Interview: Talking Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen's Early Access Launch With Creative Director Chris P

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Interview: Talking Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen's Early Access Launch With Creative Director Chris Perkins | MMORPG.com

Earlier this month, Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen launched into Early Access. We sat down with its creative director, Chris Perkins, after that first weekend to talk about the struggles getting here, feedback, and the path forward.

Read the full story here

6stack_Chris

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.

I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

Sovrath

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.

I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

Slapshot1188

Sovrath said:

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.

I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

To be fair… it’s hard to tell what Early Access even means today.  Same with Alpha, Beta, etc…. And these guys made it even worse with their “seasons”. 
 
In this case they say they will wipe, so that should be what sets everyone’s expectations.  When wipes are promised it means significant systems will be changing or implemented.  

Hartack

Slapshot1188 said:

Sovrath said:

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.



I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

To be fair… it’s hard to tell what Early Access even means today.  Same with Alpha, Beta, etc…. And these guys made it even worse with their “seasons”. 
 
In this case they say they will wipe, so that should be what sets everyone’s expectations.  When wipes are promised it means significant systems will be changing or implemented.  

I have beating this drum regularly since the steam community came on board.

"It's not that there's a wipe - it's what's added and changed With a wipe." that's important.

Pantheon still has some issues, but it's the best thing an old EQ player could hope for on the market today.

Angrakhan

Wouldn't EQ be the best thing an old EQ player could hope for? It's still very much online.

skeaser

Angrakhan said:

Wouldn't EQ be the best thing an old EQ player could hope for? It's still very much online.

I still play a lot of EQ but it is painful to play. The controls, the UI, and the systems are very dated and the lighting system is wonky on modern hardware. The game is still fun but it would be great to have a tuned-up version.

Scot

skeaser said:

Angrakhan said:

Wouldn't EQ be the best thing an old EQ player could hope for? It's still very much online.

I still play a lot of EQ but it is painful to play. The controls, the UI, and the systems are very dated and the lighting system is wonky on modern hardware. The game is still fun but it would be great to have a tuned-up version.

So what you are asking for is EQ with better graphics and animations. Obviously this game will not give you that and no studio ever released a 2.0 of their MMO which just updates the graphics.

Maybe emulations could give players that, the upgrades to graphics are tiny though. I just think games which set themselves up as the new "whatever game" are bound to disappoint fans, goes with the territory.

Slapshot1188

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Sovrath said:

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.



I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

To be fair… it’s hard to tell what Early Access even means today.  Same with Alpha, Beta, etc…. And these guys made it even worse with their “seasons”. 
 
In this case they say they will wipe, so that should be what sets everyone’s expectations.  When wipes are promised it means significant systems will be changing or implemented.  

I have beating this drum regularly since the steam community came on board.

"It's not that there's a wipe - it's what's added and changed With a wipe." that's important.

Pantheon still has some issues, but it's the best thing an old EQ player could hope for on the market today.

Not even close.  IMHO it's behind a game like Embers Adrift, Project Gorgon and on par with efforts like Monsters and Memories.  Heck even P99 and such are in better shape with far more to offer.  That's not to even touch on the Vanguard EMU (I think Vanguard is a superior experience in every way/shape or form). But different strokes for different folks.  Just don't go claiming that you speak for "old EQ players" because, you don't.

Hartack

Slapshot1188 said:

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Sovrath said:

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.





I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

To be fair… it’s hard to tell what Early Access even means today.  Same with Alpha, Beta, etc…. And these guys made it even worse with their “seasons”. 
 
In this case they say they will wipe, so that should be what sets everyone’s expectations.  When wipes are promised it means significant systems will be changing or implemented.  

I have beating this drum regularly since the steam community came on board.



"It's not that there's a wipe - it's what's added and changed With a wipe." that's important.



Pantheon still has some issues, but it's the best thing an old EQ player could hope for on the market today.

Not even close.  IMHO it's behind a game like Embers Adrift, Project Gorgon and on par with efforts like Monsters and Memories.  Heck even P99 and such are in better shape with far more to offer.  That's not to even touch on the Vanguard EMU (I think Vanguard is a superior experience in every way/shape or form). But different strokes for different folks.  Just don't go claiming that you speak for "old EQ players" because, you don't.

Me. I'm the old EQ player. EQ lost a step with Plane of Knowledge, and arguably with Luclin, though Luclin Portals and Vex Thal were pretty good to me. If you feel that way, then this *is* the best thing on the market, hands down, As It Is; and it's only going to get better.

Sovrath

Scot said:

skeaser said:

Angrakhan said:

Wouldn't EQ be the best thing an old EQ player could hope for? It's still very much online.

I still play a lot of EQ but it is painful to play. The controls, the UI, and the systems are very dated and the lighting system is wonky on modern hardware. The game is still fun but it would be great to have a tuned-up version.

So what you are asking for is EQ with better graphics and animations. Obviously this game will not give you that and no studio ever released a 2.0 of their MMO which just updates the graphics.

Maybe emulations could give players that, the upgrades to graphics are tiny though. I just think games which set themselves up as the new "whatever game" are bound to disappoint fans, goes with the territory.

Actually this game does have better graphics. I was standing on the small elevator in the elf starting area and suddenly noticed how the shadows were coming through the trees. I started moving the camera around, seeing how the light an shadows moved around the character.

I also really like how the torch illuminates the area around you at night.

animations? Slightly better than Everquest.

Brainy

What a joke this game.  So funny listening to people try to pimp this dog pile trash game.  In 2024 we are searching for "Something" this game might have thats better than a game made in 1999 and we landed on a shadow on a tree somewhere.  We have a winner!!!  It only took 10 years to get there.

But lets not mention that your body falls through the floor on the same elevator you seen that shadow, and also anyone riding it will see other character's bouncing around and their graphic is still at the top of the elevator.

After 10 years what mechanic even seems close to complete?  Game is bad.  Its just a testing environment at this point.  If development continues at this rate it would be a good 50 years before Beta.  Lets see if the money holds out that long LOL.

This is what it looks like when quality standards are gone.

Hartack

Brainy said:

What a joke this game.  So funny listening to people try to pimp this dog pile trash game.  In 2024 we are searching for "Something" this game might have thats better than a game made in 1999 and we landed on a shadow on a tree somewhere.  We have a winner!!!  It only took 10 years to get there.

But lets not mention that your body falls through the floor on the same elevator you seen that shadow, and also anyone riding it will see other character's bouncing around and their graphic is still at the top of the elevator.

After 10 years what mechanic even seems close to complete?  Game is bad.  Its just a testing environment at this point.  If development continues at this rate it would be a good 50 years before Beta.  Lets see if the money holds out that long LOL.

This is what it looks like when quality standards are gone.

To a lot of people who helped develop that quality standard,

Ashes of Creation
New World
Throne and Liberty
Guild Wars 2
and plenty more

are what you end up at when that standard is gone.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

What a joke this game.  So funny listening to people try to pimp this dog pile trash game.  In 2024 we are searching for "Something" this game might have thats better than a game made in 1999 and we landed on a shadow on a tree somewhere.  We have a winner!!!  It only took 10 years to get there.

But lets not mention that your body falls through the floor on the same elevator you seen that shadow, and also anyone riding it will see other character's bouncing around and their graphic is still at the top of the elevator.

After 10 years what mechanic even seems close to complete?  Game is bad.  Its just a testing environment at this point.  If development continues at this rate it would be a good 50 years before Beta.  Lets see if the money holds out that long LOL.

This is what it looks like when quality standards are gone.

I've never fallen through that elevator though I've seen a character float down just above the elevator when we were descending.

What you just can't understand, what you are incapable of understanding, is that it's not a finished game. At all.

You are also incapable of understanding that it wasn't a good development history. Whether it was because of people leaving, bad management, inexperienced developers, lack of money at times, "whatever." That's why the game is in the state it is and that's why they launched it on steam "early access." I doubt the game will get finished but for those who want this type of game and for those who enjoy it, I hope it does.

Your post is what having too much vitriol, lack of understanding, and some sort of axe to grind looks like. The existence of this game in this state doesn't take anything away from anyone.

Now, if you donated thousands of dollars to the game and only got "this" then you learned a valuable lesson about giving money to any game on a crowdfunding platform.

Slapshot1188

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Sovrath said:

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.





I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

To be fair… it’s hard to tell what Early Access even means today.  Same with Alpha, Beta, etc…. And these guys made it even worse with their “seasons”. 
 
In this case they say they will wipe, so that should be what sets everyone’s expectations.  When wipes are promised it means significant systems will be changing or implemented.  

I have beating this drum regularly since the steam community came on board.



"It's not that there's a wipe - it's what's added and changed With a wipe." that's important.



Pantheon still has some issues, but it's the best thing an old EQ player could hope for on the market today.

Not even close.  IMHO it's behind a game like Embers Adrift, Project Gorgon and on par with efforts like Monsters and Memories.  Heck even P99 and such are in better shape with far more to offer.  That's not to even touch on the Vanguard EMU (I think Vanguard is a superior experience in every way/shape or form). But different strokes for different folks.  Just don't go claiming that you speak for "old EQ players" because, you don't.

Me. I'm the old EQ player. EQ lost a step with Plane of Knowledge, and arguably with Luclin, though Luclin Portals and Vex Thal were pretty good to me. If you feel that way, then this *is* the best thing on the market, hands down, As It Is; and it's only going to get better.

LOL.  You are AN old EQ player.  As am I.  As are many many others.  Not a single member of my group (all EQ players) wanted to play it again after testing it a few months ago.  Yet I don't claim to speak for all old EQ players.

Like I said,  I understand you like it.  You aren't wrong for liking it.  But you also weren't elected as the mouthpiece to represent the rest of us.

PS: I asked you before but will do it again.  What does this game have right now that makes it a better successor to EQ than Vanguard is? 

Brainy

Sovrath said:

What you just can't understand, what you are incapable of understanding, is that it's not a finished game. At all.

You are also incapable of understanding that it wasn't a good development history. 

No I understand perfectly.

You can say the same about any poorly made game.  There's always something they could fix, add or improve.

I'm not here to evaluate it based on what it might become 50 years from now.  It could be better, it also could easily barely change and I doubt it could get much worse.

As it stands RIGHT NOW this game is awful.  They chose to sell it and put it out publicly in this state.  I am not going to pretend its acceptable when its clearly not.

If, by some miracle, it drastically improves, I'll reassess my opinion at that time.

Let me ask you this, what point will you reconsider your stance?  Are you just going to keep saying "it's still in development" indefinetly?  What's your line for admitting the reality of what this game actually is?

thalasd

I don't pay a company to test their software. I both alpha and beta tested EQ and was asked to do so, I did not have to pay them for the privilege.

Hartack

Slapshot1188 said:

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Sovrath said:

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.







I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

To be fair… it’s hard to tell what Early Access even means today.  Same with Alpha, Beta, etc…. And these guys made it even worse with their “seasons”. 
 
In this case they say they will wipe, so that should be what sets everyone’s expectations.  When wipes are promised it means significant systems will be changing or implemented.  

I have beating this drum regularly since the steam community came on board.





"It's not that there's a wipe - it's what's added and changed With a wipe." that's important.





Pantheon still has some issues, but it's the best thing an old EQ player could hope for on the market today.

Not even close.  IMHO it's behind a game like Embers Adrift, Project Gorgon and on par with efforts like Monsters and Memories.  Heck even P99 and such are in better shape with far more to offer.  That's not to even touch on the Vanguard EMU (I think Vanguard is a superior experience in every way/shape or form). But different strokes for different folks.  Just don't go claiming that you speak for "old EQ players" because, you don't.

Me. I'm the old EQ player. EQ lost a step with Plane of Knowledge, and arguably with Luclin, though Luclin Portals and Vex Thal were pretty good to me. If you feel that way, then this *is* the best thing on the market, hands down, As It Is; and it's only going to get better.

LOL.  You are AN old EQ player.  As am I.  As are many many others.  Not a single member of my group (all EQ players) wanted to play it again after testing it a few months ago.  Yet I don't claim to speak for all old EQ players.

Like I said,  I understand you like it.  You aren't wrong for liking it.  But you also weren't elected as the mouthpiece to represent the rest of us.

PS: I asked you before but will do it again.  What does this game have right now that makes it a better successor to EQ than Vanguard is? 

You remind me of all those conservative talk show "America First!: douches who got found out for taking money from Russia.

cept you're just You, I guess. Happy New Year! edit Also it's better than Vanguard in the way it's not a quest hub grinder with 'linked pulls' and is more skill based (like EQ) in at least that one regard, with many more things going for it, And, you're just mad as hell it's going to outlive Mortal, ain't ya.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

No I understand perfectly.

You can say the same about any poorly made game.  There's always something they could fix, add or improve.

I'm not here to evaluate it based on what it might become 50 years from now.  It could be better, it also could easily barely change and I doubt it could get much worse.

As it stands RIGHT NOW this game is awful.  They chose to sell it and put it out publicly in this state.  I am not going to pretend its acceptable when its clearly not.

If, by some miracle, it drastically improves, I'll reassess my opinion at that time.

Let me ask you this, what point will you reconsider your stance?  Are you just going to keep saying "it's still in development" indefinetly?  What's your line for admitting the reality of what this game actually is?

Your question leads me to believe you just aren't understanding what I'm saying.

Also, I strongly suspect you've never made anything.

Their development is as I've said; with the exception that I'm not an insider and don't know the exact details to every issue and every delay.

They have, over the course of time, only been able to release the game in an alpha state. This they have stated, and as I've played the game, I can attest it's not finished and seems definitely in an alpha state. So what stance? This is as they say it is.

Developers, all developers, release games to early access in order to gain additional funds so that they (hopefully) can finish their games. This is what the Pantheon developers have done. They are not presenting this as "finished! please buy our game" but "we need financial support so if you believe in this type of game, please buy our game."

There is no hard and fast deadline that states that if your game (in this case) takes longer than x years then no matter the state it's in it's finished.

If it takes another 5 years to get to beta then it's 5 years until beta. That's not ideal at all and I suspect they can't run that long anyway.

I've known people who have taken inordinate amounts of time to finish a play or opera or musical or even a house. If they presented what they had in order to gain funds to help finish then I don't consider what they have "at this moment" as done.

You don't like that it's taken this long? You don't like that they are still asking for money to finish it? Great! But that's pretty much on you and you should feel free to move on.

Slapshot1188

Hartack said:

You remind me of all those conservative talk show "America First!: douches who got found out for taking money from Russia.

cept you're just You, I guess. Happy New Year! edit Also it's better than Vanguard in the way it's not a quest hub grinder with 'linked pulls' and is more skill based (like EQ) in at least that one regard, with many more things going for it, And, you're just mad as hell it's going to outlive Mortal, ain't ya.

That you think I in any way shape or form would support Mortal Online says a ton about your lack of knowledge and how unseriously we should weigh your opinions.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

Sovrath said:

What you just can't understand, what you are incapable of understanding, is that it's not a finished game. At all.

You are also incapable of understanding that it wasn't a good development history. 

No I understand perfectly.

You can say the same about any poorly made game.  There's always something they could fix, add or improve.

I'm not here to evaluate it based on what it might become 50 years from now.  It could be better, it also could easily barely change and I doubt it could get much worse.

As it stands RIGHT NOW this game is awful.  They chose to sell it and put it out publicly in this state.  I am not going to pretend its acceptable when its clearly not.

If, by some miracle, it drastically improves, I'll reassess my opinion at that time.

Let me ask you this, what point will you reconsider your stance?  Are you just going to keep saying "it's still in development" indefinetly?  What's your line for admitting the reality of what this game actually is?

No you don't understand because you are still under the impression it's a finished game and you can only judge it as a finished game. I can't say if it's a well made game because things aren't done. Additionally, I''m sure I'll disagree with you about some of the things that were implemented like the death penalty. You very much think that these old school systems aren't "well made." Well, your prerogative. I disagree. However, it's hard to say what is well made or not as "it's not finished."

Yes, any game can be added on to or changed over time. But this game is NOT finished.  So why are you evaluating it as finished? It's not. period. At some point they will leave beta and you can then judge the game as finished. For now, it's just an alpha game that took a long time in getting here.

Brainy

Sovrath said:

I can't say if it's a well made game because things aren't done.
"SNIP"

Yes, any game can be added on to or changed over time. But this game is NOT finished.  So why are you evaluating it as finished? It's not. period. At some point they will leave beta and you can then judge the game as finished. For now, it's just an alpha game that took a long time in getting here.

It sounds like you’re unable to make comparisons or offer useful advice about a future model based on current facts. Instead, it seems like you’re waiting for someone to provide a precise technical definition to make a direct 1-to-1 comparison.

Good luck with that—you might never get it.

Because of this, you don’t seem like the best person to ask for an opinion. This is exactly why developers shouldn’t rely on this kind of thinking. If you can’t assess whether something is good until it’s 100% complete, you’re a bad source for advice. Almost everything can change, and “final state” is such a flexible term in gaming. Even World of Warcraft is still being updated!

The concept of a "release" isn’t what it used to be. These terms are often bent to suit a narrative or business strategy.

So, if this game stays in early access for 20 years, are you really saying you won’t be able to judge how good it is? That’s laughable. It’s a good thing you’re not working in roles like editing, predictive analysis, or investing—any field that requires making decisions based on incomplete information.

KnightFalz

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Hartack said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Sovrath said:

6stack_Chris said:

I am debating on picking this up. I played Asheron's Call from 2000 to closure and also play on the Coldeve emulated server. I love the old school MMORPG's, the grind, the explorations, the social aspect etc.







I am really hoping that this game is that and it lives up to the promises. However, I don't know if I want to drop 40$ on it right now.

It’s an unfinished game. If you’re fine with a game that is still waiting to have important systems added or is missing animations and very limited customization AND you are ok with running out of things to do so you must wait for updates, then go ahead.

Too many people buy into these games expecting “near done” and are very disappointed.

To be fair… it’s hard to tell what Early Access even means today.  Same with Alpha, Beta, etc…. And these guys made it even worse with their “seasons”. 
 
In this case they say they will wipe, so that should be what sets everyone’s expectations.  When wipes are promised it means significant systems will be changing or implemented.  

I have beating this drum regularly since the steam community came on board.





"It's not that there's a wipe - it's what's added and changed With a wipe." that's important.





Pantheon still has some issues, but it's the best thing an old EQ player could hope for on the market today.

Not even close.  IMHO it's behind a game like Embers Adrift, Project Gorgon and on par with efforts like Monsters and Memories.  Heck even P99 and such are in better shape with far more to offer.  That's not to even touch on the Vanguard EMU (I think Vanguard is a superior experience in every way/shape or form). But different strokes for different folks.  Just don't go claiming that you speak for "old EQ players" because, you don't.

Me. I'm the old EQ player. EQ lost a step with Plane of Knowledge, and arguably with Luclin, though Luclin Portals and Vex Thal were pretty good to me. If you feel that way, then this *is* the best thing on the market, hands down, As It Is; and it's only going to get better.

LOL.  You are AN old EQ player.  As am I.  As are many many others.  Not a single member of my group (all EQ players) wanted to play it again after testing it a few months ago.  Yet I don't claim to speak for all old EQ players.

Like I said,  I understand you like it.  You aren't wrong for liking it.  But you also weren't elected as the mouthpiece to represent the rest of us.

PS: I asked you before but will do it again.  What does this game have right now that makes it a better successor to EQ than Vanguard is? 

You remind me of all those conservative talk show "America First!: douches who got found out for taking money from Russia.

cept you're just You, I guess. Happy New Year! edit Also it's better than Vanguard in the way it's not a quest hub grinder with 'linked pulls' and is more skill based (like EQ) in at least that one regard, with many more things going for it, And, you're just mad as hell it's going to outlive Mortal, ain't ya.

Pantheon is not released and may never get there. It's a bit early to be celebrate it outliving anything.

Scot

It may be time for a:

Keep Calm And Carry On Posting!

olepi

thalasd said:

I don't pay a company to test their software. I both alpha and beta tested EQ and was asked to do so, I did not have to pay them for the privilege.

I was in the closed beta for LoTRO, ESO, and City of Villains. Of course they didn't ask for money. And I played it differently, trying all kinds of things to see if I could break them. Not playing the game as a game for fun, but testing.

Early access used to mean you paid to get the game a little early, everybody else got the same game after a week or two. It was a head start.

Alas, those days are long gone now.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

Sovrath said:

I can't say if it's a well made game because things aren't done.
"SNIP"

Yes, any game can be added on to or changed over time. But this game is NOT finished.  So why are you evaluating it as finished? It's not. period. At some point they will leave beta and you can then judge the game as finished. For now, it's just an alpha game that took a long time in getting here.

It sounds like you’re unable to make comparisons or offer useful advice about a future model based on current facts. Instead, it seems like you’re waiting for someone to provide a precise technical definition to make a direct 1-to-1 comparison.

Good luck with that—you might never get it.

Because of this, you don’t seem like the best person to ask for an opinion. This is exactly why developers shouldn’t rely on this kind of thinking. If you can’t assess whether something is good until it’s 100% complete, you’re a bad source for advice. Almost everything can change, and “final state” is such a flexible term in gaming. Even World of Warcraft is still being updated!

The concept of a "release" isn’t what it used to be. These terms are often bent to suit a narrative or business strategy.

So, if this game stays in early access for 20 years, are you really saying you won’t be able to judge how good it is? That’s laughable. It’s a good thing you’re not working in roles like editing, predictive analysis, or investing—any field that requires making decisions based on incomplete information.

The problem with you is are incapable of looking at a situation and assessing what’s really going on. You instead assert your very negative biases in order to support some sort of agenda.

You are a very black and white thinker.

To your example, If in 20 years the game is in the same state I would say it’s an unfinished game. As a finished game it would be horrid. But as I know what a finished mmo looks like and as we know what their goal was AND we know they are calling it alpha, which it clearly is, we have a strong idea of where they are.

We can see with our own eyes it’s alpha regardless of them telling us it is. 

If in 20 years they are still in alpha we know they have either extremely bad management and/ lack the funds to complete their game.

This shouldn’t be difficult Brainy but I’m sorry you find it so.