In the case of this game Raph has said there are "plenty of planets." He hasn't come right out and said that a permanent pve planet or set of pve planets is possible.
Yes, of course a permanent set of PvE planets is possible. We fully expect that to be how most of the galaxy works.
Do we even know that there is space combat? I don't recall seeing any.
There is! We don't have spaceships in yet, just spacesuits, but some of the videos and screenshots show it, including some combat.
In which case, and obviously the game is still in development, how does space work if a planet is pve and whoever is in charge of the space around the planet (or solar system or whatever) makes it pvp?
Meaning, can a pve planet/solar systm be surrounded by pvp space? Because if players have to fight their way to safety, "some" players aren't going to like that.
Unless of course the design is such that players "fast travel" to the area they want.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's not that they owe PvE players but rather that they don't want to lose those players and are dishonest about their game. Any form of omission while extolling the benefits of a game that will affect the safety of a PvE player which they are fully aware will affect their decision to play is a lie.
There are all types of lies but lies like this are often carried out with impunity. Raph did it right here where he had the gall to claim he was surprised about the PvP discussion. Like he really didn't think this was an issue? He is really saying that with a straight face after UO?
I've already agreed that the dishonesty is unacceptable.
I cannot speak for Raph, but I personally find some of the discussion surprising in that there are segments of the population that don't just have a preference, they don't want the style of play they dislike happening anywhere in their world at all.
I find it surprising because the debate with UO was settled rather definitively over twenty years ago.
Which would be why we stated very bluntly when we announced, that a) we were tackling PvE first b) have a philosophy of only opt-in PvP and c) haven't done much design work on PvP but it's not the priority.
So to have all the discussion be about hypothetically luring people into a gankbox is just... weird.
I recognize that an awful lot of sandboxes have come (and mostly gone) saying that they wanted to recapture the spirit of UO and then proceed to jump headfirst into open PvP and relearn old, painful lessons. We aren't them.
I wrote my take on the PvP debate quite a long time ago, with SWG, in an article written in 2002. My opinion since then has not changed:
I do not want to ever disappoint people in that way again. People will
come to SWG for those things, and I do not want them to discover that
they cannot stay and enjoy them because the very freedoms which allow
those cool, innovative, exciting features, also allow d00dspeaking
giggly jerks to dance roughshod jigs on their virtual corpses.
As a result of the above philosophy, SWG had PvP bounty hunting, guild wars, a faction PvP system, and so on. But it did not have any sort of major PK issue like the UO vets here are worried about.
Pretty sure Raph was on record as opposing flagging on SWG, wanting to 'work it out otherwise'.
Nope, in fact I designed the TEF system in Galaxies personally.
My only issue with flagging in SWG was that it ruined immersion to have rebel scum jump you and then a few minutes later be dancing around you but they were "covert" so you couldn't fight them.
If you do opt for flags I hope you make them have a long time before you can change them.
But I will always believe zone based rules are better because they are clear and simple. You either can or cannot fight there.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's not that they owe PvE players but rather that they don't want to lose those players and are dishonest about their game. Any form of omission while extolling the benefits of a game that will affect the safety of a PvE player which they are fully aware will affect their decision to play is a lie.
There are all types of lies but lies like this are often carried out with impunity. Raph did it right here where he had the gall to claim he was surprised about the PvP discussion. Like he really didn't think this was an issue? He is really saying that with a straight face after UO?
I've already agreed that the dishonesty is unacceptable.
I cannot speak for Raph, but I personally find some of the discussion surprising in that there are segments of the population that don't just have a preference, they don't want the style of play they dislike happening anywhere in their world at all.
I find it surprising because the debate with UO was settled rather definitively over twenty years ago.
It's not that they owe PvE players but rather that they don't want to lose those players and are dishonest about their game. Any form of omission while extolling the benefits of a game that will affect the safety of a PvE player which they are fully aware will affect their decision to play is a lie.
There are all types of lies but lies like this are often carried out with impunity. Raph did it right here where he had the gall to claim he was surprised about the PvP discussion. Like he really didn't think this was an issue? He is really saying that with a straight face after UO?
I've already agreed that the dishonesty is unacceptable.
I cannot speak for Raph, but I personally find some of the discussion surprising in that there are segments of the population that don't just have a preference, they don't want the style of play they dislike happening anywhere in their world at all.
I find it surprising because the debate with UO was settled rather definitively over twenty years ago.
And you've done nothing but TALK since then.
Hmm, pretty sure Raph's been making a living from gaming for a very long time, UO wasn't his only accomplishment in the field.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm, pretty sure Raph's been making a living from gaming for a very long time, UO wasn't his only accomplishment in the field.
Still waiting to hear what success he's had after being tossed off SWG. I remember some sims wannabe "virtual world" that went nowhere fast, if that's what you're referring to. I guess getting paid for interviews by gaming sites is "making a living from gaming". Oh, guess we can add selling books and blogs to fanbois, too. lol
The decision to be a PvE player is a relatively new phenomenon.
WTF you even talking about here? Are you seriously trying to tell me that back in the day PVP was all there was?
I could care less what your grandpa's grandpa's grandpa's ........... was doing 10k years ago. Your grandpa was playing da pvp with his bare feet kicking all the rocks LOL. OooooK BRO LOL.
In todays world in the MMO game space, games with PVE servers dominate.
Nobody is even saying they cant have PVP servers, all I am saying is MMO devs that dont give the dominant playerbase PVE servers are absolute morons. They are passing on EZ money.
Its even more stupid when you think of how many go out of business without trying to capture this crowd with PVE servers.
The decision to be a PvE player is a relatively new phenomenon.
Only in the sense that video games are a relatively new phenomenon. Single-player games are inherently PVE-only.
I mean we had UO then Everquest. I am not talking about the text based MMORPGs. So in the MMORPG space it is not a relatively new phenomenon. Plus if you are talking about shooters those games like Unreal Tournament, Team Fotress or Quake are not MMORPGs.
I am perfectly happy for PvP to co-exist with PvE but only if it is designed in such a way that it cannot impact me unless I choose to participate. Calling it "opt-in" is still much too broad. The problem isn't just the other players, there are developer practices that cause just as much if not more grief.
Do your class/skill designers claim that the same set of skills can be used by both PvE and PvP modes? They're lying or incompetent.
Do your area designers put PvE objectives inside PvP zones? If I need that objective then avoidance isn't going to be an effective "opt-out".
Do your area designers decide to "sweeten the pot" and provide exclusive or bonus crafting resources in PvP zones?
Are the efficient travel routes bottlenecked by PvP zones while the PvE only routes are significantly more tedious to traverse?
--
I get that it's still very early in the design so things are still fluid. Again, not my first rodeo. Handwaving it away with a "Trust Us!" is about the least assuring thing you could say.
I am not the type of person to go on campaigns to change things. Heaven forbid I can find another game to play. I'm just saying I will simply walk away but it is not right to claim the players buy games knowing full well what type of interactions will be unacceptable to them. You cannot foresee every negative impact and I also agree that developers also cannot predict all the player behaviour that can lead to problems.
However if it is not too much to ask I hope this game will not hold out unrealistic expectations to the PvE player who is averse to PvP in the hope of drawing more players.
You're an optimist @Scot , that only works with players who can accept some form of PvP. No amount of safeguards unless it is flagging is safe enough for one who has no wish to engage in any type of PvP. In the case of @Brainy only a separate server might satisfy him. For me flagging is enough. Flagging gives me a lot of control.
To me flagging has been abused in the past, but I get the feeling that Ralph is aware of how that's been done. I don't see this as the new NW, where developers didn't seem to understand gamers or the history of PvP in MMOs. What I am not sure is whether the safeguards he puts in will stop any issues.
To me PvP zones on the "borders" are the best way to have PvP and the best way to safeguard PvE players. But clearly SR is not going to be that sort of game. That's OK, as long as the flagging is watertight.
I heard a rumor that you and the other UO developers would sit around on Friday evenings getting drunk on Heineken while watching live streams of innocent UO players getting slaughtered. You'd laugh until you passed out.
Also, that you coined the phrase "more salt, Carebears!"
I heard a rumor that you and the other UO developers would sit around on Friday evenings getting drunk on Heineken while watching live streams of innocent UO players getting slaughtered. You'd laugh until you passed out.
Also, that you coined the phrase "more salt, Carebears!"
For shame!
I heard a rumor that Raph was behind the famous assassination of Lord British.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I heard a rumor that you and the other UO developers would sit around on Friday evenings getting drunk on Heineken while watching live streams of innocent UO players getting slaughtered. You'd laugh until you passed out.
Also, that you coined the phrase "more salt, Carebears!"
For shame!
I heard a rumor that Raph was behind the famous assassination of Lord British.
He'll deny it, but when black-out drunk how would he know?
Just wanna pop in and say, first, thanks @Raph for coming here and talking to us. I appreciate you devoting some time to us neandethals!
Second, Star's Reach has developed more discussion on this forum that just about any game for at least 5 years, certainly since new world. I appreciate it just for that!
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I heard a rumor that you and the other UO developers would sit around on Friday evenings getting drunk on Heineken while watching live streams of innocent UO players getting slaughtered. You'd laugh until you passed out.
Also, that you coined the phrase "more salt, Carebears!"
For shame!
Ok that was pretty funny, legit just spit out my drink lol.
I wonder why developers don't hang out with us more?
Pretty sure he has thick skin lol. In the past Raph has jumped into discussions on various games sites. I remember back in the day on an alt MMORPG site called RLMMO he shared with us some of his design ideas that never made it into SWG. I guess he hated the idea of player Jedi and wanted them to be a perma death character, and also shared how Lucas Films was really strict on sharing anything from Ep1 before it's release, like they only had the existing movie trailers as everyone, and existing lore for art direction in the game.
I wonder why developers don't hang out with us more?
Pretty sure he has thick skin lol. In the past Raph has jumped into discussions on various games sites. I remember back in the day on an alt MMORPG site called RLMMO he shared with us some of his design ideas that never made it into SWG. I guess he hated the idea of player Jedi and wanted them to be a perma death character, and also shared how Lucas Films was really strict on sharing anything from Ep1 before it's release, like they only had the existing movie trailers as everyone, and existing lore for art direction in the game.
I think it depends on the developer, some like direct engagement more than others, also the medium is important. If any of you saw those early Star Citizen videos with Chris Roberts he was a block of wood under the camera. I did feel sorry for him, somebody should have told him to give it a miss.
Posting is far less stressful, you do not have to perform. I can remember one well known RPG writer who has done stuff from the early days of DnD being the GM for a livestream. He felt the need to not allow any silences, which when you talk do happen. It was quite strange to see.
I wonder why developers don't hang out with us more?
Pretty sure he has thick skin lol. In the past Raph has jumped into discussions on various games sites. I remember back in the day on an alt MMORPG site called RLMMO he shared with us some of his design ideas that never made it into SWG. I guess he hated the idea of player Jedi and wanted them to be a perma death character, and also shared how Lucas Films was really strict on sharing anything from Ep1 before it's release, like they only had the existing movie trailers as everyone, and existing lore for art direction in the game.
I think it depends on the developer, some like direct engagement more than others, also the medium is important. If any of you saw those early Star Citizen videos with Chris Roberts he was a block of wood under the camera. I did feel sorry for him, somebody should have told him to give it a miss.
Posting is far less stressful, you do not have to perform. I can remember one well known RPG writer who has done stuff from the early days of DnD being the GM for a livestream. He felt the need to not allow any silences, which when you talk do happen. It was quite strange to see.
Just wanna pop in and say, first, thanks @Raph for coming here and talking to us. I appreciate you devoting some time to us neandethals!
Second, Star's Reach has developed more discussion on this forum that just about any game for at least 5 years, certainly since new world. I appreciate it just for that!
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you do opt for flags I hope you make them have a long time before you can change them.
But I will always believe zone based rules are better because they are clear and simple. You either can or cannot fight there.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
WTF you even talking about here? Are you seriously trying to tell me that back in the day PVP was all there was?
I could care less what your grandpa's grandpa's grandpa's ........... was doing 10k years ago. Your grandpa was playing da pvp with his bare feet kicking all the rocks LOL. OooooK BRO LOL.
In todays world in the MMO game space, games with PVE servers dominate.
Nobody is even saying they cant have PVP servers, all I am saying is MMO devs that dont give the dominant playerbase PVE servers are absolute morons. They are passing on EZ money.
Its even more stupid when you think of how many go out of business without trying to capture this crowd with PVE servers.
To me PvP zones on the "borders" are the best way to have PvP and the best way to safeguard PvE players. But clearly SR is not going to be that sort of game. That's OK, as long as the flagging is watertight.
Also, that you coined the phrase "more salt, Carebears!"
For shame!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Ok that was pretty funny, legit just spit out my drink lol.
Pretty sure he has thick skin lol. In the past Raph has jumped into discussions on various games sites. I remember back in the day on an alt MMORPG site called RLMMO he shared with us some of his design ideas that never made it into SWG. I guess he hated the idea of player Jedi and wanted them to be a perma death character, and also shared how Lucas Films was really strict on sharing anything from Ep1 before it's release, like they only had the existing movie trailers as everyone, and existing lore for art direction in the game.
Posting is far less stressful, you do not have to perform. I can remember one well known RPG writer who has done stuff from the early days of DnD being the GM for a livestream. He felt the need to not allow any silences, which when you talk do happen. It was quite strange to see.
I stand corrected.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
All's I can say is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVuIVP6Pef8
Two weeks ago I was a 71 year old, fat, balding, arthritic old guy.
Then I saw this post and now I'm...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Hv09mrLvemg
My zits have cleared up, too.
Once upon a time....