Originally posted by Horsas Originally posted by Rubycat did you know he used to whine in the wow pvp forums about there not being a FFA server with all these rules, and when some said he would like Lineage 2, he replied back Lineage 2 was too hard with its penalties so he went to wow
Lineage 2.
I would play that game if I could kill a player and take all their loot. But you can't. When you kill a player in that game you gain nothing and the player loses experience I believe which is stupid. I'd rather kill a player and get all their items so I have something to gain.
In L2 you can delevel as well which is the lamest concept. The grind is so harsh you have to seriously be an idiot to play that game for 12 months to finally PVP. In PVP you get nothing.
That's so PvP freaks like you don't go around killing level 5 n00bies. It makes perfect sense.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
OP: If you have such a hard on for PVP go play Shadowbane. Enjoy your "full" pvp.
Just face the fact that the majority of gamers don't get off on PVP solely, take your ritalin and relax.
Now for a real solution, go play a FPS. RPGs are not shooters.
What's funny about "carebear" is that most people that use it tend to be the worst offenders... they won't bother with a real challenge like someone higher level than them but they will certainly jump on a person that has no chance to win.
BTW: If you haven't noticed, there are more PVP games out now than there ever has been.
So grab that plush bedtime carebear next to your monitor and give it a squeese OP, mommie feels sorry for you.
I think the OP needs to find a job beating dead horses. He'd make millions.
The problem isn't with PvP. The problem is with other people forcing PvP on me. Let's use UO but make it so that open PVP, full looting, stealing (pick pocketing), permadeath are implemented. You start off the game in a town under the protection of the town gaurds. You want to make money so you choose bowery and lumberjacking as your primary skills. You make umpteen thousand bows, get a nice little chunk of change and go to the NPC trainers to learn archery, stealth, camping, etc. You keep doing this for a little while in the comfort of the town and you meet some people in a guild that train you up a bit and take you on a few outings. After awhile, you're character is almost fully developed and you've run out of trainers, bot NPC and guildmates, that can help you boost your skills quickly. You have no choice but to practice. So you strike out of town to practice your non combat skills when you're attacked by a horde of PKers. They aren't as highly trained as you so they fall like blades of grass beneath your arrows. They do outnumber you though and eventually you fall. With that one ganking, you lose all the time you've invested in that character. All the stuff that character owned. The kicker being, you weren't out to PvP at all.
The individuals that scream the loudest about wanting open PvP, full loot, and permadeath are also the ones that go out of their way to avoid a fair fight. You don't see many of those people playing EVE or entering into the PvP areas of most games. Why? Because EVE and most PvP areas are well balanced and offer a fair fight. They can't stand the idea of losing to someone that's just plain better at the game than they are. I love PvP, but there are time when I just want to hang out, grind up a few levels or skills, or just go on a quest with some friends. Sad truth is, griefers killed your "ideal" game. Since we can't trust some of you to play nice, we have to treat all of you like gankers. Honestly, it's better this way.
Originally posted by doobster To many, after reaching the end-game, it will get boring. PvP proves to be ENDLESS fun as an endgame. Real Player Competition can go on forever, as FPS's show ... I think people have the wrong idea about PvP, whats so bad about competing with one another. Were not taking away your right to play with one another, you're just playing against a smarter, faster, adaptable enemy. I think a real good PvP game has yet to be made, so people dont know the fun it can have. There should be Alliance Wars (multiple races allied, agasint other alliances), Race wars, Guild Wars, Inter-Racial wars, wars over territory, wars over commodities... once you add all this into a game, it will be continual fun, for years.
I agree with you on the fact that PVP can be fun and entertaining.. However many people tend to shy away from PVP due to the fact that some games out there set no limits on it.. FFA might be fun for some, but it can be fustrating for others.. This is the internet and people will get away with what ever you let them, PVP MMORPG's need to keep that in mind.. Having a person(s)5 0 levels higher then you running around and ganking you is not fun, not for the gankee...
Maybe if people would actually find the "tough" fight and not try to kill something that presents no challenge things would be better. But as I said this is the internet, and it tends to bring the worst out in people. My best time in a PVP game was with Anarchy Online (pre-shadowlands) it had a level Tier, meaning a person a certain amount of levels could not attack the others.. Was PVP boring? Hell no it was fun and exiciting, due to the fact taht everone was around the same level and we didnt have to worry about 1 side brining in a level 200 to 1 shot the other side. I guess you can say it was Fair PVP, but sadly most gamers do not want that.. They seem to want to take the cowards way out.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe I think the OP needs to find a job beating dead horses. He'd make millions. The problem isn't with PvP. The problem is with other people forcing PvP on me. Let's use UO but make it so that open PVP, full looting, stealing (pick pocketing), permadeath are implemented. You start off the game in a town under the protection of the town gaurds. You want to make money so you choose bowery and lumberjacking as your primary skills. You make umpteen thousand bows, get a nice little chunk of change and go to the NPC trainers to learn archery, stealth, camping, etc. You keep doing this for a little while in the comfort of the town and you meet some people in a guild that train you up a bit and take you on a few outings. After awhile, you're character is almost fully developed and you've run out of trainers, bot NPC and guildmates, that can help you boost your skills quickly. You have no choice but to practice. So you strike out of town to practice your non combat skills when you're attacked by a horde of PKers. They aren't as highly trained as you so they fall like blades of grass beneath your arrows. They do outnumber you though and eventually you fall. With that one ganking, you lose all the time you've invested in that character. All the stuff that character owned. The kicker being, you weren't out to PvP at all. The individuals that scream the loudest about wanting open PvP, full loot, and permadeath are also the ones that go out of their way to avoid a fair fight. You don't see many of those people playing EVE or entering into the PvP areas of most games. Why? Because EVE and most PvP areas are well balanced and offer a fair fight. They can't stand the idea of losing to someone that's just plain better at the game than they are. I love PvP, but there are time when I just want to hang out, grind up a few levels or skills, or just go on a quest with some friends. Sad truth is, griefers killed your "ideal" game. Since we can't trust some of you to play nice, we have to treat all of you like gankers. Honestly, it's better this way.
You hit the nail right on the head.. Most of these scrubs whinning about so Called Carebears are just cowards and will gank you with 10 of there friends or run from you if there friends are not around.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Try Irth Online, it's still in beta but I think it is what the O.P. is looking for. A place to gank defenseless n00bs and he can do that there till his hearts content. I'll be there defending said defenseless n00bs.
The problem is that both tastes cannot formed into a union and the implementation of both seems to be a 2*n sort of cost: Since you cannot have hardcore and PVE players on one server, each one would require it's own server...
The latter is only a simplification though: Many people actually prefer different degrees of each, so that to represent each preference in the spectrum would end up costing way too much to yield a profit.
However, another observation that I have made is that "Carebears" are generally inexperienced players that have yet to relinquish their need of their character's permanence; so that the market might simply be saturated with youngsters right now (especially with the house-hold name Blizzard releasing it's MMORPG giant... that has broken all records in the US as we know them).
I am sorry if it seems like a vapid generalization, but I had noticed during my RP play in NWN (on a RP-Hardcore server with generally permanent death and grinding advancement) and my time playing d2 HC that the players (even those that were in their teens) were more sophisticated and skilled than those in the same game that were playing the "soft-core" variants.
Please do not flame me for misconstruing my pathetic statistical argument, since I am not claiming that ALL PVE players are less skilled and sophisticated just that in those two cases it seemed to hold true.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe The problem isn't with PvP. The problem is with other people forcing PvP on me. Let's use UO but make it so that open PVP, full looting, stealing (pick pocketing), permadeath are implemented. You start off the game in a town under the protection of the town gaurds. You want to make money so you choose bowery and lumberjacking as your primary skills. You make umpteen thousand bows, get a nice little chunk of change and go to the NPC trainers to learn archery, stealth, camping, etc. You keep doing this for a little while in the comfort of the town and you meet some people in a guild that train you up a bit and take you on a few outings. After awhile, you're character is almost fully developed and you've run out of trainers, bot NPC and guildmates, that can help you boost your skills quickly. You have no choice but to practice. So you strike out of town to practice your non combat skills when you're attacked by a horde of PKers. They aren't as highly trained as you so they fall like blades of grass beneath your arrows. They do outnumber you though and eventually you fall. With that one ganking, you lose all the time you've invested in that character. All the stuff that character owned. The kicker being, you weren't out to PvP at all.
Wow, this was an unbelievable skewed sense of what UO is/was. First, ok you got ganked, so what? You lose everything in your pack, which was probably a weapon, some bandiads, and maybe some armor. You dont lose everything in your bank, you dont lose all your skills.
You're stereotyping PvP'ers because of people like Horsas. I dont want a full out deathmatch where its just non stop killing. I want a game where i can never be sure. Some shady character asks to join his group, i want to have to think about whether to join him, not just group up and dominate dumb AI mobs who hardly fight back. I want to fight for territory with other races, i want to fight for something meaningful. I dont want to group up with my friends and just gank newbies who have just started.
If i put together a group and go raid the enemys land, and your sitting there farming on some spawn, expect to die.
I dont like how if you dont feel completely safe killing/farming, you go crazy and yell griefer. If you dont want to have to watch your back for PKs when you leave the town, awesome, there are 100 games for you. But please dont play one of the FEW games that have a decent PvP, get ganked out of town and start whining. if you play a full pvp game, you should fix things for yourself. get a group together and go hunt that group down... when i died back in oldschool UO by a group of PK's .... i paid them all back with a group of my own, which happened to be some of the BEST experiences ive had in MMOs.
I could care less that the majority of people like to PvE in complete safety, and just grind all the way to the end... thats cool with me, you have lots of games to do this in. I for one am sick of having everything handed to me on a silver platter, and being compeltely safe in every mmorpg. The best times that I had in WoW were those which i was deep in a dungeon surrounded by MOBS trying to hack my way out, knowing i could die any second (and these feelings dont even come close to what PvP can offer.)
I would feel bad and draw many parallels with my attitude and the OP.
However, there are many PvP MMOs. There is no grouping/soloing PvE MMO (non-raiding enforcers MMO).
So it gave me more strengh despite the funny feeling I get when I read such posts. The day a MMO doesnt enforce raiding on non-raiders in a PvE setting, I swear I will stop my holy crusade!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
To me, this whole carebear thing is annoying to me, but in a different way.
Sure, PVP is one thing. I think PVP is a good thing in an MMORPG. But it's the little things that get to me. For example... let's look at this. You fight a mob. Yadda yadda yadda. Okay. Well, thing is, once you start fighting a mob in certain MMOs, it's locked only to you. Which means you have to go through an annoying "HELP!" process in order to allow others that are not in your group to fight it. This is not benaficial to either party, except that you might not die when that good samaratan kills the mob. Most of the time, you nor he will get XP for killing it. I think EQ2 works in this fashion.
Kill-stealing problems? Meh. In games that allow kill-stealing, I've never had much of a problem. Sure, there would be the occasional kill stealer here and there, but most of the time, I never had a problem with it.
In my opinion, this whole carebear attitude is reducing interactivity between players. And me, being a roleplayer, find this to be annoying.
Don't forget, carebears don't just affect PVP. It affects little things too.
The doll would surely say, "I do not want to be human!" although her master wants her to be even more.
Really I'm getting sick and tired of people complaining about "carebares" on these fourms. They should just lock these threads the moment they see them.
An open PvP system adds an element to the game that no AI mobs can give the game. I agree full heartedly with the OP here. SO many of you keep bitching at him for wanting a great PvP game. Why? Fact is, there is no great PvP fantasy style games that have came out in the last 3+ years. No PvP games anywhere close to the level of quality game as WoW, FF XI, EQ2, or others. He has a point that all the true super potential PvP games are being produced by very limited companies like Limitless Horizons (Mourning) and the 5 man company producing the jaw dropping "Darkfall".
You keep acting like he only wants a all PvP mmo so he can go grief newbs. LOL. Don't be silly. Perhaps all of you just simply don't want a real challenge in your mmos. Afterall, don't you all sit in these "carebear mmos" today and grief the living hell out of the poor mobs over and over and over and over? What's the matter carebears? Scared to actually have a challenge??
Look, a good mmo PvP game will have stiff consequences for griefer killing. A good mmo PvP game imo will have auto detection for a player killing the same poor guy so many times in a certain time period... and if he kills the same newb (unprovoked each time ofcourse) too frequently then perhaps a bolt of lighting will strike him dead... or better yet... Maybe the Gods will grant the poor guy "God's Revenge" the next time the bully comes to pick on him. And with this Gods Revenge, he will be able to easily vaporize this one bully and it will be totally unexpected by the griefer type of player. And while the poor guy dropped only his backpack loot, maybe the griefer type will lose EVERYTHING including his equiped junk on his corpse for the poor guy to loot and run off with laughing. A good PvP mmo will be like UO used to be in the fact that "red" murderer type of characters won't be allowed in the towns without being killed by guards. And maybe all creatures of both evil and good nature will attack him on sight as opposed to only evil mobs. Wouldn't it suck to be a red player in the woods fighting a huge troll in a close battle when all of a sudden a wolf and a grizzly bear attack you only cuz of your evil con and cause your battle with the troll to sway to your death?
You carebears just don't understand how much fun real PvP is. It actually adds a challenge to the game. it actually makes your heart thump when you see the unexpected red attack you just after you just killed a dragon and got that sweet new sword too! Oh my! And if you do die... you sooooo wanna get revenge. If you can't do it, you are overwhlemed with desire to go and get some other players to come and help you. This is the kindof gameplay that even the best and smartest AI mobs can never touch.
We don't want friggin Quake 4. Shut the hell up with the "go play an fps" crap already. We just want a real good mmo, without all this gimped up super stream-lined gameplay without any risk what-so-ever. Risk=Reward=total fun. The more risk, the more fun... and the more reward. Just think how much better you'll feel after you kill a real prick, evil and high-level pker that's killed you 17 times in the last week - or - camping the same mob and killing him for the 178,000th time while you grind some more as you fall asleep at the keyboard eating another twinkie with NO risk what-so-ever.
When a major company thinks an open pvp game will turn a profit they will make one. Till then it will be smaller groups like the guys doing Darkfall who will fill the small market.
PvPers turn off casual players with attitudes like we see in every single one of these thread. Try fighting and winning with honor (ie no smack talk, don't put them down as noobs. Always tell them good fight. Don't gank) and you will find more casual players are willing to give PvP a try. PvPers are the reason PvP can't get a foot hold on the market. You need to win over the casual players and you don't do that with "omg I so pwned you! you stuck you stupid noob". No, they so pwned you because they just /canceled and the chances a major company will make an open PvP game went down.
Originally posted by horrid When a major company thinks an open pvp game will turn a profit they will make one. Till then it will be smaller groups like the guys doing Darkfall who will fill the small market. PvPers turn off casual players with attitudes like we see in every single one of these thread. Try fighting and winning with honor (ie no smack talk, don't put them down as noobs. Always tell them good fight. Don't gank) and you will find more casual players are willing to give PvP a try. PvPers are the reason PvP can't get a foot hold on the market. You need to win over the casual players and you don't do that with "omg I so pwned you! you stuck you stupid noob". No, they so pwned you because they just /canceled and the chances a major company will make an open PvP game went down.
Actually, the original post doesn't ask for a full PvP game. It seems to just attack every game that lacks full PvP and the people that play it. If there is enough demand for such a game, I'm sure it'll come out if Roma Victor (which I've heard bandied about some) isn't it.
I agree with some other people in this thread, this discussion is years old and its just an excuse to throw a (hopelessly meaningless) area-wide insult. How cool is it to demean people for playing games without a lot of competition? Do you call people playing Minesweeper and Tetris and Solitaire carebears too? A lot of people, just maybe, don't demand infinity in gameplay. Mostly I just demand entertainment, last time I checked, a game was a vehicle for delivering entertainment. If it fails for some reason to deliver the sweet luxurious fun for some reason then it is denying its final cause (which I figure is either people having fun with it or making the developers moeny).
The point is, this "carebear" phenomena is being treated like a force of nature or a vast conspiracy. The way I see it, the only true explanation is that there is a mainstream demand for games with less PvP and fewer risks. Because there are people that don't enjoy MMO style Player-vs-Player, for whatever reason. Developers aren't out to please you or me, they're out to get the least common denominator, right? If you want to make money (which is basically the idea of selling games), you don't make an MMO that fewer people will like.
I have my own reasons, which I might as well put down.
I hate money grinding. It is boring. Equipment is usually expensive and you usually need a "hodjillion" in some tradeskill to make armor and weapons that are practical for you to wear. Losing equipment to PvP means I have to money grind and pay some person who has probably just played longer than I have.
Also, I don't believe in combat systems, really. They've usually got some exploits. They're usually unbalanced somehow. Mostly in the games I've played it doesn't take creativeness to win, it takes experience points, reading guides, and expensive items. Dying because my chosen profession isn't good at PvP or because I'm not twinked enough just doesn't appeal to me.
Ok so right now in this phase of MMO history, there are more games with less risk and less PvP. So, that'll probably change. People playing lighter weight games now might become interested in trying others. My feeling is that it'd be for the best if games were more sharply divided between PvP and PvE, since the half-way systems don't seem to work for anyone.
I was making an example through hypothosis. I was saying that IF UO had full open PvP and IF UO had full looting and IF UO had perma death then the example I laid out was the result.
You're stereotyping PvP'ers because of people like Horsas.
Stereotypes are not born in a vacuum. Especially when MMORPGs have only been a major player in the gaming industry for 7 years. I like PvP as much as you doob, but it was griefers what killed FFA games, end of story.
I could care less that the majority of people like to PvE in complete safety, and just grind all the way to the end
And this is the problem. You don't respect anybody else's opinion so why the hell should they respect yours. If it wasn't verboten here, I'd point you to a few FFA pirate servers and let you see for yourself what it's all really about.
zaxtor99 wrote:
Perhaps all of you just simply don't want a real challenge in your mmos
Challenge is fine and dandy. A one sided public beating is another bag of shit altogether. I could live with that if the game is about skill. RPGs are about levels and loot. Strategy and skill don't ever enter the picture. The two exceptions to this rule seem to be Nox and Guild Wars. The former isn't even an MMORPG and the latter only barely qualifies. There is a way to make a well balanced and challenging RPG based around PvP. It looks alot like Diablo and I'll be the first to admit that it can be a blast to play. But the challenge is based on the way it plays not on harsh punishments for the loser. Sinistar was the hardest arcade game in history and I probably put several thousand dollars worth of quarters into it. Death wasn't permanent in that game and the penalty for losing was just 25 cents. In fact, losing was gaurenteed and I still played it. You don't have to risk endless hours of gameplay to make a game challenging.
You carebears just don't understand how much fun real PvP is
That's funny since you'll be hard pressed to find anyone on this board that hasn't enjoyed a FPS deathmatch or a multiplayer RTS game. I'm sure that quite a number of these "carebears" have also played PvP on NWN servers several times as well. We all dig a well balanced, fair fight now and again. But non-consensual PvP is alot like making assault with intent legal. There is a reason that we impose stiff penalties for that sort of thing in the real world. That is also the same reason why we try to herd the PvP players into their own areas.
Risk=Reward=total fun. The more risk, the more fun... and the more reward
If that's the case, then maybe the companies should make the servers FFA permadeath and require you to wager your life savings against your ability to stay alive. Or better yet, require that you ingest cyanide capsules when you're character bites it. That would be REAL fun now wouldn't it
It's oh so easy to use generic baseless derogatory terms to make an argument when someone didn't get their way. Games developers have decided to go a certain way because it either a) is more economically viable or b) it's consistent with their game design. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a deluded. This non-pvper vs pvper discussion has been going on for over 10 years and I'm yet to see anyone bring anything new to the table.
Jimmy, you continue to argue points that make you seem like you think that NO PVP at all is your style of MMO. And you keep bringing up friggin' FPS games. MMOs are nothing like FPS games even when they are total PvP oriented.
Let me ask you one question Jimmy. And be honest. Have you ever played Ultima Online? I mean "pre-Trammel" UO? And got into it? And if so... what's better? Pre-Trammel UO or The UO today?
My guess is that if you ever played UO, you love UO with Trammel now so you can hide out in the safety of Trammel and NEVER go to Felucia... even though the mobs and spawns of all gathered items is double that of Trammel. Again I point to my "more risk = more reward" even in todays UO. But all the kinds of players like you seem to be just hate Player VS Player. Ofcourse you only like "consensual PvP". That way there is no surprise in it, you won't lose a damn thing if you do die, and you can always say NO to it if you don't think you have the best odds to win. I won't say "lame" to this... but I will say for me this is "Insanely boring" Ugh. Hell Jimmy... since you love this consensual crap so much you preach about, I think we should implement "consensual PvE" in all the mmos today too. That way, the computer controlled mob you wanna fight has the opportunity to say NO and then you can't possibly attack him. That way if the poor mob sees that you are higher level and being a puss just wanting to camp the same spot and kill him over and over and over and over, he can disagree and YOU CAN'T TOUCH HIM! Wow. That would be fun, huh? I mean seriously, as long as we are going to all this nicer, gentler, softer and padded mmo style.. hell we need to be nice and fair to the poor mobs too! Consensual PvE for all you "soft, no risk mmo" lovers. The mobs get the opportunity to say NO if they see you are "gimp camping" yet again just trying to kill them over and over and over for lame exp and loot. And then you can't touch them.
Hell, while we are making mmos softer, let's also make it so you can't possibly die ever. No one can ever DIE. Cuz I mean thats sooo "harsh". I know that in todays mmos, you don't lose anything at all when you die, and games like EQ2 even show you a golden ray of light back to your corpse so that you don't even have to "try" to remember where you were when you died. But that's still too rough. I mean gosh. Lets make it so you can't possibly ever die to a mob. How unfair! Hell lets not even have to fight for the loot. Cuz then you might actually have to stop and rest and heal or find a heal spell or something. What a royal pain in the ass! Lets stop all the mobs altogether. Instead we can just sit back and do nothing from now on and let uber loot drop from the skies into our packs!! WOW! That would mean NO CHALLENGE AT ALL! YAY!
Let me ask you one question Jimmy. And be honest. Have you ever played Ultima Online? I mean "pre-Trammel" UO? And got into it?
<sigh> Yes I played UO during the Second Age expansion. PvP was a total non-issue in my opinion of the game. I was on the Chesapeake server which had a very mature community and zero tolerance for griefers. The fact that I kept a full stock of exploding potions and could cut anyone down in two strokes of my axe helped alot too though. Theft was the biggest problem in that game and I can't count the number of times that I got run out of town by the guards after I was forced to kill two or three people that were obviously trying to pick my pockets. In one town, an NPC actually called the gaurds out because some people were tyring to loot me and didn't respond until I killed one of the thieves. Add a truely horrible interface to the mix and you see why I jumped right on to Asheron's Call and left UO in the dust.
Ofcourse you only like "consensual PvP". That way there is no surprise in it, you won't lose a damn thing if you do die, and you can always say NO to it if you don't think you have the best odds to win.
As opposed to jumping someone totally unaware when you know that you can't lose? This one cuts both ways buddy. Of course I'm always willing to wager on PvP. But I'm guessing that you would be against a wagering system too. Even if the system were to wager items at random from your inventory and bank. Some people are just never happy I guess......
Hell, while we are making mmos softer, let's also make it so you can't possibly die ever.
When has it ever been otherwise? Even the Darktide server on AC respawned people after they "died". In UO, there were NPCs that you had to find to be rezed. Being able to return from the dead is the same as being immortal. I'll agree that death doesn't mean anything in these games. I'll even agree that people act like fucktards because of the lack of consequence. But to somehow believe that challenge comes from punishment for failure rather than solid game design is a total crock of shit. You can be pushed to the limits of your skill without having electical shock administered to your nuts every time you make a mistake.
Look, I understand why some people despise PvP. Really, I do. I understand how getting ganked at the most crucial moment in your adventuring, losing all your best stuff and having to start over getting new armor blows. I've been there... many times. But that also adds an element to the game that makes it challenging, and full of surprise, and a real adventure no matter where you go, or what you do.
I don't agree with the trash talking. Or with the same level 50 dickhead killing a lvl 3 newb fifty-two times just because the newb won't join his guild or what-ever. That crap is lame, inmature and pointless and I will agree can take away a players fun in the game. I understand.
Griefing is everywhere in mmos. If it isn't the problems I stated above in mmos, you always have inmature people playing the damn games. In non pvp games, you still have plenty of problem makers. These are the losers spamming stuff about your momma in town just because you won't buy their over-priced armor they wanna sell. Or the punks that come into your mob camping spot and kill your mobs when the mobs are not even worth killing to them. They kill the mobs with 1 hit and laugh because they are taking away your mobs. It comes in all forms, PvP or non PvP mmos.
My way of looking at it is like this... It's worth it to let them gank me in all PvP worlds. I WANT to have the freedom as well to outsmart them and get revenge. And when I do, I don't want it to be "consensual fighting", lol. I wanna kick these punks asses for whatever kinda punk crap they are pulling... whether it's spamming BS in town and annoying the hell outta everyone, or because they killed me 17 times while I was trying to mine some metal last weekend. And this is a challenge and adventure that no mobs in all PvE worlds can bring to the table. I like total freedom in my mmos. And to get that, this also means that other players have this same freedom. But at the same time, I do think that life for random pkers should be very hard and have a huge price to pay for the way they play.
Some of you read what I write and think I'm the power leveler who only wants PvP so i can go around and kill newbs then talk trash. That is the furtherst way from the way I play. I always seem to play the "good guy" (again, because this is even more challenging). I fall 17 times to some punk pk. I lose a lot of junk. I learn in the process to equip less or to trap my armor or whatever. Maybe next time I see him come after me, I'll surprise him with 4 of my friends that were set up hiding waiting for his attack and we all laugh as the tables are turned. This to me is what's fun. Anyone can sit and camp mobs all day long. So to me games like Wow, even though very well produced just gets boring too fast.. and would be much more interesting, addictive, and immersive if they allowed players the freedom to kill other players... even with stiff penalties for pk'ing without being provoked.
Everyone has their own opinions. I just can't understand how such a huge percentage of people choose Trammel in UO over Felucia. This really blows my mind. No wonder none of the big game makers are making PvP games when so many of you hate PvP so damn much. It boggles my mind how I'm such a rare breed in the mmo community with my prefrences for hardcore PvP gaming. It seems to me that at some point, some of your PvE lovers would get tired of camping mobs all day or questing all day and you'd want the challenge that only comes from a real PvP mmo.
My way of looking at it is like this... It's worth it to let them gank me in all PvP worlds. I WANT to have the freedom as well to outsmart them and get revenge. And when I do, I don't want it to be "consensual fighting", lol. I wanna kick these punks asses for whatever kinda punk crap they are pulling...
This is a maturity issue. At some point we all have to realize that nothing we say or do will stop some people from being assholes. If someone yells profanities at me in public, kicking that person's ass doesn't change the fact that they are a dickhead. The only time I bother in RL is when someone threatens the well being of my family or myself. Otherwise I let it be. In an MMO, we can just open "hardcore" FFA servers for these people to occupy their time in. It's when you start telling people that ALL servers should be FFA and permadeath that you get all this backlash. Most people are willing to make room for you but you seem unwilling to make room for others in return. And of course, blaming the sad quality of MMO's on people that don't share your views doesn't help either. I don't think any of the current MMOs out there would have any problem with setting up a FFA perma death server for their customers. But that's not enough for you, is it? You want to force everyone to play your way. That's just not going to happen. Live with it.
No wonder none of the big game makers are making PvP games when so many of you hate PvP so damn much.
Actually Zax, they aren't making PvP MMORPGs because they aren't really sure how. In FPS and RTS games, there are usually a small, finite number of elements that can be analysed against one another fairly quickly to determine how well they stack up against one another. In an RPG, there can be literally thousands and thousands of different weapons, spells, and items. There is really no way to play test all the possiblities of a typical RPG in 2 to 5 years. This requires a new kind of game theory analysis that just hasn't been commercially developed yet. Another thing to consider is all the different ways players can compete in an RPG. They can race to finish a level up and finish a quest (Legend of The Red Dragon style), they can compete as merchants trying to get the greatest share of a given in-game market, players can even play politics within their guild or faction if the game allows it. PvP is more than just combat and modern RPG developers just don't know how to cover it all. When they do, you'll see all kinds of really great MMO PvP games.
Comments
Lineage 2.
I would play that game if I could kill a player and take all their loot. But you can't. When you kill a player in that game you gain nothing and the player loses experience I believe which is stupid. I'd rather kill a player and get all their items so I have something to gain.
In L2 you can delevel as well which is the lamest concept. The grind is so harsh you have to seriously be an idiot to play that game for 12 months to finally PVP. In PVP you get nothing.
That's so PvP freaks like you don't go around killing level 5 n00bies. It makes perfect sense.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
OP:
If you have such a hard on for PVP go play Shadowbane. Enjoy your "full" pvp.
Just face the fact that the majority of gamers don't get off on PVP solely, take your ritalin and relax.
Now for a real solution, go play a FPS. RPGs are not shooters.
What's funny about "carebear" is that most people that use it tend to be the worst offenders... they won't bother with a real challenge like someone higher level than them but they will certainly jump on a person that has no chance to win.
BTW: If you haven't noticed, there are more PVP games out now than there ever has been.
So grab that plush bedtime carebear next to your monitor and give it a squeese OP, mommie feels sorry for you.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
I think the OP needs to find a job beating dead horses. He'd make millions.
The problem isn't with PvP. The problem is with other people forcing PvP on me. Let's use UO but make it so that open PVP, full looting, stealing (pick pocketing), permadeath are implemented. You start off the game in a town under the protection of the town gaurds. You want to make money so you choose bowery and lumberjacking as your primary skills. You make umpteen thousand bows, get a nice little chunk of change and go to the NPC trainers to learn archery, stealth, camping, etc. You keep doing this for a little while in the comfort of the town and you meet some people in a guild that train you up a bit and take you on a few outings. After awhile, you're character is almost fully developed and you've run out of trainers, bot NPC and guildmates, that can help you boost your skills quickly. You have no choice but to practice. So you strike out of town to practice your non combat skills when you're attacked by a horde of PKers. They aren't as highly trained as you so they fall like blades of grass beneath your arrows. They do outnumber you though and eventually you fall. With that one ganking, you lose all the time you've invested in that character. All the stuff that character owned. The kicker being, you weren't out to PvP at all.
The individuals that scream the loudest about wanting open PvP, full loot, and permadeath are also the ones that go out of their way to avoid a fair fight. You don't see many of those people playing EVE or entering into the PvP areas of most games. Why? Because EVE and most PvP areas are well balanced and offer a fair fight. They can't stand the idea of losing to someone that's just plain better at the game than they are. I love PvP, but there are time when I just want to hang out, grind up a few levels or skills, or just go on a quest with some friends. Sad truth is, griefers killed your "ideal" game. Since we can't trust some of you to play nice, we have to treat all of you like gankers. Honestly, it's better this way.
I agree with you on the fact that PVP can be fun and entertaining.. However many people tend to shy away from PVP due to the fact that some games out there set no limits on it.. FFA might be fun for some, but it can be fustrating for others.. This is the internet and people will get away with what ever you let them, PVP MMORPG's need to keep that in mind.. Having a person(s)5 0 levels higher then you running around and ganking you is not fun, not for the gankee...
Maybe if people would actually find the "tough" fight and not try to kill something that presents no challenge things would be better. But as I said this is the internet, and it tends to bring the worst out in people. My best time in a PVP game was with Anarchy Online (pre-shadowlands) it had a level Tier, meaning a person a certain amount of levels could not attack the others.. Was PVP boring? Hell no it was fun and exiciting, due to the fact taht everone was around the same level and we didnt have to worry about 1 side brining in a level 200 to 1 shot the other side. I guess you can say it was Fair PVP, but sadly most gamers do not want that.. They seem to want to take the cowards way out.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Why do you keep wondering from forum to forum complaining?
Try Irth Online, it's still in beta but I think it is what the O.P. is looking for. A place to gank defenseless n00bs and he can do that there till his hearts content. I'll be there defending said defenseless n00bs.
The problem is that both tastes cannot formed into a union and the implementation of both seems to be a 2*n sort of cost: Since you cannot have hardcore and PVE players on one server, each one would require it's own server...
The latter is only a simplification though: Many people actually prefer different degrees of each, so that to represent each preference in the spectrum would end up costing way too much to yield a profit.
However, another observation that I have made is that "Carebears" are generally inexperienced players that have yet to relinquish their need of their character's permanence; so that the market might simply be saturated with youngsters right now (especially with the house-hold name Blizzard releasing it's MMORPG giant... that has broken all records in the US as we know them).
I am sorry if it seems like a vapid generalization, but I had noticed during my RP play in NWN (on a RP-Hardcore server with generally permanent death and grinding advancement) and my time playing d2 HC that the players (even those that were in their teens) were more sophisticated and skilled than those in the same game that were playing the "soft-core" variants.
Please do not flame me for misconstruing my pathetic statistical argument, since I am not claiming that ALL PVE players are less skilled and sophisticated just that in those two cases it seemed to hold true.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Hello, troll!
Wow, this was an unbelievable skewed sense of what UO is/was. First, ok you got ganked, so what? You lose everything in your pack, which was probably a weapon, some bandiads, and maybe some armor. You dont lose everything in your bank, you dont lose all your skills.
You're stereotyping PvP'ers because of people like Horsas. I dont want a full out deathmatch where its just non stop killing. I want a game where i can never be sure. Some shady character asks to join his group, i want to have to think about whether to join him, not just group up and dominate dumb AI mobs who hardly fight back. I want to fight for territory with other races, i want to fight for something meaningful. I dont want to group up with my friends and just gank newbies who have just started.
If i put together a group and go raid the enemys land, and your sitting there farming on some spawn, expect to die.
I dont like how if you dont feel completely safe killing/farming, you go crazy and yell griefer. If you dont want to have to watch your back for PKs when you leave the town, awesome, there are 100 games for you. But please dont play one of the FEW games that have a decent PvP, get ganked out of town and start whining. if you play a full pvp game, you should fix things for yourself. get a group together and go hunt that group down... when i died back in oldschool UO by a group of PK's .... i paid them all back with a group of my own, which happened to be some of the BEST experiences ive had in MMOs.
I could care less that the majority of people like to PvE in complete safety, and just grind all the way to the end... thats cool with me, you have lots of games to do this in. I for one am sick of having everything handed to me on a silver platter, and being compeltely safe in every mmorpg. The best times that I had in WoW were those which i was deep in a dungeon surrounded by MOBS trying to hack my way out, knowing i could die any second (and these feelings dont even come close to what PvP can offer.)
I would feel bad and draw many parallels with my attitude and the OP.
However, there are many PvP MMOs. There is no grouping/soloing PvE MMO (non-raiding enforcers MMO).
So it gave me more strengh despite the funny feeling I get when I read such posts. The day a MMO doesnt enforce raiding on non-raiders in a PvE setting, I swear I will stop my holy crusade!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I have this to say.
To me, this whole carebear thing is annoying to me, but in a different way.
Sure, PVP is one thing. I think PVP is a good thing in an MMORPG. But it's the little things that get to me. For example... let's look at this. You fight a mob. Yadda yadda yadda. Okay. Well, thing is, once you start fighting a mob in certain MMOs, it's locked only to you. Which means you have to go through an annoying "HELP!" process in order to allow others that are not in your group to fight it. This is not benaficial to either party, except that you might not die when that good samaratan kills the mob. Most of the time, you nor he will get XP for killing it. I think EQ2 works in this fashion.
Kill-stealing problems? Meh. In games that allow kill-stealing, I've never had much of a problem. Sure, there would be the occasional kill stealer here and there, but most of the time, I never had a problem with it.
In my opinion, this whole carebear attitude is reducing interactivity between players. And me, being a roleplayer, find this to be annoying.
Don't forget, carebears don't just affect PVP. It affects little things too.
The doll would surely say, "I do not want to be human!" although her master wants her to be even more.
Really I'm getting sick and tired of people complaining about "carebares" on these fourms. They should just lock these threads the moment they see them.
First of all....
An open PvP system adds an element to the game that no AI mobs can give the game. I agree full heartedly with the OP here. SO many of you keep bitching at him for wanting a great PvP game. Why? Fact is, there is no great PvP fantasy style games that have came out in the last 3+ years. No PvP games anywhere close to the level of quality game as WoW, FF XI, EQ2, or others. He has a point that all the true super potential PvP games are being produced by very limited companies like Limitless Horizons (Mourning) and the 5 man company producing the jaw dropping "Darkfall".
You keep acting like he only wants a all PvP mmo so he can go grief newbs. LOL. Don't be silly. Perhaps all of you just simply don't want a real challenge in your mmos. Afterall, don't you all sit in these "carebear mmos" today and grief the living hell out of the poor mobs over and over and over and over? What's the matter carebears? Scared to actually have a challenge??
Look, a good mmo PvP game will have stiff consequences for griefer killing. A good mmo PvP game imo will have auto detection for a player killing the same poor guy so many times in a certain time period... and if he kills the same newb (unprovoked each time ofcourse) too frequently then perhaps a bolt of lighting will strike him dead... or better yet... Maybe the Gods will grant the poor guy "God's Revenge" the next time the bully comes to pick on him. And with this Gods Revenge, he will be able to easily vaporize this one bully and it will be totally unexpected by the griefer type of player. And while the poor guy dropped only his backpack loot, maybe the griefer type will lose EVERYTHING including his equiped junk on his corpse for the poor guy to loot and run off with laughing. A good PvP mmo will be like UO used to be in the fact that "red" murderer type of characters won't be allowed in the towns without being killed by guards. And maybe all creatures of both evil and good nature will attack him on sight as opposed to only evil mobs. Wouldn't it suck to be a red player in the woods fighting a huge troll in a close battle when all of a sudden a wolf and a grizzly bear attack you only cuz of your evil con and cause your battle with the troll to sway to your death?
You carebears just don't understand how much fun real PvP is. It actually adds a challenge to the game. it actually makes your heart thump when you see the unexpected red attack you just after you just killed a dragon and got that sweet new sword too! Oh my! And if you do die... you sooooo wanna get revenge. If you can't do it, you are overwhlemed with desire to go and get some other players to come and help you. This is the kindof gameplay that even the best and smartest AI mobs can never touch.
We don't want friggin Quake 4. Shut the hell up with the "go play an fps" crap already. We just want a real good mmo, without all this gimped up super stream-lined gameplay without any risk what-so-ever. Risk=Reward=total fun. The more risk, the more fun... and the more reward. Just think how much better you'll feel after you kill a real prick, evil and high-level pker that's killed you 17 times in the last week - or - camping the same mob and killing him for the 178,000th time while you grind some more as you fall asleep at the keyboard eating another twinkie with NO risk what-so-ever.
That's my opinion as I stand 100% behind the OP.
- Zaxx
When a major company thinks an open pvp game will turn a profit they will make one. Till then it will be smaller groups like the guys doing Darkfall who will fill the small market.
PvPers turn off casual players with attitudes like we see in every single one of these thread. Try fighting and winning with honor (ie no smack talk, don't put them down as noobs. Always tell them good fight. Don't gank) and you will find more casual players are willing to give PvP a try. PvPers are the reason PvP can't get a foot hold on the market. You need to win over the casual players and you don't do that with "omg I so pwned you! you stuck you stupid noob". No, they so pwned you because they just /canceled and the chances a major company will make an open PvP game went down.
Actually, the original post doesn't ask for a full PvP game. It seems to just attack every game that lacks full PvP and the people that play it. If there is enough demand for such a game, I'm sure it'll come out if Roma Victor (which I've heard bandied about some) isn't it.
I agree with some other people in this thread, this discussion is years old and its just an excuse to throw a (hopelessly meaningless) area-wide insult. How cool is it to demean people for playing games without a lot of competition? Do you call people playing Minesweeper and Tetris and Solitaire carebears too? A lot of people, just maybe, don't demand infinity in gameplay. Mostly I just demand entertainment, last time I checked, a game was a vehicle for delivering entertainment. If it fails for some reason to deliver the sweet luxurious fun for some reason then it is denying its final cause (which I figure is either people having fun with it or making the developers moeny).
The point is, this "carebear" phenomena is being treated like a force of nature or a vast conspiracy. The way I see it, the only true explanation is that there is a mainstream demand for games with less PvP and fewer risks. Because there are people that don't enjoy MMO style Player-vs-Player, for whatever reason. Developers aren't out to please you or me, they're out to get the least common denominator, right? If you want to make money (which is basically the idea of selling games), you don't make an MMO that fewer people will like.
I have my own reasons, which I might as well put down.
I hate money grinding. It is boring. Equipment is usually expensive and you usually need a "hodjillion" in some tradeskill to make armor and weapons that are practical for you to wear. Losing equipment to PvP means I have to money grind and pay some person who has probably just played longer than I have.
Also, I don't believe in combat systems, really. They've usually got some exploits. They're usually unbalanced somehow. Mostly in the games I've played it doesn't take creativeness to win, it takes experience points, reading guides, and expensive items. Dying because my chosen profession isn't good at PvP or because I'm not twinked enough just doesn't appeal to me.
Ok so right now in this phase of MMO history, there are more games with less risk and less PvP. So, that'll probably change. People playing lighter weight games now might become interested in trying others. My feeling is that it'd be for the best if games were more sharply divided between PvP and PvE, since the half-way systems don't seem to work for anyone.
doobster wrote:
First, ok you got ganked, so what?
I was making an example through hypothosis. I was saying that IF UO had full open PvP and IF UO had full looting and IF UO had perma death then the example I laid out was the result.
You're stereotyping PvP'ers because of people like Horsas.
Stereotypes are not born in a vacuum. Especially when MMORPGs have only been a major player in the gaming industry for 7 years. I like PvP as much as you doob, but it was griefers what killed FFA games, end of story.
I could care less that the majority of people like to PvE in complete safety, and just grind all the way to the end
And this is the problem. You don't respect anybody else's opinion so why the hell should they respect yours. If it wasn't verboten here, I'd point you to a few FFA pirate servers and let you see for yourself what it's all really about.
zaxtor99 wrote:
Perhaps all of you just simply don't want a real challenge in your mmos
Challenge is fine and dandy. A one sided public beating is another bag of shit altogether. I could live with that if the game is about skill. RPGs are about levels and loot. Strategy and skill don't ever enter the picture. The two exceptions to this rule seem to be Nox and Guild Wars. The former isn't even an MMORPG and the latter only barely qualifies. There is a way to make a well balanced and challenging RPG based around PvP. It looks alot like Diablo and I'll be the first to admit that it can be a blast to play. But the challenge is based on the way it plays not on harsh punishments for the loser. Sinistar was the hardest arcade game in history and I probably put several thousand dollars worth of quarters into it. Death wasn't permanent in that game and the penalty for losing was just 25 cents. In fact, losing was gaurenteed and I still played it. You don't have to risk endless hours of gameplay to make a game challenging.
You carebears just don't understand how much fun real PvP is
That's funny since you'll be hard pressed to find anyone on this board that hasn't enjoyed a FPS deathmatch or a multiplayer RTS game. I'm sure that quite a number of these "carebears" have also played PvP on NWN servers several times as well. We all dig a well balanced, fair fight now and again. But non-consensual PvP is alot like making assault with intent legal. There is a reason that we impose stiff penalties for that sort of thing in the real world. That is also the same reason why we try to herd the PvP players into their own areas.
Risk=Reward=total fun. The more risk, the more fun... and the more reward
If that's the case, then maybe the companies should make the servers FFA permadeath and require you to wager your life savings against your ability to stay alive. Or better yet, require that you ingest cyanide capsules when you're character bites it. That would be REAL fun now wouldn't it
The PvP in Dark and Light looks interesting, can't wait to play it. The only other PvPing I've ever done was in WoW
It's oh so easy to use generic baseless derogatory terms to make an argument when someone didn't get their way. Games developers have decided to go a certain way because it either a) is more economically viable or b) it's consistent with their game design. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a deluded. This non-pvper vs pvper discussion has been going on for over 10 years and I'm yet to see anyone bring anything new to the table.
Jimmy, you continue to argue points that make you seem like you think that NO PVP at all is your style of MMO. And you keep bringing up friggin' FPS games. MMOs are nothing like FPS games even when they are total PvP oriented.
Let me ask you one question Jimmy. And be honest. Have you ever played Ultima Online? I mean "pre-Trammel" UO? And got into it? And if so... what's better? Pre-Trammel UO or The UO today?
My guess is that if you ever played UO, you love UO with Trammel now so you can hide out in the safety of Trammel and NEVER go to Felucia... even though the mobs and spawns of all gathered items is double that of Trammel. Again I point to my "more risk = more reward" even in todays UO. But all the kinds of players like you seem to be just hate Player VS Player. Ofcourse you only like "consensual PvP". That way there is no surprise in it, you won't lose a damn thing if you do die, and you can always say NO to it if you don't think you have the best odds to win. I won't say "lame" to this... but I will say for me this is "Insanely boring" Ugh. Hell Jimmy... since you love this consensual crap so much you preach about, I think we should implement "consensual PvE" in all the mmos today too. That way, the computer controlled mob you wanna fight has the opportunity to say NO and then you can't possibly attack him. That way if the poor mob sees that you are higher level and being a puss just wanting to camp the same spot and kill him over and over and over and over, he can disagree and YOU CAN'T TOUCH HIM! Wow. That would be fun, huh? I mean seriously, as long as we are going to all this nicer, gentler, softer and padded mmo style.. hell we need to be nice and fair to the poor mobs too! Consensual PvE for all you "soft, no risk mmo" lovers. The mobs get the opportunity to say NO if they see you are "gimp camping" yet again just trying to kill them over and over and over for lame exp and loot. And then you can't touch them.
Hell, while we are making mmos softer, let's also make it so you can't possibly die ever. No one can ever DIE. Cuz I mean thats sooo "harsh". I know that in todays mmos, you don't lose anything at all when you die, and games like EQ2 even show you a golden ray of light back to your corpse so that you don't even have to "try" to remember where you were when you died. But that's still too rough. I mean gosh. Lets make it so you can't possibly ever die to a mob. How unfair! Hell lets not even have to fight for the loot. Cuz then you might actually have to stop and rest and heal or find a heal spell or something. What a royal pain in the ass! Lets stop all the mobs altogether. Instead we can just sit back and do nothing from now on and let uber loot drop from the skies into our packs!! WOW! That would mean NO CHALLENGE AT ALL! YAY!
...Hehe. Naw, I'm not sarcastic at all
- Zaxx
zaxtor99 wrote:
Let me ask you one question Jimmy. And be honest. Have you ever played Ultima Online? I mean "pre-Trammel" UO? And got into it?
<sigh> Yes I played UO during the Second Age expansion. PvP was a total non-issue in my opinion of the game. I was on the Chesapeake server which had a very mature community and zero tolerance for griefers. The fact that I kept a full stock of exploding potions and could cut anyone down in two strokes of my axe helped alot too though. Theft was the biggest problem in that game and I can't count the number of times that I got run out of town by the guards after I was forced to kill two or three people that were obviously trying to pick my pockets. In one town, an NPC actually called the gaurds out because some people were tyring to loot me and didn't respond until I killed one of the thieves. Add a truely horrible interface to the mix and you see why I jumped right on to Asheron's Call and left UO in the dust.
Ofcourse you only like "consensual PvP". That way there is no surprise in it, you won't lose a damn thing if you do die, and you can always say NO to it if you don't think you have the best odds to win.
As opposed to jumping someone totally unaware when you know that you can't lose? This one cuts both ways buddy. Of course I'm always willing to wager on PvP. But I'm guessing that you would be against a wagering system too. Even if the system were to wager items at random from your inventory and bank. Some people are just never happy I guess......
Hell, while we are making mmos softer, let's also make it so you can't possibly die ever.
When has it ever been otherwise? Even the Darktide server on AC respawned people after they "died". In UO, there were NPCs that you had to find to be rezed. Being able to return from the dead is the same as being immortal. I'll agree that death doesn't mean anything in these games. I'll even agree that people act like fucktards because of the lack of consequence. But to somehow believe that challenge comes from punishment for failure rather than solid game design is a total crock of shit. You can be pushed to the limits of your skill without having electical shock administered to your nuts every time you make a mistake.
Look, I understand why some people despise PvP. Really, I do. I understand how getting ganked at the most crucial moment in your adventuring, losing all your best stuff and having to start over getting new armor blows. I've been there... many times. But that also adds an element to the game that makes it challenging, and full of surprise, and a real adventure no matter where you go, or what you do.
I don't agree with the trash talking. Or with the same level 50 dickhead killing a lvl 3 newb fifty-two times just because the newb won't join his guild or what-ever. That crap is lame, inmature and pointless and I will agree can take away a players fun in the game. I understand.
Griefing is everywhere in mmos. If it isn't the problems I stated above in mmos, you always have inmature people playing the damn games. In non pvp games, you still have plenty of problem makers. These are the losers spamming stuff about your momma in town just because you won't buy their over-priced armor they wanna sell. Or the punks that come into your mob camping spot and kill your mobs when the mobs are
not even worth killing to them. They kill the mobs with 1 hit and laugh because they are taking away your mobs. It comes in all forms, PvP or non PvP mmos.
My way of looking at it is like this... It's worth it to let them gank me in all PvP worlds. I WANT to have the freedom as well to outsmart them and get revenge. And when I do, I don't want it to be "consensual fighting", lol. I wanna kick these punks asses for whatever kinda punk crap they are pulling... whether it's spamming BS in town and annoying the hell outta everyone, or because they killed me 17 times while I was trying to mine some metal last weekend. And this is a challenge and adventure that no mobs in all PvE worlds can bring to the table. I like total freedom in my mmos. And to get that, this also means that other players have this same freedom. But at the same time, I do think that life for random pkers should be very hard and have a huge price to pay for the way they play.
Some of you read what I write and think I'm the power leveler who only wants PvP so i can go around and kill newbs then talk trash. That is the furtherst way from the way I play. I always seem to play the "good guy" (again, because this is even more challenging). I fall 17 times to some punk pk. I lose a lot of junk. I learn in the process to equip less or to trap my armor or whatever. Maybe next time I see him come after me, I'll surprise him with 4 of my friends that were set up hiding waiting for his attack and we all laugh as the tables are turned. This to me is what's fun. Anyone can sit and camp mobs all day long. So to me games like Wow, even though very well produced just gets boring too fast.. and would be much more interesting, addictive, and immersive if they allowed players the freedom to kill other players... even with stiff penalties for pk'ing without being provoked.
Everyone has their own opinions. I just can't understand how such a huge percentage of people choose Trammel in UO over Felucia. This really blows my mind. No wonder none of the big game makers are making PvP games when so many of you hate PvP so damn much. It boggles my mind how I'm such a rare breed in the mmo community with my prefrences for hardcore PvP gaming. It seems to me that at some point, some of your PvE lovers would get tired of camping mobs all day or questing all day and you'd want the challenge that only comes from a real PvP mmo.
- Zaxx
zaxtor99 wrote:
My way of looking at it is like this... It's worth it to let them gank me in all PvP worlds. I WANT to have the freedom as well to outsmart them and get revenge. And when I do, I don't want it to be "consensual fighting", lol. I wanna kick these punks asses for whatever kinda punk crap they are pulling...
This is a maturity issue. At some point we all have to realize that nothing we say or do will stop some people from being assholes. If someone yells profanities at me in public, kicking that person's ass doesn't change the fact that they are a dickhead. The only time I bother in RL is when someone threatens the well being of my family or myself. Otherwise I let it be. In an MMO, we can just open "hardcore" FFA servers for these people to occupy their time in. It's when you start telling people that ALL servers should be FFA and permadeath that you get all this backlash. Most people are willing to make room for you but you seem unwilling to make room for others in return. And of course, blaming the sad quality of MMO's on people that don't share your views doesn't help either. I don't think any of the current MMOs out there would have any problem with setting up a FFA perma death server for their customers. But that's not enough for you, is it? You want to force everyone to play your way. That's just not going to happen. Live with it.
No wonder none of the big game makers are making PvP games when so many of you hate PvP so damn much.
Actually Zax, they aren't making PvP MMORPGs because they aren't really sure how. In FPS and RTS games, there are usually a small, finite number of elements that can be analysed against one another fairly quickly to determine how well they stack up against one another. In an RPG, there can be literally thousands and thousands of different weapons, spells, and items. There is really no way to play test all the possiblities of a typical RPG in 2 to 5 years. This requires a new kind of game theory analysis that just hasn't been commercially developed yet. Another thing to consider is all the different ways players can compete in an RPG. They can race to finish a level up and finish a quest (Legend of The Red Dragon style), they can compete as merchants trying to get the greatest share of a given in-game market, players can even play politics within their guild or faction if the game allows it. PvP is more than just combat and modern RPG developers just don't know how to cover it all. When they do, you'll see all kinds of really great MMO PvP games.