Stephen Sharif is asked "Why Do You Hate PvE Players?"

Slapshot1188

Interesting article on Massively which summarizes a recent stream with Stephen. It seems like his death penalty is targeted to more severely penalize players who are NOT flagged for PvP.  

I get it.  I think I personally like the idea of greater risk = greater rewards (or in this case less penalty).  But this is going to go down like a turd in the punch bowl.


"Next, the two talked about the MMORPG’s death penalty, which currently incurs a stat-dampening debuff that lasts between five to 10 minutes, XP debt, and an unexplained percentage of dropped inventory, all of which is lessened for those who are flagged for PvP. This information prompted Vlhadus to outright ask why Sharif hates PvE players, which saw Sharif explain that AOC’s PvX model is meant to make failure hurt and admits that design isn’t for everyone."

Wargfoot

Ran into a bit of this in FO, where the developers hated the players getting rich for some reason.

Anyways, I learned to hate the 'risk vs. reward' argument because it flat out isn't true for much of the population.  PvP isn't inherently any riskier than PvE; I don't see a squad of vets ganking noobs in a starter area to be incurring more risk than a PvE player when trying to solo a dragon for the first time.

The term 'risk vs. reward' is situational but doesn't work as a blanket differentiator between PvP and PvE - although often used exclusively that way.  The murder hobos like to talk about having a riskier game experience but then use every exploit, dirty trick, group tactic, noob hunting play in the book to take the risk to zero.

The richest players in every open world PvP title I've ever played will be the murder hobos.

This just tells me that my decision to avoid this title was the correct one.
It will be a gankfest until it shutters.  The developer reads like a moron to me.

Scot

How is someone who is not flagged for PvP being targeted?

Wargfoot

Scot said:

How is someone who is not flagged for PvP being targeted?

They have additional losses upon death.
You know, to make up for all the free loots the murder hobos aren't getting.

There is a weird mindset in these games where the PvP crowd, ostensibly playing for the PvP challenge, lose their minds at the thought of some noob carrying some loot into town without giving them a piece of it.

Because of this, to make it fair, the PvE crowd has to be taxed somehow because hours of grinding and looting mobs and so forth just isn't fun without the PvP risk component, and failing that, additional risk to punish them for not flagging.

I'm sorry, but in my mind, this just moved the developers into the "clueless noob" column.

kitarad

This is almost vindictive. I am at a loss for words to describe how bad an idea this is. 

Wargfoot

kitarad said:

This is almost vindictive. I am at a loss for words to describe how bad an idea this is. 

Wargfoot: "So what do you think about kitarad spending hours mining and then hauling all that sweet ore into town to spend even more hours refining it and making armor?"

Murder Hobo: "Can I whack her and take her stuff?"

Wargfoot: "Nope."

Murder Hobo: "Then, what the hell? I'm.. you CANNOT be serious - like HOW IS SHE HAVING FUN? "

Wargfoot: "Oh, we've got you covered.  If she's flagged for PvE and dies we take all her stuff, ban her account, destroy her credit score, and then report her to the FBI as a domestic terrorist after planting evidence on her computer."

Murder Hobo: "Okay... as long as she suffers, I'm all good."

------

I just got out of a conversation with a player in FO who was upset at me for enjoying the game and building up massive stores of goods.  I'm not exaggerating, he was upset that I'd collect all this stuff that had no purpose. (or so he thought)

I pointed out that I was selling stuff in the market and giving stuff to new players, at which point I was accused of ruining the game for new players by giving them stuff.  This is one of the players that wanted a wipe because, for some reason, the contents of my bank box were ruining the game for him.

Maybe developers should stop listening to the mentally ill.

Wargfoot

kitarad said:

This is almost vindictive. I am at a loss for words to describe how bad an idea this is. 

I'm getting a WildStar vibe.

iF yOU dOn'T LiKE ouR HardCoRe gAMe thEN dON'T PlAy

Kyleran

Dead game is DOA.  

Wargfoot

Kyleran said:

Dead game is DOA.  

You forgot all the drama before it dies:

1: Huge influx of players.

2: PvE crowd begins to quit due to ganking.

3: PvP crowd calls them 'carebears'.

4: More PvE crowd quits.

5: PvP crowd complains about lack of 'action'.

6: Developers wake up and back pedal on the PvP stuff.

7: PvP crowd quits, blames developers for listening to the PvE crowd.

8: Developers try to appease PvP crowd, failing to realize since they quit a month ago they've already ruined 3 other games and stunk up 4 other discord servers.

Oddly enough, I don't blame the PvP crowd.  They were just playing the game as designed and half the PvE crowd in the game shouldn't have been there in the first place because they didn't read the box.

I blame the developers - the game professionals that should know better.

BrotherMaynard

Isn't the logic behind this that those who play fully flagged for PvP will die more than the rest?

If a PvEer dies once in a blue moon and loses 15 out of his collection of 20 rat tails, it might be easier to swallow than a PvPer potentially dying several times per hour and logging out after each session completely skint.

Wargfoot

BrotherMaynard said:

Isn't the logic behind this that those who play fully flagged for PvP will die more than the rest?

If a PvEer dies once in a blue moon and loses 15 out of his collection of 20 rat tails, it might be easier to swallow than a PvPer potentially dying several times per hour and logging out after each session completely skint.

Then don't flag for PvP?

I'm having a hard time making the connection between someone else's poor flagging choice and my game play.

Oddly enough, anytime I've complained about getting whacked the advice I get is "git gud" or "git friends" - and I guess that doesn't work for the PvP player in your scenario.  In this scenario, the way to fix the PvP guy's problem is to punish me?

This is just a murder hobo trying to get more victims to flag.
I'd love to see how that isn't the case.

I can wait.

Wargfoot

Okay, sorry for spamming the thread but it's time to kill this idea.

*ahem*

1. When it comes to incentivizing people to flag, why the punitive approach instead of making PvP fun for everyone?  Maybe it is an early hint the PvP you've designed isn't fun if you have to carrot/stick people into it.
2. Would you consider doing the opposite where PvP flagged folks suffer a disadvantage to failed crafting attempts because they didn't flag PvE?  That's how silly this idea is - doesn't look good on the opposite foot, does it?
3. You're setting up the PvE crowd for disappointment either through punishing PvE losses, or risking something they don't want to do and getting ganked.
4. How about this question: Why are the PvP crowd out looking for flagged players anyways?  That seem broken.  Why not find a way to stuff them full of PvP without the need to look for flagged players?
5. You're setting up the PvE crowd for failure, because anyone who is flagged for PvP and doing PvE will be engaged with the dragon when the PKs show up, virtually guaranteeing a loss.  You're not introducing them to a positive PvP experience, you're making it most certainly negative.

If you find yourself coming up with that idea, your design already failed somewhere else along the way.  Fix the design, eliminate the need for such a silly solution.

Sovrath

Here’s a thought… consider the game a PvP game by default and move on. Seems fairly obvious.

If they can’t  make a compelling game that can be financially viable then that’s on them. If they can then good on them for joining the few.

Babuinix

Carebears professing doom cause of PvP just like with the New World babies but reversed

Wargfoot

Babuinix said:

Carebears professing doom cause of PvP just like with the New World babies but reversed

I've played many PvP games and I've enjoyed them.
What I detest is the "candy in the back of the van" approach.

I hope the game succeeds; however, I have my doubts as they don't seem to understand the issues.

That said, at least the developer had the nerve to say, "This game may not be for you.", which is refreshing.

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

Here’s a thought… consider the game a PvP game by default and move on. Seems fairly obvious.

If they can’t  make a compelling game that can be financially viable then that’s on them. If they can then good on them for joining the few.

Solid.

When will the developer realize they're making a PvP game by default and do away with the ridiculous PvE incentivizing?  Why not default everyone flagged?

BrotherMaynard

Wargfoot said:

BrotherMaynard said:

Isn't the logic behind this that those who play fully flagged for PvP will die more than the rest?

If a PvEer dies once in a blue moon and loses 15 out of his collection of 20 rat tails, it might be easier to swallow than a PvPer potentially dying several times per hour and logging out after each session completely skint.

Then don't flag for PvP?

I'm having a hard time making the connection between someone else's poor flagging choice and my game play.

Oddly enough, anytime I've complained about getting whacked the advice I get is "git gud" or "git friends" - and I guess that doesn't work for the PvP player in your scenario.  In this scenario, the way to fix the PvP guy's problem is to punish me?

This is just a murder hobo trying to get more victims to flag.
I'd love to see how that isn't the case.

I can wait.

Eh? You're trying to tell people how they should enjoy the game? "Don't flag for PvP"? In a game where some of the core mechanics are built on PvP? That's a truly bizarre reaction.

If I enjoy PvPing, I do so fully aware that I will be dying a lot. That's part of the game. Unlike in other games, AoC will clearly have harsher penalties to dying. This really is a no-brainer: if death penalties such as these are a core design principle, then the expected number of deaths X loss per death must be balanced out. The only other option is to remove such death penalties altogether.

Telling people to stop PvPing is a ridiculous take even in a standard MMO, let alone in one where all its basic elements (such as the caravans or nodes development) depend on it.

Neoyoshi

So where are the penalties for killing?  Let me guess, there are none.

Slapshot1188

I may be wrong, but I believe you can still be attacked when your PvP flag is off. 

Wargfoot

BrotherMaynard said:

Wargfoot said:

BrotherMaynard said:

Isn't the logic behind this that those who play fully flagged for PvP will die more than the rest?

If a PvEer dies once in a blue moon and loses 15 out of his collection of 20 rat tails, it might be easier to swallow than a PvPer potentially dying several times per hour and logging out after each session completely skint.

Then don't flag for PvP?

I'm having a hard time making the connection between someone else's poor flagging choice and my game play.

Oddly enough, anytime I've complained about getting whacked the advice I get is "git gud" or "git friends" - and I guess that doesn't work for the PvP player in your scenario.  In this scenario, the way to fix the PvP guy's problem is to punish me?

This is just a murder hobo trying to get more victims to flag.
I'd love to see how that isn't the case.

I can wait.

Eh? You're trying to tell people how they should enjoy the game? "Don't flag for PvP"? In a game where some of the core mechanics are built on PvP? That's a truly bizarre reaction.

If I enjoy PvPing, I do so fully aware that I will be dying a lot. That's part of the game. Unlike in other games, AoC will clearly have harsher penalties to dying. This really is a no-brainer: if death penalties such as these are a core design principle, then the expected number of deaths X loss per death must be balanced out. The only other option is to remove such death penalties altogether.

Telling people to stop PvPing is a ridiculous take even in a standard MMO, let alone in one where all its basic elements (such as the caravans or nodes development) depend on it.

The point is, if you don't want to lose your stuff via PvP then flag PvE.

Everyone has the same option in the game - any perceived advantage the PvE player has is available to the PvP player by simply changing how he flags.

What happens is a PvP player will say, "Hey, the PvE crowd has less risk." and while that may be true, if the PvP player wants less risk then flag up as PvE.  Everyone has the same options in game - they're the ones bagging on other people's choices.

Wargfoot

Slapshot1188 said:

I may be wrong, but I believe you can still be attacked when your PvP flag is off. 

Yes, but if the other person is PvP enabled the punishment is non-existent.
Hence the need for the murder hobos to incentivize the flock to flag for PvP.

Ironically enough, they're doing that so the PvP crowd has less risk.

Wargfoot

Neoyoshi said:

So where are the penalties for killing?  Let me guess, there are none.

If they can give you enough candy to get you into the back of the van (flag for PvP) then the penalties melt away.

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Here’s a thought… consider the game a PvP game by default and move on. Seems fairly obvious.

If they can’t  make a compelling game that can be financially viable then that’s on them. If they can then good on them for joining the few.

Solid.

When will the developer realize they're making a PvP game by default and do away with the ridiculous PvE incentivizing?  Why not default everyone flagged?

Ask him.

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Here’s a thought… consider the game a PvP game by default and move on. Seems fairly obvious.

If they can’t  make a compelling game that can be financially viable then that’s on them. If they can then good on them for joining the few.

Solid.

When will the developer realize they're making a PvP game by default and do away with the ridiculous PvE incentivizing?  Why not default everyone flagged?

Ask him.

It is difficult to rant when you keep posting sense.
Now I'm just vaguely sad.

Nanfoodle

This is old information. Very old. Point for me is not that it's in. I'm used to this kind of game play. Failing hurts. Can't count how many levels I lost in EQ and more then a few bodies. My concern is how the people not following close feel when they think in masses don't like that part of old school. My hopes is they keep their stance.


Scources at the bottom, some back from 2017

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

Kyleran

The day will come when Steven wants my money and he'll change the ruleset with much wailing and gnashing of teeth by the PVP crowd.....

And I still won't play it.....

But I will happily dance on the game's grave.