Personally, i have stopped playing MMOs for a while because I am a solo player but most are dedicated to group activities, leaving solo players as victims.
Currently I am eargerly awaiting Trials of Ascension. It promises to be one of the most immersive games with pvp and full loot drop that I have ever seen, and I have played quite a few. This is their current Dev journal they have just recently started posting, to give you an idea of where they are trying to take the game....
Tried to link but I guess it wont work, at least not for me. The website is- http://www.shadowpool.com - look in "Forums" then the "Announcments" and in there is a subforum called "dev journals". The dev journal on 'Flora' is the one that will give you the most insight into what they are trying to create.
Great stuff but it will be a while before release. But until a game comes out with these kinda features... I will probably just troll and wait rather then settle for something I will play for 3-4 months then grow bored with (EveOnline, Shadowbane, Hz, SWG, EQ).
Originally posted by EbonDrake Personally, i have stopped playing MMOs for a while because I am a solo player but most are dedicated to group activities, leaving solo players as victims.Currently I am eargerly awaiting Trials of Ascension. It promises to be one of the most immersive games with pvp and full loot drop that I have ever seen, and I have played quite a few. This is their current Dev journal they have just recently started posting, to give you an idea of where they are trying to take the game...."Hello ToA fans. For this particular dev journal, I was asked to talk about my experience of building the rhyme and reason behind the flora of ToA. Follow me into the underbrush as I try my best to describe the dynamics and extreme level of interaction that you the player will experience with the plant life of TerVarus.First, I want to talk about my own personal journey in creating the properties of all the common, diverse, and exotic flora that will be in ToA. It has been an interesting one to be sure. Long days and nights working on the plants until I would get to the point where all I wanted to do is dig my teeth into a big juicy steak and didnt want to see anything green ever again! From coming up with version after version until we finally nailed down the initial plants that will be in the game to doing the same with the properties of the plants themselves, and all the research I did that went into creating the living documents, it was and will continue to be quite the journey. Thank goodness for team communication. This is so vital in the construction of any project, and its nice to know others have my back if I need to ask an urgent question to get an answer that will allow me to finish and meet my deadlines. Yes, even we owners have deadlines. spshocked.gifOne of the more obvious things about the plant life in ToA is its resources. Ill hit on that in a minute but first imagine not only being able to use plants and their components as viable resources, but as cover. With no names or other identifiers floating above your heads like in other games, youll be able to truly hide behind a bush or large plant, and your foe or prey will never be the wiser! Player tactics via camouflage and ambushing will be elevated to a new level in ToA.Resources are a given when it comes to ToAs flora. For example this is the Ultoss tree. The Ultoss is most common in the Tallacore Wood and the central eastern lands.Attached ImageThe Ultoss, like all the plant life in ToA is not just for looks. It will yield, as follows: (subject to change of course!)Leaves: 200 Bark: 100 Roots: 5 Seeds: 24 Sap: 75 Pods: 8 Logs: 100Some plants in TOA, like the Ultoss, will give multiple resources while others will give only one, the plant body itself. An example would be the Pandel mushroom shown here:Attached ImageAny ideas what this mushroom will do for you? Will it kill you? Heal you? Fill your stomach satisfyingly? Take a bite and let's find out! sprockon.gifYour characters skill will directly dictate what you can successfully harvest, its condition when you harvest it, and how many resources you can harvest from each plant. All harvestable resources will have a rate of replenishment value, which will over time, slowly replenish each resource back to its maximum amount, barring player interaction with the plant. This rate of replenishment will vary based on a whole list of situations such as plant health and the current season.A very intuitive user interface will enable you to extract resources from the plant in a fun way. Some resources will require the player to be creative and think about possibilities in order to know the plant is even capable of yielding such a resource. For example, certain resources might only be accessible in one location on the plant or require a very specific tool to extract the resource with. If a trees pods dangle high up in its canopy (such as with the Ultoss above), how would you go about gathering them? Fly? What if you cannot fly? Climb perhaps? Do you have the climbing skills to hang on while trying to extract the pods? What if you need a special tool to harvest a resource from a plant? Do you have one? Do you even know that you have to have one? Where do you get one made? Who makes them? How much do they cost here? There are a myriad of questions that might be required to ask yourself simply to try and get an idea whether or not a plant might yield something more then you first thought.Certain resources will also require the plant to be slain in order to yield specific resources such as logs. This doesnt necessarily mean youll have to fight a tree in order to gain access to its logs, but it might mean you better bring a sharp axe or three.The design team, of which I am part of, demanded a much more interactive system for the resources a player would be able to gather from an asset. I was given the task of defining the weights and volumes of trees and plants in ToA, which was not an easy task. As odd as that sounds, the flora in ToA will need these variables in other systems of the game in order to keep everything in the game on the same level, and itll also allow us to adjust and set properties of plants in ToA more accurately in the future.One of my favorite aspects of ToA is the idea of player-driven plant propagation. It was imperative that the design allowed you the player to propagate a plant if you so wanted to try. By including seeds as a harvestable resource, you have an opportunity to directly dictate your characters health through the planting of your own crops, and as hunger and thirst will play such a huge role in the lives of characters, crops will be very important to the survival of many species. Seeds will have many properties tied to them, from germination rates to longevity values, to keep players guessing and experimenting with the system.As already shown, edible flora and plants, and the seeds they yield, will play a direct role in influencing player character survivability. But, resources will also have the potential for baneful effects depending on how you manipulate the resource and any basic properties it may inherently possess. Certain baneful resources, when combined with certain skills, might be the cure you need. Conversely, certain beneficial resources might be toxic or dangerous to others. Its always wise to consult your local herbalist before handling or using TerVaran flora resources. spwink.gifAnother dynamic and interactive aspect of ToAs plant life is how it impacts crafting. Each plant and resource in the game will have certain properties that will directly dictate whether or not it is a viable crafting resource for whatever it is youre attempting to make. Just as in our world, certain trees will be superior woods to use to craft ships or houses from, while others would be a poor choice for those crafted items. Yet, just because it isnt suitable for what youre crafting doesnt mean you cant use it anyway or it wouldnt be superior in the crafting of something else.The innovation system is the one part about doing this task that has me the most excited. The raw potential it gives us as developers to give you new and exciting challenges is almost limitless, and plants in ToA will be no exception. Just when you think youve figured out most of our plants and what theyre capable of, you find something new and fresh that throws you a curve or gives you hope for something you thought would never be implemented. For example, your local herbalist innovates a way to decrease the germination time of the main crop that your village relies on to survive by half! The potential is enormous and very exciting from where Im sitting!One of my jobs in being the Campaign Coordinator as well as a designer (which is a fancy word for being in charge of the campaign managers post release) is to give you a game where you can truly enjoy the materialistic aspect of the game, and to make sure there are systems in place that allow you have the most possible fun you can in the crafting and environmental aspects of the game. Some argue that crafting is boring, snoring, repetition in other games, and that its unlikely that it will ever be anything more then that, well, part of my job is to make sure the crafting, environmental, and collecting systems in TOA will be as fun as we can possibly make it and Id like to think that Im on target! Now, youll have to excuse me. Im off to find that elusive Moss Dangler. I hear it occasionally has Chanterelles growing near the base of it, so perhaps Ill get a snack while Im out searching "Great stuff but it will be a while before release. But until a game comes out with these kinda features... I will probably just troll and wait rather then settle for something I will play for 3-4 months then grow bored with (EveOnline, Shadowbane, Hz, SWG, EQ).
Dude, next time just post the link otherwise it looks like you're just farming for stars. Thank you.
Lineage 2 sure I hate the crafting system but the castle fights are great between 2 and 8 last for two hours on a saturday or sunday I remember when the whole server was fed up with reborns Taxes and took all 3 of there castles one after another in 15 min each the drama is so big in l2 ....if I had a list of when what player joined what clan when,at what lvl they were at etc etc In korea there is a radio station that has 10 to 1hour reviews of each seige that took place (you gotta set your castle too be ready to seige once every 15 days) so 40 servers X 5 castles = 200 /100 a week
once we get a game that holds 3 million U.S. players (1% of the country) on one massive server of any gane with a simmalar 2hr every other week seige time OMG we'll get our own show right after sports center
"heres our 9 hour review of every thing that happened at the West Coast VS East Coast fight at giran castle 1 million VS 1 million taken from in game blimp on Fraps" okay I went off topic but you get the point ...every time I go on a seige even if I die and get sent back to my flag 100 times it still feels like monday night football with 500 bucks on the raiders
I'd have to say There. The reason is in There I can become a part of the world and have an impact. My builds or products could change the cousrse of creativity in There and start something. A board game played with Avatars I can create might start something new.
You're actually someone and a part of the world in There instead of just another player. You can be unique and different, you can have your clothing style and building style. Thats the reason I choose There, I can become someone inside There instead of a player behind a computer.
I can't believe so many people are saying WoW... I mean, don't get me wrong, it's my main game right now. But immersive? Hardly... I like the game world, but I don't feel like I'm actually there. Invisible walls? Mountains you just can't climb up? The most jarring thing is when you go into a house or a dock and you look at the railing on the stairs or dock and see them overlap and go through eachother.... Not at all immersive.
I'd have to say FFXI. When I'm running around Western Raunfare, moving between the trees looking for orcs, hearing the wind blow through the leaves, I feel like I'm actually there. When I'm at the beach killing giant crabs, hearing the ocean breeze come over the wafting of the waves, hearing the sand shift under my feet, I can almost smell the ocean. When I go exploring a giant rocky field and see a tiny path that can barely fit a human and end up finding an entire cave, where I can only hear a distant hum of wind back toward the entrance, and I find a named monster (NOT camped, like in other MMORPGs), I am my character. I couldn't believe how immersive that was.
Granted, EQ1 would have to get the nod above FFXI for immersive geography, I couldn't believe the graphics, ambient noises, and just overall feel of immersion from FFXI.
_____________________________________ "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro; Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore." -Machiavelli
Originally posted by ViolentY I can't believe so many people are saying WoW... I mean, don't get me wrong, it's my main game right now. But immersive? Hardly... I like the game world, but I don't feel like I'm actually there. Invisible walls? Mountains you just can't climb up? The most jarring thing is when you go into a house or a dock and you look at the railing on the stairs or dock and see them overlap and go through eachother.... Not at all immersive. I'd have to say FFXI. When I'm running around Western Raunfare, moving between the trees looking for orcs, hearing the wind blow through the leaves, I feel like I'm actually there. When I'm at the beach killing giant crabs, hearing the ocean breeze come over the wafting of the waves, hearing the sand shift under my feet, I can almost smell the ocean. When I go exploring a giant rocky field and see a tiny path that can barely fit a human and end up finding an entire cave, where I can only hear a distant hum of wind back toward the entrance, and I find a named monster (NOT camped, like in other MMORPGs), I am my character. I couldn't believe how immersive that was.Granted, EQ1 would have to get the nod above FFXI for immersive geography, I couldn't believe the graphics, ambient noises, and just overall feel of immersion from FFXI.
I'm a bit surprised at the # of folks saying WoW myself. Immersive, from a more-than-just-visual perspective? Can you build structures in the gameworld? No. Player housing? No. Not even instanced (and please don't follow EQ2 and do idiotic instanced housing). Craft unique items or craft the same item the other 4 million people are doing? Yup, no "personalization", no chance to alter recipes or add to them. Just the same item everyone else can make given the same materials. Yawn. Do the world events actually result in changes to the gaming environment through player involvement -- towns burned down, towns being rebuilt, NPCs killed (not killed-revive-PvP junk, but killed a la "story" killed), new things discovered and unlocked through player action (say, dynamic nested questing that, through the efforts of players, eventually reveals a conclusion that opens a new area or unlocks something that brings something new to the world, thereby actually having an impact on the environment), etc? Nope. The environment is unchanging. The quests are unchanging, meaning that they're "static" (they may add new quests, but those quests have all been "static" as well), as in, having no impact on the story/gameworld that's visceral. Can players create malls and hospitals and work together in said ways, as they can in SWG? Nope. The game mechanics are rigid -- they offer the players no flexibility in terms of choosing for themselves how to impact the gameworld and make a difference, beyond the chat channels and guild structuring (which all games out there have in one form or another).
Don't take that as a bash on the game. It's a personal opinion, and it's telling why it's my opinion. Yours may and probably does differ. I admire Blizzard's putting together a formula that brought them the success they have. I just wish they'd actually innovate a little and create dynamic, flexible game mechanics that let the players actually participate in the environment instead of just occupying it. (no, participate doesn't mean join a guild or talk to pals, literally every game out there has those mechanics in place; participate, as in, have an impact, leave a mark, do something or build something that is actually distinct and lasting).
And I don't want this to turn into a bash-this or bash-that topic, either, please. If you feel something is or isn't immersive, explain why -- as I just did, or tried to do, with WoW. I could easily criticise EQ2 at launch for putting too many of its game mechanics "intruding" into the environment and therefore ruining immersion, aka artificial barriers that inhibit action that don't make sense within the context of the environment. (to be fair, they have been reducing the artificial intrusions into their environment recently)
-- Edit: yes, you can criticise a game, by way of defineable criteria, without bashing it. Remove all chips from shoulders before proceeding, please.
I find it interesting that some equate immersion with the ability to have an impact upon the game environment. Obviously, I understand that being able to do more than "occupy space" in the game world helps you to believe that you are "really" there. However, in a licensed game like SWG this can work against immersion. I played that game at launch and felt immediately drawn into the game environment - all the locations from the films were recreated very well and the game had that Star Wars feel. However, for me it all went tits-up when player cities began springing up all over the place. Before long you couldn't go anywhere without stumbling into a player town with inappropriate names (New Coventry, New Hamburg, Lothlorien etc) which - for me at least - destroyed the immersion in an instant. Games with rich, established lore can give you that instant immersion factor due to the player's existing familiarity with the game world, but it is more easily destroyed if player impacts on the world are not carefully controlled. I hope Turbine take better care of the Tolkien license than SoE did with the Lucas one.
For my money, the most immersive game was SoR - the change of the seasons, the way the animals behaved, the history, the unique and original setting and the mature community etc all made Ryzom feel more real than any other game environment I've experienced. And I'd defend those who have championed WoW: the game world is very well realised and the lore is first rate. While it is rather static, the scale and nature of the community weigh against allowing the players to have much (if any) permanent impact on the world. It would be like letting thousands of infants loose in the Louvre with crayons and paint. For those of us to whom authenticity and believability are intertwined, immersion is a delicate bubble that is too easily burst.
See my sig. Hands down no other game has made me feel like I'm actually THERE than EVE.
Now... as to the GAMEPLAY that can be debated. EVE is a bit slow paced, even for me, so it turns players off. But for Immersiveness and making you feel as if you really are out in the vast emptiness of space... EVE has it... in spades.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Mandolin I find it interesting that some equate immersion with the ability to have an impact upon the game environment. Obviously, I understand that being able to do more than "occupy space" in the game world helps you to believe that you are "really" there. However, in a licensed game like SWG this can work against immersion. I played that game at launch and felt immediately drawn into the game environment - all the locations from the films were recreated very well and the game had that Star Wars feel. However, for me it all went tits-up when player cities began springing up all over the place. Before long you couldn't go anywhere without stumbling into a player town with inappropriate names (New Coventry, New Hamburg, Lothlorien etc) which - for me at least - destroyed the immersion in an instant. Games with rich, established lore can give you that instant immersion factor due to the player's existing familiarity with the game world, but it is more easily destroyed if player impacts on the world are not carefully controlled. I hope Turbine take better care of the Tolkien license than SoE did with the Lucas one. For my money, the most immersive game was SoR - the change of the seasons, the way the animals behaved, the history, the unique and original setting and the mature community etc all made Ryzom feel more real than any other game environment I've experienced. And I'd defend those who have championed WoW: the game world is very well realised and the lore is first rate. While it is rather static, the scale and nature of the community weigh against allowing the players to have much (if any) permanent impact on the world. It would be like letting thousands of infants loose in the Louvre with crayons and paint. For those of us to whom authenticity and believability are intertwined, immersion is a delicate bubble that is too easily burst.
The only flaw is, in your last few sentences, you make what seems like a good point -- until you realise that you just rationalized why games should not attempt anything by way of innovation. If they do, they'll just have the "thousands of infants" causing the problems you indicate.
On that, I disagree. Take the simplest way to give a player a feeling they did something: crafting. All WoW has to do is add something akin to horizon's techniques, which are special formulas that can be applied during construction, that require special materials to use, and which produce any variety of bonuses or side-affects or coloration changes. The point is, the players mix and match the techniques used at their decision, and the end-results cannot be called "clones" of everyone else's recipes. That's not "letting loose the infants", it's providing the player's the flexibility to actually make something that is in some part "actually theirs", something that isn't cookie-cutter cloning because the formula are the formula and the best you can do is layer an enchantment (assuming you're an enchanter or you pay one) onto the item you made.
Or specifically add content that involves nested, dynamic storylines that trigger things that otherwise don't happen (and don't respawn or recur). Set the "investigative" side of the storyline so that it is actually tricky and takes thought to figure out (make it worth figuring out, in other words), instead of just "go there, do this, come back to me; here's the next clue, which is to go THERE and do THAT and come back to me". I fall back again on Horizons. Building the bridge to open a new area wasn't a given, nor was it plopped in by the devs; they set up the storyline so the players could figure out the need for themselves and then had the mechanisms in place to let the players do that thing for themselves.
Weave something like that, where the story leads to the "need" to do something, and leave it to the players to put together enough other folks to defend them while they're "doing" the thing the thing that needs to be done and give the players, not the hand-out solution, but the flexibility to create the solution by using the game mechanics provided. In this case, WoW could put a new NPC into an existing place, say a Bard; and have the Bard tell stories -- not give quests, or tell you specifically what to do, just give information. Let the players actually think for themselves this time. Those who do read and think will have a clue inside the information given where they need to go to investigate this "story" of this fabled island or lost pyramid or whatever. Perhaps the story is about a visit to the pyramid by a sailor, who was the only survivor of a shipwreck... and the story describes the shipwreck in terms of the environment where it happened. Let the players have to figure out where that is, instead of telling them (that would be dynamic rather than static content, to my definitions). Once they track down the location, perhaps the shipwreck then triggers the actual "quest" to find the pyramid, though it provides in the quest logbook NO INFORMATION about where it is. The information is in what the shipwreck reveals to you -- perhaps through the "trigger", in this case, say, a logbook. It talks about a pyramid that no one's visited before. This then can lead to a series of investigations, each building toward the reveal -- unlocking an island, let's say, that would be new and NOT on anyone's maps until it's unlocked. Doesn't have to be a huge place, but this schema for things has several benefits: it involves the players instead of just hand-holding them along, makes them think out the connections in the story instead of just telling them how to make the connections, it adds content that is player-driven instead of just handed out. And, once the island is found, it's up to the players who found it to go back to an NPC in each city (call it the Librarian or whatever) and reveal the location to the librarion, which would then reveal (add to a player's map) the island's existence when they talk to the librarian. You can put static quests that respawn on the island itself, to keep the content "fresh" for each and every person who comes through.
I guess my key for immersion is actually thinking for myself and figuring out the storylines without having the steps spoon-fed to me (go here; talk to Fred, who might know something, and you'll find Fred in the library in Stormhold; Fred sends you to Mary, and tells you where to find her; who sends you to Selene, who has you kill things before she'll reveal the next step... yawn, sorry, fell asleep during that.). Involving the players in how the quests unfold and making them think about the steps instead of just giving the steps out would be a big start. Providing game mechanics that are flexible, that give the infants their controls and their level of involvement but that let those who actually realise the further potential of the system do the more dynamic things needed to flesh out a truly dynamic environment. And no, it wouldn't set loose the infants you describe -- the infants of that description wouldn't figure out how to proceed, since it wasn't being handed to them and it involved more than just clicking here, get quest, go there, kill x, click on x item, come back.
Everquest II is the mosst immersive to me. Not only are the graphics and sound top notch, but the lore, consistancy, and community are really what make this game so immersive. The only thing I would change if I could would be to make it open PvP.
I am not really a big PvP type of player, but I like conflict between races/factions and I think it is less immersive when Elvs and Trolls are near eachother and can't attack. Many players in EQ2 roleplay in various ways to explain why there are no open hostilities between Freeport and Qeynos based characters, but I would prefer if there could just be a server where there was open PvP, but where roleplayers could also gather. World of Warcraft will attempt this soon with a new PvPRP server, and I think this can really be a very immersive setting. As it is now, on a PvP server, you wont find many roleplayers, just folks who will gank you just because they can. I am expecting that on the PvPRP server, there will be roleplayed battles set up between Alliance and Horde, and it will be great. I remember something like this was done in Dark Age of Camelot, which was also a very immersive mmorpg.
Originally posted by ViolentY I can't believe so many people are saying WoW... I mean, don't get me wrong, it's my main game right now. But immersive? Hardly... I like the game world, but I don't feel like I'm actually there. Invisible walls? Mountains you just can't climb up? The most jarring thing is when you go into a house or a dock and you look at the railing on the stairs or dock and see them overlap and go through eachother.... Not at all immersive. I'd have to say FFXI. When I'm running around Western Raunfare, moving between the trees looking for orcs, hearing the wind blow through the leaves, I feel like I'm actually there. When I'm at the beach killing giant crabs, hearing the ocean breeze come over the wafting of the waves, hearing the sand shift under my feet, I can almost smell the ocean. When I go exploring a giant rocky field and see a tiny path that can barely fit a human and end up finding an entire cave, where I can only hear a distant hum of wind back toward the entrance, and I find a named monster (NOT camped, like in other MMORPGs), I am my character. I couldn't believe how immersive that was. Granted, EQ1 would have to get the nod above FFXI for immersive geography, I couldn't believe the graphics, ambient noises, and just overall feel of immersion from FFXI.
Obviously, opinions are unique here but I'm curious about something. You said WoW lacked immersion to you because of railing textures or things you saw in a house, but then you later gave EQ1 a nod for immersive geography. Let's think about EQ1 here for a second: - EQ1 did not handle extremes of geography in any meaningful way. You basically didn't have anything even closely resembling soaring mountains or deep valleys. Take Rathe Mountains for example. The "mountains" in the zone were either the zone walls themselves or tiny hills. Even in Velious the tallest mountains don't even come close to what you see in WoW. - Having "zones" in a game tends to take a bite out of immersion as it is, but did anyone find the square shaped zones of EQ that immersive? In some cases you would literally run into an invisible wall. - You can't really fault things like square shaped trees when you take into account the timeperiod EQ was developed in, but I recall a lot of 'bugs' in the landscape such as trees that weren't 'planted' in the landscape properly, and many of those glitches were never fixed possibly due to how the client and server interacted.
Anyhow, feel free to chime in. I know for many people EQ was either the 1st MMORPG they played or maybe the first they sunk a lot of time into and we always like to look back through rose-colored glasses.
I must say World of Warcraft. (Not being a fan boy) I have certain things that need to be fullfilled to get me immersed. First I need response to my actions on the keyboard in the character. If I just tap the key very fast I need to see the character make a little twich. The mouse has the react on even the smallest movement I make. And I must have jumping I get a heartattack if a game doesn't have jumping. For me the spacebar is there only for 1 thing, jumping. Way to few mmo's do this. Wow is one of the few that does. Guild Wars, SWG and most older mmo's don't feel very responsive.
Second I need a hand made gameworld. There is nothing worse than looking at a plane with trees generated upon. With generated world you get a bigger world, yes but it will be ugly. World of Warcraft offers a 100% handmade world. The trees are placed in a realistical way. They grow on places where real trees would grow. The attention to detail is awesome. Even in totally weird places you can find small signs of that the developer actually has looked at this place. There are tons of easter eggs spread across the world. It's one of the mmo's with really high mountains and cliffs. You can climb them and jump down. Nothing is like jumping from IF or of the big dam in Loch Modan. No other mmo has ever given me that option. I have yet to find any "bugs" in the terrain. No trees are floating in the air. If there have been any they have been fixed pretty fast in one of the patches.
The world also has to look cool. It's not fun to walk around in a world where it's the same colors everywhere. This is where Wow does great. The trees look sweet and some of the ares have some mindblowing color combinations. My favourites are Azshara, Darkshore, Desolace and the Maraudon dungeon.
A UI that blends in with the game world is a must. A fantasy game needs a fantasy interface, while a scifi game needs a scifi interface. It shouldn't be to big either. As small as possible. World of Warcraft fullfills this great and Eve-online isn't to bad there either.
But most important is the seamless terrain nothing detroys the immersion more than a loading screen. Seamless terrain is a must. World of warcraft and L2 are the only ones offering this feature right now (as far as I know). If a developer can't offer me that, then atleast don't write "loading entities" on your loading screen!
One thing the world of Wow is lacking. Weather effects. The game that has the best weather effects is Saga of Ryzom. Seing a storm there is lovely. What I don't understand that no mmo has offered rain on water effects like in Morrowind. Was dissapointed when I saw that EQ2 didn't have that.
Edit:
Reading abit more of the other posts I noticed many are writing about the most immersive game mechanics. Not the most immersive gameworld.
My definition of immersive directly correlates with two factors: the first and most important being the ability for individual player(s) to change the world, and the second are world events that change from time to time. For that reason, I consider WoW to be one of the least immersive games on the market. Darkmoon Faire and a few smaller events have made some small improvements on the immersion factor but the fact is - no player or guild can change any part of the world. In fact, other than the BG zone entrance additions the every server is still the same world it was when the game released. I don't see how people can feel immersed in such a static world.
My nod for most immersive would have to go to Eve Online. Wars are constantly raging and regional territories switching sides. New events that are often relevant to the player base are constantly arising - changing the scape of the galaxy. The market prices actually change based on actual supply and demand. Even your faction standings with NPCs mean something more than a 10% discount off of goods. The breadth of options a player has is astounding. For these reasons, I consider Eve to be the most immersive MMORPG on the market.
Originally posted by ViolentY I can't believe so many people are saying WoW... I mean, don't get me wrong, it's my main game right now. But immersive? Hardly... I like the game world, but I don't feel like I'm actually there. Invisible walls? Mountains you just can't climb up? The most jarring thing is when you go into a house or a dock and you look at the railing on the stairs or dock and see them overlap and go through eachother.... Not at all immersive. I'd have to say FFXI. When I'm running around Western Raunfare, moving between the trees looking for orcs, hearing the wind blow through the leaves, I feel like I'm actually there. When I'm at the beach killing giant crabs, hearing the ocean breeze come over the wafting of the waves, hearing the sand shift under my feet, I can almost smell the ocean. When I go exploring a giant rocky field and see a tiny path that can barely fit a human and end up finding an entire cave, where I can only hear a distant hum of wind back toward the entrance, and I find a named monster (NOT camped, like in other MMORPGs), I am my character. I couldn't believe how immersive that was. Granted, EQ1 would have to get the nod above FFXI for immersive geography, I couldn't believe the graphics, ambient noises, and just overall feel of immersion from FFXI.
hmm do you understand what emmersive is?
World of warcraft is one of few who realy is open exploring world with wonderfull cenery and differnet looking landscapes.
What FFXI is none of that its boring looking and its make of different servers every differnt landsacpe is n a new server you have to load in its not alive at all:P
WoW is one off best but only thing i miss is weather and trees blow in wind or grass only in oasis they move(barrens).
But music makes up for that every eco system in wow have different sound with animals and birds and insects.
L2 yes is also total open enviroment but its boring and sound is very plain and simple.
WoW for me hands down and ive played most mentiond above.
If weather system in wow then it would be best ever.
ryzom ive only played beta and thought it was crap, but maybe they chance alot after beta ryzom?
my two euro cents
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Would be a tossup between Eve and UO for me, Although I do have to give a nod to FFXI as well simply because the things they do with Events, music, sounds and such are incredible.
Uo, it was the player run cities that players could layout however they saw fit, the crafting system that made logical sense, the harvesting system that made logical sense, Role playing guilds like the Orc Clan, and of course Clothes and the simple ability to customize your character just about any way you saw fit. I still to this day Find myself annoyed at some of the little things that were in UO that no modern MMO bothers to put in.
Eve has a very realistic feel to it from an immersion standpoint, while the game was not for me it is well done. Although it would have been nice to be able to potentially explore planets and such, instead of being cooped up permanently in the spacecraft.
The only flaw is, in your last few sentences, you make what seems like a good point .....
I cannot argue with the examples you give to support your position. Individually crafted items (and indeed any way to make your character unique within the confines of the game milieu) are a good way to allow players some degree of creative expression without vandalizing the game world. Similarly, the bridge building event in Horizons was well implemented as it enabled characters of all levels to be part of the process even if it was just carrying lumber. This was better done than say the plague or frogloks in EQ2 which seemed to designed just to give the higher levels something to do. If world-changing events can involve the whole player base, rather than just the end-game rushers looking to stamp their authority, then they can add enormously to the immersion for all. I particularly like your investigative idea and the notion of rewarding the clever rather than just the time-rich.
My point was simply that in the context of a licensed game, major player-added content (cities etc) needs to be quality-controlled to ensure that it fits within the existing game lore. The Horizons event worked well because it fit within (and advanced) what was known of the game history and unfolding story (I think, it has been a long while). Nobody went into that game with fixed preconceptions about the game world, but a licensed game like LoTROL or SWG is a different kettle of ewoks. Developers know that a good license can draw huge numbers of players who love the source material that the game is based on, but they also need to appreciate that they cannot be as cavalier with that material as they can with the worlds they create themselves. In these games, the key to immersion for many is in how convincingly the game reproduces what is already known and that can be difficult to reconcile with the wishes of those for whom immersion is proportionate to the degree of control over the environment. These aren't necessarily antagonistic viewpoints, it just requires the developers to be more judicious.
I have only played 2 mmorpgs, SWG and WOW. I like the artwork in WOW, but for me SWG was amazing in terms of immersion.
The planet Tatooine really was amazing, and I really got that "high technology yet backworld dump, abandoned by civilisation" kinda feel from it, kind of lonely and seedy yet beautiful.
For me immersion will trigger these feelings in you, whether good or bad.
Maybe because of the films my subconcious had more to work with, but the deserts of Tatooine made me feel.. wierd, its hard to explain, kind of depressed but in a aesthetically pleasing way lol
Originally posted by Mandolin Originally posted by spydermr2 The only flaw is, in your last few sentences, you make what seems like a good point ..... I cannot argue with the examples you give to support your position. Individually crafted items (and indeed any way to make your character unique within the confines of the game milieu) are a good way to allow players some degree of creative expression without vandalizing the game world. Similarly, the bridge building event in Horizons was well implemented as it enabled characters of all levels to be part of the process even if it was just carrying lumber. This was better done than say the plague or frogloks in EQ2 which seemed to designed just to give the higher levels something to do. If world-changing events can involve the whole player base, rather than just the end-game rushers looking to stamp their authority, then they can add enormously to the immersion for all. I particularly like your investigative idea and the notion of rewarding the clever rather than just the time-rich. My point was simply that in the context of a licensed game, major player-added content (cities etc) needs to be quality-controlled to ensure that it fits within the existing game lore. The Horizons event worked well because it fit within (and advanced) what was known of the game history and unfolding story (I think, it has been a long while). Nobody went into that game with fixed preconceptions about the game world, but a licensed game like LoTROL or SWG is a different kettle of ewoks. Developers know that a good license can draw huge numbers of players who love the source material that the game is based on, but they also need to appreciate that they cannot be as cavalier with that material as they can with the worlds they create themselves. In these games, the key to immersion for many is in how convincingly the game reproduces what is already known and that can be difficult to reconcile with the wishes of those for whom immersion is proportionate to the degree of control over the environment. These aren't necessarily antagonistic viewpoints, it just requires the developers to be more judicious.
Tried to write a reply a bit back, but an area-wide DSL disconnect brought grief to my online-life. (Scowl)
Totally agree with what you've said here, particularly on the point of an existing license and the expectations of "seeing the familiar", so to speak.
I look back at the introduction of UO, AC1, and EQ1, and I see three games that took radically different approaches to their game mechanics and their attitudes to what constituted their "MMORPG" concept. Not just perspective (UO being 3/4 angle down, the other two being 1st/3rd perspective), but the actual game mechanics involved. There were actual innnovation being tried, ideas to involve the player in the world attempted. Look at things like DAoC, which brought in well-executed realm-vs-realm mass combat; Shadowbane, with full PvP with consequences; etc. I've already made the distinctions about Horizons clear. Attempts to involve players in the mechanics and to use the mechanics to let the players play flexibly.
It's like the efforts suddenly dried up. WoW brought nothing new to the table, just a polished presentation of their static sandbox. EQ2 introduced at launch so many ingame artificial barriers to immersive gameplay that it was staggering to think of it coming from the folks who made EQ1. I look at the games coming and there is hope among them of some actual player-involving mechanics within the context of the environment.
I think there's a particular reticence on the part of devs working with established licenses (since the early days, 'cause UO certainly worked with an established license and brought in tons of player-involving mechanics) to try anything more than just creating their sandbox and putting players in it. Part of it may be fear of "spoiling" the environment from that license -- oops, they mis-did Tattoine, that'll piss off people and ruin expectations. Ditto to giving players mechanics that can change Tattoine much -- but that in and of itself is a static approach, based on the thinking that players want to "go places they're heard of and seen" and not that, in the long run, the players want to be able to "live" in that same place and feel like they're actually doing things that constitute "living" within an online environment. I don't want to visit a static tavern on Tattoine; i want the capacity to set up my own. I want to feel like I'm actually roleplaying within the environment of the Star Wars galaxies instead of just walking "inside the painting".
I think the failing in terms of player-centric immersive gameplay comes from that "caution". And it's a profound pity.
It's like the efforts suddenly dried up. WoW brought nothing new to the table, just a polished presentation of their static sandbox. EQ2 introduced at launch so many ingame artificial barriers to immersive gameplay that it was staggering to think of it coming from the folks who made EQ1. I think there's a particular reticence on the part of devs working with established licenses (since the early days, 'cause UO certainly worked with an established license and brought in tons of player-involving mechanics) to try anything more than just creating their sandbox and putting players in it. Part of it may be fear of "spoiling" the environment from that license -- oops, they mis-did Tattoine, that'll piss off people and ruin expectations. Ditto to giving players mechanics that can change Tattoine much -- but that in and of itself is a static approach, based on the thinking that players want to "go places they're heard of and seen" and not that, in the long run, the players want to be able to "live" in that same place and feel like they're actually doing things that constitute "living" within an online environment. I don't want to visit a static tavern on Tattoine; i want the capacity to set up my own. I want to feel like I'm actually roleplaying within the environment of the Star Wars galaxies instead of just walking "inside the painting". I think the failing in terms of player-centric immersive gameplay comes from that "caution". And it's a profound pity.
I agree with you re. EQ2. It's like some heroin-chic model, pretty on the surface but the bones are disturbingly evident.
To go back to the subject of licenses, SWG did Tatooine (etc) perfectly. However, what SoE should have done IMO was to let players become involved in the development of the existing cities, expanding them, developing them and vying for influence. When I left the game, Mos Eisley was a ghost town rather than a "wretched hive of scum and villainy". Players could have breathed life into those places, instead of sucking it out of them by moving the focus to Mos Vegas or wherever.
I think that developers tend to restrict themselves by setting licensed games within inflexible event/time frames. Had SWG been set outside of the times covered by the films they might have been better able to incorporate change without offending the Star Wars purists. Turbine seem to be following a similar theme with LoTR. Last time I looked (and it was months ago), the game was going to take place within a very limited space of time just after the Fellowship leave Moria. They obviously want to appeal to fans of the films rather than just hardcore Middle Earth junkies in order to capture a wider audience, but it's such a narrow slice of Middle Earth history that I think they're going to have difficulty creating anything other than a very static environment. No matter how long you play the game, the events of the story will progress at a completely different pace. Setting the game in a less familiar and well-documented period of history (e.g. TA 1649, the standard time setting of ICE's superb MERP p&p rpg) would have given much more scope more developer and player creativity.
Wasn't actually criticising the implementation of Tattoine, just using it as an example of how they were thinking before they released the game, while they were designing it. I'd agree that it was implemented well, within terms of their game mechanics.
Wow (not the game). I'm actually enjoying a conversation on an online forum, and it hasn't degenerated into the idiocy that usually happens. No postings from the "I hate company -x- and therefore I'm right when I say really transparently-stupid things" or its ilk. Color me impressed.
Comments
Personally, i have stopped playing MMOs for a while because I am a solo player but most are dedicated to group activities, leaving solo players as victims.
Currently I am eargerly awaiting Trials of Ascension. It promises to be one of the most immersive games with pvp and full loot drop that I have ever seen, and I have played quite a few.
This is their current Dev journal they have just recently started posting, to give you an idea of where they are trying to take the game....
Tried to link but I guess it wont work, at least not for me.
The website is- http://www.shadowpool.com - look in "Forums" then the "Announcments" and in there is a subforum called "dev journals". The dev journal on 'Flora' is the one that will give you the most insight into what they are trying to create.
Great stuff but it will be a while before release.
But until a game comes out with these kinda features... I will probably just troll and wait rather then settle for something I will play for 3-4 months then grow bored with (EveOnline, Shadowbane, Hz, SWG, EQ).
Edit - Sorry, correction made.
Dude, next time just post the link otherwise it looks like you're just farming for stars. Thank you.
Lineage 2
sure I hate the crafting system
but the castle fights are great
between 2 and 8 last for two hours
on a saturday or sunday
I remember when the whole server was fed up with reborns Taxes and took all 3 of there castles
one after another in 15 min each
the drama is so big in l2 ....if I had a list of when what player joined what clan when,at what lvl they were at
etc etc
In korea there is a radio station that has 10 to 1hour reviews of each seige that took place (you gotta set your castle too be ready to seige once every 15 days)
so 40 servers X 5 castles = 200 /100 a week
once we get a game that holds 3 million U.S. players (1% of the country)
on one massive server of any gane with a simmalar 2hr every other week seige time
OMG we'll get our own show right after sports center
"heres our 9 hour review of every thing that happened at the West Coast VS East Coast fight at giran castle
1 million VS 1 million taken from in game blimp on Fraps"
okay I went off topic but you get the point ...every time I go on a seige even if I die and get sent back to my flag 100 times it still feels like monday night football with 500 bucks on the raiders
What is "farming for stars"?
I doubt there will be any movement in the world either (Birds etc.)
Anyways Ryzom has the most immersive gameworld and anyone who can give me some arguments why it's not is welcome!
scientology
Oh well.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I'd have to say There. The reason is in There I can become a part of the world and have an impact. My builds or products could change the cousrse of creativity in There and start something. A board game played with Avatars I can create might start something new.
You're actually someone and a part of the world in There instead of just another player. You can be unique and different, you can have your clothing style and building style. Thats the reason I choose There, I can become someone inside There instead of a player behind a computer.
There
The only limitation in There is your own imagination!
immersive from a RP point of view: UO.
for "realism" i'd say EVE
I can't believe so many people are saying WoW... I mean, don't get me wrong, it's my main game right now. But immersive? Hardly... I like the game world, but I don't feel like I'm actually there. Invisible walls? Mountains you just can't climb up? The most jarring thing is when you go into a house or a dock and you look at the railing on the stairs or dock and see them overlap and go through eachother.... Not at all immersive.
I'd have to say FFXI. When I'm running around Western Raunfare, moving between the trees looking for orcs, hearing the wind blow through the leaves, I feel like I'm actually there. When I'm at the beach killing giant crabs, hearing the ocean breeze come over the wafting of the waves, hearing the sand shift under my feet, I can almost smell the ocean. When I go exploring a giant rocky field and see a tiny path that can barely fit a human and end up finding an entire cave, where I can only hear a distant hum of wind back toward the entrance, and I find a named monster (NOT camped, like in other MMORPGs), I am my character. I couldn't believe how immersive that was.
Granted, EQ1 would have to get the nod above FFXI for immersive geography, I couldn't believe the graphics, ambient noises, and just overall feel of immersion from FFXI.
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
I'm a bit surprised at the # of folks saying WoW myself. Immersive, from a more-than-just-visual perspective? Can you build structures in the gameworld? No. Player housing? No. Not even instanced (and please don't follow EQ2 and do idiotic instanced housing). Craft unique items or craft the same item the other 4 million people are doing? Yup, no "personalization", no chance to alter recipes or add to them. Just the same item everyone else can make given the same materials. Yawn. Do the world events actually result in changes to the gaming environment through player involvement -- towns burned down, towns being rebuilt, NPCs killed (not killed-revive-PvP junk, but killed a la "story" killed), new things discovered and unlocked through player action (say, dynamic nested questing that, through the efforts of players, eventually reveals a conclusion that opens a new area or unlocks something that brings something new to the world, thereby actually having an impact on the environment), etc? Nope. The environment is unchanging. The quests are unchanging, meaning that they're "static" (they may add new quests, but those quests have all been "static" as well), as in, having no impact on the story/gameworld that's visceral. Can players create malls and hospitals and work together in said ways, as they can in SWG? Nope. The game mechanics are rigid -- they offer the players no flexibility in terms of choosing for themselves how to impact the gameworld and make a difference, beyond the chat channels and guild structuring (which all games out there have in one form or another).
Don't take that as a bash on the game. It's a personal opinion, and it's telling why it's my opinion. Yours may and probably does differ. I admire Blizzard's putting together a formula that brought them the success they have. I just wish they'd actually innovate a little and create dynamic, flexible game mechanics that let the players actually participate in the environment instead of just occupying it. (no, participate doesn't mean join a guild or talk to pals, literally every game out there has those mechanics in place; participate, as in, have an impact, leave a mark, do something or build something that is actually distinct and lasting).
And I don't want this to turn into a bash-this or bash-that topic, either, please. If you feel something is or isn't immersive, explain why -- as I just did, or tried to do, with WoW. I could easily criticise EQ2 at launch for putting too many of its game mechanics "intruding" into the environment and therefore ruining immersion, aka artificial barriers that inhibit action that don't make sense within the context of the environment. (to be fair, they have been reducing the artificial intrusions into their environment recently)
-- Edit: yes, you can criticise a game, by way of defineable criteria, without bashing it. Remove all chips from shoulders before proceeding, please.
I find it interesting that some equate immersion with the ability to have an impact upon the game environment. Obviously, I understand that being able to do more than "occupy space" in the game world helps you to believe that you are "really" there. However, in a licensed game like SWG this can work against immersion. I played that game at launch and felt immediately drawn into the game environment - all the locations from the films were recreated very well and the game had that Star Wars feel. However, for me it all went tits-up when player cities began springing up all over the place. Before long you couldn't go anywhere without stumbling into a player town with inappropriate names (New Coventry, New Hamburg, Lothlorien etc) which - for me at least - destroyed the immersion in an instant. Games with rich, established lore can give you that instant immersion factor due to the player's existing familiarity with the game world, but it is more easily destroyed if player impacts on the world are not carefully controlled. I hope Turbine take better care of the Tolkien license than SoE did with the Lucas one.
For my money, the most immersive game was SoR - the change of the seasons, the way the animals behaved, the history, the unique and original setting and the mature community etc all made Ryzom feel more real than any other game environment I've experienced. And I'd defend those who have championed WoW: the game world is very well realised and the lore is first rate. While it is rather static, the scale and nature of the community weigh against allowing the players to have much (if any) permanent impact on the world. It would be like letting thousands of infants loose in the Louvre with crayons and paint. For those of us to whom authenticity and believability are intertwined, immersion is a delicate bubble that is too easily burst.
Most immersive game?
See my sig. Hands down no other game has made me feel like I'm actually THERE than EVE.
Now... as to the GAMEPLAY that can be debated. EVE is a bit slow paced, even for me, so it turns players off. But for Immersiveness and making you feel as if you really are out in the vast emptiness of space... EVE has it... in spades.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
The only flaw is, in your last few sentences, you make what seems like a good point -- until you realise that you just rationalized why games should not attempt anything by way of innovation. If they do, they'll just have the "thousands of infants" causing the problems you indicate.
On that, I disagree. Take the simplest way to give a player a feeling they did something: crafting. All WoW has to do is add something akin to horizon's techniques, which are special formulas that can be applied during construction, that require special materials to use, and which produce any variety of bonuses or side-affects or coloration changes. The point is, the players mix and match the techniques used at their decision, and the end-results cannot be called "clones" of everyone else's recipes. That's not "letting loose the infants", it's providing the player's the flexibility to actually make something that is in some part "actually theirs", something that isn't cookie-cutter cloning because the formula are the formula and the best you can do is layer an enchantment (assuming you're an enchanter or you pay one) onto the item you made.
Or specifically add content that involves nested, dynamic storylines that trigger things that otherwise don't happen (and don't respawn or recur). Set the "investigative" side of the storyline so that it is actually tricky and takes thought to figure out (make it worth figuring out, in other words), instead of just "go there, do this, come back to me; here's the next clue, which is to go THERE and do THAT and come back to me". I fall back again on Horizons. Building the bridge to open a new area wasn't a given, nor was it plopped in by the devs; they set up the storyline so the players could figure out the need for themselves and then had the mechanisms in place to let the players do that thing for themselves.
Weave something like that, where the story leads to the "need" to do something, and leave it to the players to put together enough other folks to defend them while they're "doing" the thing the thing that needs to be done and give the players, not the hand-out solution, but the flexibility to create the solution by using the game mechanics provided. In this case, WoW could put a new NPC into an existing place, say a Bard; and have the Bard tell stories -- not give quests, or tell you specifically what to do, just give information. Let the players actually think for themselves this time. Those who do read and think will have a clue inside the information given where they need to go to investigate this "story" of this fabled island or lost pyramid or whatever. Perhaps the story is about a visit to the pyramid by a sailor, who was the only survivor of a shipwreck... and the story describes the shipwreck in terms of the environment where it happened. Let the players have to figure out where that is, instead of telling them (that would be dynamic rather than static content, to my definitions). Once they track down the location, perhaps the shipwreck then triggers the actual "quest" to find the pyramid, though it provides in the quest logbook NO INFORMATION about where it is. The information is in what the shipwreck reveals to you -- perhaps through the "trigger", in this case, say, a logbook. It talks about a pyramid that no one's visited before. This then can lead to a series of investigations, each building toward the reveal -- unlocking an island, let's say, that would be new and NOT on anyone's maps until it's unlocked. Doesn't have to be a huge place, but this schema for things has several benefits: it involves the players instead of just hand-holding them along, makes them think out the connections in the story instead of just telling them how to make the connections, it adds content that is player-driven instead of just handed out. And, once the island is found, it's up to the players who found it to go back to an NPC in each city (call it the Librarian or whatever) and reveal the location to the librarion, which would then reveal (add to a player's map) the island's existence when they talk to the librarian. You can put static quests that respawn on the island itself, to keep the content "fresh" for each and every person who comes through.
I guess my key for immersion is actually thinking for myself and figuring out the storylines without having the steps spoon-fed to me (go here; talk to Fred, who might know something, and you'll find Fred in the library in Stormhold; Fred sends you to Mary, and tells you where to find her; who sends you to Selene, who has you kill things before she'll reveal the next step... yawn, sorry, fell asleep during that.). Involving the players in how the quests unfold and making them think about the steps instead of just giving the steps out would be a big start. Providing game mechanics that are flexible, that give the infants their controls and their level of involvement but that let those who actually realise the further potential of the system do the more dynamic things needed to flesh out a truly dynamic environment. And no, it wouldn't set loose the infants you describe -- the infants of that description wouldn't figure out how to proceed, since it wasn't being handed to them and it involved more than just clicking here, get quest, go there, kill x, click on x item, come back.
Everquest II is the mosst immersive to me. Not only are the graphics and sound top notch, but the lore, consistancy, and community are really what make this game so immersive. The only thing I would change if I could would be to make it open PvP.
I am not really a big PvP type of player, but I like conflict between races/factions and I think it is less immersive when Elvs and Trolls are near eachother and can't attack. Many players in EQ2 roleplay in various ways to explain why there are no open hostilities between Freeport and Qeynos based characters, but I would prefer if there could just be a server where there was open PvP, but where roleplayers could also gather. World of Warcraft will attempt this soon with a new PvPRP server, and I think this can really be a very immersive setting. As it is now, on a PvP server, you wont find many roleplayers, just folks who will gank you just because they can. I am expecting that on the PvPRP server, there will be roleplayed battles set up between Alliance and Horde, and it will be great. I remember something like this was done in Dark Age of Camelot, which was also a very immersive mmorpg.
Obviously, opinions are unique here but I'm curious about something. You said WoW lacked immersion to you because of railing textures or things you saw in a house, but then you later gave EQ1 a nod for immersive geography. Let's think about EQ1 here for a second:
- EQ1 did not handle extremes of geography in any meaningful way. You basically didn't have anything even closely resembling soaring mountains or deep valleys. Take Rathe Mountains for example. The "mountains" in the zone were either the zone walls themselves or tiny hills. Even in Velious the tallest mountains don't even come close to what you see in WoW.
- Having "zones" in a game tends to take a bite out of immersion as it is, but did anyone find the square shaped zones of EQ that immersive? In some cases you would literally run into an invisible wall.
- You can't really fault things like square shaped trees when you take into account the timeperiod EQ was developed in, but I recall a lot of 'bugs' in the landscape such as trees that weren't 'planted' in the landscape properly, and many of those glitches were never fixed possibly due to how the client and server interacted.
Anyhow, feel free to chime in. I know for many people EQ was either the 1st MMORPG they played or maybe the first they sunk a lot of time into and we always like to look back through rose-colored glasses.
I must say World of Warcraft. (Not being a fan boy) I have certain things that need to be fullfilled to get me immersed. First I need response to my actions on the keyboard in the character. If I just tap the key very fast I need to see the character make a little twich. The mouse has the react on even the smallest movement I make. And I must have jumping I get a heartattack if a game doesn't have jumping. For me the spacebar is there only for 1 thing, jumping. Way to few mmo's do this. Wow is one of the few that does. Guild Wars, SWG and most older mmo's don't feel very responsive.
Second I need a hand made gameworld. There is nothing worse than looking at a plane with trees generated upon. With generated world you get a bigger world, yes but it will be ugly.
World of Warcraft offers a 100% handmade world. The trees are placed in a realistical way. They grow on places where real trees would grow. The attention to detail is awesome. Even in totally weird places you can find small signs of that the developer actually has looked at this place. There are tons of easter eggs spread across the world. It's one of the mmo's with really high mountains and cliffs. You can climb them and jump down. Nothing is like jumping from IF or of the big dam in Loch Modan. No other mmo has ever given me that option. I have yet to find any "bugs" in the terrain. No trees are floating in the air. If there have been any they have been fixed pretty fast in one of the patches.
The world also has to look cool. It's not fun to walk around in a world where it's the same colors everywhere. This is where Wow does great. The trees look sweet and some of the ares have some mindblowing color combinations. My favourites are Azshara, Darkshore, Desolace and the Maraudon dungeon.
A UI that blends in with the game world is a must. A fantasy game needs a fantasy interface, while a scifi game needs a scifi interface. It shouldn't be to big either. As small as possible. World of Warcraft fullfills this great and Eve-online isn't to bad there either.
But most important is the seamless terrain nothing detroys the immersion more than a loading screen. Seamless terrain is a must. World of warcraft and L2 are the only ones offering this feature right now (as far as I know). If a developer can't offer me that, then atleast don't write "loading entities" on your loading screen!
One thing the world of Wow is lacking. Weather effects. The game that has the best weather effects is Saga of Ryzom. Seing a storm there is lovely. What I don't understand that no mmo has offered rain on water effects like in Morrowind. Was dissapointed when I saw that EQ2 didn't have that.
Edit:
Reading abit more of the other posts I noticed many are writing about the most immersive game mechanics. Not the most immersive gameworld.
My definition of immersive directly correlates with two factors: the first and most important being the ability for individual player(s) to change the world, and the second are world events that change from time to time. For that reason, I consider WoW to be one of the least immersive games on the market. Darkmoon Faire and a few smaller events have made some small improvements on the immersion factor but the fact is - no player or guild can change any part of the world. In fact, other than the BG zone entrance additions the every server is still the same world it was when the game released. I don't see how people can feel immersed in such a static world.
My nod for most immersive would have to go to Eve Online. Wars are constantly raging and regional territories switching sides. New events that are often relevant to the player base are constantly arising - changing the scape of the galaxy. The market prices actually change based on actual supply and demand. Even your faction standings with NPCs mean something more than a 10% discount off of goods. The breadth of options a player has is astounding. For these reasons, I consider Eve to be the most immersive MMORPG on the market.
hmm do you understand what emmersive is?
World of warcraft is one of few who realy is open exploring world with wonderfull cenery and differnet looking landscapes.
What FFXI is none of that its boring looking and its make of different servers every differnt landsacpe is n a new server you have to load in its not alive at all:P
WoW is one off best but only thing i miss is weather and trees blow in wind or grass only in oasis they move(barrens).
But music makes up for that every eco system in wow have different sound with animals and birds and insects.
L2 yes is also total open enviroment but its boring and sound is very plain and simple.
WoW for me hands down and ive played most mentiond above.
If weather system in wow then it would be best ever.
ryzom ive only played beta and thought it was crap, but maybe they chance alot after beta ryzom?
my two euro cents
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Would be a tossup between Eve and UO for me, Although I do have to give a nod to FFXI as well simply because the things they do with Events, music, sounds and such are incredible.
Uo, it was the player run cities that players could layout however they saw fit, the crafting system that made logical sense, the harvesting system that made logical sense, Role playing guilds like the Orc Clan, and of course Clothes and the simple ability to customize your character just about any way you saw fit. I still to this day Find myself annoyed at some of the little things that were in UO that no modern MMO bothers to put in.
Eve has a very realistic feel to it from an immersion standpoint, while the game was not for me it is well done. Although it would have been nice to be able to potentially explore planets and such, instead of being cooped up permanently in the spacecraft.
I cannot argue with the examples you give to support your position. Individually crafted items (and indeed any way to make your character unique within the confines of the game milieu) are a good way to allow players some degree of creative expression without vandalizing the game world. Similarly, the bridge building event in Horizons was well implemented as it enabled characters of all levels to be part of the process even if it was just carrying lumber. This was better done than say the plague or frogloks in EQ2 which seemed to designed just to give the higher levels something to do. If world-changing events can involve the whole player base, rather than just the end-game rushers looking to stamp their authority, then they can add enormously to the immersion for all. I particularly like your investigative idea and the notion of rewarding the clever rather than just the time-rich.
My point was simply that in the context of a licensed game, major player-added content (cities etc) needs to be quality-controlled to ensure that it fits within the existing game lore. The Horizons event worked well because it fit within (and advanced) what was known of the game history and unfolding story (I think, it has been a long while). Nobody went into that game with fixed preconceptions about the game world, but a licensed game like LoTROL or SWG is a different kettle of ewoks. Developers know that a good license can draw huge numbers of players who love the source material that the game is based on, but they also need to appreciate that they cannot be as cavalier with that material as they can with the worlds they create themselves. In these games, the key to immersion for many is in how convincingly the game reproduces what is already known and that can be difficult to reconcile with the wishes of those for whom immersion is proportionate to the degree of control over the environment. These aren't necessarily antagonistic viewpoints, it just requires the developers to be more judicious.
I have only played 2 mmorpgs, SWG and WOW. I like the artwork in WOW, but for me SWG was amazing in terms of immersion.
The planet Tatooine really was amazing, and I really got that "high technology yet backworld dump, abandoned by civilisation" kinda feel from it, kind of lonely and seedy yet beautiful.
For me immersion will trigger these feelings in you, whether good or bad.
Maybe because of the films my subconcious had more to work with, but the deserts of Tatooine made me feel.. wierd, its hard to explain, kind of depressed but in a aesthetically pleasing way lol
Tried to write a reply a bit back, but an area-wide DSL disconnect brought grief to my online-life. (Scowl)
Totally agree with what you've said here, particularly on the point of an existing license and the expectations of "seeing the familiar", so to speak.
I look back at the introduction of UO, AC1, and EQ1, and I see three games that took radically different approaches to their game mechanics and their attitudes to what constituted their "MMORPG" concept. Not just perspective (UO being 3/4 angle down, the other two being 1st/3rd perspective), but the actual game mechanics involved. There were actual innnovation being tried, ideas to involve the player in the world attempted. Look at things like DAoC, which brought in well-executed realm-vs-realm mass combat; Shadowbane, with full PvP with consequences; etc. I've already made the distinctions about Horizons clear. Attempts to involve players in the mechanics and to use the mechanics to let the players play flexibly.
It's like the efforts suddenly dried up. WoW brought nothing new to the table, just a polished presentation of their static sandbox. EQ2 introduced at launch so many ingame artificial barriers to immersive gameplay that it was staggering to think of it coming from the folks who made EQ1. I look at the games coming and there is hope among them of some actual player-involving mechanics within the context of the environment.
I think there's a particular reticence on the part of devs working with established licenses (since the early days, 'cause UO certainly worked with an established license and brought in tons of player-involving mechanics) to try anything more than just creating their sandbox and putting players in it. Part of it may be fear of "spoiling" the environment from that license -- oops, they mis-did Tattoine, that'll piss off people and ruin expectations. Ditto to giving players mechanics that can change Tattoine much -- but that in and of itself is a static approach, based on the thinking that players want to "go places they're heard of and seen" and not that, in the long run, the players want to be able to "live" in that same place and feel like they're actually doing things that constitute "living" within an online environment. I don't want to visit a static tavern on Tattoine; i want the capacity to set up my own. I want to feel like I'm actually roleplaying within the environment of the Star Wars galaxies instead of just walking "inside the painting".
I think the failing in terms of player-centric immersive gameplay comes from that "caution". And it's a profound pity.
I agree with you re. EQ2. It's like some heroin-chic model, pretty on the surface but the bones are disturbingly evident.
To go back to the subject of licenses, SWG did Tatooine (etc) perfectly. However, what SoE should have done IMO was to let players become involved in the development of the existing cities, expanding them, developing them and vying for influence. When I left the game, Mos Eisley was a ghost town rather than a "wretched hive of scum and villainy". Players could have breathed life into those places, instead of sucking it out of them by moving the focus to Mos Vegas or wherever.
I think that developers tend to restrict themselves by setting licensed games within inflexible event/time frames. Had SWG been set outside of the times covered by the films they might have been better able to incorporate change without offending the Star Wars purists. Turbine seem to be following a similar theme with LoTR. Last time I looked (and it was months ago), the game was going to take place within a very limited space of time just after the Fellowship leave Moria. They obviously want to appeal to fans of the films rather than just hardcore Middle Earth junkies in order to capture a wider audience, but it's such a narrow slice of Middle Earth history that I think they're going to have difficulty creating anything other than a very static environment. No matter how long you play the game, the events of the story will progress at a completely different pace. Setting the game in a less familiar and well-documented period of history (e.g. TA 1649, the standard time setting of ICE's superb MERP p&p rpg) would have given much more scope more developer and player creativity.
Wasn't actually criticising the implementation of Tattoine, just using it as an example of how they were thinking before they released the game, while they were designing it. I'd agree that it was implemented well, within terms of their game mechanics.
Wow (not the game). I'm actually enjoying a conversation on an online forum, and it hasn't degenerated into the idiocy that usually happens. No postings from the "I hate company -x- and therefore I'm right when I say really transparently-stupid things" or its ilk. Color me impressed.