I gotta say, I don't agree with the definition of grind as given in the article.
To me, grind has always been the combination of repetition and lack of enjoyment. It has nothing to do with progression - progression is simply a common motivation for enduring the grind.
But if you enjoy the repetition, it's not a grind.
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I do quite a bit of grinding. In its defense, I find it relaxing - are more entertaining than TV.
I found it relaxing solo and fun with a group. Especially if there is a possibility of wiping if people make mistakes.
Thats what made Everquest so enjoyable in its heyday.....Going out with guildies to dangerous areas and getting drops that not everyone could get was quite an accomplishment.....The slower gameplay gave us time to visit and get to know each other a bit...>When I first started playing in early 2000 no one even cared about max levels.
While we're hating on the term 'grind' can we also hate on the meaningless term 'end game'?
End Game was a bad thing because then too many players felt the journey was worthless....Once this started rearing its ugly head, then players wanted powerleveling and other cheats to get right to end game ASAP.
The grind has to have a point. A ton of devs seem to think people like to grind for the sake of it. That couldn't be more wrong. If I am playing any game and realize the grind is just for better gear to grind more I quit. Has nothing to do with attention span or not. It's just simply pointless. I know lots of people who love items to make a character look good but I could give a poo what my character looks like...can it kick ass is all I worry about. I do realize I am one of a few but to me this whole grind for the sake or grind for looks does absolutely nothing for me.
I think for me it all comes down to this. I enjoy "grind" which helps me achieve my goals and abhor grind which holds me back or gatekeeps me from having fun.
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While we're hating on the term 'grind' can we also hate on the meaningless term 'end game'?
End Game was a bad thing because then too many players felt the journey was worthless....Once this started rearing its ugly head, then players wanted powerleveling and other cheats to get right to end game ASAP.
Right.
Like people complaining in a MMORPG about the grind to get to PvP - I always tell them go play Battlefield and be competitive in PvP from the very start. Why would you punish yourself with hundreds of hours of grind to get to the part you enjoy?
So 'grind' is an outdated concept in that there are so many games now that get you to what you want immediately there is no reason to put up with what you don't enjoy. Get what you want from the instant you log in.
If you're 'grinding' then you're in the wrong game.
I think for me it all comes down to this. I enjoy "grind" which helps me achieve my goals and abhor grind which holds me back or gatekeeps me from having fun.
That was essentially the game play of Lineage 2. Didn’t bother me one bit.
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While we're hating on the term 'grind' can we also hate on the meaningless term 'end game'?
Endgame is very real. The problem is that its existence gives players the impression that the rest of the game is not meaningful.
It would be better if levels went away and all the "leveling" content were converted to something with lasting value. There is no reason overworld adventuring shouldn't be a legitimate, worthwhile ongoing activity.
While we're hating on the term 'grind' can we also hate on the meaningless term 'end game'?
Endgame is very real. The problem is that its existence gives players the impression that the rest of the game is not meaningful.
It would be better if levels went away and all the "leveling" content were converted to something with lasting value. There is no reason overworld adventuring shouldn't be a legitimate, worthwhile ongoing activity.
I'd argue that 'endgame' is meaningless in MMORPGS.
The term originated with chess where the game was about to complete. Few remaining pieces in play and either a checkmate or a draw is imminent. MMORPGs don't have the traditional win condition to which the term 'endgame' is meaningful.
How the term is typically used in MMORPGs today is "the content I want to be doing right now".
Exampes: It takes too long to get to endgame in this title. Is the endgame any good in this game? The reason I'm a bit sensitive to the term is that way too many MMORPGs get a loud community of players that insist on changes so that they can get to the part of the game they want to enjoy - and that is usually the part they label "endgame" which is usually max gear out on a PvP battlefield.
These are the same lunatics that come in, crap all over a game, insist on changes, and then leave about 15 minutes after they've destroyed it for everyone else.
So here is a suggestion: Instead of screwing up another title to cater to your 'endgame' how about you just go play a game where the entire game is what you want?
I'm not dogging you out personally - you've been very reasonable and we likely agree. It is just the contexts in which I hear the term 'endgame' is usually from some would be PvP murder hobo upset that he'll have to engage with the other 99% of the content before he can murder noobs in a starter area. He's too damn stupid to realize he's in the wrong game.
Nah I keep hearing it in PVE contexts all the time too, almost always meaning 'after reaching level cap' and almost always in level-based games a-la WoW. For example for PVE it's the point where the players either grind for gear (raids, <gasp> - it's still trendy to hate on those, isn't it?..), or other types of top-level rewards, do some more exploration or leave, depending on whether they are interested in said "endgame".
Right, but I think my critic applies here as well.
Couple of points:
If you don't enjoy the first raid in your journey, why the rush to get to the last raid the game has to offer?
The 'endgame' is a level based game keeps changing as new levels are added so today's 'endgame' is tomorrows 'mid-game'. So it really isn't about the endgame it just about being done.
I really hate where these games are going because I'd get a character leveled and gear and then an expansion would come out making all my stuff crap. It is the most freakin' boring loop imaginable for me.
I think developers are doing poorly, and the player base is awful.
If you don't enjoy the first raid in your journey, why the rush to get to the last raid the game has to offer?
The 'endgame' is a level based game keeps changing as new levels are added so today's 'endgame' is tomorrows 'mid-game'. So it really isn't about the endgame it just about being done.
I really hate where these games are going because I'd get a character leveled and gear and then an expansion would come out making all my stuff crap. It is the most freakin' boring loop imaginable for me.
I think developers are doing poorly, and the player base is awful.
Re your gear point, it's called a treadmill for a reason. Problem is, if you don't make old "top gear" redundant and provide catch ups, you risk segregating your playerbase and alienating new players. Not saying it is good or bad, personally I am indifferent to it.
What I hate most is the content itself being made redundant (your 2nd bullet) and going to waste, which is why I loved GW2's approach.
The fact is though that the levels & treadmill & increasing numbers formula is the most popular one despite its cons. All designs have tradeoffs after all.
Never mind redundant, what about removing content! Well at least MMORPGs rarely seem to have that done to them.
Nah I keep hearing it in PVE contexts all the time too, almost always meaning 'after reaching level cap' and almost always in level-based games a-la WoW. For example for PVE it's the point where the players either grind for gear (raids, <gasp> - it's still trendy to hate on those, isn't it?..), or other types of top-level rewards, do some more exploration or leave, depending on whether they are interested in said "endgame".
Right, but I think my critic applies here as well.
Couple of points:
If you don't enjoy the first raid in your journey, why the rush to get to the last raid the game has to offer?
The 'endgame' is a level based game keeps changing as new levels are added so today's 'endgame' is tomorrows 'mid-game'. So it really isn't about the endgame it just about being done.
I really hate where these games are going because I'd get a character leveled and gear and then an expansion would come out making all my stuff crap. It is the most freakin' boring loop imaginable for me.
I think developers are doing poorly, and the player base is awful.
Your point is well-taken, but I don't think quibbling over terminology serves your argument particularly well. "Endgame" simply has a different meaning in video games than it does in chess. Not a point worth arguing.
Anyway, yes, all MMOs would be better if they could work out a better way to maintain player interest than the repetitive gear grind followed by increasing the level cap yet again.
Create a monster. Add it all over a map. You created grind. Grind comes from copy-paste content. Devs can't economically create 1000 original monsters even in singleplayer games. If you add reward to killing monsters repetitively (exp, cash, drops), you created a grindfest game.
This is why dungeons are fun. Even the same monsters become fun if they aggro from another room. But running the same dungeon multiple times becomes grind too eventually. Devs always add treadmills to their games to keep players playing. But that was always a trap. A mmorpg can only be sustainable if there are enough dynamic systems that keep players engaging with the existing content. Otherwise they dash to the top, hit endgame (or get bored if getting there is too steep) and then quit. But designing those dynamic systems requires brave producers and smart developers. Something we haven't ever seen yet. Instead we saw the birth of gacha addiction machines and horrid monetization schemes. Treadmills for your wallet.
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Thats what made Everquest so enjoyable in its heyday.....Going out with guildies to dangerous areas and getting drops that not everyone could get was quite an accomplishment.....The slower gameplay gave us time to visit and get to know each other a bit...>When I first started playing in early 2000 no one even cared about max levels.
End Game was a bad thing because then too many players felt the journey was worthless....Once this started rearing its ugly head, then players wanted powerleveling and other cheats to get right to end game ASAP.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Like people complaining in a MMORPG about the grind to get to PvP - I always tell them go play Battlefield and be competitive in PvP from the very start. Why would you punish yourself with hundreds of hours of grind to get to the part you enjoy?
So 'grind' is an outdated concept in that there are so many games now that get you to what you want immediately there is no reason to put up with what you don't enjoy. Get what you want from the instant you log in.
If you're 'grinding' then you're in the wrong game.
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The term originated with chess where the game was about to complete.
Few remaining pieces in play and either a checkmate or a draw is imminent.
MMORPGs don't have the traditional win condition to which the term 'endgame' is meaningful.
How the term is typically used in MMORPGs today is "the content I want to be doing right now".
Exampes:
It takes too long to get to endgame in this title.
Is the endgame any good in this game?
The reason I'm a bit sensitive to the term is that way too many MMORPGs get a loud community of players that insist on changes so that they can get to the part of the game they want to enjoy - and that is usually the part they label "endgame" which is usually max gear out on a PvP battlefield.
These are the same lunatics that come in, crap all over a game, insist on changes, and then leave about 15 minutes after they've destroyed it for everyone else.
So here is a suggestion: Instead of screwing up another title to cater to your 'endgame' how about you just go play a game where the entire game is what you want?
I'm not dogging you out personally - you've been very reasonable and we likely agree. It is just the contexts in which I hear the term 'endgame' is usually from some would be PvP murder hobo upset that he'll have to engage with the other 99% of the content before he can murder noobs in a starter area. He's too damn stupid to realize he's in the wrong game.
Couple of points:
- If you don't enjoy the first raid in your journey, why the rush to get to the last raid the game has to offer?
- The 'endgame' is a level based game keeps changing as new levels are added so today's 'endgame' is tomorrows 'mid-game'. So it really isn't about the endgame it just about being done.
I really hate where these games are going because I'd get a character leveled and gear and then an expansion would come out making all my stuff crap. It is the most freakin' boring loop imaginable for me.I think developers are doing poorly, and the player base is awful.
This is why dungeons are fun. Even the same monsters become fun if they aggro from another room. But running the same dungeon multiple times becomes grind too eventually. Devs always add treadmills to their games to keep players playing. But that was always a trap. A mmorpg can only be sustainable if there are enough dynamic systems that keep players engaging with the existing content. Otherwise they dash to the top, hit endgame (or get bored if getting there is too steep) and then quit. But designing those dynamic systems requires brave producers and smart developers. Something we haven't ever seen yet. Instead we saw the birth of gacha addiction machines and horrid monetization schemes. Treadmills for your wallet.