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Nanfoodle

Scot said:

The balance I am thinking of is more a standard to aim for rather than an absolute that can be there from day one and forever more. It is the obviously over powered crowd control or the faction which has a class that can do something the other faction has no version of at launch (hello Warhammer). So yes, it is never going to be FPS, but coming from that background myself that is the grail to strive for.

You mentioned 1v1 as opposed to large scale. Well it is when the balance is affected so badly that small groups are effected by balance issues that you know something has to be done. 1v1 is a hard judgment call.

It is better to get the balance right than relying on large scale which does work but not always. I am thinking of choke points here, like stairs on a keep where fewer players can be active at a time, but how much of an issue that was would vary greatly from game to game.

This is what a few of us are saying here. Large Scale Battle Ground PvP, Objective PvP based games, that take little to dev resources to keep PvP players engaged. Needs very little balancing. And any OP builds, just get balanced out as people change their builds to adapt. So the balance being done for PvE, only needs slight tweaks for PvP. PvE skill that AoE stuns on players make that skill only stun 3 players.  

The_Korrigan

Just for info, they won't be using "Lumberyard". Lumberyard is dead.

They will be using this:

https://www.o3de.org/

Scot

Nanfoodle said:

Scot said:

The balance I am thinking of is more a standard to aim for rather than an absolute that can be there from day one and forever more. It is the obviously over powered crowd control or the faction which has a class that can do something the other faction has no version of at launch (hello Warhammer). So yes, it is never going to be FPS, but coming from that background myself that is the grail to strive for.

You mentioned 1v1 as opposed to large scale. Well it is when the balance is affected so badly that small groups are effected by balance issues that you know something has to be done. 1v1 is a hard judgment call.

It is better to get the balance right than relying on large scale which does work but not always. I am thinking of choke points here, like stairs on a keep where fewer players can be active at a time, but how much of an issue that was would vary greatly from game to game.

This is what a few of us are saying here. Large Scale Battle Ground PvP, Objective PvP based games, that take little to dev resources to keep PvP players engaged. Needs very little balancing. And any OP builds, just get balanced out as people change their builds to adapt. So the balance being done for PvE, only needs slight tweaks for PvP. PvE skill that AoE stuns on players make that skill only stun 3 players.  

The sort of bad mistakes we have seen in the past are factions where there is no "mirror" class on the other side. WH made good after launch, for some MMOs that stays built in. Also it does depend on the gameplay, if you can duel (you don't even need an arena for that) ,suddenly 1v1 balance becomes very important especially if the devs are unwise enough to give significant awards for winners.

A lot of this is down to the structure the PvP is set in, cosmetic only dueling rewards and watching the number of choke points (more up to a point is better for each 'stage' so they are not as effective in narrowing down the participants) go a long way to ironing out the issues. You could have PvP skills which are significantly different from the classes PvE ones and then balance them really well but that takes a lot of time and like you say a MMO may be better served by cutting that time hog.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

The sort of bad mistakes we have seen in the past are factions where there is no "mirror" class on the other side. 

Could not disagree more.

Nanfoodle

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

The sort of bad mistakes we have seen in the past are factions where there is no "mirror" class on the other side. 

Could not disagree more.

Personally, when the industry started mirroring classes, making DPS classes do the same level of DPS but in their own animations, harmonization of skills so class identity no longer mattered. Any class could fill any slot in a team. This was the start of MMO's going downhill. Im still waiting for game developers to get that.     

Scot

Nanfoodle said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

The sort of bad mistakes we have seen in the past are factions where there is no "mirror" class on the other side. 

Could not disagree more.

Personally, when the industry started mirroring classes, making DPS classes do the same level of DPS but in their own animations, harmonization of skills so class identity no longer mattered. Any class could fill any slot in a team. This was the start of MMO's going downhill. Im still waiting for game developers to get that.     

I don't see how you think mirroring led to the problems you mention, to me it is a must have for balance. As long as the differing animations do not lead to problems it should work well. To me the 'one class suits all' approach came from catering to soloers not those concerned with balance. Class identity still matters with mirroring as long as the classes remain distinct.

Now I am not saying that such balance is always needed, look at Lotro Monster PvP. But I think were the MMO is about territorial control to varying degrees from DAOC onwards that mirroring is important. You are right though in that it leads to a feeling of less uniqueness, there are ways to sort that out mind you. If you make what is different about the "mirrored" classes only effect PvE then you retain the PvP balance.

At the end of the day even without the likes of duelling this is about player perception as much as it is about what the gameplay is really like. If players think their class, even worse their faction is second rate they will vote with their feet, which no game wants happening. As always though studios need to be wary of player demands, we all know how things which are not really an issue get trumped up out of all proportion.

Slapshot1188

Sorry.  Will simply have to respectfully disagree.  I think there are 2 camps.  One camp wants a more even, sportlike game.  That appears to be your camp, and it might even be the more popular one.  The other camp doesn't care about even fights.  We just want a WAR.  We want to despise the other side BECAUSE they have class X or Race Y.  I want to look across the battlefield and see "other", not my twin.  I want to curse the damn Mid Zerker with his broken Left Axe.  I want to charge into the Albs protected by the "double bubble" from my two Wardens and feel the frustration of my enemy.

To me, MMORPGs simply cannot outdo games that are built around sportlike PvP if that's the goal.  So I say, embrace the uniquness that is the MMORPG. Where we are not the same.  Where we have not only varying skill but various levels, various builds, various equipment, various levels of communication.

olepi

DAOC did not really have mirror classes. I mostly played a Minstrel, and the other sides did not have an exact copy of the Minstrel. The Bard was similar, but different. The Animist had no mirror. I really liked that. DAOC had three distinct areas to play in, and three distinct sets of classes to play with.

When ESO came out with three factions, like DAOC, I thought that was great. Until I discovered that each of the sides had identical classes, so it didn't matter which faction you were in. And of course, the classes in DAOC were 5 times more complicated than ESO's. And now all factions can play in all areas, and they all feel the same.

We've gone downhill in that regard.

Nanfoodle

Scot said:

Nanfoodle said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

The sort of bad mistakes we have seen in the past are factions where there is no "mirror" class on the other side. 

Could not disagree more.

Personally, when the industry started mirroring classes, making DPS classes do the same level of DPS but in their own animations, harmonization of skills so class identity no longer mattered. Any class could fill any slot in a team. This was the start of MMO's going downhill. Im still waiting for game developers to get that.     

I don't see how you think mirroring led to the problems you mention, to me it is a must have for balance. As long as the differing animations do not lead to problems it should work well. To me the 'one class suits all' approach came from catering to soloers not those concerned with balance. Class identity still matters with mirroring as long as the classes remain distinct.

Now I am not saying that such balance is always needed, look at Lotro Monster PvP. But I think were the MMO is about territorial control to varying degrees from DAOC onwards that mirroring is important. You are right though in that it leads to a feeling of less uniqueness, there are ways to sort that out mind you. If you make what is different about the "mirrored" classes only effect PvE then you retain the PvP balance.

At the end of the day even without the likes of duelling this is about player perception as much as it is about what the gameplay is really like. If players think their class, even worse their faction is second rate they will vote with their feet, which no game wants happening. As always though studios need to be wary of player demands, we all know how things which are not really an issue get trumped up out of all proportion.

Games that did not have mirrors or had skills in each class that was unique and made that class shine at that job. Made team dynamics fun. Someone leaves and you get a different class and the play style changes for everyone. Making the game fun and not the same game play over and over. Also having unbalanced classes on both sides, means you have tools to deal with different situations. Much like Magic the Gathering. Every color has its advantage and each color set has a counter to a different color. This is way more fun then everyone has a equally matched deck. Ashes of creation is doing this. In games its often called a paper, rock, scissor combat style. Where each class has powerful skills that other classes have counters for.  

Scot

Slapshot1188 said:

Sorry.  Will simply have to respectfully disagree.  I think there are 2 camps.  One camp wants a more even, sportlike game.  That appears to be your camp, and it might even be the more popular one.  The other camp doesn't care about even fights.  We just want a WAR.  We want to despise the other side BECAUSE they have class X or Race Y.  I want to look across the battlefield and see "other", not my twin.  I want to curse the damn Mid Zerker with his broken Left Axe.  I want to charge into the Albs protected by the "double bubble" from my two Wardens and feel the frustration of my enemy.

To me, MMORPGs simply cannot outdo games that are built around sportlike PvP if that's the goal.  So I say, embrace the uniquness that is the MMORPG. Where we are not the same.  Where we have not only varying skill but various levels, various builds, various equipment, various levels of communication.

I find I can enjoy both, Lotro or the more evenly balanced, but you are right MMOs can't compete with the fair playing filed of a sport. For me this is just about being as balanced as you can, but in MMOs that don't have territory Wars you don't even need balance to be the first priority. I will add that I take your point about faction pride, but I am just being realistic about this, modern players are just not going to see imbalance as a source of faction pride and reason for WAR...sadly, they will just moan.

Nanfoodle said:

Games that did not have mirrors or had skills in each class that was unique and made that class shine at that job. Made team dynamics fun. Someone leaves and you get a different class and the play style changes for everyone. Making the game fun and not the same game play over and over. Also having unbalanced classes on both sides, means you have tools to deal with different situations. Much like Magic the Gathering. Every color has its advantage and each color set has a counter to a different color. This is way more fun then everyone has a equally matched deck. Ashes of creation is doing this. In games its often called a paper, rock, scissor combat style. Where each class has powerful skills that other classes have counters for.  

You mentioned this before, it is not mirroring that is making classes more cookie cutter it is catering to solo casual players. You can have unique classes with very different skills and powers within your faction. The fact that the classes are mirrored does not change that either in PvP or PvE.

So to me we loose little and gain a lot, with the best will in the world you must realise that players will complain no end about balance under your preferred system and gods of MMO forbid you have dueling! But my preferred system is not perfect, nothing in gaming is.

The_Korrigan

When it comes to PvP, most player input can be resumed to this :
"Class/Weapon X just killed me, please nerf so I can kill it with ease".

There are some honest players among them, no doubt, there are even some posting here I believe, but for most multiplayer games players, it's all about supremacy and pwing those noobs, and not true balance.