blacksmithing? - Tailoring? - Bowcraft? - Carpentry? - Masonry? - Tinkering? - Mining? - Cartography and Treasure Map play? - Healing with bandages? - The Bardic Skills? (There are 4 of them) - Taming? - Etc., there's some that I left off because they give bonuses to the above list or seem too redundant.
So you see, you are talking about one specific point, but ignoring the real thing that separates Skill Based from Class Based. They are not the same, when you look at the rest of the story.
NO , Archer worthy of endgame content is carrying almost any of the skills you listed .
A UO 7x archer for endgame will generally be , Archery/Tactics/Anatomy/Resist/Healing/ Bushido or Chivalry/Magery or Poisoning (Do not need alchemy with composite bow Serpent sting)
Can switch out a couple if these but for Endgame DPS you will be in that build meta or you wont be raiding.You can get build statues and swap out varying saved builds for different raid encounters.Like some a Mage/Archer may be better suited than a NoxArcher or BushidoArcher , all have benefits for different encounters same as most class systems these days . Varied save builds and gear load outs for varying encounters, UO is no different.
I've been playing UO since its launched , and yes you can make a hybrid Ranger for ex. With Camping /Cooking/Tracking/Leatherworking and have fun with that, but you CANNOT participate in endgame raiding with it ,(matter of fact you cannot participate in much overland solo content with a Hybrid build) you must fulfill a Trinity based Class , Tank/Healer/DPS /Support , or you will not be doing end game anything at all . Unless of course you are a Tamer , but those pets also fulfill Tank or DPS . /end
And exactly why i said " the journey may be a bit different but end game result is the same "
Just as reference, I played UO for about the first 13 years.
By "end game" you're talking about those huge PvP battles in the dungeons, right? Where the zergs dominated? Not everyone wants to play that.
And it has nothing to do with the Skill vs. Class systems discussion. You're in effect ignoring everything but your "end game" PvP game play that you like.
Completely wrong .
I am referring to endgame PVE content .
What's that then? I saw the summon MOB thing in the wilderness on Trammel. Something different? You did not need those full on PvP builds for what I saw. And it still doesn't have anything to do with the topic. Lots of players had any number of builds like I mentioned. They were doing different things.
False, and if you have not played in 10+ years as you said , your opinion is surely skewed . Much as been added and changed in that time , maybe try playing in the current decade to form a proper opinion on UO .
You have been absent from near 1/2 the games lifespan , and giving advice .
There are NOT full on PVP builds as you keep trying to detract to PVP , those are PVE builds that work very well .
Oh come on. Everybody knows that PvP is much harder than PvE. And that the "risk vs. reward" demands that the harder content give greater reward.
So it's obvious that the PvP side got greater rewards and, couple with greater "risk" is thus what anyone would call the "end game" content.
But you can make your case by answering my question instead of attacking my intelligence. Primarily, how has the PvE side made those wilderness summonings of Boss Mobs tougher than they were.
Since the PvP side was mixed right in with their own Boss Mobs, I'm expecting to hear how the PvE side has so much tougher Boss Mobs to account for the lack of PvP.
Still, though, as before, none of this is about the topic at hand. And Skill Based is not the same as Class Based.
I don't know anything about EQ2, but as far as that UO Archer, are you talking about one that's also effective at:
- Swords? --- Lumberjack? (Adds to Axe damage, a Swords based Skill. as well as lumber harvesting. - Maces? - Fencing? - Magery? - Stealth? (Requires both Hide and Stealth skills) - Poisoning? (requires both Poison and Alchemy skills) - Resisting Magic? - Detecting Hidden? - Tracking? - Removing Traps? - Lockpicking? - Stealing? - Blacksmithing? - Tailoring? - Bowcraft? - Carpentry? - Masonry? - Tinkering? - Mining? - Cartography and Treasure Map play? - Healing with bandages? - The Bardic Skills? (There are 4 of them) - Taming? - Etc., there's some that I left off because they give bonuses to the above list or seem too redundant.
So you see, you are talking about one specific point, but ignoring the real thing that separates Skill Based from Class Based. They are not the same, when you look at the rest of the story.
NO , Archer worthy of endgame content is carrying almost any of the skills you listed .
A UO 7x archer for endgame will generally be , Archery/Tactics/Anatomy/Resist/Healing/ Bushido or Chivalry/Magery or Poisoning (Do not need alchemy with composite bow Serpent sting)
Can switch out a couple if these but for Endgame DPS you will be in that build meta or you wont be raiding.You can get build statues and swap out varying saved builds for different raid encounters.Like some a Mage/Archer may be better suited than a NoxArcher or BushidoArcher , all have benefits for different encounters same as most class systems these days . Varied save builds and gear load outs for varying encounters, UO is no different.
I've been playing UO since its launched , and yes you can make a hybrid Ranger for ex. With Camping /Cooking/Tracking/Leatherworking and have fun with that, but you CANNOT participate in endgame raiding with it ,(matter of fact you cannot participate in much overland solo content with a Hybrid build) you must fulfill a Trinity based Class , Tank/Healer/DPS /Support , or you will not be doing end game anything at all . Unless of course you are a Tamer , but those pets also fulfill Tank or DPS . /end
And exactly why i said " the journey may be a bit different but end game result is the same "
Just as reference, I played UO for about the first 13 years.
By "end game" you're talking about those huge PvP battles in the dungeons, right? Where the zergs dominated? Not everyone wants to play that.
And it has nothing to do with the Skill vs. Class systems discussion. You're in effect ignoring everything but your "end game" PvP game play that you like.
Completely wrong .
I am referring to endgame PVE content .
What's that then? I saw the summon MOB thing in the wilderness on Trammel. Something different? You did not need those full on PvP builds for what I saw. And it still doesn't have anything to do with the topic. Lots of players had any number of builds like I mentioned. They were doing different things.
False, and if you have not played in 10+ years as you said , your opinion is surely skewed . Much as been added and changed in that time , maybe try playing in the current decade to form a proper opinion on UO .
You have been absent from near 1/2 the games lifespan , and giving advice .
There are NOT full on PVP builds as you keep trying to detract to PVP , those are PVE builds that work very well .
Oh come on. Everybody knows that PvP is much harder than PvE. And that the "risk vs. reward" demands that the harder content give greater reward.
So it's obvious that the PvP side got greater rewards and, couple with greater "risk" is thus what anyone would call the "end game" content.
But you can make your case by answering my question instead of attacking my intelligence. Primarily, how has the PvE side made those wilderness summonings of Boss Mobs tougher than they were.
Since the PvP side was mixed right in with their own Boss Mobs, I'm expecting to hear how the PvE side has so much tougher Boss Mobs to account for the lack of PvP.
Still, though, as before, none of this is about the topic at hand. And Skill Based is not the same as Class Based.
From someone that actually plays UO in both Trammel and Fel , it's exactly the same as a class based system, you are basing your opinion on a game you have not touched this decade , the irony .
By very design your character always works the same in a skillbased system.
No, it doesn't.
I'm starting to get the feeling we talk different languages.
Yes it most certainly does.
In systems like for example D&D, despite being class based, all core mechanisms stay the same, no matter what you do.
For starters thats because in D&D you can mix classes, anyway.
Thats what you're describing.
If you have strict class systems, you can change these core dynamics.
And yes you can support all kinds of things on D&D or skillbased systems, but you cannot completely turn around how the character works on different classes.
And sky is the limit for this, as long as you have pure classes and not mixed classes like D&D, or skillbased systems.
Heck you could even go crazy and for example make one class work completely twitch based, relying in performance on the reflexes of the player, while another could be completely roleplaying based, the performance of the character exclusively depending upon the character values alone.
Per your last sentence, why can't you do that with Skill Based systems? (Regardless of whether it's a good idea or not.)
I don't know anything about EQ2, but as far as that UO Archer, are you talking about one that's also effective at:
- Swords? --- Lumberjack? (Adds to Axe damage, a Swords based Skill. as well as lumber harvesting. - Maces? - Fencing? - Magery? - Stealth? (Requires both Hide and Stealth skills) - Poisoning? (requires both Poison and Alchemy skills) - Resisting Magic? - Detecting Hidden? - Tracking? - Removing Traps? - Lockpicking? - Stealing? - Blacksmithing? - Tailoring? - Bowcraft? - Carpentry? - Masonry? - Tinkering? - Mining? - Cartography and Treasure Map play? - Healing with bandages? - The Bardic Skills? (There are 4 of them) - Taming? - Etc., there's some that I left off because they give bonuses to the above list or seem too redundant.
So you see, you are talking about one specific point, but ignoring the real thing that separates Skill Based from Class Based. They are not the same, when you look at the rest of the story.
NO , Archer worthy of endgame content is carrying almost any of the skills you listed .
A UO 7x archer for endgame will generally be , Archery/Tactics/Anatomy/Resist/Healing/ Bushido or Chivalry/Magery or Poisoning (Do not need alchemy with composite bow Serpent sting)
Can switch out a couple if these but for Endgame DPS you will be in that build meta or you wont be raiding.You can get build statues and swap out varying saved builds for different raid encounters.Like some a Mage/Archer may be better suited than a NoxArcher or BushidoArcher , all have benefits for different encounters same as most class systems these days . Varied save builds and gear load outs for varying encounters, UO is no different.
I've been playing UO since its launched , and yes you can make a hybrid Ranger for ex. With Camping /Cooking/Tracking/Leatherworking and have fun with that, but you CANNOT participate in endgame raiding with it ,(matter of fact you cannot participate in much overland solo content with a Hybrid build) you must fulfill a Trinity based Class , Tank/Healer/DPS /Support , or you will not be doing end game anything at all . Unless of course you are a Tamer , but those pets also fulfill Tank or DPS . /end
And exactly why i said " the journey may be a bit different but end game result is the same "
Just as reference, I played UO for about the first 13 years.
By "end game" you're talking about those huge PvP battles in the dungeons, right? Where the zergs dominated? Not everyone wants to play that.
And it has nothing to do with the Skill vs. Class systems discussion. You're in effect ignoring everything but your "end game" PvP game play that you like.
Completely wrong .
I am referring to endgame PVE content .
What's that then? I saw the summon MOB thing in the wilderness on Trammel. Something different? You did not need those full on PvP builds for what I saw. And it still doesn't have anything to do with the topic. Lots of players had any number of builds like I mentioned. They were doing different things.
False, and if you have not played in 10+ years as you said , your opinion is surely skewed . Much as been added and changed in that time , maybe try playing in the current decade to form a proper opinion on UO .
You have been absent from near 1/2 the games lifespan , and giving advice .
There are NOT full on PVP builds as you keep trying to detract to PVP , those are PVE builds that work very well .
Oh come on. Everybody knows that PvP is much harder than PvE. And that the "risk vs. reward" demands that the harder content give greater reward.
So it's obvious that the PvP side got greater rewards and, couple with greater "risk" is thus what anyone would call the "end game" content.
But you can make your case by answering my question instead of attacking my intelligence. Primarily, how has the PvE side made those wilderness summonings of Boss Mobs tougher than they were.
Since the PvP side was mixed right in with their own Boss Mobs, I'm expecting to hear how the PvE side has so much tougher Boss Mobs to account for the lack of PvP.
Still, though, as before, none of this is about the topic at hand. And Skill Based is not the same as Class Based.
From someone that actually plays UO in both Trammel and Fel , it's exactly the same as a class based system, you are basing your opinion on a game you have not touched this decade , the irony .
We're talking about the systems here, not a set of builds than mimic a Class Based system. What Class based games do you know of that allows the kind of customizations that I mentioned earlier?
Edit to add: I did play UO from the first day on through those years. So in effect I did play the PvP side too. And I was a damn good PvPer, fought with and against the best. Other than "og", the most feared PKer while he played UO, I can't remember the names, sadly.
Funny story, I once went into Covetous, before I knew who "og" was, on the first level to get Harpy Feathers. There were a number of us there doing that. Bunches of players kept running out in small groups, and eventually we asked them what if something was going on. No one answered us at first, they just kept on running out. Finally someone did answer, with a simple "OG!!!" lol. None of us knew what that meant, but another player running out stopped long enough to explained that he was the worst of the worst PKers. That he "slept in walls of fire." The guy actually caused dungeons to clear out just by his reputation. I had to laugh at that.
I guess og (pronounced "oh gee") was well known in other games too. He was a member of the SOB, Shadows of Britannia, which was a guild full of excellent PvPers. Including Spectre, their leader, who organized the building of the first Mage Tower. Spectre invited me to join them at one point. But I had to decline because I didn't PK. I did join a great Anti-PK guild called The Eldar (LDR) and fought in many battles.
Some cool stories I have many of my own , UO is great for that. However the point I have been making in this thread and stand by, Is that you can make classes in UO , particularly you can make exact functioning Trinity classes in UO. I am very much aware of all its systems having played since it launched to present time.
Anyone that plays UO is aware of this and actively do it . And yes everyone has there odd Hybrids for fooling around with .
But you certainly can make classes in UO , no doubt about it.
Some cool stories I have many of my own , UO is great for that. However the point I have been making in this thread and stand by, Is that you can make classes in UO , particularly you can make exact functioning Trinity classes in UO. I am very much aware of all its systems having played since it launched to present time.
Anyone that plays UO is aware of this and actively do it . And yes everyone has there odd Hybrids for fooling around with .
But you certainly can make classes in UO , no doubt about it.
Oh yeah, I agree. I've said that myself in the past. I've pointed out that players often called their characters a "Pure Fighter" or "Pure Mage", for example.
But with a great Skill Based system like UO's you can do so much more. Those "odd Hybrids for fooling around with" are a lot of fun, and practical for some things. With a limited set of character slots, you can make a "Pure Gatherer" with just enough combat ability to survive the MOBs in the places you go. The "Fishing Council of Britannia" was one of those oddball builds, and look where that went. So too were the Orc Clans, in a way. Although they also fit in a Class system like you're talking about, except for gear maybe.
And what about the characters that tended Kazola's Tavern? Bakers! (Or whatever they had for skills.)
The whole point is that Skill Based games allow it all, and choices for any occasion. And UO was by far the most fun game in a wider sense of scope, than any other game.
I truly miss the early years of UO when it was populated by such a wide range of player types, and so social and interesting in so many ways. It wasn't just the Skill system, either. It was the "Worldly Sandbox" design, too.
Oh God, the stories! So many stories and memories.
A classed based system creates limitations to what abilities you have. For example, in ESO I want to play a character with a bear pet that wields a fire whip. Can't do it. Why? Fire whip and bear pet come from 2 different classes. No character will ever be able to do that. Obviously class based.
In a skill based system, you could do that. Mix up any combination of skills. But what if I can only pick 6 skills? It can be any combination, but no more than 6. To me, that is also a class based system, where the player can create a unique custom class. Skyrim is like that. I never played UO, but it sounds like that too. You can pick skills, but only some of them, not all. I'd call that a hybrid system.
Ryzom has skills, and everybody has all of them all of the time. A truly open skill based system. You could decide to only level some of the skills, in order to fill a particular role, but a role is not a class.
No Man's Sky isn't class or skill based. The player has no skills at all, no attributes, nothing to level. What you can do is based on what kind of items you have equipped. If I equip a gun, does that mean I'm a miner? Or does the gun immobilize the enemy? Damage the enemy? It depends on what you have slotted in the gun. A single gun can do all three, or you could specialize a gun for each task.
Another way to look at it is: do you make alts? In a class based system, you make alts to try out different combinations of skills to see how that particular set fulfills a role. In a fully open skill based system, or in a system like NMS, you don't make alts. Why? Because every character can do everything without limitation. No point to making an alt.
A classed based system creates limitations to what abilities you have. For example, in ESO I want to play a character with a bear pet that wields a fire whip. Can't do it. Why? Fire whip and bear pet come from 2 different classes. No character will ever be able to do that. Obviously class based.
In a skill based system, you could do that. Mix up any combination of skills. But what if I can only pick 6 skills? It can be any combination, but no more than 6. To me, that is also a class based system, where the player can create a unique custom class. Skyrim is like that. I never played UO, but it sounds like that too. You can pick skills, but only some of them, not all. I'd call that a hybrid system.
Ryzom has skills, and everybody has all of them all of the time. A truly open skill based system. You could decide to only level some of the skills, in order to fill a particular role, but a role is not a class.
No Man's Sky isn't class or skill based. The player has no skills at all, no attributes, nothing to level. What you can do is based on what kind of items you have equipped. If I equip a gun, does that mean I'm a miner? Or does the gun immobilize the enemy? Damage the enemy? It depends on what you have slotted in the gun. A single gun can do all three, or you could specialize a gun for each task.
Another way to look at it is: do you make alts? In a class based system, you make alts to try out different combinations of skills to see how that particular set fulfills a role. In a fully open skill based system, or in a system like NMS, you don't make alts. Why? Because every character can do everything without limitation. No point to making an alt.
I would never want a game with all skills open to every character. Having fighters and mages and thieves and whatever give characters an identity. I do like multiple character slots because that gives me a number to try out.
Just to explain about UO... ...and keep in mind that I haven't played it in years, so I could have some numbers wrong...
- Skills went up to 100 (120 now, I think). It was basically a percentile system, but with a lot of modifications. - You had a max number for total skills that you could know. I think it's 720(?) now. - You could develop any skills you wanted, to whatever level you wanted, as long as you didn't exceed that total limit. - You could set each skill to go up, down, or lock them where they are. So if you were at that max level of total skill points, and you wanted to boost a particular skill up a little more, you could set another skill that you have learned to go down.
It was always a very good system.
It was both kind of cool and a problem that you could learn skills just by watching someone else use them, at a slower rate. The problem was where a Mage learned warrior skills that they didn't want, and so forth. So they added the buttons to set your skills to do what you wanted. And of course, you built skills up by using them.
Players would often train up skills by practicing on each other. Trusted folks, friends and guildmates. This was a great social thing that built bonds.
By very design your character always works the same in a skillbased system.
No, it doesn't.
I'm starting to get the feeling we talk different languages.
Yes it most certainly does.
In systems like for example D&D, despite being class based, all core mechanisms stay the same, no matter what you do.
For starters thats because in D&D you can mix classes, anyway.
Thats what you're describing.
If you have strict class systems, you can change these core dynamics.
And yes you can support all kinds of things on D&D or skillbased systems, but you cannot completely turn around how the character works on different classes.
And sky is the limit for this, as long as you have pure classes and not mixed classes like D&D, or skillbased systems.
Heck you could even go crazy and for example make one class work completely twitch based, relying in performance on the reflexes of the player, while another could be completely roleplaying based, the performance of the character exclusively depending upon the character values alone.
Per your last sentence, why can't you do that with Skill Based systems? (Regardless of whether it's a good idea or not.)
Well how could you ?
THe core assumption of any skillbased character is that you can pick any skilltree and mix however you want to.
Thus the core character has to be always the exact same.
Or, you can qualify that there is a core character, but you are then ignoring how much the various skill's add or augment stuff.
I can guarantee that the core of characters with classes is still the same too if you strip them to the fundamental game mechanics.
That's just an argument of staring at the baseline of one system and not the baseline of another.
Or put another way, the core character is you before you pick a class in one system or do your build in the other,
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By very design your character always works the same in a skillbased system.
No, it doesn't.
I'm starting to get the feeling we talk different languages.
Yes it most certainly does.
In systems like for example D&D, despite being class based, all core mechanisms stay the same, no matter what you do.
For starters thats because in D&D you can mix classes, anyway.
Thats what you're describing.
If you have strict class systems, you can change these core dynamics.
And yes you can support all kinds of things on D&D or skillbased systems, but you cannot completely turn around how the character works on different classes.
And sky is the limit for this, as long as you have pure classes and not mixed classes like D&D, or skillbased systems.
Heck you could even go crazy and for example make one class work completely twitch based, relying in performance on the reflexes of the player, while another could be completely roleplaying based, the performance of the character exclusively depending upon the character values alone.
Per your last sentence, why can't you do that with Skill Based systems? (Regardless of whether it's a good idea or not.)
Well how could you ?
THe core assumption of any skillbased character is that you can pick any skilltree and mix however you want to.
Thus the core character has to be always the exact same.
Here's that last sentence for reference:
"Heck you could even go crazy and for example make one class work completely twitch based, relying in performance on the reflexes of the player, while another could be completely roleplaying based, the performance of the character exclusively depending upon the character values alone."
So all you need to do in a Skill Based system is pick one or more "skills" that match what makes up the "Class", and attach code to switch to a twitch system.
Heck you could even go crazy and for example make one class work completely twitch based, relying in performance on the reflexes of the player, while another could be completely roleplaying based, the performance of the character exclusively depending upon the character values alone.
You're literally just explaining the mechanics of an 8man. Your twitch-based player is a healer/tank and the role-player is anything else. why is the role-player always dps or light mana wizard?
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
check out adventurers domain online, on sale right now, its early acess so rough around the edges but no classes, find skill gems and level up with no level cap advancing in a wide amount of skills
Comments
You have been absent from near 1/2 the games lifespan , and giving advice .
There are NOT full on PVP builds as you keep trying to detract to PVP , those are PVE builds that work very well .
So it's obvious that the PvP side got greater rewards and, couple with greater "risk" is thus what anyone would call the "end game" content.
But you can make your case by answering my question instead of attacking my intelligence. Primarily, how has the PvE side made those wilderness summonings of Boss Mobs tougher than they were.
Since the PvP side was mixed right in with their own Boss Mobs, I'm expecting to hear how the PvE side has so much tougher Boss Mobs to account for the lack of PvP.
Still, though, as before, none of this is about the topic at hand.
And Skill Based is not the same as Class Based.
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....
What Class based games do you know of that allows the kind of customizations that I mentioned earlier?
Edit to add:
I did play UO from the first day on through those years. So in effect I did play the PvP side too. And I was a damn good PvPer, fought with and against the best. Other than "og", the most feared PKer while he played UO, I can't remember the names, sadly.
Funny story, I once went into Covetous, before I knew who "og" was, on the first level to get Harpy Feathers. There were a number of us there doing that. Bunches of players kept running out in small groups, and eventually we asked them what if something was going on. No one answered us at first, they just kept on running out.
Finally someone did answer, with a simple "OG!!!"
lol. None of us knew what that meant, but another player running out stopped long enough to explained that he was the worst of the worst PKers. That he "slept in walls of fire."
The guy actually caused dungeons to clear out just by his reputation.
I had to laugh at that.
I guess og (pronounced "oh gee") was well known in other games too.
He was a member of the SOB, Shadows of Britannia, which was a guild full of excellent PvPers. Including Spectre, their leader, who organized the building of the first Mage Tower.
Spectre invited me to join them at one point. But I had to decline because I didn't PK.
I did join a great Anti-PK guild called The Eldar (LDR) and fought in many battles.
Once upon a time....
Anyone that plays UO is aware of this and actively do it .
And yes everyone has there odd Hybrids for fooling around with .
But you certainly can make classes in UO , no doubt about it.
I've pointed out that players often called their characters a "Pure Fighter" or "Pure Mage", for example.
But with a great Skill Based system like UO's you can do so much more.
Those "odd Hybrids for fooling around with" are a lot of fun, and practical for some things.
With a limited set of character slots, you can make a "Pure Gatherer" with just enough combat ability to survive the MOBs in the places you go.
The "Fishing Council of Britannia" was one of those oddball builds, and look where that went.
So too were the Orc Clans, in a way. Although they also fit in a Class system like you're talking about, except for gear maybe.
And what about the characters that tended Kazola's Tavern? Bakers! (Or whatever they had for skills.)
The whole point is that Skill Based games allow it all, and choices for any occasion.
And UO was by far the most fun game in a wider sense of scope, than any other game.
I truly miss the early years of UO when it was populated by such a wide range of player types, and so social and interesting in so many ways. It wasn't just the Skill system, either. It was the "Worldly Sandbox" design, too.
Oh God, the stories! So many stories and memories.
Once upon a time....
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Having fighters and mages and thieves and whatever give characters an identity.
I do like multiple character slots because that gives me a number to try out.
Just to explain about UO...
...and keep in mind that I haven't played it in years, so I could have some numbers wrong...
- Skills went up to 100 (120 now, I think). It was basically a percentile system, but with a lot of modifications.
- You had a max number for total skills that you could know. I think it's 720(?) now.
- You could develop any skills you wanted, to whatever level you wanted, as long as you didn't exceed that total limit.
- You could set each skill to go up, down, or lock them where they are.
So if you were at that max level of total skill points, and you wanted to boost a particular skill up a little more, you could set another skill that you have learned to go down.
It was always a very good system.
It was both kind of cool and a problem that you could learn skills just by watching someone else use them, at a slower rate. The problem was where a Mage learned warrior skills that they didn't want, and so forth. So they added the buttons to set your skills to do what you wanted.
And of course, you built skills up by using them.
Players would often train up skills by practicing on each other. Trusted folks, friends and guildmates. This was a great social thing that built bonds.
Once upon a time....
Or, you can qualify that there is a core character, but you are then ignoring how much the various skill's add or augment stuff.
I can guarantee that the core of characters with classes is still the same too if you strip them to the fundamental game mechanics.
That's just an argument of staring at the baseline of one system and not the baseline of another.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"Heck you could even go crazy and for example make one class work completely twitch based, relying in performance on the reflexes of the player, while another could be completely roleplaying based, the performance of the character exclusively depending upon the character values alone."
So all you need to do in a Skill Based system is pick one or more "skills" that match what makes up the "Class", and attach code to switch to a twitch system.
Once upon a time....
Tera also had it's share of skills.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You're literally just explaining the mechanics of an 8man. Your twitch-based player is a healer/tank and the role-player is anything else. why is the role-player always dps or light mana wizard?
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
That's probably true
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo