Thing is, you say only a fool would pay for release or whatever, well 50 or 60 bucks isn't a lot to me. If I see this game in stores I'm gonna buy it no matter what. Losing 60 bucks might be a big deal to someone else, and while I'm not rich, that is really nothing to me.
Hell I bought an Atari Jaguar and enjoyed the heck out of AvP, most people would say I'm crazy for buying it to which I say: No man, I'm a gamer. Here's to hoping they haven't run out of money and that the game rocks on launch. I for one am glad when a company doesn't release so much info before release.
I wish it was like the old days where you heard a game was coming out, months passed, and it came out and THEN you judged it. Nowadays you have a bunch of 12teen year old gamer enthusiasts killing games with their trolling ways before the damn thing has a chance to come out. The internet is the devil, ya heard?
Originally posted by anarchyart Actually darq mon frere, if you will read my post again I didn't point any fingers, I merely asked a question which still hasn't been answered which I am genuinely interested in. I actually did check the site and it said November, which is why if you will read my post again I never doubted the November release date. Release dates commonly get pushed back in this industry as I am POSITIVE you know, which is the reason for the undertone of sarcasm. Be nice if you read my post all the way through also before getting in too much of a huff.
So Jackdog do you think that 2 full months isn't enough time to finish this game for a November release?
Darq mon frere? I guess I deserved that one for the 'MMORPG Avenger' remark, heh.
So clear something up for me then..are you saying that you believe the devs will push back the game again in November (regardless of what they are saying now), or do you think they will indeed release in November, but it will somehow be magically complete? Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing where you are coming from. On one hand you say you never doubted the November release, but you then say that you wouldn't doubt it being pushed back again.
Personally, I would hope that they take all the time needed, but the devs have got this 'now or never' mentality going on right now that makes the prospect seem unlikely.
Originally posted by darquenblade Darq mon frere? I guess I deserved that one for the 'MMORPG Avenger' remark, heh. So clear something up for me then..are you saying that you believe the devs will push back the game again in November (regardless of what they are saying now), or do you think they will indeed release in November, but it will somehow be magically complete? Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing where you are coming from. On one hand you say you never doubted the November release, but you then say that you wouldn't doubt it being pushed back again. Personally, I would hope that they take all the time needed, but the devs have got this 'now or never' mentality going on right now that makes the prospect seem unlikely.
HEHE well what I meant was, I saw the official release date so I wasn't doubting Jackdogs release date as it seemed official. However, would it suprise me to see the release date for ANY game pushed back? Hell no. I have been around far too long for that.
It sort of started for me with the Colecovision expansion module. If you were old enough to remember, they had advertisements in magazines and everything, showing the smart cards the games would be on (credit card sized cartridges). The expansion module was to increase the Colecovisions memory and we would finally be playing true arcade quality games at home!
Yadda yadda yadda, it got pushed back past the christmas it was supposed to be released, and much to my chagrin, it never actually came out.
It's amazing I have kept my cynicism at bay all these years enough to still love video games in general. I think this has to do with the fact that I never burned myself out on them. Now, I've had my till 5am sessions on Everquest, but those were a real rarity. I now play about 2 hours a night, and on my day off when the gf is out I get to play for about 4 or 5. But I still have been burned too many times to believe ANY release date, period.
Originally posted by anarchyart Thing is, you say only a fool would pay for release or whatever, well 50 or 60 bucks isn't a lot to me. If I see this game in stores I'm gonna buy it no matter what. Losing 60 bucks might be a big deal to someone else, and while I'm not rich, that is really nothing to me.
Hey it's youer money. I am just saying that if the game is good it will still be there after release and a week or two won't be a drop in the bucket . I am takingthe wait and see position, you do what you want as long as you are not putting it on my charge card LOL
For me it has nothing to do with 50 or 60 bucks being a lot of money. Its not much at all. Its the point of rewarding devs for not doing a good job. Its getting to the point were there will be no beta testing anymore. Go straight from alpha to a pay to play system.
I don't blame the devs either because they feel they can get money from people so why not. My hat is off to the D&L team if they make a killing releasing a game with most of its core features left out.
EQII - Nice try...but not quite there. 8 character names with no spaces? wth? Gameplay is fair. Graphics are ok...but very beefy to those with middle of the road machines. (tested with low, mid and high range PCs).
WoW - *buzzer* not even gonna waste my time with this one.
Asheron's Call - Not too much for graphics, but the gameplay and community were way ahead of its time. Played this for 5 years and still have not found its equal.
Asheron's Call 2 - This one is some serious eye candy. The PvP and Kingdom vs Kingdom play is unmatched. They have managed to give respectable balance between solo and group gameplay. The community here is very tight and was always fun. Granted AC2 had some major problems at original launch, but the dev team has done amazing work. So far I haven't found a newer MMO that can touch it yet. It's a shame people didn't give this one a chance...now it is on its deathbed.
D&D Online - This one has some promise...but with Turbine's HORRIBLE mismanagement of AC2...I doubt I'm gonna waste my time on it. This one like WoW will be a game for the fanatics. I want something original.
DnL - I forsee this one will follow the same path as AC2....but it's future is not yet set in stone. Give this one some time and it will blossom. I'm very interested to get my hands on this one.
Originally posted by mrwarp Well here's my take on it.... EQII - Nice try...but not quite there. 8 character names with no spaces? wth? Gameplay is fair. Graphics are ok...but very beefy to those with middle of the road machines. (tested with low, mid and high range PCs). WoW - *buzzer* not even gonna waste my time with this one. Asheron's Call - Not too much for graphics, but the gameplay and community were way ahead of its time. Played this for 5 years and still have not found its equal. Asheron's Call 2 - This one is some serious eye candy. The PvP and Kingdom vs Kingdom play is unmatched. They have managed to give respectable balance between solo and group gameplay. The community here is very tight and was always fun. Granted AC2 had some major problems at original launch, but the dev team has done amazing work. So far I haven't found a newer MMO that can touch it yet. It's a shame people didn't give this one a chance...now it is on its deathbed. D&D Online - This one has some promise...but with Turbine's HORRIBLE mismanagement of AC2...I doubt I'm gonna waste my time on it. This one like WoW will be a game for the fanatics. I want something original. DnL - I forsee this one will follow the same path as AC2....but it's future is not yet set in stone. Give this one some time and it will blossom. I'm very interested to get my hands on this one.
Uh-oh - the AC2 fanbois have gotten loose!
Umm - AC2 PvP was terribly unbalanced - the devs pretty much admitted as much and gave up on it. The KvK gameplay was unmatched insomuch as no other game mechanism in any game caused as much apathy amongst it's players. AC2 closed for a reason - no one played it because most people found it terribly boring. While the game did improve drastically from launch - it never really developed into anything compelling...
Before we get too off topic - i think that it is pretty clear that there are a lot of people very concerned about the game releasing without a beta, or releasing as a pay to play beta a la mourning. If they are out of money and the November sorta-release is a financial necessity, than this game is in big trouble.
I agree with Brig - it is more about rewarding devs who cut corners and release unfinished games after enticing us with awesome concepts for years. They must be stopped!
Originally posted by darquenblade Originally posted by Jadal /yawn You bore me now. Actually, it's not that he bores you, it's that you really can't think of any decent counterpoint to what he is saying, so you're attempting to act pompuous. Jackdog is not flaming here; his view on what may very well happen to this game is on line with what many people looking in from the outside think. It doesn't matter if no one has ever attempted what DnL is attempting--releasing an unfinished game is still releasing an unfinished game. And if they actually intend to do this come November, they will undoubtably create a small playerbase consisting of the truly hardcore (as every game, no matter how buggy or unfinished, always has), but DnL will never become a success; it will simply be another AC2, MxO, Shadowbane, etc.
Both Jackdog and darquenblade are right on the money with D&L. I was absolutely horrified when I found out that the game was being released - come what may - in Nov 05, if even to a limited community. Asking people to PAY (I don't care how little or how much) to work on the development of a game is NOT a good sign and does not fill me with confidence about the viability and health of the game or indeed the financial health of the developers.
I became interested in MMOGs again at the start of the year initially through reading up on D&L. 9 months on - 2 from what was the 'official' release date and this crap is pulled. Take off those rose-coloured spectacles and LOOK at the evidence (graveyard) of rushed, under-developed MMOGs. We care just as much as you, which is why Jackdog & others are expressing their reservations because it is absolutely idiotic to follow in the footsteps of MMOGs that have fallen over a cliff.
Regards, Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
As I said in the other thread the only game I would really compare it to is Mourning for the reason I mentioned there. I get a really bad feeling when the developers more or less admit that the game is a pile before they even release it and appeal to the fanboys to help them build their game. I might DL it if it's free but I don't pay top beta a game.
DnL is [b]not[/b] Mourning.
Mourning is simply a badly designed game, with arses as community managers/devs. They showed the same screenshots forever, and didn't release anything else, and their 'betatest' was so bad that most beta-players stopped playing it almost immediately after they got in. At least, that's what i heard.
DnL is a large game with several professional companies backing it up, with licensed technology (DnL's landscape engine hasn't been developed in-house), a large community, friendly devs (although a bit communicatively shy - but who wants 200,000 people nagging at their heads for this or that feature?), and above all, lots of actual game footage (as several E3 shows and lots of videos/screenshots show).
So, to get this straight, DnL has been pulled into this discussion quite involuntarily bu a Mourning dev, in an attempt to drag DnL even below the elvel of his own game. So, please, people, stop comparing DnL to Mourning, the later game has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Some say that this payed beta will f*** up, but frankly,i don't see how that's possible. The content for DnL needs a LOT of developing, and the devs will run out of money long before they 'complete' the game. An mmorpg is never complete - and promised features will find their way in eventually. I'm taking EVE as the most prime example here - it was also released, half-beta - but right now it has more than 3 times the original content added, completely free expansions (well, except the monthly costs :P) and even some extra's. I expect the same to happen with DnL, to keep players interested. Continuing to add content is a good thing, not a bad thing, like most people think ("they should finish the game before releasing it!!!!" -> VERY stupid people imho.).
This is about MMORPG's, not shooters. They are never 'complete'. If they were, people would stop playing as soon as they found everything and did everything.
In other words: I suspect DnL to have a few troubles at release, but nothing major. Most of it will revolve around server stability and balancing, with content being developed in the background. In the meantime, players can start developing Ganareth's political borders and economy, which can be a healthy base for getting more players into the game at the shelf release.
Me, personally, i can't wait till i can simply walk about and explore.......
Originally posted by ChromeBallz like most people think ("they should finish the game before releasing it!!!!" -> VERY stupid people imho.). This is about MMORPG's, not shooters. They are never 'complete'.
Yes, god forbid a game should release and be playable. Im definatly with you, theres nothign better than paying for a half finished product. I think tommorow ill go for lunch and order a hamdburger, politely telling them they can keep the other half as I dont really need it.
Sure, MMORPGs are 'never complete', that doesnt mean they cant have decent content and systems at launch. The only news I ever hear about this game is how nice their weather system is, or how big the world will be and how many transport systems there are. Guess what? I dont care about that! I play games to play them, not wander around admiring graphics. I like exploring more than the average person, but you can only look at the same things so many times before you start to wonder why youre just running around aimlessly.
MMORPGs are great because they let a large number of people play together by doing quests, fighting epic monsters and creating conflict. Well, DnL has the 'ideas' down, but I have yet to see a good example of them shown off in the game. The few times (very few) theyve shown combat, its been some very static and very repetaive animations. Some of the spells look good, but theyve onyl really shown off a few and every one whos a mage seems to be using the same spells.
They better get their act together in the few months and put some of those great ideas into this game soon, or its going to fail bigtime.
Im not trying to be negative, ive been following this game for over a year now, its just the progress on this game has been barely noticeable, aside from a few new ugly player races and the new bionatics (which look very nice). Lets see some gameplay! No more hangliding and sledging!
Originally posted by ChromeBallz like most people think ("they should finish the game before releasing it!!!!" -> VERY stupid people imho.). This is about MMORPG's, not shooters. They are never 'complete'.
Yes, god forbid a game should release and be playable. Im definatly with you, theres nothign better than paying for a half finished product. I think tommorow ill go for lunch and order a hamdburger, politely telling them they can keep the other half as I dont really need it.
Don't twist my words. I'm merely commenting on the general tendency of people to flame mmorpg releases because they didn't deliver 100% as promised. That's pretty much impossible, as i already said. Also, i don't want an mmorpg to be 100% complete - if the devs stop adding content, that mostly heralds the end of any mmo.
I'm pretty sure DnL will be quite playable at release - fortress pvp, resource gathering (mining a.o.), pvp on it's own, monster ganking (a.k.a. what every other mmorpg mostly requires you to do), building villages and transport routes, exploring, crafting, rudimentary quests etc. There's enough to do in DnL at it's release.... People who find this type of play 'unrewarding' should look to another game anyway.
Originally posted by ChromeBallz Originally posted by OrccOriginally posted by ChromeBallzlike most people think ("they should finish the game before releasing it!!!!" -> VERY stupid people imho.).This is about MMORPG's, not shooters. They are never 'complete'.Yes, god forbid a game should release and be playable. Im definatly with you, theres nothign better than paying for a half finished product. I think tommorow ill go for lunch and order a hamdburger, politely telling them they can keep the other half as I dont really need it. Don't twist my words. I'm merely commenting on the general tendency of people to flame mmorpg releases because they didn't deliver 100% as promised. That's pretty much impossible, as i already said. Also, i don't want an mmorpg to be 100% complete - if the devs stop adding content, that mostly heralds the end of any mmo. I'm pretty sure DnL will be quite playable at release - fortress pvp, resource gathering (mining a.o.), pvp on it's own, monster ganking (a.k.a. what every other mmorpg mostly requires you to do), building villages and transport routes, exploring, crafting, rudimentary quests etc. There's enough to do in DnL at it's release.... People who find this type of play 'unrewarding' should look to another game anyway.
If you can point it to me where the devs said half of those things will be in at launch I would be very happy, because I just dont believe it. I can see PVP, mining, some quests, maybe crafting and mining, but I do not expect sieges, the social advancement system, town or home building and good quests to be in at launch. I could be wrong, I would love to be, but from the information released and the beta testimonials it doesnt sound like they will.
Some say that this payed beta will f*** up, but frankly,i don't see how that's possible.
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the frank admission by the devs to release the game in Nov 2005, whatever state the game is in and ask the community to pay (not donate) should give you cause for concern. Just my interpretation, however (and Darquenblade's, Jackdog's, Orcc's and Shae's). You have a different interpretation. Viva la difference!
The content for DnL needs a LOT of developing, and the devs will run out of money long before they 'complete' the game. An mmorpg is never complete - and promised features will find their way in eventually.
Don't understand your point. Orcc and others are referring to working implementation of features as promised for release (Gold) - not continued development of the game through adding content throughout its lifespan.
I'm taking EVE as the most prime example here - it was also released, half-beta - but right now it has more than 3 times the original content added, completely free expansions (well, except the monthly costs :P) and even some extra's.
I take issue with your example! I played Eve from summer 2003 (June) and whilst there were technical issues - disconnections, lag and CTD [crash to desktop] - the actual content was there. The game was playable and the features worked. In no way would I refer to Eve at launch as "half-beta". I suspect that you're confusing promised features upon release and developing content over a game's lifespan.
My fear for D&L is that it may become another Horizons. I hope the Devs are receptive enough to take on board people's hopes and their fears, and provide assurance before release to satisfy both sets of emotions.
We'll find out soon enough, won't we?
Regards, Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
Originally posted by ChromeBallz like most people think ("they should finish the game before releasing it!!!!" -> VERY stupid people imho.). This is about MMORPG's, not shooters. They are never 'complete'.
Yes, god forbid a game should release and be playable. Im definatly with you, theres nothign better than paying for a half finished product. I think tommorow ill go for lunch and order a hamdburger, politely telling them they can keep the other half as I dont really need it.
Don't twist my words. I'm merely commenting on the general tendency of people to flame mmorpg releases because they didn't deliver 100% as promised. That's pretty much impossible, as i already said. Also, i don't want an mmorpg to be 100% complete - if the devs stop adding content, that mostly heralds the end of any mmo.
I'm pretty sure DnL will be quite playable at release - fortress pvp, resource gathering (mining a.o.), pvp on it's own, monster ganking (a.k.a. what every other mmorpg mostly requires you to do), building villages and transport routes, exploring, crafting, rudimentary quests etc. There's enough to do in DnL at it's release.... People who find this type of play 'unrewarding' should look to another game anyway.
Look I will be happy with the game if they can get the servers half way stable, right now that is a major change for them from what I understand. By halfway stable I mean being able to stay up more than a hour at a time. As far as EvE goes I betaed that sucker and coined the phrase "in space no one can hear you snore, because of the emphasis on asteroid mining. After the beta was over I have never went back to even consider it, however even in mid beta it was stable and all of the core systems worked. At release the quests were a bit sparse but otherwise the game was in good shape. DnL right now from all accounts makes EvE at release look like CoH in comparison as far as content and it's stability is woefully lacking.
Thats just hearsay but I do know for a fact that at least 1 of the sources are indeed in the beta. Take it for what it is worth but if I weere you I would at least wait for a week or two afterl the NDA is dropped before making any decisions on purchase. But hey like I keep saying it's your money, spend it like you want to.
Originally posted by ukraina " There's enough to do in DnL at it's release.... " than why are testers saying it's just vast nothingness? and why is the NDA up if its so good? HMMMMMMMMMM? Why is there no FREE open beta RIGHT NOW? World of warcraft had no NDA.. do y ou know WHY they had no NDA? Because they had nothing to hide and knew they're shit was great.
WoW sucks boatloads of chode. Some like their MMOs easy I guess.
I'll take a half finished DnL over a finished WoW.............. oh wait thats right, WoW isnt finished. In fact they only have one finished class, the shaman. You would think a company that big with that many resources would finish their product before putting it out for retail. phhhht dumbasses
Originally posted by ukraina shut up you sucker. WoW is a 40 million dollar product made by a professional 100 man team. DnL is overhyped garbage built by a 15 man team that is no where even remotely near the kind of FINISHED that Wow is.
Hey fanboi, if they are all that.......Why isnt it finished yet?
Originally posted by ukraina the only one here who is in denial is you.
you and the DnL developers who actually think anyone is going to pay them to finish their game for them.
Yet another thread where you cant even defend what you write. I will ask again:
Why... if .... Blizzard ... is ... so ... good cant they finish their game?! Since you dont know or are too chicken shit to answer, I will tell you. MMOs are always works in progress. Some make it some dont. You and your ilk come out of the woodwork every freaking time a game is about to come out and scream at the top of your lungs "the sky is falling". The word for that behavior is, Trolling. You arent that good at it.
But yes I will being playing in November. Please go light if you ever pick up the game.
The fact you think Blizzard did not put together a COMMERCIALLY LAUNCHABLE GAME just shows how stupid you truly are.
Theres a difference between FINISHED and getting testers to pay you for another 6 months of work before you can commecially launch your product.
You deluded fool. The fact you'll be paying for a product that no publisher would commercially publish yet just shows what an idiot you are.
If DnL was DONE it would be in ->STORES<- and not taking peoples money for another 6 months before it can launch commercially. Seriously, how STUPID are you? and anyone else who pays for this?
I wouldnt say anything if it was like 2 months but 6 months of work left before it can be commercially acceptable? and they are launching it anyway?
It was already post poned for 8 months since April and they still didn't finish it properly. This project is dead unless they get investors and additional capitol. Not charge testers to support them. Wake up and smell the roses.
Originally posted by Jadal MMOs are always works in progress. Some make it some dont.
Jadal,
The whole "work in progress" is an extremely weak argument because we are not contesting continued development over the lifespan of a MMOG (see Jackdog's post on this point) - we are offering our collective opinion that the decision to release D&L in Nov 05, whatever state the game is in, and asking the community to effectively P2P for a beta product, is not only unacceptable but gives significant weight to the belief that D&L will be a rushed, under-developed product. Using WoW as an example of an under-developed game was rather ironic given its relatively smooth release and commercial success, compared to its peers - especially ANY SoE release!
Shae remarked on the commercial 'success' of other such games - AO, Horizons, SWG - that were released far too early in their development phase missing significant promised features, or these features not working. Yes, I am aware that SWG may be considered a commercial success - then SoE have plenty of money to throw at the problem. Something that the developers of D&L evidently do not.
This is the most troubling aspect for an early release of the game: it gives rise to the perception that venture capital for the development of this MMOG is running out fast.
You and your ilk come out of the woodwork every freaking time a game is about to come out and scream at the top of your lungs "the sky is falling". The word for that behavior is, Trolling. You arent that good at it.
I could say that you and your ilk come out of the woodwork every freaking time a game is about to come out and scream at the top of your lungs "this game will be the best ever". The word for that behaviour is, Fanaticism. But then we're no longer debating the issue and this discussion ceases to be constructive, so let's move on shall we?
I shan't be playing D&L upon release in November because I have very little confidence in a playable product being released that bares passing resemblence to the game that was promised. However, you pay your money, you take your choice - Caveat Emptor, and all that.
Regards, Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
firstly i agree with riotgirl on the fact that jadal is being fanatical and needs to calm down but...
I dont agree with the idea of DnL being rushed and the fact they have had the NDA for so long proves it, no matter how much people have begged they havnt lifted it instead of doing what SOE did with SWG and the combat upgrade.
also theres the argument that DnL wont have much content at launch, personaly i think it will have loads , there will be live events every day !! and on ocation players will be given certain powers by GMs so they can organise there own.Battles have the possibilty of being 1000vs1000 of players.
I agree that DnL wont have everything at launch but after about 6 months it will be jam packed full of content and fun.
Another plus is there are 42 different social classses and 16 different fighting classes thus this will have a very well done crafting system much better than WoW which for me is the worst ive ever seen in a MMORPG.
I havnt even mentioned that this game is the virtual size of holland it will have no zones and practicaly no lag due to there server cluster system.
all i can say is DnL i am prepared for pain from this game but i have high hopes
Originally posted by HaIrYDeAtH Ok heres my opinion firstly i agree with riotgirl on the fact that jadal is being fanatical and needs to calm down
Just a small correction: I was merely using Jadal's own argument to illustrate how one could construe his own point towards fanboi behaviour. Thus, how facile such arguments are.
all i can say is DnL i am prepared for pain from this game but i have high hopes
I would like to see a product that contains everything that you listed and one that fulfills your hopes. I would enjoy playing that MMOG as well As you know, I take a very different view and don't share your sunny optimism - much the same way you do not share my overcast pessimism . But we've debated this issue to death so I'm dipping out of this debate until release in Nov 05.
Regards, Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
Comments
Thing is, you say only a fool would pay for release or whatever, well 50 or 60 bucks isn't a lot to me. If I see this game in stores I'm gonna buy it no matter what. Losing 60 bucks might be a big deal to someone else, and while I'm not rich, that is really nothing to me.
Hell I bought an Atari Jaguar and enjoyed the heck out of AvP, most people would say I'm crazy for buying it to which I say: No man, I'm a gamer.
Here's to hoping they haven't run out of money and that the game rocks on launch. I for one am glad when a company doesn't release so much info before release.
I wish it was like the old days where you heard a game was coming out, months passed, and it came out and THEN you judged it. Nowadays you have a bunch of 12teen year old gamer enthusiasts killing games with their trolling ways before the damn thing has a chance to come out. The internet is the devil, ya heard?
So Jackdog do you think that 2 full months isn't enough time to finish this game for a November release?
Darq mon frere? I guess I deserved that one for the 'MMORPG Avenger' remark, heh.
So clear something up for me then..are you saying that you believe the devs will push back the game again in November (regardless of what they are saying now), or do you think they will indeed release in November, but it will somehow be magically complete? Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing where you are coming from. On one hand you say you never doubted the November release, but you then say that you wouldn't doubt it being pushed back again.
Personally, I would hope that they take all the time needed, but the devs have got this 'now or never' mentality going on right now that makes the prospect seem unlikely.
HEHE well what I meant was, I saw the official release date so I wasn't doubting Jackdogs release date as it seemed official. However, would it suprise me to see the release date for ANY game pushed back? Hell no. I have been around far too long for that.
It sort of started for me with the Colecovision expansion module. If you were old enough to remember, they had advertisements in magazines and everything, showing the smart cards the games would be on (credit card sized cartridges). The expansion module was to increase the Colecovisions memory and we would finally be playing true arcade quality games at home!
Yadda yadda yadda, it got pushed back past the christmas it was supposed to be released, and much to my chagrin, it never actually came out.
It's amazing I have kept my cynicism at bay all these years enough to still love video games in general. I think this has to do with the fact that I never burned myself out on them. Now, I've had my till 5am sessions on Everquest, but those were a real rarity. I now play about 2 hours a night, and on my day off when the gf is out I get to play for about 4 or 5. But I still have been burned too many times to believe ANY release date, period.
I miss DAoC
For me it has nothing to do with 50 or 60 bucks being a lot of money. Its not much at all. Its the point of rewarding devs for not doing a good job. Its getting to the point were there will be no beta testing anymore. Go straight from alpha to a pay to play system.
I don't blame the devs either because they feel they can get money from people so why not. My hat is off to the D&L team if they make a killing releasing a game with most of its core features left out.
Well here's my take on it....
EQII - Nice try...but not quite there. 8 character names with no spaces? wth? Gameplay is fair. Graphics are ok...but very beefy to those with middle of the road machines. (tested with low, mid and high range PCs).
WoW - *buzzer* not even gonna waste my time with this one.
Asheron's Call - Not too much for graphics, but the gameplay and community were way ahead of its time. Played this for 5 years and still have not found its equal.
Asheron's Call 2 - This one is some serious eye candy. The PvP and Kingdom vs Kingdom play is unmatched. They have managed to give respectable balance between solo and group gameplay. The community here is very tight and was always fun. Granted AC2 had some major problems at original launch, but the dev team has done amazing work. So far I haven't found a newer MMO that can touch it yet. It's a shame people didn't give this one a chance...now it is on its deathbed.
D&D Online - This one has some promise...but with Turbine's HORRIBLE mismanagement of AC2...I doubt I'm gonna waste my time on it. This one like WoW will be a game for the fanatics. I want something original.
DnL - I forsee this one will follow the same path as AC2....but it's future is not yet set in stone. Give this one some time and it will blossom. I'm very interested to get my hands on this one.
Uh-oh - the AC2 fanbois have gotten loose!
Umm - AC2 PvP was terribly unbalanced - the devs pretty much admitted as much and gave up on it. The KvK gameplay was unmatched insomuch as no other game mechanism in any game caused as much apathy amongst it's players. AC2 closed for a reason - no one played it because most people found it terribly boring. While the game did improve drastically from launch - it never really developed into anything compelling...
Before we get too off topic - i think that it is pretty clear that there are a lot of people very concerned about the game releasing without a beta, or releasing as a pay to play beta a la mourning. If they are out of money and the November sorta-release is a financial necessity, than this game is in big trouble.
I agree with Brig - it is more about rewarding devs who cut corners and release unfinished games after enticing us with awesome concepts for years. They must be stopped!Both Jackdog and darquenblade are right on the money with D&L. I was absolutely horrified when I found out that the game was being released - come what may - in Nov 05, if even to a limited community. Asking people to PAY (I don't care how little or how much) to work on the development of a game is NOT a good sign and does not fill me with confidence about the viability and health of the game or indeed the financial health of the developers.
I became interested in MMOGs again at the start of the year initially through reading up on D&L. 9 months on - 2 from what was the 'official' release date and this crap is pulled. Take off those rose-coloured spectacles and LOOK at the evidence (graveyard) of rushed, under-developed MMOGs. We care just as much as you, which is why Jackdog & others are expressing their reservations because it is absolutely idiotic to follow in the footsteps of MMOGs that have fallen over a cliff.
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
As I said in the other thread the only game I would really compare it to is Mourning for the reason I mentioned there. I get a really bad feeling when the developers more or less admit that the game is a pile before they even release it and appeal to the fanboys to help them build their game. I might DL it if it's free but I don't pay top beta a game.
DnL is [b]not[/b] Mourning.
Mourning is simply a badly designed game, with arses as community managers/devs. They showed the same screenshots forever, and didn't release anything else, and their 'betatest' was so bad that most beta-players stopped playing it almost immediately after they got in. At least, that's what i heard.
DnL is a large game with several professional companies backing it up, with licensed technology (DnL's landscape engine hasn't been developed in-house), a large community, friendly devs (although a bit communicatively shy - but who wants 200,000 people nagging at their heads for this or that feature?), and above all, lots of actual game footage (as several E3 shows and lots of videos/screenshots show).
So, to get this straight, DnL has been pulled into this discussion quite involuntarily bu a Mourning dev, in an attempt to drag DnL even below the elvel of his own game. So, please, people, stop comparing DnL to Mourning, the later game has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Some say that this payed beta will f*** up, but frankly,i don't see how that's possible. The content for DnL needs a LOT of developing, and the devs will run out of money long before they 'complete' the game. An mmorpg is never complete - and promised features will find their way in eventually. I'm taking EVE as the most prime example here - it was also released, half-beta - but right now it has more than 3 times the original content added, completely free expansions (well, except the monthly costs :P) and even some extra's. I expect the same to happen with DnL, to keep players interested. Continuing to add content is a good thing, not a bad thing, like most people think ("they should finish the game before releasing it!!!!" -> VERY stupid people imho.).
This is about MMORPG's, not shooters. They are never 'complete'. If they were, people would stop playing as soon as they found everything and did everything.
In other words: I suspect DnL to have a few troubles at release, but nothing major. Most of it will revolve around server stability and balancing, with content being developed in the background. In the meantime, players can start developing Ganareth's political borders and economy, which can be a healthy base for getting more players into the game at the shelf release.
Me, personally, i can't wait till i can simply walk about and explore.......
Playing: WF
Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA
Yes, god forbid a game should release and be playable. Im definatly with you, theres nothign better than paying for a half finished product. I think tommorow ill go for lunch and order a hamdburger, politely telling them they can keep the other half as I dont really need it.
Sure, MMORPGs are 'never complete', that doesnt mean they cant have decent content and systems at launch. The only news I ever hear about this game is how nice their weather system is, or how big the world will be and how many transport systems there are. Guess what? I dont care about that! I play games to play them, not wander around admiring graphics. I like exploring more than the average person, but you can only look at the same things so many times before you start to wonder why youre just running around aimlessly.
MMORPGs are great because they let a large number of people play together by doing quests, fighting epic monsters and creating conflict. Well, DnL has the 'ideas' down, but I have yet to see a good example of them shown off in the game. The few times (very few) theyve shown combat, its been some very static and very repetaive animations. Some of the spells look good, but theyve onyl really shown off a few and every one whos a mage seems to be using the same spells.
They better get their act together in the few months and put some of those great ideas into this game soon, or its going to fail bigtime.
Im not trying to be negative, ive been following this game for over a year now, its just the progress on this game has been barely noticeable, aside from a few new ugly player races and the new bionatics (which look very nice). Lets see some gameplay! No more hangliding and sledging!
Yes, god forbid a game should release and be playable. Im definatly with you, theres nothign better than paying for a half finished product. I think tommorow ill go for lunch and order a hamdburger, politely telling them they can keep the other half as I dont really need it.
Don't twist my words. I'm merely commenting on the general tendency of people to flame mmorpg releases because they didn't deliver 100% as promised. That's pretty much impossible, as i already said. Also, i don't want an mmorpg to be 100% complete - if the devs stop adding content, that mostly heralds the end of any mmo.
I'm pretty sure DnL will be quite playable at release - fortress pvp, resource gathering (mining a.o.), pvp on it's own, monster ganking (a.k.a. what every other mmorpg mostly requires you to do), building villages and transport routes, exploring, crafting, rudimentary quests etc. There's enough to do in DnL at it's release.... People who find this type of play 'unrewarding' should look to another game anyway.
Playing: WF
Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA
If you can point it to me where the devs said half of those things will be in at launch I would be very happy, because I just dont believe it. I can see PVP, mining, some quests, maybe crafting and mining, but I do not expect sieges, the social advancement system, town or home building and good quests to be in at launch. I could be wrong, I would love to be, but from the information released and the beta testimonials it doesnt sound like they will.
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the frank admission by the devs to release the game in Nov 2005, whatever state the game is in and ask the community to pay (not donate) should give you cause for concern. Just my interpretation, however (and Darquenblade's, Jackdog's, Orcc's and Shae's). You have a different interpretation. Viva la difference!
Don't understand your point. Orcc and others are referring to working implementation of features as promised for release (Gold) - not continued development of the game through adding content throughout its lifespan.
I take issue with your example! I played Eve from summer 2003 (June) and whilst there were technical issues - disconnections, lag and CTD [crash to desktop] - the actual content was there. The game was playable and the features worked. In no way would I refer to Eve at launch as "half-beta". I suspect that you're confusing promised features upon release and developing content over a game's lifespan.
My fear for D&L is that it may become another Horizons. I hope the Devs are receptive enough to take on board people's hopes and their fears, and provide assurance before release to satisfy both sets of emotions.
We'll find out soon enough, won't we?
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
Yes, god forbid a game should release and be playable. Im definatly with you, theres nothign better than paying for a half finished product. I think tommorow ill go for lunch and order a hamdburger, politely telling them they can keep the other half as I dont really need it.
Don't twist my words. I'm merely commenting on the general tendency of people to flame mmorpg releases because they didn't deliver 100% as promised. That's pretty much impossible, as i already said. Also, i don't want an mmorpg to be 100% complete - if the devs stop adding content, that mostly heralds the end of any mmo.
I'm pretty sure DnL will be quite playable at release - fortress pvp, resource gathering (mining a.o.), pvp on it's own, monster ganking (a.k.a. what every other mmorpg mostly requires you to do), building villages and transport routes, exploring, crafting, rudimentary quests etc. There's enough to do in DnL at it's release.... People who find this type of play 'unrewarding' should look to another game anyway.
Look I will be happy with the game if they can get the servers half way stable, right now that is a major change for them from what I understand. By halfway stable I mean being able to stay up more than a hour at a time. As far as EvE goes I betaed that sucker and coined the phrase "in space no one can hear you snore, because of the emphasis on asteroid mining. After the beta was over I have never went back to even consider it, however even in mid beta it was stable and all of the core systems worked. At release the quests were a bit sparse but otherwise the game was in good shape. DnL right now from all accounts makes EvE at release look like CoH in comparison as far as content and it's stability is woefully lacking.
Thats just hearsay but I do know for a fact that at least 1 of the sources are indeed in the beta. Take it for what it is worth but if I weere you I would at least wait for a week or two afterl the NDA is dropped before making any decisions on purchase. But hey like I keep saying it's your money, spend it like you want to.
I miss DAoC
" There's enough to do in DnL at it's release.... "
than why are testers saying it's just vast nothingness?
and why is the NDA up if its so good? HMMMMMMMMMM? Why is there no FREE open beta RIGHT NOW?
World of warcraft had no NDA.. do y ou know WHY they had no NDA? Because they had nothing to hide and knew they're shit was great.
WoW sucks boatloads of chode. Some like their MMOs easy I guess.
I'll take a half finished DnL over a finished WoW.............. oh wait thats right, WoW isnt finished. In fact they only have one finished class, the shaman. You would think a company that big with that many resources would finish their product before putting it out for retail. phhhht dumbasses
shut up you sucker. WoW is a 40 million dollar product made by a professional 100 man team.
DnL is overhyped garbage built by a 15 man team that is no where even remotely near the kind of FINISHED that Wow is.
Hey fanboi, if they are all that.......Why isnt it finished yet?
Denial........It's not just a river in Egypt.
the only one here who is in denial is you.
you and the DnL developers who actually think anyone is going to pay them to finish their game for them.
Why... if .... Blizzard ... is ... so ... good cant they finish their game?! Since you dont know or are too chicken shit to answer, I will tell you. MMOs are always works in progress. Some make it some dont. You and your ilk come out of the woodwork every freaking time a game is about to come out and scream at the top of your lungs "the sky is falling". The word for that behavior is, Trolling. You arent that good at it.
But yes I will being playing in November. Please go light if you ever pick up the game.
Troll attempt: .5/10
The fact you think Blizzard did not put together a COMMERCIALLY LAUNCHABLE GAME just shows how stupid you truly are.
Theres a difference between FINISHED and getting testers to pay you for another 6 months of work before you can commecially launch your product.
You deluded fool. The fact you'll be paying for a product that no publisher would commercially publish yet just shows what an idiot you are.
If DnL was DONE it would be in ->STORES<- and not taking peoples money for another 6 months before it can launch commercially. Seriously, how STUPID are you? and anyone else who pays for this?
I wouldnt say anything if it was like 2 months but 6 months of work left before it can be commercially acceptable? and they are launching it anyway?
It was already post poned for 8 months since April and they still didn't finish it properly. This project is dead unless they get investors and additional capitol. Not charge testers to support them. Wake up and smell the roses.
When you call me names it make me cry. /sniffle
If your not in school, go back. Your ablility to make an objective argument leaves much to be desired.
Jadal,
The whole "work in progress" is an extremely weak argument because we are not contesting continued development over the lifespan of a MMOG (see Jackdog's post on this point) - we are offering our collective opinion that the decision to release D&L in Nov 05, whatever state the game is in, and asking the community to effectively P2P for a beta product, is not only unacceptable but gives significant weight to the belief that D&L will be a rushed, under-developed product. Using WoW as an example of an under-developed game was rather ironic given its relatively smooth release and commercial success, compared to its peers - especially ANY SoE release!
Shae remarked on the commercial 'success' of other such games - AO, Horizons, SWG - that were released far too early in their development phase missing significant promised features, or these features not working. Yes, I am aware that SWG may be considered a commercial success - then SoE have plenty of money to throw at the problem. Something that the developers of D&L evidently do not.
This is the most troubling aspect for an early release of the game: it gives rise to the perception that venture capital for the development of this MMOG is running out fast.
I could say that you and your ilk come out of the woodwork every freaking time a game is about to come out and scream at the top of your lungs "this game will be the best ever". The word for that behaviour is, Fanaticism. But then we're no longer debating the issue and this discussion ceases to be constructive, so let's move on shall we?
I shan't be playing D&L upon release in November because I have very little confidence in a playable product being released that bares passing resemblence to the game that was promised. However, you pay your money, you take your choice - Caveat Emptor, and all that.
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
Ok heres my opinion
firstly i agree with riotgirl on the fact that jadal is being fanatical and needs to calm down but...
I dont agree with the idea of DnL being rushed and the fact they have had the NDA for so long proves it, no matter how much people have begged they havnt lifted it instead of doing what SOE did with SWG and the combat upgrade.
also theres the argument that DnL wont have much content at launch, personaly i think it will have loads , there will be live events every day !! and on ocation players will be given certain powers by GMs so they can organise there own.Battles have the possibilty of being 1000vs1000 of players.
I agree that DnL wont have everything at launch but after about 6 months it will be jam packed full of content and fun.
Another plus is there are 42 different social classses and 16 different fighting classes thus this will have a very well done crafting system much better than WoW which for me is the worst ive ever seen in a MMORPG.
I havnt even mentioned that this game is the virtual size of holland it will have no zones and practicaly no lag due to there server cluster system.
all i can say is
DnL i am prepared for pain from this game but i have high hopes
Just a small correction: I was merely using Jadal's own argument to illustrate how one could construe his own point towards fanboi behaviour. Thus, how facile such arguments are.
I would like to see a product that contains everything that you listed and one that fulfills your hopes. I would enjoy playing that MMOG as well
As you know, I take a very different view and don't share your sunny optimism - much the same way you do not share my overcast pessimism 
. But we've debated this issue to death so I'm dipping out of this debate until release in Nov 05.
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."