Originally posted by Jodokai What is really important to this whole discussion is WHY you feel it is so awful. I mean if it is all about the compitition, then maybe you're taking the game too seriously. I mean if I buy a Super Sword of Slaying off ebay, how does that effect you at all? Unless you take the time to actively search out this sort of thing, you would probably never know. All too often the real reason people hate it is because they've been trained to. Someone somewhere said it was "evil" and it just sort of caught on. There really are no valid reasons against it, it's just not cool to say you do it or advocate it.
I can give you a couple of reasons. For one it affects the low to midlevel items and crafting. If everyone buys the uber items from the get go, all the other items are worthless. Second it often upsets the economy of the game. People can set items any price they want as long as the people who buy gold can afford them. On the other hand the people who decide to try to raise money the traditional way is SOL.
I dunno seems to me that MMORPGs are paced in such away to have a gradual progression. Buying and gold may be the fast track approach, but ever since buying and selling items out of the game has exploded I can't really think of anyways it has benefitted gameplay.
Maybe that is what everyone should be asking how does it benefit the game
I can give you a couple of reasons. For one it affects the low to midlevel items and crafting. If everyone buys the uber items from the get go, all the other items are worthless. Second it often upsets the economy of the game. People can set items any price they want as long as the people who buy gold can afford them. On the other hand the people who decide to try to raise money the traditional way is SOL.
I dunno seems to me that MMORPGs are paced in such away to have a gradual progression. Buying and gold may be the fast track approach, but ever since buying and selling items out of the game has exploded I can't really think of anyways it has benefitted gameplay.
Maybe that is what everyone should be asking how does it benefit the game
'It ruins the economy' is one of the most common arguments, and it just isn't true, or if it is true it takes longer than any MMO has ever been out.
Go into any MMO that has been around awhile so you konw people have been buying money for the game for quite some time. I promise you, at 5th level (or equivilent) you will be able to buy whatever someone who played the game at realease could buy at 5th level, and probably more. This means the ecomomy is fine for the low to mid level. You may pay 10 gold where they paid 1 gold for the item, but you're making 50 gold where they only make 5. The prices will raise, but the potential to make more money will raise at almost the same rate.
As far as everyone buying the uber weapons instead of the mid to low level ones: This would happen anyway, even without buying and selling on ebay. The people that make the item (or loot it) couldn't sell it at extreme prices, so their prices would come down to where it would sell and everyone could afford it.
I'm not saying it does benefit thte game at all. What I'm saying is it has no effect positive or negative, except in the case of SOE's Station Exchange. The money they earn from this allows them to offer five MMO's for $21 a month.
Originally posted by Jodokai "It ruins the economy' is one of the most common arguments, and it just isn't true, or if it is true it takes longer than any MMO has ever been out. Go into any MMO that has been around awhile so you konw people have been buying money for the game for quite some time. I promise you, at 5th level (or equivilent) you will be able to buy whatever someone who played the game at realease could buy at 5th level, and probably more. This means the ecomomy is fine for the low to mid level. You may pay 10 gold where they paid 1 gold for the item, but you're making 50 gold where they only make 5. The prices will raise, but the potential to make more money will raise at almost the same rate. As far as everyone buying the uber weapons instead of the mid to low level ones: This would happen anyway, even without buying and selling on ebay. The people that make the item (or loot it) couldn't sell it at extreme prices, so their prices would come down to where it would sell and everyone could afford it. I'm not saying it does benefit thte game at all. What I'm saying is it has no effect positive or negative, except in the case of SOE's Station Exchange. The money they earn from this allows them to offer five MMO's for $21 a month.
I disagree. Just to set things straight I never said it ruins the economy, so let's get that out of the way.
I hate to use a real life examples, but I will anyways. If someone gave me millions of dollars, would I continue to work at my current job? Probably not. I would guess the same is true with a MMORPG, would a person need or want to farm those leather pelts to sell to crafters who inturn produce items? Probably not. Also as far as items are concerned, why should developers put in the basic items when people just will buy the best. I look at a game like guild wars, where people buy gold can hire a runner and get the end game armor right away(which I guess is approved by the devs)...make me wonder why they put in the other sets of armor
As far as pricing is concerned, I have been in a couple of games where botters have strip mined loot and inflated the items to ridiculous prices to the point where you almost had to buy gold in order to afford anything. Pretty soon the concept of money becomes almost irrelevent.
I guess this may be the trend of the current MMOs, and if it's expected to be part of the gameplay I guess thats the way it's supposed to be. But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something. Seems to me most of the games SOE has put out lately like EQ2 aren't exactly bringing in the numbers so I look at it more of a desparation move on thier part not something that is revolutuionary.
My post in my guild's forums when Station Exchange was announced:
When real life laws are concerned, there is a phenomenon called "civil disobedience", when a considerable amount of people does not follow a certain law (for example, copyright laws or recreational drug use). This does not mean that the law is unfair necessarily, but it is a sign that public opinion does not condone or does not understand the content of the law. For example, concerning copyright laws, most people do not fully grasp how something immaterial can be sold, or consider the law unethical, believing that there is no property in intellectual work.
Another usual instance of this, in Europe, is immigration. Despite previous laws and law enforcement in Greece, there was a high percentage of illegal immigrants. Deporting them does not work (as has been proven in the recent decades), and, by being illegaly here, they are degrading the economy (they receive payment but do not pay taxes). The realistic way to deal with this is to legalise their stay in Greece. Therefore, the employers have to follow the law and pay them above the mininum allowed wage (which also means there is no differentiation in pay among an immigrant and a local) and the immigrants have to pay tax. Thus, legalising it solved the financial problem that can be caused.
From this point of view, buying and selling virtual items with real cash was an activity that was either silently condoned or done by a considerable amount of players. It is impossible to track and ban every player that did this, so the other way to deal with it is simple: legalise it.
There is, however, a HUGE difference: THIS IS A FREAKING GAME. A game, it's supposed to be fun, relaxing, not a job. The decision SoE took is going to cause lots of trouble that derives from unhealthy competition. A few farming teams are already known to harass other players and monopolise certain areas. Such a decision will only make the problem bigger and I'm afraid it will cause the game to be less entertaining. And I think most would agree that a job usually is not entertaining, and that's what it will turn into, a job.
Currently playing: * City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant. * City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
I disagree. Just to set things straight I never said it ruins the economy, so let's get that out of the way. I stand corrected you said it threw out of wack (or something to that effect), which is still only partly true. At first things will be goofed, but as the money starts to distribute it balances out again. I hate to use a real life examples, but I will anyways. If someone gave me millions of dollars, would I continue to work at my current job? Probably not. I would guess the same is true with a MMORPG, would a person need or want to farm those leather pelts to sell to crafters who inturn produce items? First bad example of real life situation. The fact is in MMO's you're foced in to a certain job. If you're only level 15 you can't wear level 50 armor, you can only buy and wear what you can use. You also have to consider in the real world you could invest taht 1mil make 10% a year and live on 100k a year. You don't have a stock market in MMO's. IF you don't have a stead income that million will go away. This is why you continue to harvest and sell it. Probably not. Also as far as items are concerned, why should developers put in the basic items when people just will buy the best. I look at a game like guild wars, where people buy gold can hire a runner and get the end game armor right away(which I guess is approved by the devs)...make me wonder why they put in the other sets of armor Again you can only buy what you can use As far as pricing is concerned, I have been in a couple of games where botters have strip mined loot and inflated the items to ridiculous prices to the point where you almost had to buy gold in order to afford anything. Pretty soon the concept of money becomes almost irrelevent. Which games? I would be it was only rare and powerful items, but this has NOTHING to do with ebaying, it's the simple law of supply and demand that rasies the prices. If the farmers were farming it, the prices would go down due to the larger supply. I guess this may be the trend of the current MMOs, and if it's expected to be part of the gameplay I guess thats the way it's supposed to be. But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something. See again, I don't need anyone else to tell me if I earned something or not. I know I did, if someone else doesn't, they have to work that out themselves. Seems to me most of the games SOE has put out lately like EQ2 aren't exactly bringing in the numbers so I look at it more of a desparation move on thier part not something that is revolutuionary. First, developers will tell you that with 50k subscribers a game is profitable, at 250k it is an incredible success. Last time I checked 3 out of the 5 SOE games had over 250k subscribers. Hardly an act of desperation. You're also forgetting the fact that with this "non-revolutionary act of desperation" SOE allows you play 4 (soon to be 5) MMO's for $6USD over what people are paying for WoW.
I see an awful many people asking what fun is there to buy all the items you need, as if trying to use that as a way to justify their opposition to this idea. News flash, some people might find the game more enjoyable that way, and you are in no position to force others to play a certain way, or for the same reasons you do.
If someone buys items with real money to show off, I applaud the company for allowing it because then I have a steady stream of idiots to laugh at in-game. It is so amusing to think how much real money they paid just to make themselves look ridiculous. Kinda like if someone paid for a chance to entertain me. Go fools go! :-)
Originally posted by Jade6 I see an awful many people asking what fun is there to buy all the items you need, as if trying to use that as a way to justify their opposition to this idea. News flash, some people might find the game more enjoyable that way, and you are in no position to force others to play a certain way, or for the same reasons you do. The main argument I have against the selling of virtual items for real cash, is that it encourages poor behaviour in some people who now treat the game as a money-profession. It is this kind of attitude that takes the fun out of the game, not for the person playing for money but for the people just in it to have a good time. Coming into contact with people hogging in-game resources or mobs just to make a quick buck are preventing other players from utilising that part of the game. Recently there have been a few incidents where so called farming guilds have set up operations in some games around the clock and anyone who interacts with them is either ignored or abused. That is not what the games are about. If someone buys items with real money to show off, I applaud the company for allowing it because then I have a steady stream of idiots to laugh at in-game. It is so amusing to think how much real money they paid just to make themselves look ridiculous. Kinda like if someone paid for a chance to entertain me. Go fools go! :-) I have nothing against people buying virtual items to show off with but it is the suppliers of such things that cause the problems. Kind of like with drugs, it's the drug dealers who are really violent and anti-social but without people buying drugs they wouldn't be there.
You're absolutely right, this is the ONLY valid argument that I can see against buying/selling. What I hope (and this is probably just a dream), is the companies that make buying and selling legal don't have to waste time looking for the buyers and sellers, now then can concentrate on getting rid of the farmers that harass other players.
First bad example of real life situation. The fact is in MMO's you're foced in to a certain job. If you're only level 15 you can't wear level 50 armor, you can only buy and wear what you can use. You also have to consider in the real world you could invest taht 1mil make 10% a year and live on 100k a year. You don't have a stock market in MMO's. IF you don't have a stead income that million will go away. This is why you continue to harvest and sell it.
Once again, you're not reading what I said I said MILLIONS not MILLLION, as I knew you'd come up with that argument. It's not really the point though, as the reason why I don't like to give real world examples. The point being that people who buy gold are not as prone to contribute into the game as the ways it was designed
Again you can only buy what you can use
In GW there is no level cap for armor, since the only realy boundary to aquiring the armor is being able to get get to the area (by a high level person basically dragging you there), as long as you have the cash you can buy your way there.
Which games? I would be it was only rare and powerful items, but this has NOTHING to do with ebaying, it's the simple law of supply and demand that rasies the prices. If the farmers were farming it, the prices would go down due to the larger supply.
FFXI for one, and actually it has. The prices of these items are so high now. What does it have to do with ebay?.. I didn't really think I needed to explain but it would seem that if you can't afford these items, which as you know if you've ever played FFXI are almost required to get into some parties, you'd need to go outside the game. Oh and I wonder what happens to the proceeds after? Ebay
See again, I don't need anyone else to tell me if I earned something or not. I know I did, if someone else doesn't, they have to work that out themselves.
Well, I don't think I ever said you did...wow you should stop assuming what I said. I said for 'me' personally. As a paying customer of the MMORPG I should be able to play the way I want too without having to feel I need to buy gold or items outside the game ...yes? I mean if the game was designed to not to get injections of gold from the outside, I should not be expected to.
First, developers will tell you that with 50k subscribers a game is profitable, at 250k it is an incredible success. Last time I checked 3 out of the 5 SOE games had over 250k subscribers. Hardly an act of desperation. You're also forgetting the fact that with this "non-revolutionary act of desperation" SOE allows you play 4 (soon to be 5) MMO's for $6USD over what people are paying for WoW.
Really? huh.... That's probably why you can pick up a copy of EQ2 for $9.99 and I get emails begging me to come back. Seems to me they would need to bargain basement their software spam me to come back if they were so successful.
Also I'd point out that I have an opinion just like you, that doesn't make it any less valid than yours. I'm not saying how to play, I'm not saying my way is the best way.... I'm just discussing and pointing out the reasons why I don't agree with it.
> Coming into contact with people hogging in-game resources or mobs just to make > a quick buck are preventing other players from utilising that part of the game.
Solution: use instancing for main loot areas, as in WoW.
> Kind of like with drugs, it's the drug dealers who are really violent and anti- > social but without people buying drugs they wouldn't be there.
Solution: legalise drugs so that they can be controlled.
Originally posted by Bhob Once again, you're not reading what I said I said MILLIONS not MILLLION, OH So that invalidates everything I said, because I didn't add the s? No the same thing still applies. as I knew you'd come up with that argument. It's not really the point though, as the reason why I don't like to give real world examples. The point being that people who buy gold are not as prone to contribute into the game as the ways it was designed So people who don't ebay don't always contribute. In SWG it's totally player run econmony. Plaer Crafters make the best items, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't craft isn't contributing. In GW there is no level cap for armor, since the only realy boundary to aquiring the armor is being able to get get to the area (by a high level person basically dragging you there), as long as you have the cash you can buy your way there. GW isn't a typical MMO, and this was the way the game was designed, to encourage people to ebay.
Which games? I would be it was only rare and powerful items, but this has NOTHING to do with ebaying, it's the simple law of supply and demand that rasies the prices. If the farmers were farming it, the prices would go down due to the larger supply. FFXI for one, and actually it has. The prices of these items are so high now. What does it have to do with ebay?.. I didn't really think I needed to explain but it would seem that if you can't afford these items, which as you know if you've ever played FFXI are almost required to get into some parties, you'd need to go outside the game. Oh and I wonder what happens to the proceeds after? Ebay So you're saying the prices are high because of ebay and people have to use ebay because the prices are high? Look I didn't really want to get into an econimcs lesson, so I'll make this quick and to the point: If I buy money on ebay it will be distibuted to the server. I can afford something at a high price, ther person selling that item now has my ebay moeny. The people supplying that person can now get paid more, the suppliers now have more money. Now everyone has more money with only one person ebaying. Now back your situation: The cost of things have to do with the simple law of supply and demand. Supply is low demand is very high price is very high. Just because you can't figure out how to earn enough without ebaying doesn't mean others haven't. Well, I don't think I ever said you did...wow you should stop assuming what I said. I said for 'me' personally. As a paying customer of the MMORPG I should be able to play the way I want too without having to feel I need to buy gold or items outside the game ...yes? I mean if the game was designed to not to get injections of gold from the outside, I should not be expected to. Actually I'm not assuming anything jsut going by what you said, and I quote : "But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something." If you didn't need anyone else's approval it wouldn't matter if you were the only one on the server who didn't ebay, you would still feel like you accomplished something.
Really? huh.... That's probably why you can pick up a copy of EQ2 for $9.99 and I get emails begging me to come back. Seems to me they would need to bargain basement their software spam me to come back if they were so successful. EXACTLY Now you understand. You see the money SOE is making allows them to lower the price of their software. Oh and just an F.Y.I WoW sends me the same spam "begging me to come back". I guess they're in trouble too right? Also I'd point out that I have an opinion just like you, that doesn't make it any less valid than yours. I'm not saying how to play, I'm not saying my way is the best way.... I'm just discussing and pointing out the reasons why I don't agree with it.
And I'm just trying to make you see, the reasons you have, the reasons that have been spouted by thousands of MMO gamers, just aren't valid. You say you hate it because it borks economies, but this is short term at best. You say you don't like it because you want to feel like you accomplished something, yet claim not to need anyone else to verify for you that you've accomplished something. One of those things can't be true as they are mutually exclusive. Like I said before, most people don't like it because they were told not to like it. It seems unethical and gamers like to pretend they're moral untouchable ESPECIALLY on forums. If any MMO player asked any other MMO player if they bought anything of ebay, 99.99% would say they haven't, yet SOMEONE is doing it or it wouldn't be such a large business. The MMO scocitety has decided it is unethical and trumped up reasons to support their case, but no one wants to take the time to think on their own.
OH So that invalidates everything I said, because I didn't add the s? No the same thing still applies.
No not everything, just the fact that a million dollars isn't that much
So people who don't ebay don't always contribute. In SWG it's totally player run econmony. Plaer Crafters make the best items, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't craft isn't contributing.
I agree about SWG though most of the mid level stuff isn't worth a whole lot because no one wants to buy it, not to mention the fact that I've been to many abandoned merchants that have zero inventory.
GW isn't a typical MMO, and this was the way the game was designed, to encourage people to ebay.
I agree hence the reason I don't play it. I don't find it fun to get everything at once. They also have a big botting problem....but then again I'm sure Anet thinks that's ok too
So you're saying the prices are high because of ebay and people have to use ebay because the prices are high? Look I didn't really want to get into an econimcs lesson, so I'll make this quick and to the point: If I buy money on ebay it will be distibuted to the server. I can afford something at a high price, ther person selling that item now has my ebay moeny. The people supplying that person can now get paid more, the suppliers now have more money. Now everyone has more money with only one person ebaying.
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying and once again you're missing the point. It always kills me when someone says they know economics. I'll try and make it simple for you, the gil does not go back into the game it goes back to the gil sellers. And no not everyone does it but it makes it harder for the people who don't
Now back your situation: The cost of things have to do with the simple law of supply and demand. Supply is low demand is very high price is very high. Just because you can't figure out how to earn enough without ebaying doesn't mean others haven't.
Yes there is supply and demand but the ebays unfavorably tilt it in thier favor.
Actually I'm not assuming anything jsut going by what you said, and I quote : "But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something." If you didn't need anyone else's approval it wouldn't matter if you were the only one on the server who didn't ebay, you would still feel like you accomplished something.
I'm not sure what your getting at, if someone approves is not the point. Until a game says somewhere in the directions that buying stuff on ebay is part of the game I don't think it's really playing as designed.
EXACTLY Now you understand. You see the money SOE is making allows them to lower the price of their software. Oh and just an F.Y.I WoW sends me the same spam "begging me to come back". I guess they're in trouble too right?
Actually I've never gotten anything from WoW. The only people who email me is people who's numbers are dropping. If you want to think EQ2 is a success, go ahead.
And I'm just trying to make you see, the reasons you have, the reasons that have been spouted by thousands of MMO gamers, just aren't valid. You say you hate it because it borks economies, but this is short term at best. You say you don't like it because you want to feel like you accomplished something, yet claim not to need anyone else to verify for you that you've accomplished something. One of those things can't be true as they are mutually exclusive.
So you're saying thousands of gamers who enjoy and play MMOs are wrong, and you're right? I think there are reasons for and against selling on ebay, both have valid points, but I don't have to agree with them.. there a difference in disagreeing and explaining why and saying everyone is wrong but me. That doesn't prove anything.
Like I said before, most people don't like it because they were told not to like it. It seems unethical and gamers like to pretend they're moral untouchable ESPECIALLY on forums. If any MMO player asked any other MMO player if they bought anything of ebay, 99.99% would say they haven't, yet SOMEONE is doing it or it wouldn't be such a large business. The MMO scocitety has decided it is unethical and trumped up reasons to support their case, but no one wants to take the time to think on their own.
Like I said I don't like it because it ruins the game, in my opinion. And have you ever considered the people who have bought stuff and denied it don't admit to it because they are too embarassed? The current games I've played have all had problems with botting, and exploits and the sudden news about unfair labor practices in the east with the gold farms.....yea that sounds like a real positive thing for gaming.
Most of this I'm just not going to convice you of, so I'm not going to bother. I've proven it doesn't ruin the economy but you don't want to see it so that's fine (oh and I do have a minor in economics so I do know a little bit about it, sort of why I take such a keen interest in MMO's economies).
The main thing I wanted to explain, is we're talking about opionions here, I can't call anyone else's opinion wrong just like I can't say mine is right. What I am saying is that people don't think for themselves. For as long as you've been playing MMO's you've heard buying off ebay is wrong and it ruins the game. People have spouted off reasons why it does, so people just buy into it. Society feels it's wrong so it must by. You also have to remember that society also felt women weren't smart enough to vote, so yes they can be wrong.
Think for yourself is all I'm saying. No one in all the years I've been having this argument can come up with a valid reason why it's wrong, or hurts the game at all.
To explain the part that wasn't clear: If you complete a quest that's hard for you to do, and you get this awesome sword, and you say to your buddy, "Dude, I just did this ultra hard quest, and got this cool sword" and your buddy goes, "So, that guy over there just bought the same sword off ebay", how do you feel at this moment?
A) Like crap. All my hard work was for nothing and my experience was cheapened.
Great. I just finished a quest that was really difficult for me, and got my just reward. I don't care if I'm the last person on the server to get this, I got it and I feel good about it.
If you're an A person, this means what others do can effect how you feel about what you've done. You fit the "I need other people to verify my accomplishments" catagory.
If you are a B then someone buying off ebay CANNOT effect your feeling of accomplishment.
I personally think the only thing that should matter in a video game is one's ability to play the game. If how much money you spend determine's how 'good' you are in a game I won't play it. Simple as that.
BTW, I'm an A person, I'd expect that player to have obtained the item by the rules set within the game. If the rules were that you could buy the item than it would be acceptable, otherwise I'd assume that player lacked integrity.
Paraphrasing a few posts in this thread: All MMO players play for different reasons.
The reason why some MMO players have difficulty understanding why another player would spend cash to buy a virtual item is that the buyer is not, in fact, playing the game. The buyer is playing a meta-game. The rules of their meta-game may only be slightly different from the game the designers intended -- for example the meta-game player buys or sells a single item once after which the player plays the game "as intended."
Or the meta-game player could follow very different "rules" by developing a character that is focused on farming for real-world profit. This meta-game player is often interested in cornering the market, in predicting where the next great demand will be, in tracking the value of various farmed areas on different servers, etc. For this meta-game player, the "game" is exploiting something of little value to him/her to create something of more value to a buyer.
And then there is the meta-game player who does not develop a character at all. This meta-game player just trades. In this case, the "game" is surfing the trade forums, marketing, buying low, and selling high.
I am sure you can imagine other meta-games that might appeal to others but not to you.
This post is not about right/wrong, legal/illegal, or even what is good/bad for a game/economy. It is just my humble attempt to point out that the reason some do not play MMOs as intended is they want to play a different game.
Some game designers/developers may work harder to incorporate elements of the more "popular" meta-games into their games and if this frustrates you, I am sure the pendulum will swing the other way eventually. In other words, companies that cater to the "meta-gamers" will flood the market with products then savvy companies will make some great "MMO-traditionalist-centered" games to fill the void.
[I dislike labeling people, but I think you catch my drift]
Originally posted by ajaxx I personally think the only thing that should matter in a video game is one's ability to play the game. If how much money you spend determine's how 'good' you are in a game I won't play it. Simple as that.
BTW, I'm an A person, I'd expect that player to have obtained the item by the rules set within the game. If the rules were that you could buy the item than it would be acceptable, otherwise I'd assume that player lacked integrity.
And I think the only thing that should matter is having fun. Keyword in video game being game.
Okay and if that player does lack integrity, how does that effect your accomplishments? Did it make what you did easier? All you lose is the ability to brag. "Look at me, look at what I have done!" that's all you've lost, because people can claim you bought it.
Originally posted by BitterGamer Wow imagine that! An Ogaming/IGE affiliate patting SOE on the back for being sellouts... never could have saw that coming countdown to post being removed - 1 .. 2 .. 3 ..
Yes, but that's not even the funny part: They let IGE support them but lock and delete threads where people say they are selling accounts.
Originally posted by Jodokai Most of this I'm just not going to convice you of, so I'm not going to bother. I've proven it doesn't ruin the economy but you don't want to see it so that's fine (oh and I do have a minor in economics so I do know a little bit about it, sort of why I take such a keen interest in MMO's economies).
The only thing you have proven is you only read what you want to read. I've given you several reasons why the gold selling is not good for games, you may choose to disagree but you haven't proven anything.
If you take the economy aspect out of it, the very fact that gold selling breeds botting, duping, and a host of other exploits that break the terms of the EULA should be reason enough. This isn't someone selling thier character off when they retire.
If you are so keen of in game economies you should do a little more research on gaming economies and player psychology not real world economies. Being a minor in economics doesn't really impress me or convince me of anything. I've worked on a MMO, so what?
Originally posted by Clatra Paraphrasing a few posts in this thread: All MMO players play for different reasons. The reason why some MMO players have difficulty understanding why another player would spend cash to buy a virtual item is that the buyer is not, in fact, playing the game. The buyer is playing a meta-game. The rules of their meta-game may only be slightly different from the game the designers intended -- for example the meta-game player buys or sells a single item once after which the player plays the game "as intended." Or the meta-game player could follow very different "rules" by developing a character that is focused on farming for real-world profit. This meta-game player is often interested in cornering the market, in predicting where the next great demand will be, in tracking the value of various farmed areas on different servers, etc. For this meta-game player, the "game" is exploiting something of little value to him/her to create something of more value to a buyer. And then there is the meta-game player who does not develop a character at all. This meta-game player just trades. In this case, the "game" is surfing the trade forums, marketing, buying low, and selling high. I am sure you can imagine other meta-games that might appeal to others but not to you. This post is not about right/wrong, legal/illegal, or even what is good/bad for a game/economy. It is just my humble attempt to point out that the reason some do not play MMOs as intended is they want to play a different game. Some game designers/developers may work harder to incorporate elements of the more "popular" meta-games into their games and if this frustrates you, I am sure the pendulum will swing the other way eventually. In other words, companies that cater to the "meta-gamers" will flood the market with products then savvy companies will make some great "MMO-traditionalist-centered" games to fill the void. [I dislike labeling people, but I think you catch my drift]
I agree that gold sellers do not play the game, they are a business outside the game. They aren't interested in the challenge of gameplay just to make money. Gold buyers play the game except they don't want to deal with the niceties of things like having to do things themselve. They pay for the gold sellers 'time' to raise the money.
There are alot of people (including myself) who do play the games economy, farm, craft, buy low sell high ect, and thats what makes MMO's awesome in my opinion. But it's all in-game. The people who buy gold off people on ebay want to do none of that for the most part and just makes things more difficult (by supporting gold sellers) for the people who want to play by the rules. This is only my opinion.
There is a trend to make MMOs easier and more approachable to casual users nowadays and I think that gold selling goes hand in hand with this. If there are games that encourage this that's fine, but as long as a game does not support gold selling it is not right.
FYI average price for items that are lower level on shadowhaven server hover around 5gold on antonia bayle its close to 20 silver everyone knows money is hard to come by so do the math and see that being able to purchase gold or plat with real cash ruins the market for everyone even the people paying cash luckily SOE kept it to two servers yay!
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
The Gameing world has Changed over the years, But as for Real Life Cash to be used to better your advantage or to do whatever with is not right in my opinion.
(1) not Fair to the ones that Bust there bu**s off trying to do it the way it was ment to Play/Build/enjoy,
(2) Its a Game not a Factory Outlets store.
(3) MMORPG'S are Getting way out of hand, at the Beginning thay were great, because there was Trust among the People, now it has become what it has become.
"Another question that raises itself in this story is whether or not these practices are fair. Lets face it. Most of us cant drop $2,000 to pick up a level 50/50 character and have to do it the hard way:"
Well there in actually lies the problem doesnt it....
Far from anyone seeing leveling up in EQ2 as "fun" or "a game" , noooooooo its described as "the hard way" and who would disagree. Its a treadmill that any self respecting hampster would rather die than jump on, let alone an otherwise inteligent human being.
Make the freakin games FUN and no one will want to buy the effort... the effort will be FUN!!
I swear this entire industry has lost the plot BIG TIME
As for the opening paragraph.... "Blizzard strictly prohibits the sale of items"
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I personally hate the whole concept of buying in-game property with rl money. This practice encourages cheating, hacking, and farming. I think the only way honest players will ever get anything done about it is start making our voices heard. Start writing people, work on getting laws changed. For those who say it wont go away, if those that dont want start making a little noise it will go away.
Its sad that in American society we have a bunch of lazy people who just because they have the money they think it makes it ok. And I say this because yea the gold farmers may be in china but the lazy people buying the goods are mostly in America. And it doesnt make you better than me because you paid $2k real money for a make believe sword, it just makes you really stupid. And Im not jealous of you Im laughing at you.
I understand why there is such animosity towards buying in-game items with money. Because those that are against it feel it gives the purchasers an "advantage".
I've seen a number of quesitonable arguments ranging from it's a conflict of interest for SOE to profit (odd, since it's thier product....) to it's cheating by those that buy the item (again odd since the'yre not using an exploit to do so).
The bottom line is that money is time pure and simple. I may not have the time that others have, but I have the money to replace that time, so I level the field for me since I am at a disadvantage to the grinder that puts in 8 to 10 hours a day.
In a game world where how powerful you are is ONLY related to how much you play and has nothing to do with how mature or intelligent you are it's a screwed paradigm.
Having folks purchase in-game items doesn't take away from the game for those that don't or can't. If my buddy buys all his high level gear it doesn't mean I have less fun by hunting mobs for mine.
Oh, I know the argument, "if folks pay money then others will "work" to gain that item to sell, and camp the spots 24/7 to get that item."
I've seen complaints of this in WoW with "chinese farmers" working for IGE; and complaints when I used to play Shadowbane. Ah, SB, there is an interesting example.
In shadowbane how good you were was soley related to gold. You could easily cap out your level; but building a city, maintaing a guld took a lot of gold. And the ONLY way to get gold was to farm. And, farming took time... a lot of time. That came was perfectly suited for buying gold.
I did when I played. Because my guild was filled with adults; parents with jobs. We did not have the time to have presence in the game 24 hours a day; we did have time-zone overlap so someone was almost always on, but getting gold was hard. So, we resulted to buying it off EBAY. This kept our city afloat. We (my wife and I) traded money for time.
WoW is the same thing. Exept BZ threw a monkey wrench into the mix with Bind on Pickup. So, you REALLY do have to participate in that 8 to 10 hour long raid to get a chance to loot that epic BoP item. Which means raid after raid after raid etc...
So, only those with tons of time have their full set.
And, these are also the folks that scream the loudest (in my experience) against purchasing things with real money.
I think hamstringing yoru business model by excluding this path to revenue is stupid for any business running an MMORPG. Sony did the smart thing (buisiness wise) by enabling folks and allowing them to do what they would anyway while Sony got some profit from it.
Comments
I can give you a couple of reasons. For one it affects the low to midlevel items and crafting. If everyone buys the uber items from the get go, all the other items are worthless. Second it often upsets the economy of the game. People can set items any price they want as long as the people who buy gold can afford them.
On the other hand the people who decide to try to raise money the traditional way is SOL.
I dunno seems to me that MMORPGs are paced in such away to have a gradual progression. Buying and gold may be the fast track approach, but ever since buying and selling items out of the game has exploded I can't really think of anyways it has benefitted gameplay.
Maybe that is what everyone should be asking how does it benefit the game
'It ruins the economy' is one of the most common arguments, and it just isn't true, or if it is true it takes longer than any MMO has ever been out.
Go into any MMO that has been around awhile so you konw people have been buying money for the game for quite some time. I promise you, at 5th level (or equivilent) you will be able to buy whatever someone who played the game at realease could buy at 5th level, and probably more. This means the ecomomy is fine for the low to mid level. You may pay 10 gold where they paid 1 gold for the item, but you're making 50 gold where they only make 5. The prices will raise, but the potential to make more money will raise at almost the same rate.
As far as everyone buying the uber weapons instead of the mid to low level ones: This would happen anyway, even without buying and selling on ebay. The people that make the item (or loot it) couldn't sell it at extreme prices, so their prices would come down to where it would sell and everyone could afford it.
I'm not saying it does benefit thte game at all. What I'm saying is it has no effect positive or negative, except in the case of SOE's Station Exchange. The money they earn from this allows them to offer five MMO's for $21 a month.
I disagree. Just to set things straight I never said it ruins the economy, so let's get that out of the way.
I hate to use a real life examples, but I will anyways. If someone gave me millions of dollars, would I continue to work at my current job? Probably not. I would guess the same is true with a MMORPG, would a person need or want to farm those leather pelts to sell to crafters who inturn produce items? Probably not. Also as far as items are concerned, why should developers put in the basic items when people just will buy the best. I look at a game like guild wars, where people buy gold can hire a runner and get the end game armor right away(which I guess is approved by the devs)...make me wonder why they put in the other sets of armor
As far as pricing is concerned, I have been in a couple of games where botters have strip mined loot and inflated the items to ridiculous prices to the point where you almost had to buy gold in order to afford anything. Pretty soon the concept of money becomes almost irrelevent.
I guess this may be the trend of the current MMOs, and if it's expected to be part of the gameplay I guess thats the way it's supposed to be. But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something. Seems to me most of the games SOE has put out lately like EQ2 aren't exactly bringing in the numbers so I look at it more of a desparation move on thier part not something that is revolutuionary.
My post in my guild's forums when Station Exchange was announced:
When real life laws are concerned, there is a phenomenon called "civil disobedience", when a considerable amount of people does not follow a certain law (for example, copyright laws or recreational drug use). This does not mean that the law is unfair necessarily, but it is a sign that public opinion does not condone or does not understand the content of the law. For example, concerning copyright laws, most people do not fully grasp how something immaterial can be sold, or consider the law unethical, believing that there is no property in intellectual work.
Another usual instance of this, in Europe, is immigration. Despite previous laws and law enforcement in Greece, there was a high percentage of illegal immigrants. Deporting them does not work (as has been proven in the recent decades), and, by being illegaly here, they are degrading the economy (they receive payment but do not pay taxes). The realistic way to deal with this is to legalise their stay in Greece. Therefore, the employers have to follow the law and pay them above the mininum allowed wage (which also means there is no differentiation in pay among an immigrant and a local) and the immigrants have to pay tax. Thus, legalising it solved the financial problem that can be caused.
From this point of view, buying and selling virtual items with real cash was an activity that was either silently condoned or done by a considerable amount of players. It is impossible to track and ban every player that did this, so the other way to deal with it is simple: legalise it.
There is, however, a HUGE difference: THIS IS A FREAKING GAME. A game, it's supposed to be fun, relaxing, not a job. The decision SoE took is going to cause lots of trouble that derives from unhealthy competition. A few farming teams are already known to harass other players and monopolise certain areas. Such a decision will only make the problem bigger and I'm afraid it will cause the game to be less entertaining. And I think most would agree that a job usually is not entertaining, and that's what it will turn into, a job.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
I see an awful many people asking what fun is there to buy all the items you need, as if trying to use that as a way to justify their opposition to this idea. News flash, some people might find the game more enjoyable that way, and you are in no position to force others to play a certain way, or for the same reasons you do.
If someone buys items with real money to show off, I applaud the company for allowing it because then I have a steady stream of idiots to laugh at in-game. It is so amusing to think how much real money they paid just to make themselves look ridiculous. Kinda like if someone paid for a chance to entertain me. Go fools go! :-)
Sumo_Koten,
You're absolutely right, this is the ONLY valid argument that I can see against buying/selling. What I hope (and this is probably just a dream), is the companies that make buying and selling legal don't have to waste time looking for the buyers and sellers, now then can concentrate on getting rid of the farmers that harass other players.
Originally posted by Jodokai
First bad example of real life situation. The fact is in MMO's you're foced in to a certain job. If you're only level 15 you can't wear level 50 armor, you can only buy and wear what you can use.
You also have to consider in the real world you could invest taht 1mil make 10% a year and live on 100k a year. You don't have a stock market in MMO's. IF you don't have a stead income that million will go away. This is why you continue to harvest and sell it.
Once again, you're not reading what I said I said MILLIONS not MILLLION, as I knew you'd come up with that argument. It's not really the point though, as the reason why I don't like to give real world examples. The point being that people who buy gold are not as prone to contribute into the game as the ways it was designed
Again you can only buy what you can use
In GW there is no level cap for armor, since the only realy boundary to aquiring the armor is being able to get get to the area (by a high level person basically dragging you there), as long as you have the cash you can buy your way there.
Which games? I would be it was only rare and powerful items, but this has NOTHING to do with ebaying, it's the simple law of supply and demand that rasies the prices. If the farmers were farming it, the prices would go down due to the larger supply.
FFXI for one, and actually it has. The prices of these items are so high now. What does it have to do with ebay?.. I didn't really think I needed to explain but it would seem that if you can't afford these items, which as you know if you've ever played FFXI are almost required to get into some parties, you'd need to go outside the game. Oh and I wonder what happens to the proceeds after? Ebay
See again, I don't need anyone else to tell me if I earned something or not. I know I did, if someone else doesn't, they have to work that out themselves.
Well, I don't think I ever said you did...wow you should stop assuming what I said. I said for 'me' personally. As a paying customer of the MMORPG I should be able to play the way I want too without having to feel I need to buy gold or items outside the game ...yes? I mean if the game was designed to not to get injections of gold from the outside, I should not be expected to.
First, developers will tell you that with 50k subscribers a game is profitable, at 250k it is an incredible success. Last time I checked 3 out of the 5 SOE games had over 250k subscribers. Hardly an act of desperation. You're also forgetting the fact that with this "non-revolutionary act of desperation" SOE allows you play 4 (soon to be 5) MMO's for $6USD over what people are paying for WoW.
Really? huh.... That's probably why you can pick up a copy of EQ2 for $9.99 and I get emails begging me to come back. Seems to me they would need to bargain basement their software spam me to come back if they were so successful.
Also I'd point out that I have an opinion just like you, that doesn't make it any less valid than yours.
I'm not saying how to play, I'm not saying my way is the best way.... I'm just discussing and pointing out the reasons why I don't agree with it.
> Coming into contact with people hogging in-game resources or mobs just to make
> a quick buck are preventing other players from utilising that part of the game.
Solution: use instancing for main loot areas, as in WoW.
> Kind of like with drugs, it's the drug dealers who are really violent and anti-
> social but without people buying drugs they wouldn't be there.
Solution: legalise drugs so that they can be controlled.
[quote]Originally posted by Jodokai
[b]
OH So that invalidates everything I said, because I didn't add the s? No the same thing still applies.
No not everything, just the fact that a million dollars isn't that much
So people who don't ebay don't always contribute. In SWG it's totally player run econmony. Plaer Crafters make the best items, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't craft isn't contributing.
I agree about SWG though most of the mid level stuff isn't worth a whole lot because no one wants to buy it, not to mention the fact that I've been to many abandoned merchants that have zero inventory.
GW isn't a typical MMO, and this was the way the game was designed, to encourage people to ebay.
I agree hence the reason I don't play it. I don't find it fun to get everything at once. They also have a big botting problem....but then again I'm sure Anet thinks that's ok too
So you're saying the prices are high because of ebay and people have to use ebay because the prices are high? Look I didn't really want to get into an econimcs lesson, so I'll make this quick and to the point: If I buy money on ebay it will be distibuted to the server. I can afford something at a high price, ther person selling that item now has my ebay moeny. The people supplying that person can now get paid more, the suppliers now have more money. Now everyone has more money with only one person ebaying.
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying and once again you're missing the point. It always kills me when someone says they know economics. I'll try and make it simple for you, the gil does not go back into the game it goes back to the gil sellers. And no not everyone does it but it makes it harder for the people who don't
Now back your situation: The cost of things have to do with the simple law of supply and demand. Supply is low demand is very high price is very high. Just because you can't figure out how to earn enough without ebaying doesn't mean others haven't.
Yes there is supply and demand but the ebays unfavorably tilt it in thier favor.
Actually I'm not assuming anything jsut going by what you said, and I quote : "But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something."
If you didn't need anyone else's approval it wouldn't matter if you were the only one on the server who didn't ebay, you would still feel like you accomplished something.
I'm not sure what your getting at, if someone approves is not the point. Until a game says somewhere in the directions that buying stuff on ebay is part of the game I don't think it's really playing as designed.
EXACTLY Now you understand. You see the money SOE is making allows them to lower the price of their software. Oh and just an F.Y.I WoW sends me the same spam "begging me to come back". I guess they're in trouble too right?
Actually I've never gotten anything from WoW. The only people who email me is people who's numbers are dropping. If you want to think EQ2 is a success, go ahead.
And I'm just trying to make you see, the reasons you have, the reasons that have been spouted by thousands of MMO gamers, just aren't valid. You say you hate it because it borks economies, but this is short term at best. You say you don't like it because you want to feel like you accomplished something, yet claim not to need anyone else to verify for you that you've accomplished something. One of those things can't be true as they are mutually exclusive.
So you're saying thousands of gamers who enjoy and play MMOs are wrong, and you're right?
I think there are reasons for and against selling on ebay, both have valid points, but I don't have to agree with them.. there a difference in disagreeing and explaining why and saying everyone is wrong but me. That doesn't prove anything.
Like I said before, most people don't like it because they were told not to like it. It seems unethical and gamers like to pretend they're moral untouchable ESPECIALLY on forums. If any MMO player asked any other MMO player if they bought anything of ebay, 99.99% would say they haven't, yet SOMEONE is doing it or it wouldn't be such a large business. The MMO scocitety has decided it is unethical and trumped up reasons to support their case, but no one wants to take the time to think on their own.
Like I said I don't like it because it ruins the game, in my opinion. And have you ever considered the people who have bought stuff and denied it don't admit to it because they are too embarassed?
The current games I've played have all had problems with botting, and exploits and the sudden news about unfair labor practices in the east with the gold farms.....yea that sounds like a real positive thing for gaming.
Most of this I'm just not going to convice you of, so I'm not going to bother. I've proven it doesn't ruin the economy but you don't want to see it so that's fine (oh and I do have a minor in economics so I do know a little bit about it, sort of why I take such a keen interest in MMO's economies).
The main thing I wanted to explain, is we're talking about opionions here, I can't call anyone else's opinion wrong just like I can't say mine is right. What I am saying is that people don't think for themselves. For as long as you've been playing MMO's you've heard buying off ebay is wrong and it ruins the game. People have spouted off reasons why it does, so people just buy into it. Society feels it's wrong so it must by. You also have to remember that society also felt women weren't smart enough to vote, so yes they can be wrong.
Think for yourself is all I'm saying. No one in all the years I've been having this argument can come up with a valid reason why it's wrong, or hurts the game at all.
To explain the part that wasn't clear: If you complete a quest that's hard for you to do, and you get this awesome sword, and you say to your buddy, "Dude, I just did this ultra hard quest, and got this cool sword" and your buddy goes, "So, that guy over there just bought the same sword off ebay", how do you feel at this moment?
A) Like crap. All my hard work was for nothing and my experience was cheapened.
If you're an A person, this means what others do can effect how you feel about what you've done. You fit the "I need other people to verify my accomplishments" catagory.
If you are a B then someone buying off ebay CANNOT effect your feeling of accomplishment.
I personally think the only thing that should matter in a video game is one's ability to play the game. If how much money you spend determine's how 'good' you are in a game I won't play it. Simple as that.
BTW, I'm an A person, I'd expect that player to have obtained the item by the rules set within the game. If the rules were that you could buy the item than it would be acceptable, otherwise I'd assume that player lacked integrity.
Wow imagine that! An Ogaming/IGE affiliate patting SOE on the back for being
sellouts... never could have saw that coming
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Paraphrasing a few posts in this thread: All MMO players play for different reasons.
The reason why some MMO players have difficulty understanding why another player would spend cash to buy a virtual item is that the buyer is not, in fact, playing the game. The buyer is playing a meta-game. The rules of their meta-game may only be slightly different from the game the designers intended -- for example the meta-game player buys or sells a single item once after which the player plays the game "as intended."
Or the meta-game player could follow very different "rules" by developing a character that is focused on farming for real-world profit. This meta-game player is often interested in cornering the market, in predicting where the next great demand will be, in tracking the value of various farmed areas on different servers, etc. For this meta-game player, the "game" is exploiting something of little value to him/her to create something of more value to a buyer.
And then there is the meta-game player who does not develop a character at all. This meta-game player just trades. In this case, the "game" is surfing the trade forums, marketing, buying low, and selling high.
I am sure you can imagine other meta-games that might appeal to others but not to you.
This post is not about right/wrong, legal/illegal, or even what is good/bad for a game/economy. It is just my humble attempt to point out that the reason some do not play MMOs as intended is they want to play a different game.
Some game designers/developers may work harder to incorporate elements of the more "popular" meta-games into their games and if this frustrates you, I am sure the pendulum will swing the other way eventually. In other words, companies that cater to the "meta-gamers" will flood the market with products then savvy companies will make some great "MMO-traditionalist-centered" games to fill the void.
[I dislike labeling people, but I think you catch my drift]
And I think the only thing that should matter is having fun. Keyword in video game being game.
Okay and if that player does lack integrity, how does that effect your accomplishments? Did it make what you did easier? All you lose is the ability to brag. "Look at me, look at what I have done!" that's all you've lost, because people can claim you bought it.
The only thing you have proven is you only read what you want to read. I've given you several reasons why the gold selling is not good for games, you may choose to disagree but you haven't proven anything.
If you take the economy aspect out of it, the very fact that gold selling breeds botting, duping, and a host of other exploits that break the terms of the EULA should be reason enough. This isn't someone selling thier character off when they retire.
If you are so keen of in game economies you should do a little more research on gaming economies and player psychology not real world economies. Being a minor in economics doesn't really impress me or convince me of anything. I've worked on a MMO, so what?
I agree that gold sellers do not play the game, they are a business outside the game. They aren't interested in the challenge of gameplay just to make money. Gold buyers play the game except they don't want to deal with the niceties of things like having to do things themselve. They pay for the gold sellers 'time' to raise the money.
There are alot of people (including myself) who do play the games economy, farm, craft, buy low sell high ect, and thats what makes MMO's awesome in my opinion. But it's all in-game. The people who buy gold off people on ebay want to do none of that for the most part and just makes things more difficult (by supporting gold sellers) for the people who want to play by the rules. This is only my opinion.
There is a trend to make MMOs easier and more approachable to casual users nowadays and I think that gold selling goes hand in hand with this. If there are games that encourage this that's fine, but as long as a game does not support gold selling it is not right.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
The Gameing world has Changed over the years, But as for Real Life Cash to be used to better your advantage or to do whatever with is not right in my opinion.
(1) not Fair to the ones that Bust there bu**s off trying to do it the way it was ment to Play/Build/enjoy,
(2) Its a Game not a Factory Outlets store.
(3) MMORPG'S are Getting way out of hand, at the Beginning thay were great, because there was Trust among the People, now it has become what it has become.
Theft, untrust,hackers, need i say more.
"Another question that raises itself in this story is whether or not these practices are fair. Lets face it. Most of us cant drop $2,000 to pick up a level 50/50 character and have to do it the hard way:"
Well there in actually lies the problem doesnt it....
Far from anyone seeing leveling up in EQ2 as "fun" or "a game" , noooooooo its described as "the hard way" and who would disagree. Its a treadmill that any self respecting hampster would rather die than jump on, let alone an otherwise inteligent human being.
Make the freakin games FUN and no one will want to buy the effort... the effort will be FUN!!
I swear this entire industry has lost the plot BIG TIME
As for the opening paragraph.... "Blizzard strictly prohibits the sale of items"
So explain this and stay fashionable..
http://search.ebay.com.au/world-of-warcraft-gold_W0QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsojsZ0QQssPageNameZWLRS
Its a joke...... J O K E.... joke
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I personally hate the whole concept of buying in-game property with rl money. This practice encourages cheating, hacking, and farming. I think the only way honest players will ever get anything done about it is start making our voices heard. Start writing people, work on getting laws changed. For those who say it wont go away, if those that dont want start making a little noise it will go away.
Its sad that in American society we have a bunch of lazy people who just because they have the money they think it makes it ok. And I say this because yea the gold farmers may be in china but the lazy people buying the goods are mostly in America. And it doesnt make you better than me because you paid $2k real money for a make believe sword, it just makes you really stupid. And Im not jealous of you Im laughing at you.
I understand why there is such animosity towards buying in-game items with money. Because those that are against it feel it gives the purchasers an "advantage".
I've seen a number of quesitonable arguments ranging from it's a conflict of interest for SOE to profit (odd, since it's thier product....) to it's cheating by those that buy the item (again odd since the'yre not using an exploit to do so).
The bottom line is that money is time pure and simple. I may not have the time that others have, but I have the money to replace that time, so I level the field for me since I am at a disadvantage to the grinder that puts in 8 to 10 hours a day.
In a game world where how powerful you are is ONLY related to how much you play and has nothing to do with how mature or intelligent you are it's a screwed paradigm.
Having folks purchase in-game items doesn't take away from the game for those that don't or can't. If my buddy buys all his high level gear it doesn't mean I have less fun by hunting mobs for mine.
Oh, I know the argument, "if folks pay money then others will "work" to gain that item to sell, and camp the spots 24/7 to get that item."
I've seen complaints of this in WoW with "chinese farmers" working for IGE; and complaints when I used to play Shadowbane. Ah, SB, there is an interesting example.
In shadowbane how good you were was soley related to gold. You could easily cap out your level; but building a city, maintaing a guld took a lot of gold. And the ONLY way to get gold was to farm. And, farming took time... a lot of time. That came was perfectly suited for buying gold.
I did when I played. Because my guild was filled with adults; parents with jobs. We did not have the time to have presence in the game 24 hours a day; we did have time-zone overlap so someone was almost always on, but getting gold was hard. So, we resulted to buying it off EBAY. This kept our city afloat. We (my wife and I) traded money for time.
WoW is the same thing. Exept BZ threw a monkey wrench into the mix with Bind on Pickup. So, you REALLY do have to participate in that 8 to 10 hour long raid to get a chance to loot that epic BoP item. Which means raid after raid after raid etc...
So, only those with tons of time have their full set.
And, these are also the folks that scream the loudest (in my experience) against purchasing things with real money.
I think hamstringing yoru business model by excluding this path to revenue is stupid for any business running an MMORPG. Sony did the smart thing (buisiness wise) by enabling folks and allowing them to do what they would anyway while Sony got some profit from it.
oh well, that's my 2 cents worth