I'm not convinced that any type of punishment or cost will deter PK's in a forced PvP game.
I'd rather see a system where there is a definite advantage to being in a PvP state. For example, in Ryzom all the best mats are in a PvP zone. Since everything is player made, if you want the best gear somebody is going to have to go into a PvP zone. Another mechanic is the outposts, where special mats drop only from outposts owned by guilds, and you have to have PvP fights to take over someone's outpost.
PoTBS had PvP zones that players could create around ports by assaulting the port. Once the PvP zone is created, any ships going in or out of that port are subject to full loot PvP. You didn't have to PvP if you didn't want to, but there was a definite advantage if you had industries/trading in that port. To get to your stuff you had to go through a PvP zone.
I did like DAOC's system where you got to decide to be in a PvP zone or not.
Forced PvP seems to always end up with PK's abusing the rules and ruining the game for noobies.
The only solution I have ever come up with was to have SERIOUS impacts for death. Such as massive level loss or even permadeath. But that will turn off 90 percent (or more) of any prospective players. Anything else I have thought of or seen has many ways to skirt the guard rails or just ignore them.
I mean... in Mortal Online they even had a whole culture around "Blue Blocking" where PKs would roam around with an unflagged guildmate. When the PKs would attack provoke someone, the blue guy would jump in front of any attack and thus flag the innocent target as a criminal. They thought this was mighty fine strategy and it just became a thing to do. RUle #1 of a PvP game is that th eplayers will distort and twist any rule or mechanic at every chance they get.
What an excellent example.
I hope people don't think we're bagging on AoC or its developers. Rather, the task they have ahead of them is immense and they'll likely only get one shot at it.
EVE has similar scenarios. Suicide gankers waiting outside the gates of major trade hubs would have blue alts scan incoming haulers for Big loot.
Once identified the gankers would kill the target, the npc police would blow up the attacker immediately..but what of the dropped loot? A blue hauler alt would scoop it up and fly away...
Those killed couldn't even track down who picked up the loot or if they did were they part of the plan, or just opportunist players who just happened to be passing by?
My worst loss was 3.5B ISK of mined ore plus a 1/2 billion ISK hauler representing several weekends of my efforts vs the gankers who lost a pair of 180K sh!tfit Tornados
To add insult to injury the Killboards were reporting it as 5B ISK of loss, had bad guys looking out for my incomimg ships for weeks afterwards....."oh look guys, here comes the rich dumbass again"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The only solution I have ever come up with was to have SERIOUS impacts for death. Such as massive level loss or even permadeath. But that will turn off 90 percent (or more) of any prospective players. Anything else I have thought of or seen has many ways to skirt the guard rails or just ignore them.
I mean... in Mortal Online they even had a whole culture around "Blue Blocking" where PKs would roam around with an unflagged guildmate. When the PKs would attack provoke someone, the blue guy would jump in front of any attack and thus flag the innocent target as a criminal. They thought this was mighty fine strategy and it just became a thing to do. RUle #1 of a PvP game is that th eplayers will distort and twist any rule or mechanic at every chance they get.
What an excellent example.
I hope people don't think we're bagging on AoC or its developers. Rather, the task they have ahead of them is immense and they'll likely only get one shot at it.
EVE has similar scenarios. Suicide gankers waiting outside the gates of major trade hubs would have blue alts scan incoming haulers for Big loot.
Once identified the gankers would kill the target, the npc police would blow up the attacker immediately..but what of the dropped loot? A blue hauler alt would scoop it up and fly away...
Those killed couldn't even track down who picked up the loot or if they did were they part of the plan, or just opportunist players who just happened to be passing by?
My worst loss was 3.5B ISK of mined ore plus a 1/2 billion ISK hauler representing several weekends of my efforts vs the gankers who lost a pair of 180K sh!tfit Tornados
To add insult to injury the Killboards were reporting it as 5B ISK of loss, had bad guys looking out for my incomimg ships for weeks afterwards....."oh look guys, here comes the rich dumbass again"
In PoTBS one time we cornered a medium ship and started attacking it. It became obvious that he was going to lose his ship and everything on it. He told us he was a Chinese game worker with a full load of ship deeds, and if we sunk him and took all his deeds he would get fired.
We actually let him go after taking a few of the deeds.
My worst experience was the classic: a PK'er parked by the respawn site, so once you got killed you'd respawn, and then he'd kill you immediately causing you to respawn and he'd kill you immediately. I quit that game.
Almost always boils down, to either the dev's spend so much time "fixing" the rules that govern PVP each patch, that they can't do anything else until they give up, and PVE players get sick of it.
Or, they just make the game full on pvp and say screw the rules, those are for the weak.
People in the West rarely seem to want to have the games try to be both Pve and Pvp together. People want to have down time when they can not be bothered. Hard to accomplish with any type of open Pvp games, rules or not.
Hard to say though, I mean, how many Dev's have claimed that THEIR games and rules will make it work? Seen lot's of promises, but how many have came to fruition?
Some folks just got to try to do things the hard way I guess
If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.
Can you trade to an alt character who does your shopping for you? Can you have an alt character "kill you" and loot your stuff?
In a proper hardcore PvP MMO, the only way to transfer stuff to an alt is by letting it kill you.
Just say NO to care bears.
In a properly hardcore MMO of any kind the only way to transfer stuff is to drop it on the ground and the other person has to pick it up. If you want an alt to get it you either have to trust someone or hide someplace where you can log out/in safely and quickly.
The danger is that anyone can pick up your stuff, including your drops.
Drop all gear and inventory on death.
Have slimes that travel the world and pickup stuff people drop. That starts a timer that will consume the item if you don't find and kill the slime in time.
edit:
You can have a blue alt in the game, but that doesn't make the transfer safer.
Flagging in a karma based system would only mean intent. You can still kill someone and get the negative karma, but they would take the XP loss regardless. If they choose to fightback after being hit they would autoflag back to pvp and no one would take a karma hit on death.
The only solution I have ever come up with was to have SERIOUS impacts for death. Such as massive level loss or even permadeath. But that will turn off 90 percent (or more) of any prospective players. Anything else I have thought of or seen has many ways to skirt the guard rails or just ignore them.
I mean... in Mortal Online they even had a whole culture around "Blue Blocking" where PKs would roam around with an unflagged guildmate. When the PKs would attack provoke someone, the blue guy would jump in front of any attack and thus flag the innocent target as a criminal. They thought this was mighty fine strategy and it just became a thing to do. RUle #1 of a PvP game is that th eplayers will distort and twist any rule or mechanic at every chance they get.
What an excellent example.
I hope people don't think we're bagging on AoC or its developers. Rather, the task they have ahead of them is immense and they'll likely only get one shot at it.
Take D4, the studio now has a huge reputation hit to get over, but new studios do not have the leeway of Blizzard; if AoC is still not right a couple of months down the line from launch that could be curtains.
I get the PK concerns. What to get, the dev team wants to stop every way they can, to stop the PKer from transferring their booty and avoid the consequences. Most likely any loop hole we can think of, Ashes team will adjust. The whole system is set up to punish negitve game play, while not removing the risk. It's not a hard thing to figure out.
I think a PK should be able to transfer loot to a neutral character. That kind of thing happens in the real world all of the time. I'm anti-PK, but if you put so much negative into the mix nobody would want to play a PK then why support the playstyle at all?
In LOTRO it sucks to have 6 wargs jump you and burn you down before you get out of stun; however, too many times they'd balance things out where the risk was too great. I quit soon after experiencing a single warden killing like 6 wargs solo. The warden ended the fight with nearly full health.
Ten minutes later Wardens are crying on the forums about no creeps come out to play anymore. Isn't hard to do the math on that.
So all this artificial restrictions on loot and stuff just kind of kills it for me. How do you explain in the lore that a PK cannot transfer a helmet to a neutral guild mate?
The phrase "risk vs. reward" is not so easy, especially since for many people the words "risk and reward" mean totally different things. So far this has been a discussion about loot, which really misses about 90% of the reason why PKs do what they do.
Let me muddy the waters on the whole "risk vs. reward" thing.
Some PK groups are highly organized, numerous, and well-funded. So, if me and 10 friends learn how to fight as a cohesive team and we use planning, scouting, and spies to pick our targets, shouldn't we be able to roll unprepared solo players all weekend long?
Going back to my LOTRO example: Why shouldn't a group of six Wargs be able to face roll a lone Warden? Dude went out behind enemy lines alone for god's sake - I took the time to form a group and we worked as a team and still, no success... I quit.
Again, a single group of PKs could generate 100s of support tickets in a single evening. Imagine what 10 groups of PKs could get done?
How do you balance risk vs. reward against a highly organized PK group that uses neutral scouts, picks targets carefully, face rolls the board and is out in minutes? How do you do that without being so punitive they won't even want to play?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I suck at PvP and that is why I avoid it at all costs even when I play games that have PvP. After a particularly revealing discussion on these forums it was revealed I actually cannot handle loss all that well and more so at the hands of another player. So if this game does not give me enough safeguards from being continuously camped I am not going to touch it.
If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.
Can you trade to an alt character who does your shopping for you? Can you have an alt character "kill you" and loot your stuff?
In a proper hardcore PvP MMO, the only way to transfer stuff to an alt is by letting it kill you.
Just say NO to care bears.
In a properly hardcore MMO of any kind the only way to transfer stuff is to drop it on the ground and the other person has to pick it up. If you want an alt to get it you either have to trust someone or hide someplace where you can log out/in safely and quickly.
The danger is that anyone can pick up your stuff, including your drops.
Drop all gear and inventory on death.
Have slimes that travel the world and pickup stuff people drop. That starts a timer that will consume the item if you don't find and kill the slime in time.
edit:
You can have a blue alt in the game, but that doesn't make the transfer safer.
Flagging in a karma based system would only mean intent. You can still kill someone and get the negative karma, but they would take the XP loss regardless. If they choose to fightback after being hit they would autoflag back to pvp and no one would take a karma hit on death.
My first experience of this was in Asheron's Call. You had to find a safe place to swap the gear but no place was really safe. Once I came back to find someone standing near where my body was "tough luck" he said when I DM'd him. But I saw his guilds name, I contacted their leader, who turned out to be his dad. He was online and he came back with his son to give me my stuff back! You can imagine the the lecture that poor kid must have got.
All you have mentioned and more is why I prefer inner core safe for PvP zones and outer PvP ones like DAOC.
If I remember right, till your PK timer comes off, you cant use bankers, vendors, item chests or any other means of unloading your goods.
Can you trade to an alt character who does your shopping for you? Can you have an alt character "kill you" and loot your stuff?
In a proper hardcore PvP MMO, the only way to transfer stuff to an alt is by letting it kill you.
Just say NO to care bears.
In a properly hardcore MMO of any kind the only way to transfer stuff is to drop it on the ground and the other person has to pick it up. If you want an alt to get it you either have to trust someone or hide someplace where you can log out/in safely and quickly.
The danger is that anyone can pick up your stuff, including your drops.
Drop all gear and inventory on death.
Have slimes that travel the world and pickup stuff people drop. That starts a timer that will consume the item if you don't find and kill the slime in time.
edit:
You can have a blue alt in the game, but that doesn't make the transfer safer.
Flagging in a karma based system would only mean intent. You can still kill someone and get the negative karma, but they would take the XP loss regardless. If they choose to fightback after being hit they would autoflag back to pvp and no one would take a karma hit on death.
My first experience of this was in Asheron's Call. You had to find a safe place to swap the gear but no place was really safe. Once I came back to find someone standing near where my body was "tough luck" he said when I DM'd him. But I saw his guilds name, I contacted their leader, who turned out to be his dad. He was online and he came back with his son to give me my stuff back! You can imagine the the lecture that poor kid must have got.
All you have mentioned and more is why I prefer inner core safe for PvP zones and outer PvP ones like DAOC.
Today they would come to "give you your stuff back" but kill you together and loot you again.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What makes this tricky is balancing it from the PKs perspective too. The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
That's an important point. Developers don't put in pvp only to then fret about having it. They wouldn't put it in the game in the first place if the game wasn't supposed to be played that way.
The problem is this whole ridiculous "forced pvp" mindset. There is no forced pvp. Only games that have pvp and games that don't. Might as well just say "forced game play."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What makes this tricky is balancing it from the PKs perspective too. The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
That's an important point. Developers don't put in pvp only to then fret about having it. They wouldn't put it in the game in the first place if the game wasn't supposed to be played that way.
The problem is this whole ridiculous "forced pvp" mindset. There is no forced pvp. Only games that have pvp and games that don't. Might as well just say "forced game play."
Exactly.
Back in the day for a crafter to enjoy end game content he had to put up with a bunch of PvP nonsense that was just the grind one had to endure to get to the good bits. Likewise, the PvP crowd had to put up with crafting/leveling grind to get to the fun bits as well.
But now with so much variety (1000s of options) you can simply load up a game that gets you to the part you love right out of the gate without needing to endure other people's preferred style of play.
It looks like AoC is trying to mash together two communities that are happier apart. Sure, if they were the only game in town those two communities would endure each other, but in today's market they don't need to ever see each other again.
What makes this tricky is balancing it from the PKs perspective too. The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
That's an important point. Developers don't put in pvp only to then fret about having it. They wouldn't put it in the game in the first place if the game wasn't supposed to be played that way.
The problem is this whole ridiculous "forced pvp" mindset. There is no forced pvp. Only games that have pvp and games that don't. Might as well just say "forced game play."
Forced PvP is very easy to understand. It's a game where you have no choice. There are some games like that.
There are also many more games that give the player a choice, they can do PvP if they want to, and don't have to if they don't want to. These tend to be much more popular.
DAOC is commonly held up as one of the most popular and well-done PvP games, but it isn't forced on players. You can easily play the whole time without PvP at all. So there are three kinds of games, forced PvP, PvE only, and a hybrid of both PvP and PvE.
What makes this tricky is balancing it from the PKs perspective too. The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
That's an important point. Developers don't put in pvp only to then fret about having it. They wouldn't put it in the game in the first place if the game wasn't supposed to be played that way.
The problem is this whole ridiculous "forced pvp" mindset. There is no forced pvp. Only games that have pvp and games that don't. Might as well just say "forced game play."
Forced PvP is very easy to understand. It's a game where you have no choice. There are some games like that.
There are also many more games that give the player a choice, they can do PvP if they want to, and don't have to if they don't want to. These tend to be much more popular.
DAOC is commonly held up as one of the most popular and well-done PvP games, but it isn't forced on players. You can easily play the whole time without PvP at all. So there are three kinds of games, forced PvP, PvE only, and a hybrid of both PvP and PvE.
If it is a PvP game there is no reason to use the word "forced".
The term "forced" has been used by the anti-PK crowd to describe unwelcome PvP encounters - it is an attempt to play the role of a victim. In fact, some people have gone so far as to liken it to rape, which is just unacceptable.
There is no "forced" PvP in video games in that sense.
Just turn the game off and it is gone - or apply this standard equally and say that Minecraft has "forced" crafting.
What makes this tricky is balancing it from the PKs perspective too. The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
That's an important point. Developers don't put in pvp only to then fret about having it. They wouldn't put it in the game in the first place if the game wasn't supposed to be played that way.
The problem is this whole ridiculous "forced pvp" mindset. There is no forced pvp. Only games that have pvp and games that don't. Might as well just say "forced game play."
Forced PvP is very easy to understand. It's a game where you have no choice. There are some games like that.
There are also many more games that give the player a choice, they can do PvP if they want to, and don't have to if they don't want to. These tend to be much more popular.
DAOC is commonly held up as one of the most popular and well-done PvP games, but it isn't forced on players. You can easily play the whole time without PvP at all. So there are three kinds of games, forced PvP, PvE only, and a hybrid of both PvP and PvE.
If it is a PvP game there is no reason to use the word "forced".
The term "forced" has been used by the anti-PK crowd to describe unwelcome PvP encounters - it is an attempt to play the role of a victim. In fact, some people have gone so far as to liken it to rape, which is just unacceptable.
There is no "forced" PvP in video games in that sense.
Just turn the game off and it is gone - or apply this standard equally and say that Minecraft has "forced" crafting.
Victim: "Minecraft has forced crafting...."
Developer: "Uh, that is the game"
Victim: "Why are you abusing me?"
Based on that reasoning, DAOC is not a PvP game, right? It just happens to have a lot of players who enjoy PvP and it has been celebrated as one of the best PvP games.
Perhaps it is just semantics. In your defintion, a PvP game means open PvP that people must participate in. If that is the case, then the word "forced" doesn't need to be used.
How would you describe DAOC then? It's not a PvP game, but it has really good PvP?
What makes this tricky is balancing it from the PKs perspective too. The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
That's an important point. Developers don't put in pvp only to then fret about having it. They wouldn't put it in the game in the first place if the game wasn't supposed to be played that way.
The problem is this whole ridiculous "forced pvp" mindset. There is no forced pvp. Only games that have pvp and games that don't. Might as well just say "forced game play."
Forced PvP is very easy to understand. It's a game where you have no choice. There are some games like that.
There are also many more games that give the player a choice, they can do PvP if they want to, and don't have to if they don't want to. These tend to be much more popular.
DAOC is commonly held up as one of the most popular and well-done PvP games, but it isn't forced on players. You can easily play the whole time without PvP at all. So there are three kinds of games, forced PvP, PvE only, and a hybrid of both PvP and PvE.
If it is a PvP game there is no reason to use the word "forced".
The term "forced" has been used by the anti-PK crowd to describe unwelcome PvP encounters - it is an attempt to play the role of a victim. In fact, some people have gone so far as to liken it to rape, which is just unacceptable.
There is no "forced" PvP in video games in that sense.
Just turn the game off and it is gone - or apply this standard equally and say that Minecraft has "forced" crafting.
Victim: "Minecraft has forced crafting...."
Developer: "Uh, that is the game"
Victim: "Why are you abusing me?"
Based on that reasoning, DAOC is not a PvP game, right? It just happens to have a lot of players who enjoy PvP and it has been celebrated as one of the best PvP games.
Perhaps it is just semantics. In your defintion, a PvP game means open PvP that people must participate in. If that is the case, then the word "forced" doesn't need to be used.
How would you describe DAOC then? It's not a PvP game, but it has really good PvP?
Why wouldn't DAOC be described as forced PvE? I doubt you're using forced as a pejorative, but it gets used like that all of the time.
I'd describe DAOC as having an optional PvP endgame content.
What makes this tricky is balancing it from the PKs perspective too. The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
That's an important point. Developers don't put in pvp only to then fret about having it. They wouldn't put it in the game in the first place if the game wasn't supposed to be played that way.
The problem is this whole ridiculous "forced pvp" mindset. There is no forced pvp. Only games that have pvp and games that don't. Might as well just say "forced game play."
Forced PvP is very easy to understand. It's a game where you have no choice. There are some games like that.
There are also many more games that give the player a choice, they can do PvP if they want to, and don't have to if they don't want to. These tend to be much more popular.
DAOC is commonly held up as one of the most popular and well-done PvP games, but it isn't forced on players. You can easily play the whole time without PvP at all. So there are three kinds of games, forced PvP, PvE only, and a hybrid of both PvP and PvE.
If it is a PvP game there is no reason to use the word "forced".
The term "forced" has been used by the anti-PK crowd to describe unwelcome PvP encounters - it is an attempt to play the role of a victim. In fact, some people have gone so far as to liken it to rape, which is just unacceptable.
There is no "forced" PvP in video games in that sense.
Just turn the game off and it is gone - or apply this standard equally and say that Minecraft has "forced" crafting.
Victim: "Minecraft has forced crafting...."
Developer: "Uh, that is the game"
Victim: "Why are you abusing me?"
Based on that reasoning, DAOC is not a PvP game, right? It just happens to have a lot of players who enjoy PvP and it has been celebrated as one of the best PvP games.
Perhaps it is just semantics. In your defintion, a PvP game means open PvP that people must participate in. If that is the case, then the word "forced" doesn't need to be used.
How would you describe DAOC then? It's not a PvP game, but it has really good PvP?
I'd describe DAOC as having an optional PvP endgame.
I'd accept a definition of a PvP game where the PvP is obligatory, or, er, forced
As long as other games can also have PvP. I guess we should call those "optional PvP" games to differentiate them from the "obligatory PvP" games.
Ashes of Creation then is not an optional PvP game, but an obligatory PvP game.
I've had a lot of fun playing PvP, in ESO, DAOC, PoTBS, and Ryzom. None of those are obligatory PvP games. I don't like obligatory PvP games, but I do like PvP.
Comments
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Once identified the gankers would kill the target, the npc police would blow up the attacker immediately..but what of the dropped loot? A blue hauler alt would scoop it up and fly away...
Those killed couldn't even track down who picked up the loot or if they did were they part of the plan, or just opportunist players who just happened to be passing by?
My worst loss was 3.5B ISK of mined ore plus a 1/2 billion ISK hauler representing several weekends of my efforts vs the gankers who lost a pair of 180K sh!tfit Tornados
To add insult to injury the Killboards were reporting it as 5B ISK of loss, had bad guys looking out for my incomimg ships for weeks afterwards....."oh look guys, here comes the rich dumbass again"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Almost always boils down, to either the dev's spend so much time "fixing" the rules that govern PVP each patch, that they can't do anything else until they give up, and PVE players get sick of it.
Or, they just make the game full on pvp and say screw the rules, those are for the weak.
People in the West rarely seem to want to have the games try to be both Pve and Pvp together. People want to have down time when they can not be bothered. Hard to accomplish with any type of open Pvp games, rules or not.
Hard to say though, I mean, how many Dev's have claimed that THEIR games and rules will make it work? Seen lot's of promises, but how many have came to fruition?
Some folks just got to try to do things the hard way I guess
The PKs should be able to have fun, if not, why would they play?
Right now in most insances... RISK is very miniscule or has ways to mitigate.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not releasing anytime soon.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Here is the thing:
I think a PK should be able to transfer loot to a neutral character. That kind of thing happens in the real world all of the time. I'm anti-PK, but if you put so much negative into the mix nobody would want to play a PK then why support the playstyle at all?
In LOTRO it sucks to have 6 wargs jump you and burn you down before you get out of stun; however, too many times they'd balance things out where the risk was too great. I quit soon after experiencing a single warden killing like 6 wargs solo. The warden ended the fight with nearly full health.
Ten minutes later Wardens are crying on the forums about no creeps come out to play anymore. Isn't hard to do the math on that.
So all this artificial restrictions on loot and stuff just kind of kills it for me.
How do you explain in the lore that a PK cannot transfer a helmet to a neutral guild mate?
The phrase "risk vs. reward" is not so easy, especially since for many people the words "risk and reward" mean totally different things. So far this has been a discussion about loot, which really misses about 90% of the reason why PKs do what they do.
Some PK groups are highly organized, numerous, and well-funded. So, if me and 10 friends learn how to fight as a cohesive team and we use planning, scouting, and spies to pick our targets, shouldn't we be able to roll unprepared solo players all weekend long?
Going back to my LOTRO example: Why shouldn't a group of six Wargs be able to face roll a lone Warden? Dude went out behind enemy lines alone for god's sake - I took the time to form a group and we worked as a team and still, no success... I quit.
Again, a single group of PKs could generate 100s of support tickets in a single evening. Imagine what 10 groups of PKs could get done?
How do you balance risk vs. reward against a highly organized PK group that uses neutral scouts, picks targets carefully, face rolls the board and is out in minutes? How do you do that without being so punitive they won't even want to play?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All you have mentioned and more is why I prefer inner core safe for PvP zones and outer PvP ones like DAOC.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Back in the day for a crafter to enjoy end game content he had to put up with a bunch of PvP nonsense that was just the grind one had to endure to get to the good bits. Likewise, the PvP crowd had to put up with crafting/leveling grind to get to the fun bits as well.
But now with so much variety (1000s of options) you can simply load up a game that gets you to the part you love right out of the gate without needing to endure other people's preferred style of play.
It looks like AoC is trying to mash together two communities that are happier apart. Sure, if they were the only game in town those two communities would endure each other, but in today's market they don't need to ever see each other again.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
The term "forced" has been used by the anti-PK crowd to describe unwelcome PvP encounters - it is an attempt to play the role of a victim. In fact, some people have gone so far as to liken it to rape, which is just unacceptable.
There is no "forced" PvP in video games in that sense.
Just turn the game off and it is gone - or apply this standard equally and say that Minecraft has "forced" crafting.
Victim: "Minecraft has forced crafting...."
Developer: "Uh, that is the game"
Victim: "Why are you abusing me?"
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Why wouldn't DAOC be described as forced PvE?
I doubt you're using forced as a pejorative, but it gets used like that all of the time.
I'd describe DAOC as having an optional PvP endgame content.
optional:
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.