For people still confused what Ashes of Creation is

Nanfoodle

This video helps you see how all game systems tie into the PvX game that Ashes is. In 10 min it shows all the major features. Its worth the watch.

Scot

I don't usually watch videos for something lie this, but 10 mins is livable. It is looking good but only time will tell if there is a good MMO there.

Nanfoodle

Scot said:

I don't usually watch videos for something lie this, but 10 mins is livable. It is looking good but only time will tell if there is a good MMO there.

Im just tired of every thread moaning this game has PvP in the open world and going on about they hope they remove PvP but they dont get, that every system (almost all PvE) is tied into the PvP of the game. It really well designed as far as PvX not being just a FFA bash. There is rewards and meaning for PvPing that bleads into PvE. Much like DAoC. 

Scot

Nanfoodle said:

Scot said:

I don't usually watch videos for something lie this, but 10 mins is livable. It is looking good but only time will tell if there is a good MMO there.

Im just tired of every thread moaning this game has PvP in the open world and going on about they hope they remove PvP but they dont get, that every system (almost all PvE) is tied into the PvP of the game. It really well designed as far as PvX not being just a FFA bash. There is rewards and meaning for PvPing that bleads into PvE. Much like DAoC. 

But you know that's gonna happen right? As long as they don't do what NW did, listen to the PvE crowd and bolt on some more PvE and shove the game out the door.

Anyway is not the open world PvP by tagging? So there is choice there.

Nanfoodle

Scot said:

Nanfoodle said:

Scot said:

I don't usually watch videos for something lie this, but 10 mins is livable. It is looking good but only time will tell if there is a good MMO there.

Im just tired of every thread moaning this game has PvP in the open world and going on about they hope they remove PvP but they dont get, that every system (almost all PvE) is tied into the PvP of the game. It really well designed as far as PvX not being just a FFA bash. There is rewards and meaning for PvPing that bleads into PvE. Much like DAoC. 

But you know that's gonna happen right? As long as they don't do what NW did, listen to the PvE crowd and bolt on some more PvE and shove the game out the door.

Anyway is not the open world PvP by tagging? So there is choice there.

Your PvP flag is always on. That is this game. It uses the flagging system from Linage. So attacking someone who does not wish to PvP there is some heavy consequences for that attacker. 

Kyleran

Nanfoodle said:

Scot said:

I don't usually watch videos for something lie this, but 10 mins is livable. It is looking good but only time will tell if there is a good MMO there.

Im just tired of every thread moaning this game has PvP in the open world and going on about they hope they remove PvP but they dont get, that every system (almost all PvE) is tied into the PvP of the game. It really well designed as far as PvX not being just a FFA bash. There is rewards and meaning for PvPing that bleads into PvE. Much like DAoC. 

No, this game is much more like EVE than DAOC.

It clearly is a PVP focused game and those not interested in operating in such an environment really should not get their hopes up that there will be a place for them in this game.

Lots of great systems described in the stream but not sure alot of that is available for demonstration yet outside of the developer's carefully curated videos.

Let them get into Alpha 2 with no NDA and perhaps we will get a better idea how well the reality of Ashes matches up to their promised designs.

Gotta say, they sure are trying to convey the impression of a game some have been looking for, now we watch for their delivery of it all.

Cactus_LFRez

The thing I find most interesting is the class system.

It is like multiclassing but instead of just jamming 2 classes together, the second class "flavors" the first class, retaining the abilities of the first class but altering the effects.  If it works how I think it does that might be a really clever way to add variety to classes.

Iselin

The defining characteristic of DAoC PvP was not the interaction between PvP and PvE but rather its separation.

You could get bonuses that applied to both PvE and PvP by capturing and holding relics from the other 2 realms and that was pretty well it.

What made it attractive to PvErs who had no desire to PvP was the separation, not the interaction.

DAoC did have a couple of niche FFA servers with PvP everywhere but the ratio between regular and FFA servers was like 20:1 or more in its heyday.

Comparing Ashes, which is more of FFA PvP game, to DAoC is a stretch and not a useful comparison for anyone wanting to know what to expect.

Also... WTF is this streamer going on about "there are no participation trophies here?" That's an unnecessarily combative statement indicative of an elitist mindset, not to mention ignorant of the fact that even the most hardcore games have players in guilds who are mostly carried by their more competent guild mates, who get the full benefits of the guild accomplishments by just being part of the guild. So yes, even Ashes will have "participation trophies."

Wargfoot

Iselin said:

Also... WTF is this streamer going on about "there are no participation trophies here?" That's an unnecessarily combative statement indicative of an elitist mindset, not to mention ignorant of the fact that even the most hardcore games have players in guilds who are mostly carried by their more competent guild mates, who get the full benefits of the guild accomplishments by just being part of the guild. So yes, even Ashes will have "participation trophies."

Nice catch.
PvP with an elitist mindset, that should be a roaring success.

Wargfoot

^---- Sorry Kyleran, I forgot the /s.

Wargfoot

Rename the game: Tears of the Carebears.
That will go over well with the target demographic.

Nanfoodle

Kyleran said:

Nanfoodle said:

Scot said:

I don't usually watch videos for something lie this, but 10 mins is livable. It is looking good but only time will tell if there is a good MMO there.

Im just tired of every thread moaning this game has PvP in the open world and going on about they hope they remove PvP but they dont get, that every system (almost all PvE) is tied into the PvP of the game. It really well designed as far as PvX not being just a FFA bash. There is rewards and meaning for PvPing that bleads into PvE. Much like DAoC. 

No, this game is much more like EVE than DAOC.

It clearly is a PVP focused game and those not interested in operating in such an environment really should not get their hopes up that there will be a place for them in this game.

Lots of great systems described in the stream but not sure alot of that is available for demonstration yet outside of the developer's carefully curated videos.

Let them get into Alpha 2 with no NDA and perhaps we will get a better idea how well the reality of Ashes matches up to their promised designs.

Gotta say, they sure are trying to convey the impression of a game some have been looking for, now we watch for their delivery of it all.

I was only talking about PvP with meaning when I mentioned DAoC. As far as PvP in this game, its a Mix more of AC and Lineage. 

Wargfoot

I actually enjoy some PvP danger with two caveats:

1. There has to be a way for me to mitigate risk.  I've not seen a game do this well since UO.
2. The benefits of being a PK have to be balanced with risk.  I've never seen that done.

If AoC can do those two things I'll play.

Nanfoodle

Wargfoot said:

I actually enjoy some PvP danger with two caveats:

1. There has to be a way for me to mitigate risk.  I've not seen a game do this well since UO.
2. The benefits of being a PK have to be balanced with risk.  I've never seen that done.

If AoC can do those two things I'll play.

Lineage had this same flag system. It was rare to get ganked but when you did, it was relentless but still rare. The risk for the ganker gets balanced by the fact they lose allot of loot and exp. Exp loss gives you a debuff that makes it easier to get killed on top of being a PKer makes you drop gear. So you get ganked go back and kill the PKer and get back more from them, then they took from you.

There is also no way to get the times to go down on your PK timer but to be logged in and in an area that you can be killed. You do the crime, you face the risks. If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.    

Wargfoot

Nanfoodle said:

Wargfoot said:

I actually enjoy some PvP danger with two caveats:

1. There has to be a way for me to mitigate risk.  I've not seen a game do this well since UO.
2. The benefits of being a PK have to be balanced with risk.  I've never seen that done.

If AoC can do those two things I'll play.

Lineage had this same flag system. It was rare to get ganked but when you did, it was relentless but still rare. The risk for the ganker gets balanced by the fact they lose allot of loot and exp. Exp loss gives you a debuff that makes it easier to get killed on top of being a PKer makes you drop gear. So you get ganked go back and kill the PKer and get back more from them, then they took from you.

There is also no way to get the times to go down on your PK timer but to be logged in and in an area that you can be killed. You do the crime, you face the risks. If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.    

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

I'm skeptical that is enough and I say that based on experience.

1. "You do the time, you face the risks" sound ominous, but the "risk" is more PvP which is why people play PKs in the first place.  That is like telling a drug addict that his punishment for drug usage is an all expense paid trip to Amsterdam.
2. In UO any player at any time was subject to losing everything they were carrying and this did nothing to discourage PKs.
3. Not using the bank doesn't matter, they transfer items of value to clean characters.

One time in UO we set out to hunt PKs.

One track we tried was to follow PKs in ghost form so we could find out where they live.  That would be the first step in exacting revenge.  The PKs simply would gate to the maze, teleport over the hedge, and thereby trap the ghosts in the maze while they made off for home.  They were impossible to follow.

So we dialed back to placing a rune on ourselves marked "Home" with a key.  We'd run around until a PK killed us and looted the rune and the key.  The expectation was that the PK would use the rune and instead of being transferred to "Home" would be transferred to the actual location - the center of town - and be instantly murdered by the guards.  So after being murdered we ran to town and waited at the exact spot the rune would bring the PK.  Moments later a clean character teleported in... the rune had been transferred.

So pardon me while I lol at the anti-pk measures I've read so far.  A single band of PKs in UO would generate hundreds of help tickets in a single evening.  I hope AoC has something good in place....

Nanfoodle

Wargfoot said:

Nanfoodle said:

Wargfoot said:

I actually enjoy some PvP danger with two caveats:

1. There has to be a way for me to mitigate risk.  I've not seen a game do this well since UO.
2. The benefits of being a PK have to be balanced with risk.  I've never seen that done.

If AoC can do those two things I'll play.

Lineage had this same flag system. It was rare to get ganked but when you did, it was relentless but still rare. The risk for the ganker gets balanced by the fact they lose allot of loot and exp. Exp loss gives you a debuff that makes it easier to get killed on top of being a PKer makes you drop gear. So you get ganked go back and kill the PKer and get back more from them, then they took from you.

There is also no way to get the times to go down on your PK timer but to be logged in and in an area that you can be killed. You do the crime, you face the risks. If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.    

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

I'm skeptical that is enough and I say that based on experience.

1. "You do the time, you face the risks" sound ominous, but the "risk" is more PvP which is why people play PKs in the first place.  That is like telling a drug addict that his punishment for drug usage is an all expense paid trip to Amsterdam.
2. In UO any player at any time was subject to losing everything they were carrying and this did nothing to discourage PKs.
3. Not using the bank doesn't matter, they transfer items of value to clean characters.

One time in UO we set out to hunt PKs.

One track we tried was to follow PKs in ghost form so we could find out where they live.  That would be the first step in exacting revenge.  The PKs simply would gate to the maze, teleport over the hedge, and thereby trap the ghosts in the maze while they made off for home.  They were impossible to follow.

So we dialed back to placing a rune on ourselves marked "Home" with a key.  We'd run around until a PK killed us and looted the rune and the key.  The expectation was that the PK would use the rune and instead of being transferred to "Home" would be transferred to the actual location - the center of town - and be instantly murdered by the guards.  So after being murdered we ran to town and waited at the exact spot the rune would bring the PK.  Moments later a clean character teleported in... the rune had been transferred.

So pardon me while I lol at the anti-pk measures I've read so far.  A single band of PKs in UO would generate hundreds of help tickets in a single evening.  I hope AoC has something good in place....

No, there is 0 item transfer, so the PKer would need to be able to defend till his timer wore off, that will be most likely not possible. In Lineage that used this flagging system. The PKers would have some short term fun followed by allot of players picking on them.  

Also PKers just getting more PvP is not the point. Every time time kill someone who does not want to PvP that debuff will become so great, a 2 year old will be able to beat them up with a butterfly wing. It stacks. 

Scot

Wargfoot said:

I actually enjoy some PvP danger with two caveats:

1. There has to be a way for me to mitigate risk.  I've not seen a game do this well since UO.
2. The benefits of being a PK have to be balanced with risk.  I've never seen that done.

If AoC can do those two things I'll play.

AC had gems that were looted instead of you losing gear (they were not cheap mind you!), there are various ways to go about it.

Slapshot1188

Nanfoodle said:

 If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.    

Can you trade to an alt character who does your shopping for you?  Can you have an alt character "kill you" and loot your stuff?

Scot

Slapshot1188 said:

Nanfoodle said:

 If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.    

Can you trade to an alt character who does your shopping for you?  Can you have an alt character "kill you" and loot your stuff?

In a proper hardcore PvP MMO, the only way to transfer stuff to an alt is by letting it kill you.

Just say NO to care bears.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nanfoodle said:

 If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.    

Can you trade to an alt character who does your shopping for you?  Can you have an alt character "kill you" and loot your stuff?

In a proper hardcore PvP MMO, the only way to transfer stuff to an alt is by letting it kill you.

Just say NO to care bears.

Just saying that it's a typical work around in prior games that have tried the who "Red" flags cannot bank or use town.  They always make a "blue" alt for themselves or run with an unflagged person that does all the looting.

Wargfoot

Slapshot is hitting the mark here.

I use my "blue" to shop for everything the PK needs and allow the PK to kill my "blue" and loot.  Failing that, I discard items the PK needs onto the corpse of a monster.  Failing that, I get friended to the PK's house and drop loot into chests there.  Failing that, I place items the PK needs into a caravan and allow the PK to take the caravan - my guess is PKs can also drop items into a caravan's chests - thus facilitating loot transfer.

The problem the developers are facing (maybe they solved them already) is that the more complex the system become the more ways there are around it. 

It would be an epic undertaking.

cheyane

Players are extremely crafty they will find ways around it easily enough.

Scot

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Nanfoodle said:

 If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.    

Can you trade to an alt character who does your shopping for you?  Can you have an alt character "kill you" and loot your stuff?

In a proper hardcore PvP MMO, the only way to transfer stuff to an alt is by letting it kill you.

Just say NO to care bears.

Just saying that it's a typical work around in prior games that have tried the who "Red" flags cannot bank or use town.  They always make a "blue" alt for themselves or run with an unflagged person that does all the looting.

Oh I get you now, they may have account flagging or some such, but you know what, it would be interesting to see if they do. We have seen before that designers who make PvP MMOs sometimes seem to know little about PvP.

Wargfoot

Here, fix this:

1: PKs log out at a favorite noob hunting ground

2: Friendly blue ally groups with noobs until everyone is fat with loot.

3: Friendly blue also uses tracking to make sure the area is clear of bounty hunters.

4: Friendly blue let's PK buddies know it is time to log on and do the thing.

5: PKs log on, murder everyone, log out in under 5 minutes.

6: Posse arrives on scene about 15 minutes after the PKs log on with alts at a different location to do the same thing.

Slapshot1188

The only solution I have ever come up with was to have SERIOUS impacts for death.  Such as massive level loss or even permadeath.  But that will turn off 90 percent (or more) of any prospective players.  Anything else I have thought of or seen has many ways to skirt the guard rails or just ignore them.

I mean... in Mortal Online they even had a whole culture around "Blue Blocking" where PKs would roam around with an unflagged guildmate.  When the PKs would attack provoke someone, the blue guy would jump in front of any attack and thus flag the innocent target as a criminal.  They thought this was mighty fine strategy and it just became a thing to do.  RUle #1 of a PvP game is that th eplayers will distort and twist any rule or mechanic at every chance they get.

Wargfoot

Slapshot1188 said:

The only solution I have ever come up with was to have SERIOUS impacts for death.  Such as massive level loss or even permadeath.  But that will turn off 90 percent (or more) of any prospective players.  Anything else I have thought of or seen has many ways to skirt the guard rails or just ignore them.

I mean... in Mortal Online they even had a whole culture around "Blue Blocking" where PKs would roam around with an unflagged guildmate.  When the PKs would attack provoke someone, the blue guy would jump in front of any attack and thus flag the innocent target as a criminal.  They thought this was mighty fine strategy and it just became a thing to do.  RUle #1 of a PvP game is that th eplayers will distort and twist any rule or mechanic at every chance they get.

What an excellent example.

I hope people don't think we're bagging on AoC or its developers.
Rather, the task they have ahead of them is immense and they'll likely only get one shot at it.