Star Citizen layoffs

Slapshot1188

Massively is reporting large scale layoffs at CIG. Seems like folks are being told to immediately (or with short notice) more to Manchester England or lose their jobs.

Curious that the folks who post numbers somehow skipped this news?

Whats the scoop?

Partial quote below:

In addition to game director Todd Papy, CIG also lost lead producer Jake Ross, assistant design director Dan Trufin (whose game profile was changed from “developer” to “backer”), Austin lead designer Dane Kubicka, Austin QA lead Vincent Sinatra, Austin senior QA analyst Andrew Rexroth, and Turbulent producer Annie Bouffard.

Erillion

>>> 

Massively is reporting large scale layoffs at CIG. Seems like folks are being told to immediately (or with short notice) more to Manchester England or lose their jobs.

Curious that the folks who post numbers somehow skipped this news?

>>>>

Massively is reporting "additional layoffs", not "large scale". If you want to stay true to your source.

And - just like you said - its mostly marching orders to the Manchester office. For tax reasons. Which quite a few of the US developers will not want to do.

Turbulent producer Annie Bouffard is quite outspoken and not happy, most of the others are quite low-key and matter of fact in public (if you check their LinkedIn profiles).

"the folks who post numbers" wait for the newest financial information, which is due soon. Especially the mandatory UK financial statement. Because they - well ... post numbers. And dont speculate as much as others.

Given the current situation in the gaming industry in general, it is not really surprising to see additional layoffs. And if you are an accountant: There currently is an opportunity to hire experienced talent at less than usual wages with all these people on the market looking for jobs.

Some on Reddit speculate that with Squadron 42 possibly in the polishing phase as reported, a few positions (such as a Lead Level Designer) are not needed anymore.

Meanwhile life continues in the (Alpha) game and many backers still ....

Have fun

Xiaoki

Waiting for the latest information? Or waiting for the script to parrot?

You don't close down a studio in the middle of development for tax reasons. 

You close down a studio in the middle of development because you can no longer financially support multiple studios.

You also don't lose Game Directors, Lead Producers and Lead Designers to normal industry lay offs.

Also, Squadron 42 was broken up into 3 chapters so you wouldn't start laying off staff in anticipation of Squadron 42 chapter 1 of 3 releasing.

Kyleran

Manchester must have really given some significant tax breaks because normally corporate taxes in states like Texas are not all that high, one reason a lot of Tech companies have development offices there.

Does sound like a soft layoff though as it's pretty rare for any company to ask employees en masse to relocate to another country to keep their jobs, the relo expenses would be enormous and probably eat up any tax savings that might be realized.

I'm sure one day more will be revealed.

Erillion

Xiaoki said:

Waiting for the latest information? Or waiting for the script to parrot?

You don't close down a studio in the middle of development for tax reasons. 

You close down a studio in the middle of development because you can no longer financially support multiple studios.

You also don't lose Game Directors, Lead Producers and Lead Designers to normal industry lay offs.

Also, Squadron 42 was broken up into 3 chapters so you wouldn't start laying off staff in anticipation of Squadron 42 chapter 1 of 3 releasing.

>>> You don't close down a studio >>>

Would be interesting to hear where you got the information that they close down a studio. i have not heard anything about one of the CIG development studios being closed.  Care to elaborate?

Or is this your speculation?

Have fun

Erillion

Kyleran said:

Manchester must have really given some significant tax breaks because normally corporate taxes in states like Texas are not all that high, one reason a lot of Tech companies have development offices there.

Does sound like a soft layoff though as it's pretty rare for any company to ask employees en masse to relocate to another country to keep their jobs, the relo expenses would be enormous and probably eat up any tax savings that might be realized.

I'm sure one day more will be revealed.

>>> some significant tax breaks >>>

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/the-treasury-gave-197m-in-tax-breaks-to-game-studios-last-year-lets-use-some-for-skills-opinion

197 million pound sterling for the UK gaming industry in 2023. Thats approx. 250 million dollar.

Have fun

Xiaoki

Yeah, I'm real sure that they will keep the Montreal studio open after a "mass dismissal".

July 2023 CIG - "We enthusiastically welcome Turbulent to our family of studios"

January 2024 CIG - "Move to England tomorrow or you're fired"

Annie Bouford - "I was gaslighted when I expressed concern about potential layoffs, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, just before the holidays. At the end of January, a mass dismissal, disguised as a "relocation of staff" (when very few could/wanted to move to other countries/continents with little or no notice) occurred.

harken33

Erillion said:

Xiaoki said:

Waiting for the latest information? Or waiting for the script to parrot?

You don't close down a studio in the middle of development for tax reasons. 

You close down a studio in the middle of development because you can no longer financially support multiple studios.

You also don't lose Game Directors, Lead Producers and Lead Designers to normal industry lay offs.

Also, Squadron 42 was broken up into 3 chapters so you wouldn't start laying off staff in anticipation of Squadron 42 chapter 1 of 3 releasing.

>>> You don't close down a studio >>>

Would be interesting to hear where you got the information that they close down a studio. i have not heard anything about one of the CIG development studios being closed.  Care to elaborate?

Or is this your speculation?

Have fun

If you force all the staff from a studio to relocate to another country or be terminated, most of them don’t, does that studio still really exist? Just by relocating in and of itself would they be referred to as say the Austin studio out of Manchester England? 

Information seems to be cropping up online from *current* employees as to whats going on and the numbers involved but will no doubt take some time to filter through.

In fairness those in customer service roles with companies are generally kept out of the loop with these kinds of decisions. Just keep your ear to the ground, hopefully you won’t be one of the folks affected by this.

In any event this would be a great time for the Naked gun meme nothing to see here please disperse.

olepi

"I was gaslighted when I expressed concern about potential layoffs, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, just before the holidays. At the end of January, a mass dismissal, disguised as a "relocation of staff" (when very few could/wanted to move to other countries/continents with little or no notice) occurred. [translated from French]" -- Turbulent Producer

Gaslighted and told you don't know what you are talking about .... sounds familiar.

Imagine working for 8 years on a project as lead designer, and then you get laid off before the product is released. It could be any number of things, including running out of money, having a "toxic workplace", disagreements among senior staff, or the realization that they are over their head technically and won't be able to finish it as they imagined it.

One possible scenario: after missing their release estimate by 10 years and counting, they are running out of money and senior staff is becoming disillusioned leading to a toxic workplace.

CIG can say this isn't a layoff, people can keep their jobs, if they move. A cynical view would say that is an attempt to avoid paying any severance pay.

Tiller

olepi said:

"I was gaslighted when I expressed concern about potential layoffs, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, just before the holidays. At the end of January, a mass dismissal, disguised as a "relocation of staff" (when very few could/wanted to move to other countries/continents with little or no notice) occurred. [translated from French]" -- Turbulent Producer

Gaslighted and told you don't know what you are talking about .... sounds familiar.

Imagine working for 8 years on a project as lead designer, and then you get laid off before the product is released. It could be any number of things, including running out of money, having a "toxic workplace", disagreements among senior staff, or the realization that they are over their head technically and won't be able to finish it as they imagined it.

One possible scenario: after missing their release estimate by 10 years and counting, they are running out of money and senior staff is becoming disillusioned leading to a toxic workplace.

CIG can say this isn't a layoff, people can keep their jobs, if they move. A cynical view would say that is an attempt to avoid paying any severance pay.

Some companies if they aren't complete douches are giving some folks a choice, severance or move. I've even heard that after these moves to keep their jobs, some get laid off a few months later anyways.

MaxBacon

CIG has been downsizing gamedev roles on the US for years now.

At the beggining of 2022 the number of gamedev positions on the US was already on its lowest point since 2015.


Their US locations where they have studios, LA and Austin, are notoriously expensive so it's not surprising to see that if there's a wave focusing cost reduction, positions would move to the EU or Canada.

MaxBacon

Xiaoki said:

You don't close down a studio in the middle of development for tax reasons. 

Also, Squadron 42 was broken up into 3 chapters so you wouldn't start laying off staff in anticipation of Squadron 42 chapter 1 of 3 releasing.

Layoffs are not studios closing, you have seen gigantic waves of layoffs hitting the gaming industry since last year, the studios by general rule do not close. This perception is outright hyperbole. Montreal is a studio that has been getting increasing responsabilities on the gamedev of SC, including of roles that were let go on the US studios on recent times.

Like I just said, CIG has been downsizing US game-dev roles for years now, and while they were doing that, Montreal built a game-dev team for SC on recent years (2020-2021 I think).

Xiaoki said:

Also, Squadron 42 was broken up into 3 chapters so you wouldn't start laying off staff in anticipation of Squadron 42 chapter 1 of 3 releasing.

SQ42 is a project main to the UK studio, is not developed in the US or Canada, and it's not the UK studio where you're hearing about layoffs either.


Also SQ42 being a trilogy means little to what are they immediatly prioritize project-wise, SQ42 and SC are not different codebases alltogether so the devs are by nature bouncing between both projects. That's even more noticeable now with us starting to see features developed primarly on SQ42 for the past years being finally implemented in SC.

Xiaoki

MaxBacon said:

....

Montreal is a studio that has been getting increasing responsabilities on the gamedev of SC, including of roles that were let go on the US studios on recent times.

....
Montreal built a game-dev team for SC on recent years (2020-2021 I think).

Turbulent in Montreal was the studio that CIG gutted.

HERP DERP

CIG bought them in July 2023.

Told them there would be no layoffs in December.

Then had mass dismissals last month.

(Super great management as always Chris).

We know this from people that worked there.

I think I'll trust their word over yours.

KnightFalz

Kyleran said:

Manchester must have really given some significant tax breaks because normally corporate taxes in states like Texas are not all that high, one reason a lot of Tech companies have development offices there.

Does sound like a soft layoff though as it's pretty rare for any company to ask employees en masse to relocate to another country to keep their jobs, the relo expenses would be enormous and probably eat up any tax savings that might be realized.

I'm sure one day more will be revealed.

It is an extreme demand so does very much appear intended to slim down their workforce under the guise of relocation.

MaxBacon

Xiaoki said:

Turbulent in Montreal was the studio that CIG gutted.

HERP DERP

CIG bought them in July 2023.

Told them there would be no layoffs in December.

Then had mass dismissals last month.

(Super great management as always Chris).

We know this from people that worked there.

I think I'll trust their word over yours.

You should consider that Turbulent wasn't an 100% SC studio, they had staff working on other projects and other clients.

So after an aquisition there's likely going to be quite the positions that main company already fills (HR, legal, directors, etc)...  layoffs after the aquisition was something I already expected last year.



Literally if you go by "they told us there wouldn't be layoffs", and then there were layoffs, that's a story I've seen on repeat on recent times...

Eldrach

Well, not surprised. When you just keep throwing money at a project that’s missing deadlines - you’ll eventually start running out of cash.

MaxBacon

KnightFalz said:

It is an extreme demand so does very much appear intended to slim down their workforce under the guise of relocation.

Even if you're cost cutting, and have studios across several countries. Just moving a position to another office that benefits from lower costs/other benefits, is already cutting costs, you don't specifically need to downsize.

This isn't even a first on SC's history, their Austin office was gutted once as they moved teams to other studios, only option was to move. End of the day they went with a layoff wave, but kept growing.

Xiaoki

MaxBacon said:

Xiaoki said:

Turbulent in Montreal was the studio that CIG gutted.

HERP DERP

CIG bought them in July 2023.

Told them there would be no layoffs in December.

Then had mass dismissals last month.

(Super great management as always Chris).

We know this from people that worked there.

I think I'll trust their word over yours.

You should consider that Turbulent wasn't an 100% SC studio, they had staff working on other projects and other clients.

So after an aquisition there's likely going to be quite the positions that main company already fills (HR, legal, directors, etc)...  layoffs after the aquisition was something I already expected last year.



Literally if you go by "they told us there wouldn't be layoffs", and then there were layoffs, that's a story I've seen on repeat on recent times...

Layoffs after an acquisition is one thing but giving all of the employees an ultimatum of "move to a different continent within the next few days or you're fired" is quite another.

MaxBacon

Xiaoki said:

Layoffs after an acquisition is one thing but giving all of the employees an ultimatum of "move to a different continent within the next few days or you're fired" is quite another.

Yes it would. But that's also what did not happen on this case.


You're going by one employee on a turbulent of hundreds (~200) who posted a comment of "mass dismissal", that can be 10 people or so for all we know.  If all (insane comment right there) of even a large chunk of its employees were laid off last month, you would most certainly have heard that from more than one person. lol

ValdemarJ

KnightFalz said:

Kyleran said:

Manchester must have really given some significant tax breaks because normally corporate taxes in states like Texas are not all that high, one reason a lot of Tech companies have development offices there.

Does sound like a soft layoff though as it's pretty rare for any company to ask employees en masse to relocate to another country to keep their jobs, the relo expenses would be enormous and probably eat up any tax savings that might be realized.

I'm sure one day more will be revealed.

It is an extreme demand so does very much appear intended to slim down their workforce under the guise of relocation.

The short window to meet the relocation demand is pretty telling. A couple other large corps have recently pulled the immediate return to office angle as a way to pad their layoffs and avoid severance or compensation packages.

It is funny though watching a game's most ardent supporters do a song and dance to explain why sudden chunky layoffs are fine. This project already moves at a glacial pace. Maybe SIG doesn't care as long as the donations keep rolling in.

Kyleran

Erillion said:

Kyleran said:

Manchester must have really given some significant tax breaks because normally corporate taxes in states like Texas are not all that high, one reason a lot of Tech companies have development offices there.

Does sound like a soft layoff though as it's pretty rare for any company to ask employees en masse to relocate to another country to keep their jobs, the relo expenses would be enormous and probably eat up any tax savings that might be realized.

I'm sure one day more will be revealed.

>>> some significant tax breaks >>>

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/the-treasury-gave-197m-in-tax-breaks-to-game-studios-last-year-lets-use-some-for-skills-opinion

197 million pound sterling for the UK gaming industry in 2023. Thats approx. 250 million dollar.

Have fun

So that's where SC got all the extra money last year. Crowdfunding from the UK taxpayers, stepping up their game in a major way 

But, to your earlier point I see there's 900 former Sony developers available for hire.

Is Manchester far from London?

https://www.eurogamer.net/sony-laying-off-900-playstation-employees-london-studio-to-close-in-its-entirety

lotrlore

Slapshot1188 said:

Massively is reporting large scale layoffs at CIG. Seems like folks are being told to immediately (or with short notice) more to Manchester England or lose their jobs.

Curious that the folks who post numbers somehow skipped this news?

Whats the scoop?

Partial quote below:

In addition to game director Todd Papy, CIG also lost lead producer Jake Ross, assistant design director Dan Trufin (whose game profile was changed from “developer” to “backer”), Austin lead designer Dane Kubicka, Austin QA lead Vincent Sinatra, Austin senior QA analyst Andrew Rexroth, and Turbulent producer Annie Bouffard.

Thanks for the heads up on this - we're working on our article as well. We also reached out to CIG for confirmation/comment, so hopefully we get some sort of definitive answer to what's going on.

Arglebargle

MaxBacon said:

Xiaoki said:

Layoffs after an acquisition is one thing but giving all of the employees an ultimatum of "move to a different continent within the next few days or you're fired" is quite another.

Yes it would. But that's also what did not happen on this case.


You're going by one employee on a turbulent of hundreds (~200) who posted a comment of "mass dismissal", that can be 10 people or so for all we know.  If all (insane comment right there) of even a large chunk of its employees were laid off last month, you would most certainly have heard that from more than one person. lol

Most employees have to navigate the danger of badmouthing your previous employer, no matter how well deserved.  Especially when you are busy hunting for another job after being forced out with an abrupt 'move or else' CIG ultimatum.

I know a bunch of Origin folks who have a very jaundiced view of Chris Roberts.  But they still work in the games industry, so they're not willing to go public.

Tiller

Arglebargle said:

MaxBacon said:

Xiaoki said:

Layoffs after an acquisition is one thing but giving all of the employees an ultimatum of "move to a different continent within the next few days or you're fired" is quite another.

Yes it would. But that's also what did not happen on this case.


You're going by one employee on a turbulent of hundreds (~200) who posted a comment of "mass dismissal", that can be 10 people or so for all we know.  If all (insane comment right there) of even a large chunk of its employees were laid off last month, you would most certainly have heard that from more than one person. lol

Most employees have to navigate the danger of badmouthing your previous employer, no matter how well deserved.  Especially when you are busy hunting for another job after being forced out with an abrupt 'move or else' CIG ultimatum.

I know a bunch of Origin folks who have a very jaundiced view of Chris Roberts.  But they still work in the games industry, so they're not willing to go public.

This is true, if anything leave a review on glassdoor and move on.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm

MaxBacon

Arglebargle said:

Most employees have to navigate the danger of badmouthing your previous employer, no matter how well deserved.  Especially when you are busy hunting for another job after being forced out with an abrupt 'move or else' CIG ultimatum.

I know a bunch of Origin folks who have a very jaundiced view of Chris Roberts.  But they still work in the games industry, so they're not willing to go public.

Nothing to do with what I said.


The other layoffs were known because those employees opently talked about being let go, there is no negativity towards the company on any of them but this specific one at Turbulent.



So yeah that's what I was talking about, the other guy take was that the studio was closing down because of a wave of layoffs.

MaxBacon

Kyleran said:

So that's where SC got all the extra money last year. Crowdfunding from the UK taxpayers, stepping up their game in a major way 

People say that as that's a bad thing for the UK considering how much external investment is made on their country because of it.

The UK is just returning a small part of the dozens of millions going there yearly, on the case of CIG.

Kyleran said:

But, to your earlier point I see there's 900 former Sony developers available for hire.

Is Manchester far from London?

https://www.eurogamer.net/sony-laying-off-900-playstation-employees-london-studio-to-close-in-its-entirety

The vast majority of CIG's open jobs are for the UK office, so it's probable there's an ease to hire positions there, Manchester against London is cheaper to live and work on, so it can be attractive to hire people looking to relocate.

Seems a lot of people wishing to leave cities  like London and their insane living costs these days.



edit. Manchester is about 30% cheaper to live on than London, but it's not close as in viable to travel to/from daily.