I'm with you on this one, they made an MMO based directly on Tolken's works and world, getting the rights to call it "Lord of the Rings Online" and it's somehow too Tolken?
What?
I recall back at launch there were complaints that the game stayed too true to Tolken's lore in terms of class design, particularly in terms of pure spellcasters.
I am not even sure what that means to be honest.
That's like someone playing an Forgotten Realms game and saying "It's too Salvatore"
Of all the objections I could think to toss at a game, that kind of thing, pretty much dismisses any other complaints they may have as just baseless silliness.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ralphie stated that, "It is nice to see a dev team actually consistently improving the game and focusing on casuals rather than some tiny elitists try hard group that do content 90% of the player base doesn't touch."
One day the perfect marriage between solo and group play will finally be developed and we can play together as one happy family.
Indeed, but having that 10% of players that raid (for example) is better than having none. We have seen every thing from three man raids in special dungeons which I approve of to easy mode one man raids which is totally counter productive. But devs are trying to inch their way forward to a better gameplay. It will never be perfect though, we just have to accept that.
Gonna have to disagree with you on this one, big time.
Unless that 10% is part of the demographic that is putting the money in the cash shop, making content and thus rewards that are out of the reach of 90% of your player base, might not be a smart idea
Well they are, players who raid are in the game for the long haul and are more likely to be buying things than those who are not. That said I don't think we can define what sort of gameplay a whale would do if we are talking that level of expenditure, they might spend all their money on outfits (not raids, pve or pvp) for all we know, unless anyone has data on where they spend the most?
Sadly this often is not the case, since these players are often hardcore, elitist, and in some cases, no lifers, they have the in-game means to bypass buying things from the store, or worse, they have a stick up their ass about some purist ideals where they refuse to buy things from the store
Sadly that mentality is very dominant in the horncore section of players, and not as big in the casual regions who feel that the game is meant to be fun and tossing a few bucks to get a pair of hot pants for their avatar is worth it.
So again, unless that group is the one paying the bills, spending the time and effort to make them exclusive content, with special rewards, is not necessarily profitable to the company overall.
This becomes a huge issue for F2P games that depend on players spending money on the game, and if players feel disenchanted with the game, they will in fact stop spending money on it
Ralphie stated that, "It is nice to see a dev team actually consistently improving the game and focusing on casuals rather than some tiny elitists try hard group that do content 90% of the player base doesn't touch."
One day the perfect marriage between solo and group play will finally be developed and we can play together as one happy family.
Indeed, but having that 10% of players that raid (for example) is better than having none. We have seen every thing from three man raids in special dungeons which I approve of to easy mode one man raids which is totally counter productive. But devs are trying to inch their way forward to a better gameplay. It will never be perfect though, we just have to accept that.
I hate raids.
I don't know why a group couldn't just go 'raid' a difficult dungeon. Why they need a private instance, special rewards, and all that is beyond me.
They seem to soak up developer time that could be used for better things - but putting the "Widget Of Elmer" token in a 12 man raid, and evey person on that raid need 3 copies of it to make armor, just totally sucks.
Do raids really soak up all the devs development time? When you see a new dlc or expansion coming out how many times is a new raid announced? I think players are doing what they always do here, they focus in on a part of a MMO they don't enjoy and assume it is absorbing huge amounts of time and money to develop. PvE is what costs the most money, new zones and quests easily dwarfs the time spent on PvP or raids.
Do I begrudge that time, no because I enjoy my PvE as well!
Raids do take up a good portion of time and development, and a bit more then other content, as they need to fine tune the challenge of it, put in custom rewards, and often enough have custom maps, bosses, and mechanics. All this does take Development time and resources from all other departments.
Unlike say PvP Content, which is in fact some of the easiest content to create, as the players are the content, and all the Dev team needs to do is focus on the maps, with the only challenge they need to deal with, would be balancing the classes, and most of the time they fuck that up to no end but there are some players that scream "Unbalance is Balance" or some such dumbfuckery, but still easiest content to create
The thing is, that making a Raid does take time from all divisions, every one of them from sound, animation, programming, environment, and a whole lot of play testing to get the mechanics and challenge on point, thus the question then becomes, could this time be better spent elsewhere making content that a larger portion of the game would enjoy.
That raid, will take time to make, so the question becomes is that a good investment of time and resources worth making something that only 10% or less will enjoy, or would that resources be better spent making content that 50% or 70% or 90% of the player base would enjoy
That's the real question when it comes to these things.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Sadly this often is not the case, since these players are often hardcore, elitist, and in some cases, no lifers, they have the in-game means to bypass buying things from the store, or worse, they have a stick up their ass about some purist ideals where they refuse to buy things from the store
Sadly that mentality is very dominant in the horncore section of players, and not as big in the casual regions who feel that the game is meant to be fun and tossing a few bucks to get a pair of hot pants for their avatar is worth it.
So again, unless that group is the one paying the bills, spending the time and effort to make them exclusive content, with special rewards, is not necessarily profitable to the company overall.
This becomes a huge issue for F2P games that depend on players spending money on the game, and if players feel disenchanted with the game, they will in fact stop spending money on it
Raids do take up a good portion of time and development, and a bit more then other content, as they need to fine tune the challenge of it, put in custom rewards, and often enough have custom maps, bosses, and mechanics. All this does take Development time and resources from all other departments.
Unlike say PvP Content, which is in fact some of the easiest content to create, as the players are the content, and all the Dev team needs to do is focus on the maps, with the only challenge they need to deal with, would be balancing the classes, and most of the time they fuck that up to no end but there are some players that scream "Unbalance is Balance" or some such dumbfuckery, but still easiest content to create
The thing is, that making a Raid does take time from all divisions, every one of them from sound, animation, programming, environment, and a whole lot of play testing to get the mechanics and challenge on point, thus the question then becomes, could this time be better spent elsewhere making content that a larger portion of the game would enjoy.
That raid, will take time to make, so the question becomes is that a good investment of time and resources worth making something that only 10% or less will enjoy, or would that resources be better spent making content that 50% or 70% or 90% of the player base would enjoy
That's the real question when it comes to these things.
I don't accept this characterization of players who like raids, where do you get the idea they are all grinding instead of buying, that they have "purist ideals where they refuse to buy things from the store"? To my mind there are more casuals who want to do little and pay nothing yet achieve everything in the game. Indeed I associate casuals with the "every game must be F2P" crowd. I can tell you I have never met a raider who advocates F2P, though I am sure there must be some out there.
You do seem to me to have an impression of what hardcore is that is a caricature. Not saying hardcore players cannot be like that, just that they are not all "elitist no lifers". Also you equate raids with hardcore players, you don't have to be hardcore to raid, you just have to put some time in which is not hardcore as far as I am concerned. Are two man raids hardcore?
You finish this reply by mentioning F2P games, to me F2P has a lot to do with why MMOs are gameplay wise in the poor state they now are. I think your own leanings are really determining your viewpoint here. Step back, try to see the gameplay of MMOs from all sides, it is the gestalt of gameplay that MMOs provide that make them the best genre there is, remove an element and you dimmish that irreparably.
I think you are really out there when it comes to the dev time taken on raids. PvP is what takes the least time in a MMO unless new arenas and so on are being created. These days such new ways of creating PvP are as common as new raids in some MMOs. I note that you avoid thinking about the awesome big ticket item, PvE which gobbles up time like nothing else, both raids and PvP together do not out do making new zones and questing when it comes to consuming studio resources.
We see this so often "I don't do this in a MMO lets get rid of it." MMOs only became the phenomena they did for all this gameplay. I have the same attitude to this to those who say we can do without the housing because so few use the housing gameplay, no we can't.
I don't accept this characterization of players who like raids, where do you get the idea they are all grinding instead of buying, that they have "purist ideals where they refuse to buy things from the store"?
With over 2 decades of gaming, it's been my personal sampling, both in games and on various gaming forums, that Raids are defined as hardcore players, and in being so, they tend to do all they can to beat the game, this means grinding out the best gear, and often acclimating massive in-game wealth in the process.
Funny how you tell me your sampling has been the inverse, they are all a bunch of lazy poor boys that run to the store.
I personally have never known a casual that liked a game that didn't have a pantry of store items to their name, or ever even thought to take the route of grinding instead of buying, mainly because a lot of casuals are casuals because they have distracting real life obligations, mainly a job, and thus have disposable income to spend on their hobby
Scot said: Also you equate raids with hardcore players, you don't have to be hardcore to raid, you just have to put some time in which is not hardcore as far as I am concerned. Are two man raids hardcore?
I laughed my ass off reading this. "You just have to put in the time" but.. yah that's not grinding or hardcore... do you people even think about the words you are saying?
Of course that is hardcore, putting in the time and getting good is fucking hardcore, that is exactly what being hardcore is all about, putting in the time and effort to be top tier end game capable.
As far as 2 main raids... the smallest designed raid I ever went into was designed for 10 people, so, if you are doing raids, with 2, I'm going to say, yah, that's pretty fucking hardcore.
We see this so often "I don't do this in a MMO lets get rid of it." MMOs only became the phenomena they did for all this gameplay. I have the same attitude to this to those who say we can do without the housing because so few use the housing gameplay, no we can't.
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What turns me off about FFXIV (some of this is probably repeat):
A particular emote is available for completing faction work. What part of immersion is enhanced by having an emote (dance move) only available to people who complete a quest. That makes no sense unless you're a themepark.
A visit to a populated hotspot has such an assortment of blinged out characters as to look like a Madi Gras celebration. There is a little childlike figure in a bunny suit and a nearly naked dominatrix in leather. It makes no sense.
The game has more loading screens than any title I've ever played. Many areas area single room. The amount of time I spend on loading screens is boggling.
Do raids really soak up all the devs development time? When you see a new dlc or expansion coming out how many times is a new raid announced? I think players are doing what they always do here, they focus in on a part of a MMO they don't enjoy and assume it is absorbing huge amounts of time and money to develop. PvE is what costs the most money, new zones and quests easily dwarfs the time spent on PvP or raids.
Do I begrudge that time, no because I enjoy my PvE as well!
This is a fair comment.
To rebutt:
In LOTRO several of the expansions have either been raids or featured raids.
In LOTRO some of the gear progression requires raids. I know of people who've run the same raid 100x just to help kinnies.
To be fair, LOTRO is a theme-park and that seems to sell.
I'd rather see the effort go into a large dungeon that randomizes once per week, such that it has content for solo players and large groups. Seems like more interesting replay for more people.
Because they're boring, stale, and stagnant to me and the value isn't there for me. These kinds of games tend to want to lean heavily into massive time sinks, gear resets, repeatable churn, which leaves little, if any, time to play anything else. To me, they're all worse versions of their non-mmo counterparts.
Do raids really soak up all the devs development time? When you see a new dlc or expansion coming out how many times is a new raid announced? I think players are doing what they always do here, they focus in on a part of a MMO they don't enjoy and assume it is absorbing huge amounts of time and money to develop. PvE is what costs the most money, new zones and quests easily dwarfs the time spent on PvP or raids.
Do I begrudge that time, no because I enjoy my PvE as well!
This is a fair comment.
To rebutt:
In LOTRO several of the expansions have either been raids or featured raids.
In LOTRO some of the gear progression requires raids. I know of people who've run the same raid 100x just to help kinnies.
To be fair, LOTRO is a theme-park and that seems to sell.
I'd rather see the effort go into a large dungeon that randomizes once per week, such that it has content for solo players and large groups. Seems like more interesting replay for more people.
I have done those raids 100's of times to help kinnies...and their alts.
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
Which I guess makes my Lotro guild really hardcore? They would laugh at the idea and we have often talked about what we have bought in the store just to get up to scratch rather than doing yet another grind.
If you have housing you get real estate items which come from quests, raids and purchases. Sure not as tough to do as raids but you have to work or pay like everything else in game and in life.
I think its FF XIV where you can pay to do a raid as one man? I think that's awful but once again raiders are paying. Raiders are there for the long haul and casuals come and go paying how much? Not a lot as they don't go the distance.
We are never going to agree on this one, so I am leaving it there, do have a last word if you want.
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
Which I guess makes my Lotro guild really hardcore? They would laugh at the idea and we have often talked about what we have bought in the store just to get up to scratch rather than doing yet another grind.
If you have housing you get real estate items which come from quests, raids and purchases. Sure not as tough to do as raids but you have to work or pay like everything else in game and in life.
Totally agree with you on this one, but as it stands, the common demographics are Raiders Work and Casuals Pay
Which is kind of my whole point that, unless the Raiders are paying as much as the Casuals, for some games it might very well not be worth the development time to cater to them.
Now, some games like WoW which was made from the ground up to be a Raiding game, raids are a huge part of the game, it would not work for WoW to not have raids
Meanwhile, when GW2 put in raids, they damn near sunk their shit ship
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
Which I guess makes my Lotro guild really hardcore? They would laugh at the idea and we have often talked about what we have bought in the store just to get up to scratch rather than doing yet another grind.
If you have housing you get real estate items which come from quests, raids and purchases. Sure not as tough to do as raids but you have to work or pay like everything else in game and in life.
Totally agree with you on this one, but as it stands, the common demographics are Raiders Work and Casuals Pay
Well I dont know if I agree with this.
Hardcore players and Casuals generally pay for different things. I think some of the biggest whales come from hardcore type players. Generally hardcore players want competitive advantages in game.
Casuals generally pay for QOL, cosmetics and catchup mechanics.
When I would sell stuff as a weaponsmith in Wurm Online, I know all the top rare/supreme/fantastic weapons I was producing was mostly going to hardcore players. Anything that would give a huge in game advantage was going to sell for big money. In that same game, I would see casuals drop big money on buying cool already built house/properties, and fully bred mounts with cool colors. maybe a nice boat, just things like that.
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
Which I guess makes my Lotro guild really hardcore? They would laugh at the idea and we have often talked about what we have bought in the store just to get up to scratch rather than doing yet another grind.
If you have housing you get real estate items which come from quests, raids and purchases. Sure not as tough to do as raids but you have to work or pay like everything else in game and in life.
Totally agree with you on this one, but as it stands, the common demographics are Raiders Work and Casuals Pay
Well I dont know if I agree with this.
Hardcore players and Casuals generally pay for different things. I think some of the biggest whales come from hardcore type players. Generally hardcore players want competitive advantages in game.
Casuals generally pay for QOL, cosmetics and catchup mechanics.
When I would sell stuff as a weaponsmith in Wurm Online, I know all the top rare/supreme/fantastic weapons I was producing was mostly going to hardcore players. Anything that would give a huge in game advantage was going to sell for big money. In that same game, I would see casuals drop big money on buying cool already built house/properties, and fully bred mounts with cool colors. maybe a nice boat, just things like that.
Alright, So, if I have this right
Hardcore Players want Direct Power/Advantage, aka P2W.
Casuals will spend their money on whatever the hell strikes their fancy.
So... following this logic, if the game does not have P2W, it's going to be Casuals that will keep the money flowing, not the Hardcore/Raiders.
You know what, I find myself totally agreeing with you.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'm with you on this one, they made an MMO based directly on Tolken's works and world, getting the rights to call it "Lord of the Rings Online" and it's somehow too Tolken?
What?
I recall back at launch there were complaints that the game stayed too true to Tolken's lore in terms of class design, particularly in terms of pure spellcasters.
I am not even sure what that means to be honest.
That's like someone playing an Forgotten Realms game and saying "It's too Salvatore"
Of all the objections I could think to toss at a game, that kind of thing, pretty much dismisses any other complaints they may have as just baseless silliness.
To rephrase, LotRO at launch lacked pure spell casting classes, Wizards, Warlock, Mages, no way to play as Gandalf the Grey or White, if you will.
The argument made at the time is mages were extremely rare in Tolken's universe so were not implemented as a playable class as it would violate the lore.
Who's lore? Tolken's.
There were some other design decisions made in order to stay more true to the lore which some players didn't care for, and were eventually walked back on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm with you on this one, they made an MMO based directly on Tolken's works and world, getting the rights to call it "Lord of the Rings Online" and it's somehow too Tolken?
What?
I recall back at launch there were complaints that the game stayed too true to Tolken's lore in terms of class design, particularly in terms of pure spellcasters.
I am not even sure what that means to be honest.
That's like someone playing an Forgotten Realms game and saying "It's too Salvatore"
Of all the objections I could think to toss at a game, that kind of thing, pretty much dismisses any other complaints they may have as just baseless silliness.
To rephrase, LotRO at launch lacked pure spell casting classes, Wizards, Warlock, Mages, no way to play as Gandalf the Grey or White, if you will.
The argument made at the time is mages were extremely rare in Tolken's universe so were not implemented as a playable class as it would violate the lore.
Who's lore? Tolken's.
There were some other design decisions made in order to stay more true to the lore which some players didn't care for, and were eventually walked back on.
So the problem was, the players didn't like it being true to the lore.
Which I find ironic as all hell to me
Doubly so when players are like "I hate games were I am the chosen one" yet at the same time when they play a game based on a lore like Tolken, everyone wants to be Gandaf!
Fucking Hilarious!
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
Which I guess makes my Lotro guild really hardcore? They would laugh at the idea and we have often talked about what we have bought in the store just to get up to scratch rather than doing yet another grind.
If you have housing you get real estate items which come from quests, raids and purchases. Sure not as tough to do as raids but you have to work or pay like everything else in game and in life.
Totally agree with you on this one, but as it stands, the common demographics are Raiders Work and Casuals Pay
Well I dont know if I agree with this.
Hardcore players and Casuals generally pay for different things. I think some of the biggest whales come from hardcore type players. Generally hardcore players want competitive advantages in game.
Casuals generally pay for QOL, cosmetics and catchup mechanics.
When I would sell stuff as a weaponsmith in Wurm Online, I know all the top rare/supreme/fantastic weapons I was producing was mostly going to hardcore players. Anything that would give a huge in game advantage was going to sell for big money. In that same game, I would see casuals drop big money on buying cool already built house/properties, and fully bred mounts with cool colors. maybe a nice boat, just things like that.
Alright, So, if I have this right
Hardcore Players want Direct Power/Advantage, aka P2W.
Casuals will spend their money on whatever the hell strikes their fancy.
So... following this logic, if the game does not have P2W, it's going to be Casuals that will keep the money flowing, not the Hardcore/Raiders.
You know what, I find myself totally agreeing with you.
I think in some ways you are right. Many hardcore players spend big on P2W stuff.
However there are alot of stuff that many games dont consider direct P2W.
Latest expansions
character unlocks
zones
inventory space
multiple characters
server transfers
multiple accounts (especially if the game has an advantage to multiboxing)
pets that pickup loot
pets that allow you to repair in a dungeon
pets that allow you to access bank in a dungeon
any items that may be worth a bunch of in game gold later that are not BOP (any rare resellables).
In games like SC probably the latest FOTM ships.
I kind of think alot of that is P2W also, but this is what we have to deal with in todays world.
Because hardcore players play so much, they tend to invest in the game they are sticking 3k-10k hours in. Casuals on the other hand buy a few things here or there. When comparing per person, Hardcore players pay more, when you factor in casuals outnumber hardcore players 10+ to 1, the needle probably leans more towards casuals unless its a P2W game like Diablo immortal.
They both represent a hefty part of the money, why ignore either group?
I'm with you on this one, they made an MMO based directly on Tolken's works and world, getting the rights to call it "Lord of the Rings Online" and it's somehow too Tolken?
What?
I recall back at launch there were complaints that the game stayed too true to Tolken's lore in terms of class design, particularly in terms of pure spellcasters.
I am not even sure what that means to be honest.
That's like someone playing an Forgotten Realms game and saying "It's too Salvatore"
Of all the objections I could think to toss at a game, that kind of thing, pretty much dismisses any other complaints they may have as just baseless silliness.
To rephrase, LotRO at launch lacked pure spell casting classes, Wizards, Warlock, Mages, no way to play as Gandalf the Grey or White, if you will.
The argument made at the time is mages were extremely rare in Tolken's universe so were not implemented as a playable class as it would violate the lore.
Who's lore? Tolken's.
There were some other design decisions made in order to stay more true to the lore which some players didn't care for, and were eventually walked back on.
So the problem was, the players didn't like it being true to the lore.
Which I find ironic as all hell to me
Doubly so when players are like "I hate games were I am the chosen one" yet at the same time when they play a game based on a lore like Tolken, everyone wants to be Gandaf!
Fucking Hilarious!
Yes, gamers be weird for sure. A big complaint against ESO is it incorporated too many modern themepark MMORPG designs and didn't stay more true to Skyrim or even Oblivion.
SWTOR got slagged for not being more like SWG, or Knights of the Jedi, or that there was too much forced story /dialogue, a complaint often leveled at FFXIV.
No matter how a game is designed, there will be supporters and detectors. As supporters tend to pay the bills developers usually pay more attention to their feedback.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
Which I guess makes my Lotro guild really hardcore? They would laugh at the idea and we have often talked about what we have bought in the store just to get up to scratch rather than doing yet another grind.
If you have housing you get real estate items which come from quests, raids and purchases. Sure not as tough to do as raids but you have to work or pay like everything else in game and in life.
Totally agree with you on this one, but as it stands, the common demographics are Raiders Work and Casuals Pay
Well I dont know if I agree with this.
Hardcore players and Casuals generally pay for different things. I think some of the biggest whales come from hardcore type players. Generally hardcore players want competitive advantages in game.
Casuals generally pay for QOL, cosmetics and catchup mechanics.
When I would sell stuff as a weaponsmith in Wurm Online, I know all the top rare/supreme/fantastic weapons I was producing was mostly going to hardcore players. Anything that would give a huge in game advantage was going to sell for big money. In that same game, I would see casuals drop big money on buying cool already built house/properties, and fully bred mounts with cool colors. maybe a nice boat, just things like that.
Alright, So, if I have this right
Hardcore Players want Direct Power/Advantage, aka P2W.
Casuals will spend their money on whatever the hell strikes their fancy.
So... following this logic, if the game does not have P2W, it's going to be Casuals that will keep the money flowing, not the Hardcore/Raiders.
You know what, I find myself totally agreeing with you.
I think in some ways you are right. Many hardcore players spend big on P2W stuff.
However there are alot of stuff that many games dont consider direct P2W.
Latest expansions
character unlocks
zones
inventory space
multiple characters
server transfers
multiple accounts (especially if the game has an advantage to multiboxing)
pets that pickup loot
pets that allow you to repair in a dungeon
pets that allow you to access bank in a dungeon
any items that may be worth a bunch of in game gold later that are not BOP (any rare resellables).
In games like SC probably the latest FOTM ships.
I kind of think alot of that is P2W also, but this is what we have to deal with in todays world.
Because hardcore players play so much, they tend to invest in the game they are sticking 3k-10k hours in. Casuals on the other hand buy a few things here or there. When comparing per person, Hardcore players pay more, when you factor in casuals outnumber hardcore players 10+ to 1, the needle probably leans more towards casuals unless its a P2W game like Diablo immortal.
They both represent a hefty part of the money, why ignore either group?
Well everything you listed, I have heard being called P2W.
But, Lets be honest here, Casuals overall put more money into games, because they would buy raw power and also spend on convivence items, and on top of that and also buy a bunch of pointless cosmetics, whereas by your own admitting the Hardcore are not inclined to buy pointless stuff
Now, you're not wrong that a lot of casuals don't spend money on games, if they can help it, I heard something like 50% of a F2P Population does not spend any noticeable amount on the game.
Statically that means more casuals will not spend money on the game then Hardcore, simply because even if none of the hardcore players spent money, that still leaves 40% of the remaining to be made up casuals.
But, truth is, the players that are spending money on the game, since overall Casuals will not only buy all the things Hardcore players will, they will also buy a bunch of other bullshit, chances are, the ones that are spending money, are spending more than the Hardcore population.
Why Ignore either group? Simple, if you put in content that say, only 10% can do, the other 90% will never be able to get those rewards, without a doubt those will also be the best rewards in the game, and thus your brilliant plan just stonewalled 90% of the population, and made them feel like they will never be good enough, meanwhile allowing the 10% to rub it in the faces of the unwashed masses how much better they are.
Now... from a gamer point of view, I can understand those that will fall into the 10% not giving a fuck.
But when you really need that other 90% to want to spend money, pissing on them, is not the best way to make that happen.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
"Your reasons as to what "kills" an mmo for you, there's a few big names in mmo world, so what is your reason for not playing them?"
Pretty simple really. I don't have time, or more accurately I don't place enough value on time invested in an MMO to be worth the rewards. I could reprioritize my time and probably get involved in an MMO, but I frankly have better and more important things to do. The idea of spending hours per week putting up with the hubris of raiding guild personalities so I can what... Have a full raid set of gear and stand around the bank and link my gear in the global chat? Really? Sorry but that's all pretty comical to me. All the people who thump their hardcore chests on these boards and look down their noses at casual players is very ironic, and I can't fathom spending my time partnering with those types of personalities for my entertainment. The size of egos in something that is laughably unimportant is truly dumbfounding to me. The fact anyone would envy them or aspire to be them equally dumbfounding. Don't get me wrong I'm all for video games and entertainment. Everyone needs down time to get their brains back in order after a long day of work or school. I'll play games until the day I die. Not MMOs though. They demand your very soul in that they require so much time and contiguous time at that as to force you to set aside truly important things like your relationships with friends and family to be able to play them at the end game level. If you can't or won't make that commitment the game devs and players frankly don't have time for you, so... I take my time and money elsewhere when it comes to my gaming.
By the way I used to Off tank Molten Core back when that meant something, so I'm not speaking out of my ass on the time commitment or on the value proposition of raiding.
Seriously what do you guys plan to do when you get old and your health starts to fail and all you have for your legacy is a bunch of MMO accounts with piles of purple gear and achievements. Is that what is going on your obituary? On your epitaph? Do something of significance in your life. This. Ain't. It.
I think that making these sweeping generalisations of people's lives and how they live them is very hypocritical. I've to say I don't enjoy window shopping or spending hours just gossiping with my girlfriends but I don't go around judging their lives as worthless because they do it. Nor is a housewife who spends hours watching dramas after doing the daily chores a wasted life. People enjoy their life as best as they can if they enjoy doing so in a video game I would not be so fast as to condemn them.
If you're not actively hurting someone else with your hobbies I think it is a fine pastime.
There are people who can organise and spend limited amount of time a week doing raids but because others do not have the ability to be so focused for a few hours they assume that this person does nothing else. If you do not know where they spend the other 16-19 hours out of the game I do not think you can decide that they are not doing anything else. It is a fallacy that is perpetuated when you attach your own limitations to other people's capabilities.
Lot of people I know manage their time and daily routines far better than I do and even in university I had friends who did very well in spite of my assumptions that they did not have any time to study. I just sucked at managing my daily life in comparison.
I think that making these sweeping generalisations of people's lives and how they live them is very hypocritical. I've to say I don't enjoy window shopping or spending hours just gossiping with my girlfriends but I don't go around judging their lives as worthless because they do it. Nor is a housewife who spends hours watching dramas after doing the daily chores a wasted life. People enjoy their life as best as they can if they enjoy doing so in a video game I would not be so fast as to condemn them.
If you're not actively hurting someone else with your hobbies I think it is a fine pastime.
There are people who can organise and spend limited amount of time a week doing raids but because others do not have the ability to be so focused for a few hours they assume that this person does nothing else. If you do not know where they spend the other 16-19 hours out of the game I do not think you can decide that they are not doing anything else. It is a fallacy that is perpetuated when you attach your own limitations to other people's capabilities.
Lot of people I know manage their time and daily routines far better than I do and even in university I had friends who did very well in spite of my assumptions that they did not have any time to study. I just sucked at managing my daily life in comparison.
This is where players get the wrong end of the stick, we had parents with kids in my guilds, you organize raids so that everyone can join in sometime, so typically at least two evenings a week. The idea is the guilders get to join in, that's the whole fun of being in a guild. Maybe that amount of time is still too much for you, well what about doing a three man raid? They are shorter and so on. It is about getting the players in the guild to do as much as they can, not pushing them to do more.
I think that making these sweeping generalisations of people's lives and how they live them is very hypocritical. I've to say I don't enjoy window shopping or spending hours just gossiping with my girlfriends but I don't go around judging their lives as worthless because they do it. Nor is a housewife who spends hours watching dramas after doing the daily chores a wasted life. People enjoy their life as best as they can if they enjoy doing so in a video game I would not be so fast as to condemn them.
If you're not actively hurting someone else with your hobbies I think it is a fine pastime.
There are people who can organise and spend limited amount of time a week doing raids but because others do not have the ability to be so focused for a few hours they assume that this person does nothing else. If you do not know where they spend the other 16-19 hours out of the game I do not think you can decide that they are not doing anything else. It is a fallacy that is perpetuated when you attach your own limitations to other people's capabilities.
Lot of people I know manage their time and daily routines far better than I do and even in university I had friends who did very well in spite of my assumptions that they did not have any time to study. I just sucked at managing my daily life in comparison.
This is where players get the wrong end of the stick, we had parents with kids in my guilds, you organize raids so that everyone can join in sometime, so typically at least two evenings a week. The idea is the guilders get to join in, that's the whole fun of being in a guild. Maybe that amount of time is still too much for you, well what about doing a three man raid? They are shorter and so on. It is about getting the players in the guild to do as much as they can, not pushing them to do more.
Alright.. you won some internets.. what is a 3 man raid?
In every MMO I have ever played, we call that a dungeon, not a raid.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
That's like someone playing an Forgotten Realms game and saying "It's too Salvatore"
Of all the objections I could think to toss at a game, that kind of thing, pretty much dismisses any other complaints they may have as just baseless silliness.
Sadly that mentality is very dominant in the horncore section of players, and not as big in the casual regions who feel that the game is meant to be fun and tossing a few bucks to get a pair of hot pants for their avatar is worth it.
So again, unless that group is the one paying the bills, spending the time and effort to make them exclusive content, with special rewards, is not necessarily profitable to the company overall.
This becomes a huge issue for F2P games that depend on players spending money on the game, and if players feel disenchanted with the game, they will in fact stop spending money on it
Raids do take up a good portion of time and development, and a bit more then other content, as they need to fine tune the challenge of it, put in custom rewards, and often enough have custom maps, bosses, and mechanics. All this does take Development time and resources from all other departments.
Unlike say PvP Content, which is in fact some of the easiest content to create, as the players are the content, and all the Dev team needs to do is focus on the maps, with the only challenge they need to deal with, would be balancing the classes, and most of the time they fuck that up to no end but there are some players that scream "Unbalance is Balance" or some such dumbfuckery, but still easiest content to create
The thing is, that making a Raid does take time from all divisions, every one of them from sound, animation, programming, environment, and a whole lot of play testing to get the mechanics and challenge on point, thus the question then becomes, could this time be better spent elsewhere making content that a larger portion of the game would enjoy.
That raid, will take time to make, so the question becomes is that a good investment of time and resources worth making something that only 10% or less will enjoy, or would that resources be better spent making content that 50% or 70% or 90% of the player base would enjoy
That's the real question when it comes to these things.
You do seem to me to have an impression of what hardcore is that is a caricature. Not saying hardcore players cannot be like that, just that they are not all "elitist no lifers". Also you equate raids with hardcore players, you don't have to be hardcore to raid, you just have to put some time in which is not hardcore as far as I am concerned. Are two man raids hardcore?
You finish this reply by mentioning F2P games, to me F2P has a lot to do with why MMOs are gameplay wise in the poor state they now are. I think your own leanings are really determining your viewpoint here. Step back, try to see the gameplay of MMOs from all sides, it is the gestalt of gameplay that MMOs provide that make them the best genre there is, remove an element and you dimmish that irreparably.
I think you are really out there when it comes to the dev time taken on raids. PvP is what takes the least time in a MMO unless new arenas and so on are being created. These days such new ways of creating PvP are as common as new raids in some MMOs. I note that you avoid thinking about the awesome big ticket item, PvE which gobbles up time like nothing else, both raids and PvP together do not out do making new zones and questing when it comes to consuming studio resources.
We see this so often "I don't do this in a MMO lets get rid of it." MMOs only became the phenomena they did for all this gameplay. I have the same attitude to this to those who say we can do without the housing because so few use the housing gameplay, no we can't.
With over 2 decades of gaming, it's been my personal sampling, both in games and on various gaming forums, that Raids are defined as hardcore players, and in being so, they tend to do all they can to beat the game, this means grinding out the best gear, and often acclimating massive in-game wealth in the process.
Funny how you tell me your sampling has been the inverse, they are all a bunch of lazy poor boys that run to the store.
I personally have never known a casual that liked a game that didn't have a pantry of store items to their name, or ever even thought to take the route of grinding instead of buying, mainly because a lot of casuals are casuals because they have distracting real life obligations, mainly a job, and thus have disposable income to spend on their hobby
I laughed my ass off reading this. "You just have to put in the time" but.. yah that's not grinding or hardcore... do you people even think about the words you are saying?
Of course that is hardcore, putting in the time and getting good is fucking hardcore, that is exactly what being hardcore is all about, putting in the time and effort to be top tier end game capable.
As far as 2 main raids... the smallest designed raid I ever went into was designed for 10 people, so, if you are doing raids, with 2, I'm going to say, yah, that's pretty fucking hardcore.
This is a stupid analogy, because Unlike Raids which are often only able to be done by 10% of the player base at most, regardless if you like housing or not, it's often easily accessible to 100% of the player base
To rebutt:
- In LOTRO several of the expansions have either been raids or featured raids.
- In LOTRO some of the gear progression requires raids. I know of people who've run the same raid 100x just to help kinnies.
- To be fair, LOTRO is a theme-park and that seems to sell.
I'd rather see the effort go into a large dungeon that randomizes once per week, such that it has content for solo players and large groups. Seems like more interesting replay for more people.Which I guess makes my Lotro guild really hardcore? They would laugh at the idea and we have often talked about what we have bought in the store just to get up to scratch rather than doing yet another grind.
If you have housing you get real estate items which come from quests, raids and purchases. Sure not as tough to do as raids but you have to work or pay like everything else in game and in life.
I think its FF XIV where you can pay to do a raid as one man? I think that's awful but once again raiders are paying. Raiders are there for the long haul and casuals come and go paying how much? Not a lot as they don't go the distance.
We are never going to agree on this one, so I am leaving it there, do have a last word if you want.
Which is kind of my whole point that, unless the Raiders are paying as much as the Casuals, for some games it might very well not be worth the development time to cater to them.
Now, some games like WoW which was made from the ground up to be a Raiding game, raids are a huge part of the game, it would not work for WoW to not have raids
Meanwhile, when GW2 put in raids, they damn near sunk their shit ship
Well I dont know if I agree with this.
Hardcore players and Casuals generally pay for different things. I think some of the biggest whales come from hardcore type players. Generally hardcore players want competitive advantages in game.
Casuals generally pay for QOL, cosmetics and catchup mechanics.
When I would sell stuff as a weaponsmith in Wurm Online, I know all the top rare/supreme/fantastic weapons I was producing was mostly going to hardcore players. Anything that would give a huge in game advantage was going to sell for big money. In that same game, I would see casuals drop big money on buying cool already built house/properties, and fully bred mounts with cool colors. maybe a nice boat, just things like that.
I'm playing pokemon go now. That is enough grind for a game. You pretty much login everyday to do the same crap just like 90% of the mmorpg.
I tried to play ESO, thinking I might be able to just log in and go do RvR. I'm pretty wrong on that.
Hardcore Players want Direct Power/Advantage, aka P2W.
Casuals will spend their money on whatever the hell strikes their fancy.
So... following this logic, if the game does not have P2W, it's going to be Casuals that will keep the money flowing, not the Hardcore/Raiders.
You know what, I find myself totally agreeing with you.
The argument made at the time is mages were extremely rare in Tolken's universe so were not implemented as a playable class as it would violate the lore.
Who's lore? Tolken's.
There were some other design decisions made in order to stay more true to the lore which some players didn't care for, and were eventually walked back on.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One thing that irked me is the required grouping in the main story line.
To Mitigate:
- You can run the instances with NPCs.
- They have a series of training quests that go over the basics of fighting in a group.
I don't care for the game but level of polish on this title is unlike anything I've ever seen.Kudos.
Which I find ironic as all hell to me
Doubly so when players are like "I hate games were I am the chosen one" yet at the same time when they play a game based on a lore like Tolken, everyone wants to be Gandaf!
Fucking Hilarious!
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....
However there are alot of stuff that many games dont consider direct P2W.
I kind of think alot of that is P2W also, but this is what we have to deal with in todays world.
Because hardcore players play so much, they tend to invest in the game they are sticking 3k-10k hours in. Casuals on the other hand buy a few things here or there. When comparing per person, Hardcore players pay more, when you factor in casuals outnumber hardcore players 10+ to 1, the needle probably leans more towards casuals unless its a P2W game like Diablo immortal.
They both represent a hefty part of the money, why ignore either group?
SWTOR got slagged for not being more like SWG, or Knights of the Jedi, or that there was too much forced story /dialogue, a complaint often leveled at FFXIV.
No matter how a game is designed, there will be supporters and detectors. As supporters tend to pay the bills developers usually pay more attention to their feedback.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But, Lets be honest here, Casuals overall put more money into games, because they would buy raw power and also spend on convivence items, and on top of that and also buy a bunch of pointless cosmetics, whereas by your own admitting the Hardcore are not inclined to buy pointless stuff
Now, you're not wrong that a lot of casuals don't spend money on games, if they can help it, I heard something like 50% of a F2P Population does not spend any noticeable amount on the game.
Statically that means more casuals will not spend money on the game then Hardcore, simply because even if none of the hardcore players spent money, that still leaves 40% of the remaining to be made up casuals.
But, truth is, the players that are spending money on the game, since overall Casuals will not only buy all the things Hardcore players will, they will also buy a bunch of other bullshit, chances are, the ones that are spending money, are spending more than the Hardcore population.
Why Ignore either group? Simple, if you put in content that say, only 10% can do, the other 90% will never be able to get those rewards, without a doubt those will also be the best rewards in the game, and thus your brilliant plan just stonewalled 90% of the population, and made them feel like they will never be good enough, meanwhile allowing the 10% to rub it in the faces of the unwashed masses how much better they are.
Now... from a gamer point of view, I can understand those that will fall into the 10% not giving a fuck.
But when you really need that other 90% to want to spend money, pissing on them, is not the best way to make that happen.
Pretty simple really. I don't have time, or more accurately I don't place enough value on time invested in an MMO to be worth the rewards. I could reprioritize my time and probably get involved in an MMO, but I frankly have better and more important things to do. The idea of spending hours per week putting up with the hubris of raiding guild personalities so I can what... Have a full raid set of gear and stand around the bank and link my gear in the global chat? Really? Sorry but that's all pretty comical to me. All the people who thump their hardcore chests on these boards and look down their noses at casual players is very ironic, and I can't fathom spending my time partnering with those types of personalities for my entertainment. The size of egos in something that is laughably unimportant is truly dumbfounding to me. The fact anyone would envy them or aspire to be them equally dumbfounding. Don't get me wrong I'm all for video games and entertainment. Everyone needs down time to get their brains back in order after a long day of work or school. I'll play games until the day I die. Not MMOs though. They demand your very soul in that they require so much time and contiguous time at that as to force you to set aside truly important things like your relationships with friends and family to be able to play them at the end game level. If you can't or won't make that commitment the game devs and players frankly don't have time for you, so... I take my time and money elsewhere when it comes to my gaming.
By the way I used to Off tank Molten Core back when that meant something, so I'm not speaking out of my ass on the time commitment or on the value proposition of raiding.
Seriously what do you guys plan to do when you get old and your health starts to fail and all you have for your legacy is a bunch of MMO accounts with piles of purple gear and achievements. Is that what is going on your obituary? On your epitaph? Do something of significance in your life. This. Ain't. It.
If you're not actively hurting someone else with your hobbies I think it is a fine pastime.
There are people who can organise and spend limited amount of time a week doing raids but because others do not have the ability to be so focused for a few hours they assume that this person does nothing else. If you do not know where they spend the other 16-19 hours out of the game I do not think you can decide that they are not doing anything else. It is a fallacy that is perpetuated when you attach your own limitations to other people's capabilities.
Lot of people I know manage their time and daily routines far better than I do and even in university I had friends who did very well in spite of my assumptions that they did not have any time to study. I just sucked at managing my daily life in comparison.
In every MMO I have ever played, we call that a dungeon, not a raid.