I dont think MMOs are dead. Few reasons. 1. Some of the best MMOs are yet to come. I could list a bunch but really, Riot is getting into the MMO space, have they made a bad game? lol 2. Some of the really cool MMOs coming out are not jack of all trades. Many are making games for markets of players. Ashes of Creation making one just for PvP players who like meaning in their PvP encounters, just like the DAoC days. (I get this is not DAoC) Core Punk looking to get ARPG players into their space, Soulframe is making a gritty Eldens Ring art and combat style game. 3. Most MMOs get MMOers like to hope MMOs or play single player games as well. Content reflects that now. IMO we are now entering the golden age of MMOs. Companies are no longer just making WoW clones. Also UE5 lets developers pump out content so quick, its way cheaper to make MMOs and expansions.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think the whole "MMOs are dead" thing is more about what kind of MMOs are being made and less about how many there are or how many people are playing.
It is more a statement that the kind of MMOs you like are currently not being made.
For example, my favorite MMO ever, and my gold standard of MMO design is City of Heroes. The only games that have that CoH DNA are Champions Online (not as good IMO) DCUO (a little bit) Star Trek Online (more like a distant cousin)
And there really aren't any new MMOs in development that have that CoH feel ( doesn't actually have to be super heroes, just play like CoH) Other than a few fan projects which, let's be honest, were never going to happen anyway.
So I guess for my particular tastes the MMO genre is "dead", even though there are a bunch of new games coming out.
So I get the "MMOs are dead" thing, even if they literally aren't I mean I am still waiting for a new Powerstone and Megaman Legends.
There are "plenty" of MMOs coming out, but "true" MMORPGS, none on the near horizon that I can see.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Given that a good portion of the games included in Wiki's list of MMOs are not, in fact, MMOs, the situation is pretty dire.
As to all these "fantastic" new MMORPGs in development? Couldn't care less until they release. Crowdfunding promised us tons of new MMOs are virtually all of them fell flat, with few releasing and only 1 or 2 (albion?) actually being successful. Those 5 MMORPGs being developed in Unreal? Very little chance of them being massively multiplayer as Unreal Engine doesn't support MMO numbers.
And those saying there are more people playing MMORPGs now than ever before? I highly doubt it. There have been very few new MMOs released in the last 10 years, especially from AAA studios. The top MMOs are all losing players - which is totally natural - and there are no new mmos to attract a new audience.
The only reason games like ESO and FFXIV have managed to maintain decent player numbers is a complete lack of competition in the AAA space. The only game that might have challenged them is New World, which turned out to be a dud.
Now, all that said, I don't think the genre will die. It's been stagnating for a long time, and regressing in terms of gameplay, so things aren't good. But all it will take is a single new good MMORPG to revitalise the genre. AAA studios have been largely avoiding MMOs for a while now because they can't figure out how to be successful, but as soon as someone shows them how to do it in the modern market, they'll all jump back on the bandwagon.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I dont think MMOs are dead. Few reasons. 1. Some of the best MMOs are yet to come. I could list a bunch but really, Riot is getting into the MMO space, have they made a bad game? lol 2. Some of the really cool MMOs coming out are not jack of all trades. Many are making games for markets of players. Ashes of Creation making one just for PvP players who like meaning in their PvP encounters, just like the DAoC days. (I get this is not DAoC) Core Punk looking to get ARPG players into their space, Soulframe is making a gritty Eldens Ring art and combat style game. 3. Most MMOs get MMOers like to hope MMOs or play single player games as well. Content reflects that now. IMO we are now entering the golden age of MMOs. Companies are no longer just making WoW clones. Also UE5 lets developers pump out content so quick, its way cheaper to make MMOs and expansions.
The best you got, is not what has been coming out in the last 10 years, but what "might" come out in some "distant" future?
I seen a movie about this concept once. Neverending story, all you had to do was believe and it would come true. I believed so much, but for some reason I never got that flying dragon dog.
What you mean the stagnant cesspool of pay 2 win MMOs, kickstarters in development hell, the same lists of upcoming MMORPGs for years and that Unreal 5 video, with games that will never see the light of day and if they do will be pay 2 everything, didn't get you excited about the future of the MMORPG genre?
Not even looking forward to what AI might be able to do?
Don't worry the MMORPG genre is in such a great state that I play emulators based on games from 20+ years ago. Actual innovation happens there like what they have done with Turtle WoW. There's P99, SWG, UO private shards, City of Heroes, and more!
We had big releases like New World with it's 0.1 retention rate!
I don't know how anyone could possibly come to the conclusion that the MMORPG genre is in any kind of trouble. Completely out of touch with reality to the point of absurdity!
They are making more money off feeding the pay piggies slop than ever before. Get excited for mobile MMORPGs!
I don't know how you guys can be such doom and gloomers. I mean I have to agree with Knightfails on that one. Just don't ask me to give any examples of anything released that is actually worth playing Kyleran! At least Amaranthar got a chuckle out of my comments. Cameltosis almost gave my clever satire away if anyone read his link and saw my posts about the stagnation of this cesspool though.
For real tho fingers crossed but breath not held that something releases in the next 5-10 years that isn't pay 2 win crap. In the meantime emulators are holding this genre together for me.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Genre is so dead here's a 40 min video on just Unreal 5 MMORPGs.
5months ago -_-
Thing to remember is Unreal 5 probably will help make prettier MMOs, perhaps even more quickly, but in no way guarantees that good MMORPGs will be made, especially ones with some designs that I personally favor.
So 5 new MMOs that I'll likely never play is still a net of zero.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Given that a good portion of the games included in Wiki's list of MMOs are not, in fact, MMOs, the situation is pretty dire.
As to all these "fantastic" new MMORPGs in development? Couldn't care less until they release. Crowdfunding promised us tons of new MMOs are virtually all of them fell flat, with few releasing and only 1 or 2 (albion?) actually being successful. Those 5 MMORPGs being developed in Unreal? Very little chance of them being massively multiplayer as Unreal Engine doesn't support MMO numbers.
And those saying there are more people playing MMORPGs now than ever before? I highly doubt it. There have been very few new MMOs released in the last 10 years, especially from AAA studios. The top MMOs are all losing players - which is totally natural - and there are no new mmos to attract a new audience.
The only reason games like ESO and FFXIV have managed to maintain decent player numbers is a complete lack of competition in the AAA space. The only game that might have challenged them is New World, which turned out to be a dud.
Now, all that said, I don't think the genre will die. It's been stagnating for a long time, and regressing in terms of gameplay, so things aren't good. But all it will take is a single new good MMORPG to revitalise the genre. AAA studios have been largely avoiding MMOs for a while now because they can't figure out how to be successful, but as soon as someone shows them how to do it in the modern market, they'll all jump back on the bandwagon.
I think the main problem is whenever we see a MMO of the Year poll its always games that are older than 5 years.....The most recent AAA release, New World, doesnt seem to be able to hold on to players, even though it doesnt even charge a monthly fee....I think the reason why so many think the genre is stagnant is that the game often considered the best was made almost 20 years ago (WoW).
MMOs are a GAAS, they don't need New Ones, they just need the good ones to not fuck shit up, have a solid vision, and keep improving upon that. Put out content, and make the game better for the player they are trying to attract
Only time a player wants a new MMO is if their current one turned into a shit sandwich somehow.
Often MMO's shit the bed when they try to cast too broad a net, and alienate their current player base, like what GW2 did with HoT, total fuck up right there, I'm somewhat happy to see GW2 learned from their Fuck Up and turned that boat around, I still feel bad for all the staff that needed to lose their job over it, but that's what happens when the person at the helm has no fucking clue what they are doing, the rest of the crew suffers.
But really, we don't need new MMO's we need the MMO's that we have, to not have what amounts to a drunken stoned misguided captain Ahab at the helm, trying to spear a white whale (The Vaunted WoW Bucks), and instead focus on keeping their shit and their ship in good working order and being happy with a good catch.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Genre is so dead here's a 40 min video on just Unreal 5 MMORPGs.
5months ago -_-
Thing to remember is Unreal 5 probably will help make prettier MMOs, perhaps even more quickly, but in no way guarantees that good MMORPGs will be made, especially ones with some designs that I personally favor.
So 5 new MMOs that I'll likely never play is still a net of zero.
Unironically, I prefer stylized low poly graphics every time over high poly modern AAA graphics Not saying Unreal 5 is a waste of time, but kinda
Yes - a fraction of the triangles minimal processing effects
No - a million bazillion triangles and processing effects
So it isn't about tech to me, we had the tech for 15 years, just a interesting art style and the rest is good game design.
Unironically, I prefer stylized low poly graphics every time over high poly modern AAA graphics
Not to mention, Slightly Stylized Graphic age better, so they are overall a better system for MMO's that plan to be around for 10+ years.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
MMOs are a GAAS, they don't need New Ones, they just need the good ones to not fuck shit up, have a solid vision, and keep improving upon that. Put out content, and make the game better for the player they are trying to attract
The problem is that older MMOs tend to deprecate everything but the latest endgame, but still make you slog through the lower level content in order to reach that endgame. So if you're not already at the endgame, then the game will be horrible. And if you are already at the endgame, then the game will still be horrible because that's what endgames have always been.
Unironically, I prefer stylized low poly graphics every time over high poly modern AAA graphics
Not to mention, Slightly Stylized Graphic age better, so they are overall a better system for MMO's that plan to be around for 10+ years.
Lotro is still my baseline for minimum graphics quality in a MMO, that game shows you can minimalize the processing without having avatars which are too cartoony.
Unironically, I prefer stylized low poly graphics every time over high poly modern AAA graphics
Not to mention, Slightly Stylized Graphic age better, so they are overall a better system for MMO's that plan to be around for 10+ years.
Lotro is still my baseline for minimum graphics quality in a MMO, that game shows you can minimalize the processing without having avatars which are too cartoony.
AAA graphics means AAA company and AAA monetization They are only going to make certain types of games and they will be monetized to the gills.
The indie space has a wide range of art styles that use anything from pixel art to hand drawn to low poly, significantly faster and cheaper than AAA graphics, plus it looks a whole lot better in my opinion.
Indie MMOs thus far have been larping as AAA games and have not embraced their indie status and chosen art styles to match.
An example of how much that can affect a game,
From shooters, Battlebit has blocky characters but also 254 player matches and destructible environments It is better than any AAA FPS from over 10 years And it was made by 3 guys. Plus I like the block characters more than whatever EA Dice is doing.
Unironically, I prefer stylized low poly graphics every time over high poly modern AAA graphics
Not to mention, Slightly Stylized Graphic age better, so they are overall a better system for MMO's that plan to be around for 10+ years.
Lotro is still my baseline for minimum graphics quality in a MMO, that game shows you can minimalize the processing without having avatars which are too cartoony.
AAA graphics means AAA company and AAA monetization They are only going to make certain types of games and they will be monetized to the gills.
The indie space has a wide range of art styles that use anything from pixel art to hand drawn to low poly, significantly faster and cheaper than AAA graphics, plus it looks a whole lot better in my opinion.
Indie MMOs thus far have been larping as AAA games and have not embraced their indie status and chosen art styles to match.
An example of how much that can affect a game,
From shooters, Battlebit has blocky characters but also 254 player matches and destructible environments It is better than any AAA FPS from over 10 years And it was made by 3 guys. Plus I like the block characters more than whatever EA Dice is doing.
There is a limit to how low I will go graphics wise, the game has to be exceptional for me to except blocky characters, but I will take a look
Unironically, I prefer stylized low poly graphics every time over high poly modern AAA graphics
Not to mention, Slightly Stylized Graphic age better, so they are overall a better system for MMO's that plan to be around for 10+ years.
Lotro is still my baseline for minimum graphics quality in a MMO, that game shows you can minimalize the processing without having avatars which are too cartoony.
AAA graphics means AAA company and AAA monetization They are only going to make certain types of games and they will be monetized to the gills.
The indie space has a wide range of art styles that use anything from pixel art to hand drawn to low poly, significantly faster and cheaper than AAA graphics, plus it looks a whole lot better in my opinion.
Indie MMOs thus far have been larping as AAA games and have not embraced their indie status and chosen art styles to match.
An example of how much that can affect a game,
From shooters, Battlebit has blocky characters but also 254 player matches and destructible environments It is better than any AAA FPS from over 10 years And it was made by 3 guys. Plus I like the block characters more than whatever EA Dice is doing.
There is a limit to how low I will go graphics wise, the game has to be exceptional for me to except blocky characters, but I will take a look
The game is pretty great,
But also the point is that for a team of three, massive FPS battles and destructible environments blocky low poly characters make perfect sense
It allows the devs to make 254 person battles and destructible environments that run on most all modernish computers But also allows the art department (which I think is 1 guy) to actually make the assests needed for the game.
It is a great example of a team embracing their limitations and making something truly great that no AAA company would even attempt much less pull off.
Compared to Battlefield, which they obviously take inspiration from, Battlebit is averaging a little more players in 24 hours than the vastly more expensive 2042.
Yes AAA games still make way more money, but their bar for success is far higher and a game can still flop despite making profit. Indie games have such low costs that they can make money hand over fist by selling a 15$ box price.
So we need more MMO devs that think like the Battlebit guys and do more with less.
From shooters, Battlebit has blocky characters but also 254 player matches and destructible environments It is better than any AAA FPS from over 10 years And it was made by 3 guys. Plus I like the block characters more than whatever EA Dice is doing.
I've not heard of Battlebit before, but 254 player matches makes it an MMO in my book!
I'll definitely have to check it out now, as I've been saying for years that I'd love to see a Battlefield game but scaled up to MMO numbers!
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
MMOs are a GAAS, they don't need New Ones, they just need the good ones to not fuck shit up, have a solid vision, and keep improving upon that. Put out content, and make the game better for the player they are trying to attract
The problem is that older MMOs tend to deprecate everything but the latest endgame, but still make you slog through the lower level content in order to reach that endgame. So if you're not already at the endgame, then the game will be horrible. And if you are already at the endgame, then the game will still be horrible because that's what endgames have always been.
You sound very bitter, have you tried not giving fuck?
Or maybe touching some grass?
But this is also why I like GW2 so much, the horizontal progression, and down leveling keep it so that the whole game, from the starter zones to the end game all remain relevant.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The reality in 2023 is that companies can make alot more money elsewhere and many younger gamers are turning to mobile games for convenience over quality. People just dont sit around and play a MMO for 14-18 hours a day like they used to.
I never played a MMORPG for 14 to 18 hours a day and my guess is those kind of hours were more of an outlier rather than the norm.
These games were never designed for that sort of player, in fact I'm sure the early developers were surprised to find out such no lifers even existed.
Whereas today spending 14 to 18 hours a day on social media is not abnormal for a streamer/"influencer". Your online life is more important than your real life and we were supposedly the "no lifers"!
For the extremely successful ones it's their career and they make a good deal of money at it. That's a bit more sensible than doing it strictly as a hobby.
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Scotsman, attack!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I seen a movie about this concept once. Neverending story, all you had to do was believe and it would come true. I believed so much, but for some reason I never got that flying dragon dog.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not even looking forward to what AI might be able to do?
Don't worry the MMORPG genre is in such a great state that I play emulators based on games from 20+ years ago. Actual innovation happens there like what they have done with Turtle WoW. There's P99, SWG, UO private shards, City of Heroes, and more!
We had big releases like New World with it's 0.1 retention rate!
I don't know how anyone could possibly come to the conclusion that the MMORPG genre is in any kind of trouble. Completely out of touch with reality to the point of absurdity!
They are making more money off feeding the pay piggies slop than ever before. Get excited for mobile MMORPGs!
I don't know how you guys can be such doom and gloomers. I mean I have to agree with Knightfails on that one. Just don't ask me to give any examples of anything released that is actually worth playing Kyleran! At least Amaranthar got a chuckle out of my comments. Cameltosis almost gave my clever satire away if anyone read his link and saw my posts about the stagnation of this cesspool though.
For real tho fingers crossed but breath not held that something releases in the next 5-10 years that isn't pay 2 win crap. In the meantime emulators are holding this genre together for me.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/5months ago -_-
So 5 new MMOs that I'll likely never play is still a net of zero.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think the main problem is whenever we see a MMO of the Year poll its always games that are older than 5 years.....The most recent AAA release, New World, doesnt seem to be able to hold on to players, even though it doesnt even charge a monthly fee....I think the reason why so many think the genre is stagnant is that the game often considered the best was made almost 20 years ago (WoW).
Only time a player wants a new MMO is if their current one turned into a shit sandwich somehow.
Often MMO's shit the bed when they try to cast too broad a net, and alienate their current player base, like what GW2 did with HoT, total fuck up right there, I'm somewhat happy to see GW2 learned from their Fuck Up and turned that boat around, I still feel bad for all the staff that needed to lose their job over it, but that's what happens when the person at the helm has no fucking clue what they are doing, the rest of the crew suffers.
But really, we don't need new MMO's we need the MMO's that we have, to not have what amounts to a drunken stoned misguided captain Ahab at the helm, trying to spear a white whale (The Vaunted WoW Bucks), and instead focus on keeping their shit and their ship in good working order and being happy with a good catch.
Not saying Unreal 5 is a waste of time, but kinda
Yes - a fraction of the triangles minimal processing effects
No - a million bazillion triangles and processing effects
So it isn't about tech to me, we had the tech for 15 years, just a interesting art style and the rest is good game design.
no they don't unless they get a high rez patch and use ray tracing lol.
They are only going to make certain types of games and they will be monetized to the gills.
The indie space has a wide range of art styles that use anything from pixel art to hand drawn to low poly, significantly faster and cheaper than AAA graphics, plus it looks a whole lot better in my opinion.
Indie MMOs thus far have been larping as AAA games and have not embraced their indie status and chosen art styles to match.
An example of how much that can affect a game,
From shooters, Battlebit has blocky characters but also 254 player matches and destructible environments
It is better than any AAA FPS from over 10 years
And it was made by 3 guys.
Plus I like the block characters more than whatever EA Dice is doing.
But also the point is that for a team of three, massive FPS battles and destructible environments blocky low poly characters make perfect sense
It allows the devs to make 254 person battles and destructible environments that run on most all modernish computers
But also allows the art department (which I think is 1 guy) to actually make the assests needed for the game.
It is a great example of a team embracing their limitations and making something truly great that no AAA company would even attempt much less pull off.
Compared to Battlefield, which they obviously take inspiration from, Battlebit is averaging a little more players in 24 hours than the vastly more expensive 2042.
Battlefield 2042
https://steamcharts.com/app/1517290
Battlebit
https://steamcharts.com/app/671860
Verses how much each makes verses their costs
https://www.eurogamer.net/ea-admits-battlefield-2042-flopped-but-would-have-been-less-than-10-percent-of-annual-revenue-anyway
https://www.pcgamer.com/battlebit-the-overnight-success-six-years-in-the-making-has-sold-just-shy-of-two-million-in-two-weeks/
Yes AAA games still make way more money, but their bar for success is far higher and a game can still flop despite making profit.
Indie games have such low costs that they can make money hand over fist by selling a 15$ box price.
So we need more MMO devs that think like the Battlebit guys and do more with less.
Or maybe touching some grass?
But this is also why I like GW2 so much, the horizontal progression, and down leveling keep it so that the whole game, from the starter zones to the end game all remain relevant.
For the extremely successful ones it's their career and they make a good deal of money at it. That's a bit more sensible than doing it strictly as a hobby.