I am a bit surprised to see so much focus on the PvP thing, when it's really not core to the game...
For many of us this is not our first rodeo. "It has PvP" without some pretty firm details on how that mode is segregated from PvE activities puts your game squarely in the "don't get your hopes us" category.
I'm rather surprised this confuses you. People not interested in non-consensual PvP don't want to have their time wasted by somebody else looking to get their jollies off on ruining your night.
But the government! is still a bit too vague particularly when there are no details on how planets are acquired or maintained and if they need to be defended from PvP'ers
I'll restate what we have said already:
PvE first
Any PvP will be completely opt-in
It would be zone-based, so there can be areas with and without, clearly signposted outside
A guild can control a planet and set rules. We haven't gone into details on this and won't just yet, but things like banning people would be on the list.
Bottom line: the goal is that people not interested in non-consensual PvP should be safe.
The real question is what, if any game mechanics or rewards will be used to "entice" players to opt into PVP?
Will players suffer from a degraded experience (no access to valuable resources is the usual limitation) should they decide to opt out of PVP? (Outside of not being able to visit said areas of course)
There are several MMOs where players could opt out of PVP such as Albion Online or BDO but user has to accept some pretty severe limitations on progression or wealth.
Raph can respond if he comes back but from what I have seen...there might be specific resources on a planet that allows PvP. Maybe that resource can also be found a far distance away on a non-PvP planet. The idea is to create an actual market and economy where someone can become a trader that buys in one location and sells in another.
I think the big "fear" I have seen is that someone who is PvP averse settles on a planet and builds a homestead and then the government that controls it changes their mind and makes it a PvP zone.
I think the vast majority of the time you can avoid PvP if you want and the worst situation is that you'd have to travel far to get some resource or buy it at a higher price on a market. But since the whole game is kind of based on emergent gameplay I think people really have to understand that the game is putting a ton of power into the hands of the players and shit will happen. He even gives the example of causing a cliff to collapse on a player's home. If a player absolutely and positively cannot stand the idea that something like this has a (slight) possibility of happening to them, then they should really save themselves frustration and anger.
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(Raph) : But broadly speaking, the plan is that PvP is zone based. If you want your planet to be PvP, the planetary government players set up can vote for it to be that way.
That sounds fine unless they can also vote to change it. You settle on a PvE planet, suddenly a band of griefers manages to "change the rules" after you've built your dream castle. Now it's a PvP planet and you will be ganked and driven off.
(Raph) : But broadly speaking, the plan is that PvP is zone based. If you want your planet to be PvP, the planetary government players set up can vote for it to be that way.
That sounds fine unless they can also vote to change it. You settle on a PvE planet, suddenly a band of griefers manages to "change the rules" after you've built your dream castle. Now it's a PvP planet and you will be ganked and driven off.
That is in essence just another form of PvP.
Agreed, we have to prevent that.
I hope you don't "prevent it" but rather make change possible with the acquiescence of the citizens. Not 50%+1, but maybe if 70% want to change the "Constitution" they can do so. I think having some kind of Founding Documents like a Constitution would be a very, very cool feature. That Constitution could consist of various toggles for things like how much land a person can own, tax rates, what visitors can/cannot do, and yes, even PvP.
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I hope you don't "prevent it" but rather make change possible with the acquiescence of the citizens. Not 50%+1, but maybe if 70% want to change the "Constitution" they can do so. I think having some kind of Founding Documents like a Constitution would be a very, very cool feature. That Constitution could consist of various toggles for things like how much land a person can own, tax rates, what visitors can/cannot do, and yes, even PvP.
That doesn't sound like "suddenly a band of griefers stole your world." I agree that the band of griefers doing that shouldn't happen.
I am even good with a planet saying "look, we're not democratic, this is our world and our guild leader runs it, the end." We have more worlds. It really does change everything about how we design MMOs.
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I liked how Ryzom put the absolute best mats in a PvP zone. It was hard enough so that no single player had a chance, the PvE was too hard in the Prime Roots. A grp was needed to even harvest there. And it was a PvP zone too.
You wanna have the best lvl 250 weapon? Your guild had to help you make it. All items are player made, somebody in your guild had to go into the PR to get the mats to make it.
I liked how Ryzom put the absolute best mats in a PvP zone. It was hard enough so that no single player had a chance, the PvE was too hard in the Prime Roots. A grp was needed to even harvest there. And it was a PvP zone too.
You wanna have the best lvl 250 weapon? Your guild had to help you make it. All items are player made, somebody in your guild had to go into the PR to get the mats to make it.
And all 200 of Ryzom's lifetime of players love it.
I feel CCP has had to walk the very thin line between catering to the desires of players who want to destroy (PVP) vs those who with to build (PVE).
In their cases both types of players are paying customers so if they lean in too hard one way or another in their designs they risk of losing subs.
Over the years I personally think they leaned a bit too hard towards the PVP side.
CCP is rather unrepentant about EVE's PvP focus. A significant majority of their player population lives in Hi Sec and they've (desperately) tried every trick in the book to get them out.
They did eventually have to make newb ganking in the starter systems something that warranted account strikes. If memory serves that was around the time of the sale so they probably needed to shore up their retention metrics.
I'd suggest exploring a solution where "blood stained" players (PVP types) have an additional risk in the PvE portions of the map, such that they don't want to go there and have items they need from there for which they must trade. There would be nothing stopping them from going there, it would just be riskier. <-- this illustrates my point, I think, and why I've a hangup with some PvP area designs.
One could say that "raiding" or "locking items" behind "forced PvE" is the equivalent. Some PvP folks simply hate the concept of "wasting" hours killing mindless PvE mobs in the hope that some important item for their build will drop. But if they want to play a game that has this mechanism, they have to suck it up and do it.
I personally think it's all ludicrous. We simply have to stop expecting every game to be the perfect fit for every player. Its a recipe for disaster.
That's not what is happening, the bulk of players think the game must be made for them not everyone. It's the studios that try to make the game for everyone. As I think MMORPG's are best as gestalt games with every bell and whistle I want the PvP and PvE, the raids, the housing you name it, but if that is not implemented well it can be a disaster.
Nah, PvP is like yeast in bread or creamer in tea or coffee. You can't separate them even if you have "safe zones". PvP affects balance, loot distribution, and everything else about a game. Albion has "safe zones" with grade Z mats in them. Have to go to the PvP zones for good mats. It's smoke and mirrors to get players engaged in content they don't want to participate in.
Since they've announced this will be a PvP game, the only logical choice PvE players have is to not play at all. Find another game. This isn't 2001. There are so many choices out there for us. Don't waste time on games that can't be honest about what they are and are not.
You are using a game with a poor PvP and PvE setup, PvE players should have no reason to go to PvP zones. DAOC was far better, but not perfect. You are quite right that we can have separate games, but the strength of the MMORPG genre is the different kind of gameplay. Otherwise MMORPG's find it hard to stand up to everything from MMOFPS, Battle Royal, ARPG, RPG to MOBA and so on. These more defined genres are always going to be better at their speciality, MMORPG's need to be fully rounded to stand out against them.
The real question is what, if any game mechanics or rewards will be used to "entice" players to opt into PVP?
Will players suffer from a degraded experience (no access to valuable resources is the usual limitation) should they decide to opt out of PVP? (Outside of not being able to visit said areas of course)
There are several MMOs where players could opt out of PVP such as Albion Online or BDO but user has to accept some pretty severe limitations on progression or wealth.
And there's the rub, the balance of rewards. You start by making sure nothing you earn in PvE is the same as what you earn in PvP. So I would not let PvP even give you leveling xp, that's what PvE is for.
Weapons and armour for PvE are useless in PvP, you have to buy some cheap basic PvP gear and then earn it through kill rewards and objectives. If you want to do that on the cheap, make it look like the same gear but it slots into the PvP part of the "character sheet".
Buffs from taking land in PvP help you in PvP, buffs from whatever in PvE help you in PvE. Crafting the same etc, just don't cross the streams.
I hope you don't "prevent it" but rather make change possible with the acquiescence of the citizens. Not 50%+1, but maybe if 70% want to change the "Constitution" they can do so. I think having some kind of Founding Documents like a Constitution would be a very, very cool feature. That Constitution could consist of various toggles for things like how much land a person can own, tax rates, what visitors can/cannot do, and yes, even PvP.
That doesn't sound like "suddenly a band of griefers stole your world." I agree that the band of griefers doing that shouldn't happen.
I am even good with a planet saying "look, we're not democratic, this is our world and our guild leader runs it, the end." We have more worlds. It really does change everything about how we design MMOs.
I'd say for your game one of the most important features is to allow users to place a "Founding Stone" on a planet and give that stone a name. A new player joining the world should be able to look up the name of that stone and spawn there - that way guild members can find each other quickly and easily.
Perhaps players can join the guild in the "lobby" and the founding stones for that guild then become available as spawn locations (that way randos cannot pick your town if you don't allow it).
Nothing kills the buzz like joining a game with friends and they're 1,000,000 light years from the newbie spawn zone and you have to build a ship and grind 15 levels so you can finally make the 3 hrs. trip to get out to where they're at....
I'd suggest exploring a solution where "blood stained" players (PVP types) have an additional risk in the PvE portions of the map, such that they don't want to go there and have items they need from there for which they must trade. There would be nothing stopping them from going there, it would just be riskier. <-- this illustrates my point, I think, and why I've a hangup with some PvP area designs.
One could say that "raiding" or "locking items" behind "forced PvE" is the equivalent. Some PvP folks simply hate the concept of "wasting" hours killing mindless PvE mobs in the hope that some important item for their build will drop. But if they want to play a game that has this mechanism, they have to suck it up and do it.
I personally think it's all ludicrous. We simply have to stop expecting every game to be the perfect fit for every player. Its a recipe for disaster.
That's not what is happening, the bulk of players think the game must be made for them not everyone. It's the studios that try to make the game for everyone. As I think MMORPG's are best as gestalt games with every bell and whistle I want the PvP and PvE, the raids, the housing you name it, but if that is not implemented well it can be a disaster.
The top Reddit post on Tarisland when I typed this was quite literally some guy asking if he could play the game and only PvP and not be “forced” into running dungeons and PvE.
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Scot said: These more defined genres are always going to be better at their speciality, MMORPG's need to be fully rounded to stand out against them.
Cant separate PVP and PVE LOL. Have to force PVE'ers to be targets griefed by PVP.?
Yeah except dont look at games like FF14 or Wow or ESO. Nothing to see here. Those were just complete flukes right? Even DAOC and eventually UO separated PVP out with PVE servers.
I am sure you want to tell us now which well rounded games that forces PVE'ers under the boot of PVP players have done so great? I want to know which game you are referring too where PVP players get all the best rewards via "RISK" in PVP.
I am sure you are going to name something that hasnt completely failed right?
I'd suggest exploring a solution where "blood stained" players (PVP types) have an additional risk in the PvE portions of the map, such that they don't want to go there and have items they need from there for which they must trade. There would be nothing stopping them from going there, it would just be riskier. <-- this illustrates my point, I think, and why I've a hangup with some PvP area designs.
One could say that "raiding" or "locking items" behind "forced PvE" is the equivalent. Some PvP folks simply hate the concept of "wasting" hours killing mindless PvE mobs in the hope that some important item for their build will drop. But if they want to play a game that has this mechanism, they have to suck it up and do it.
I personally think it's all ludicrous. We simply have to stop expecting every game to be the perfect fit for every player. Its a recipe for disaster.
That's not what is happening, the bulk of players think the game must be made for them not everyone. It's the studios that try to make the game for everyone. As I think MMORPG's are best as gestalt games with every bell and whistle I want the PvP and PvE, the raids, the housing you name it, but if that is not implemented well it can be a disaster.
The top Reddit post on Tarisland when I typed this was quite literally some guy asking if he could play the game and only PvP and not be “forced” into running dungeons and PvE.
Back in Lineage 2 my alliance was waiting to do some sort of raid and several of the members were complaining they didn't want to raid or pve just wanted to pvp.
"Can we hurry this up so I can get to the game I want to play?" I guess "forced pve" is a thing now.
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Scot said: These more defined genres are always going to be better at their speciality, MMORPG's need to be fully rounded to stand out against them.
Cant separate PVP and PVE LOL. Have to force PVE'ers to be targets griefed by PVP.?
Yeah except dont look at games like FF14 or Wow or ESO. Nothing to see here. Those were just complete flukes right? Even DAOC and eventually UO separated PVP out with PVE servers.
I am sure you want to tell us now which well rounded games that forces PVE'ers under the boot of PVP players have done so great? I want to know which game you are referring too where PVP players get all the best rewards via "RISK" in PVP.
I am sure you are going to name something that hasnt completely failed right?
All those games (other than Dark Age of Camelot, not sure what that's categorized as) are theme park games. Well made theme park games but dull as every other theme park game.
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Scot said: These more defined genres are always going to be better at their speciality, MMORPG's need to be fully rounded to stand out against them.
Cant separate PVP and PVE LOL. Have to force PVE'ers to be targets griefed by PVP.?
Yeah except dont look at games like FF14 or Wow or ESO. Nothing to see here. Those were just complete flukes right? Even DAOC and eventually UO separated PVP out with PVE servers.
I am sure you want to tell us now which well rounded games that forces PVE'ers under the boot of PVP players have done so great? I want to know which game you are referring too where PVP players get all the best rewards via "RISK" in PVP.
I am sure you are going to name something that hasnt completely failed right?
All those games (other than Dark Age of Camelot, not sure what that's categorized as) are theme park games. Well made theme park games but dull as every other theme park game.
Not to mention that the FFA PvP (Morderd and Andred) servers AND the Co-Op PvE (Gaheris?) were ultimately FAR less popular than the main (mixed) servers.
It's not surprising that when you cut out PvP from a game that is literally DESIGNED around 3 realms at war, it's going to be a lesser experience. Same with the FFA PvP where you just killed your own realm. I did ultimately try both servers, and had some fun, but at the end of the day both were far less successful than the main game.
Many old school DAoC players will tell you flat out that Trials of Atlantis is what killed DAoC. Because it added all these new items that required you to spend a very large amount of time running PvE content to acquire and level them up. I think there is some validity to that, but it's not the whole story. In a game like DAoC you eventually can get bored sieging the relic keep for the 500th time... So they definitely needed new content. Not sure that ToA was the right content though.
Here is a link to an old MMORPG news post on how the company realized the made a mistake with ToA and were trying to launch a new server type that excluded it.
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Why do people get so fired up over something that is so far away and we have no control of?
Is it really being "fired up" or actually discussing mmorpg's? Of which we haven't had a lot.
I'm up for discussing anything but it's nice to actually have an interesting game to discuss. It's certainly not cookie cutter as far as the worlds and the server set-up so it's a bit of a breath of fresh air.
Or we can go back to discussing monetization and skins for some upcoming dlc.
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Scot said: These more defined genres are always going to be better at their speciality, MMORPG's need to be fully rounded to stand out against them.
Cant separate PVP and PVE LOL. Have to force PVE'ers to be targets griefed by PVP.?
Yeah except dont look at games like FF14 or Wow or ESO. Nothing to see here. Those were just complete flukes right? Even DAOC and eventually UO separated PVP out with PVE servers.
I am sure you want to tell us now which well rounded games that forces PVE'ers under the boot of PVP players have done so great? I want to know which game you are referring too where PVP players get all the best rewards via "RISK" in PVP.
I am sure you are going to name something that hasnt completely failed right?
Read my other post on this page, PvP and PvE are best in a MMORPG when you keep them separate. Just because there is PvP in a MMO should not mean the PvE player feels he is missing out if he does not do it. That's the whole point.
Scot said: These more defined genres are always going to be better at their speciality, MMORPG's need to be fully rounded to stand out against them.
Cant separate PVP and PVE LOL. Have to force PVE'ers to be targets griefed by PVP.?
Yeah except dont look at games like FF14 or Wow or ESO. Nothing to see here. Those were just complete flukes right? Even DAOC and eventually UO separated PVP out with PVE servers.
I am sure you want to tell us now which well rounded games that forces PVE'ers under the boot of PVP players have done so great? I want to know which game you are referring too where PVP players get all the best rewards via "RISK" in PVP.
I am sure you are going to name something that hasnt completely failed right?
Read my other post on this page, PvP and PvE are best in a MMORPG when you keep them separate. Just because there is PvP in a MMO should not mean the PvE player feels he is missing out if he does not do it. That's the whole point.
I think your are wrong. I think it CAN be best if it's separate. I think it CAN also be best when combined. DAoC is the perfect example of a game that was FAR better when PvP and PvE were combined. There is not one right answer.
I will however turn around your last statement again "Just because there is PvP in a MMO should not mean the PvE player feels he is missing out if he does not do it". Do you also feel the same way about "forced" PvE? That a PvP player should not "miss out" if he doesn't do the PvE like 3 hours 40 man raids? Should any and all resources, items, accomplishments be able to be gained via PvP only?
And if your answer is YES, then why in the world have two totally separate games under one name?
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I think your are wrong. I think it CAN be best if it's separate. I think it CAN also be best when combined. DAoC is the perfect example of a game that was FAR better when PvP and PvE were combined. There is not one right answer.
I will however turn around your last statement again "Just because there is PvP in a MMO should not mean the PvE player feels he is missing out if he does not do it". Do you also feel the same way about "forced" PvE? That a PvP player should not "miss out" if he doesn't do the PvE like 3 hours 40 man raids? Should any and all resources, items, accomplishments be able to be gained via PvP only?
And if your answer is YES, then why in the world have two totally separate games under one name?
If we have players so nailed to the PvP mast, allow me to suggest MMORPG's may not be for them. If we have players so nailed to the PvE mast allow me to suggest MMORPGs may not be for them. MMORPG's are bigger than that.
It all depends on what you mean by "combined", for me all the players are in the same world, they only separate when some go to the PvP zones, just like DAOC. If PvE is such an anathema to you then head to the PvP zones.
Neither PvP or PvE "miss out". What use is raid gear to a PvP guy, like I mentioned armour and weapons found in PvE are of no use in PvP and visa versa. You do your PvE or your PvP because you want to do it. In fact on reflection, doing PvE raises your PvE level while doing PvP raises your PvP level.
The reason to have such totally separate gameplay in one game is that many of us like doing both. In that vein I find housing and crafting boring, but I would not say "these should be in separate games". Following on from that I play in guilds, I don't expect everybody in the guild to just do what I want to do. If someone needs to go on that quest to get an uber table and chair for their house, we go even though I think it's daft.
MMORPG's can be the epitome of collegiate gaming and death matches, both in gameplay, solo players, groups and guilds.
I think your are wrong. I think it CAN be best if it's separate. I think it CAN also be best when combined. DAoC is the perfect example of a game that was FAR better when PvP and PvE were combined. There is not one right answer.
I will however turn around your last statement again "Just because there is PvP in a MMO should not mean the PvE player feels he is missing out if he does not do it". Do you also feel the same way about "forced" PvE? That a PvP player should not "miss out" if he doesn't do the PvE like 3 hours 40 man raids? Should any and all resources, items, accomplishments be able to be gained via PvP only?
And if your answer is YES, then why in the world have two totally separate games under one name?
If we have players so nailed to the PvP mast, allow me to suggest MMORPG's may not be for them. If we have players so nailed to the PvE mast allow me to suggest MMORPGs may not be for them. MMORPG's are bigger than that.
It all depends on what you mean by "combined", for me all the players are in the same world, they only separate when some go to the PvP zones, just like DAOC. If PvE is such an anathema to you then head to the PvP zones.
Neither PvP or PvE "miss out". What use is raid gear to a PvP guy, like I mentioned armour and weapons found in PvE are of no use in PvP and visa versa. You do your PvE or your PvP because you want to do it. In fact on reflection, doing PvE raises your PvE level while doing PvP raises your PvP level.
The reason to have such totally separate gameplay in one game is that many of us like doing both. In that vein I find housing and crafting boring, but I would not say "these should be in separate games". Following on from that I play in guilds, I don't expect everybody in the guild to just do what I want to do. If someone needs to go on that quest to get an uber table and chair for their house, we go even though I think it's daft.
MMORPG's can be the epitome of collegiate gaming, both in gameplay, solo players, groups and guilds.
"If we have players so nailed to the PvP mast, allow me to suggest MMORPG's may not be for them. If we have players so nailed to the PvE mast allow me to suggest MMORPGs may not be for them. MMORPG's are bigger than that."
Again, I think that is wrong. There ARE games that cater to folks that want 100% PvP. There ARE games that cater to folks that want 100% PvE (Think games like Ember's Adrift). These are MMORPGs. And those folks rightfully have a home. It's no less valid than someone who likes a mix. What I think is a mistake is going into a game that has both PvP and PvE and expecting to never be touched by one or the other.
Did you play DAoC?
It wasn't just separate zones. It was a fully integrated game. Your success in PvP quite LITERALLY had an impact on people doing PvE. You got buffs which made a huge difference. You opened up Darkness Falls which had (at the time) some of the best gear AND had some raid level PvE content as you went lower and lower. You could find loot in Darkness Falls that crafters needed. But even if you just went into Darkness Falls for PvE you could still face PvP at any time. Some left over enemies would be skulking around. Or an enemy could succeed on the Frontiers and close your access to Darkness Falls and open it up for their own players who would sweep in and hunt you.
The best PvE experience gain was found in places like Darkness Falls or in the Frontiers. It was a fully integrated game.
You will never convince me that having two totally separate games under one roof is the best way. Have a Pure PvE game? Sure. Have a Pure PvP game? Sure. Have an integrated PvP and PvE game? Sure. Have 2 totally separate PvE and PvP games on the same server? No...
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
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I liked the PvP in PotBS a lot. I played as Freetrader and most of my time was setting up industries in ports, hauling stuff from port to port, and making ship parts and ammo. All 100% PvE.
The other factions could start working on a port to put it in contention and a red circle appeared around the port. If you enter the red zone you are open to PvP. You can always avoid PvP but what if they put your favorite port with a bunch of your buildings into contention? We used to get a fleet together to escort the haulers in and out. I made cannon ammo so it was important to our guild to get it.
PvP is fun if you can choose when and why to do it. I think a mix of PvE and PvP, along with crafting, housing, etc, makes the best games.
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I think the big "fear" I have seen is that someone who is PvP averse settles on a planet and builds a homestead and then the government that controls it changes their mind and makes it a PvP zone.
I think the vast majority of the time you can avoid PvP if you want and the worst situation is that you'd have to travel far to get some resource or buy it at a higher price on a market. But since the whole game is kind of based on emergent gameplay I think people really have to understand that the game is putting a ton of power into the hands of the players and shit will happen. He even gives the example of causing a cliff to collapse on a player's home. If a player absolutely and positively cannot stand the idea that something like this has a (slight) possibility of happening to them, then they should really save themselves frustration and anger.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Agreed, we have to prevent that.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
You wanna have the best lvl 250 weapon? Your guild had to help you make it. All items are player made, somebody in your guild had to go into the PR to get the mats to make it.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Weapons and armour for PvE are useless in PvP, you have to buy some cheap basic PvP gear and then earn it through kill rewards and objectives. If you want to do that on the cheap, make it look like the same gear but it slots into the PvP part of the "character sheet".
Buffs from taking land in PvP help you in PvP, buffs from whatever in PvE help you in PvE. Crafting the same etc, just don't cross the streams.
Perhaps players can join the guild in the "lobby" and the founding stones for that guild then become available as spawn locations (that way randos cannot pick your town if you don't allow it).
Nothing kills the buzz like joining a game with friends and they're 1,000,000 light years from the newbie spawn zone and you have to build a ship and grind 15 levels so you can finally make the 3 hrs. trip to get out to where they're at....
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Cant separate PVP and PVE LOL. Have to force PVE'ers to be targets griefed by PVP.?
Yeah except dont look at games like FF14 or Wow or ESO. Nothing to see here. Those were just complete flukes right? Even DAOC and eventually UO separated PVP out with PVE servers.
I am sure you want to tell us now which well rounded games that forces PVE'ers under the boot of PVP players have done so great? I want to know which game you are referring too where PVP players get all the best rewards via "RISK" in PVP.
I am sure you are going to name something that hasnt completely failed right?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All those games (other than Dark Age of Camelot, not sure what that's categorized as) are theme park games. Well made theme park games but dull as every other theme park game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's not surprising that when you cut out PvP from a game that is literally DESIGNED around 3 realms at war, it's going to be a lesser experience. Same with the FFA PvP where you just killed your own realm. I did ultimately try both servers, and had some fun, but at the end of the day both were far less successful than the main game.
Many old school DAoC players will tell you flat out that Trials of Atlantis is what killed DAoC. Because it added all these new items that required you to spend a very large amount of time running PvE content to acquire and level them up. I think there is some validity to that, but it's not the whole story. In a game like DAoC you eventually can get bored sieging the relic keep for the 500th time... So they definitely needed new content. Not sure that ToA was the right content though.
Here is a link to an old MMORPG news post on how the company realized the made a mistake with ToA and were trying to launch a new server type that excluded it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I will however turn around your last statement again "Just because there is PvP in a MMO should not mean the PvE player feels he is missing out if he does not do it". Do you also feel the same way about "forced" PvE? That a PvP player should not "miss out" if he doesn't do the PvE like 3 hours 40 man raids? Should any and all resources, items, accomplishments be able to be gained via PvP only?
And if your answer is YES, then why in the world have two totally separate games under one name?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It all depends on what you mean by "combined", for me all the players are in the same world, they only separate when some go to the PvP zones, just like DAOC. If PvE is such an anathema to you then head to the PvP zones.
Neither PvP or PvE "miss out". What use is raid gear to a PvP guy, like I mentioned armour and weapons found in PvE are of no use in PvP and visa versa. You do your PvE or your PvP because you want to do it. In fact on reflection, doing PvE raises your PvE level while doing PvP raises your PvP level.
The reason to have such totally separate gameplay in one game is that many of us like doing both. In that vein I find housing and crafting boring, but I would not say "these should be in separate games". Following on from that I play in guilds, I don't expect everybody in the guild to just do what I want to do. If someone needs to go on that quest to get an uber table and chair for their house, we go even though I think it's daft.
MMORPG's can be the epitome of collegiate gaming and death matches, both in gameplay, solo players, groups and guilds.
Again, I think that is wrong. There ARE games that cater to folks that want 100% PvP. There ARE games that cater to folks that want 100% PvE (Think games like Ember's Adrift). These are MMORPGs. And those folks rightfully have a home. It's no less valid than someone who likes a mix. What I think is a mistake is going into a game that has both PvP and PvE and expecting to never be touched by one or the other.
Did you play DAoC?
It wasn't just separate zones. It was a fully integrated game. Your success in PvP quite LITERALLY had an impact on people doing PvE. You got buffs which made a huge difference. You opened up Darkness Falls which had (at the time) some of the best gear AND had some raid level PvE content as you went lower and lower. You could find loot in Darkness Falls that crafters needed. But even if you just went into Darkness Falls for PvE you could still face PvP at any time. Some left over enemies would be skulking around. Or an enemy could succeed on the Frontiers and close your access to Darkness Falls and open it up for their own players who would sweep in and hunt you.
The best PvE experience gain was found in places like Darkness Falls or in the Frontiers. It was a fully integrated game.
You will never convince me that having two totally separate games under one roof is the best way. Have a Pure PvE game? Sure. Have a Pure PvP game? Sure. Have an integrated PvP and PvE game? Sure. Have 2 totally separate PvE and PvP games on the same server? No...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The other factions could start working on a port to put it in contention and a red circle appeared around the port. If you enter the red zone you are open to PvP. You can always avoid PvP but what if they put your favorite port with a bunch of your buildings into contention? We used to get a fleet together to escort the haulers in and out. I made cannon ammo so it was important to our guild to get it.
PvP is fun if you can choose when and why to do it. I think a mix of PvE and PvP, along with crafting, housing, etc, makes the best games.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.