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Why PvP sucks - Or Anarchy vs Law
Rattrap
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,599
PvP what a wonderfull concept ! Matching your skill against a living human mind
in battle of wits and strenght ! How much better than battling mindles pieces of code... 
I bet we all agree on that. But then comes the Ganker ... grazes trough level 2 population with his lvel 40 character. Unfair ? Same level is fair ... So lets try again. Then comes the Ganker and slays lev 40 crafter with his lev 40 uber fighting behemoth. 
You say its fair. You say thats life. The problem is , its not....
In life there were always bullies who can crush another in instant , and always they were willing to do so.
That is why dating millions of years in past humans invented law.
So the uber bully can not just go beating everyone up as he wishes...or he will be beaten soon by even bigger bully , or imprisoned...or worse.
Simple formula.... But Where is it in MMORPG's?
Why are mmorpgs in state of constant ANARCHY ? 
My guess is because the developers are to lazy to develop any law system in the games...what is your guess ?
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
Comments
Because people play games to escape reality and do something without the rules of life... If a bully in real life kills a person, does that person just have to run from a resurection shine to find his body, and then he is restored even without any harm done?
With pk punishment follows perma death... don't you think I have a point?
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Well I actually think it would not work... Someone could just make a char and go ingame and kill someone... If he get cought he wouldn't mind at all, because he havn't lost anything but a meaningles char. How would a system to prvent this work? I'm pretty sure I would be able to find a flaw in any system...
Permadeath still won't eliminate griefers because they'll just open a new account with a smurf name or purchase an already exsisting account. The only way you can eliminate griefers is by making it impossible or totally boring and pointless. Hence, no looting and short rez times of current MMORPGs. Unfortunately, that takes away from the PvP endgame and...... you get the picture.
I've pleaded the cause of a meaningful law system in mmorpgs. Some games attempt it, but it's generally the coding that is lacking and the background of the US justice system that lays in the way of a true way to police in game. I won't go into detail but I'm sure someone with a background in law can understand the difference between the european form of justice and the american system and why either one would be hard to implement.
Above all that the designers can't make the punishments too hard due to the need to sell their product. Rather then finding a solution to bring together both sides (those that love to PK and those that don't like to be ganked) they take care of half of the issues of each side. Seeing how those that love to PK have a greater amount of griefers amongst their ranks and are lower in numbers they usually pull the short end of the straw.
I remember my first experience in "Graal" where I got instapk'ed while my screen was still loading. I remember my first PvP combat experience in Ryzom where I was invited to fight in a polite manner. I remember my first PvP combat experience in Nexustk where I enterred an organized PK game. Lastly I remember my first PK experience in Eternal Lands enterring a PK enabled map.
The above are just four basic examples of how the PvP combat systems are currently handled. In none of these situations is the one killing another punished for "murder". I can understand that in example two and three, both parties choose to fight till death. In the first case there was a form of griefing involved that should be punished. In the last case again it all depends on how the fight was started, why and so on. However from a pure rp point of view the last case can still be considered as murder.
As we make an online society I don't see it possible to continue and sustain this form of Anarchy as pointed out above. I do however see the need for this PvP combat in online games. Competing with others is one of the things humans like to do, it's generally considered as fun. As to what gameplay tools are available, I leave the developpers their own pick. There's plenty out there that don't require too much programming and finding the balance between sides might cater for one of the greatest mmorpg titles of all times. As long as "ganking" and "griefing" is possible with the use of the PvP system it'll be unbalanced and as long as you can walk around "riskfree" it'll be unbalanced.
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[quote]Originally posted by MandolinDesigners need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.[/b][/quote]
I really start to get tired of these PvP threads popping up latetly since in the end they all revolve around the same arguments. But!!! This sentence is so true that it's already sig worthy.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
All i was saying is PvP is enjoyable, that is right.
But there are Gankers. People that enjoy ruining the day of another person and in the same time exposing them selves to minimum risk.
Law in MMORPG's would be an excelent solution for this.
If for some reason your PK kill would be deemed unlawfull (i would not enter to deep into how and why for now) you would be flagged as wanted. This making you be target of both NPC guards,police and possibly PC bounty hunters. The more flagged you get the NPC forces would be bigger and perhaps more actively search for you , and the bounty on your head would grow. Finnaly being killed by above mentioned would redeem your Outlaw status proportionaly.
This sistem is not only good in preventing Ganking (since gankers would now face Risks in their actions, and would not do it as lightly) But would also provide the whole new ballgame , trowing in rogues, outlaws , bounty hunters - as risky and interesting options in gameplay.
And for ones that enjoy PK it would add fantastic new flawour - by adding nned to hide in forests as bandits or to be brave PK bounty hunters searching for dangerous outlaws...
Hell this system is so elegant and logicall, before i entered world of MMORPG gaming i persumed all the games have it...
As i said..lazyness
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
To the OP
If you want a system of law like that because it's more realistic (still don't know why that is a good reason to put something in fantasy or some other mmorpgs), you would have to accept that there would not always be someone around to protect you. The police usually don't arrive in time.
You'd also have to accept that if no one saw you being pked, whoever did it would probably never be caught. If no one ever even found your body, (even in a modern day or sci fi mmo), no one would ever be able to figure out what happened to you.
You don't even seem to take into account that there are LAWLESS areas or areas that are so torn apart by conflict that they are practically lawless. Many of the environments we enter in mmorpgs are kindgoms torn by strife, etc. etc. Even in games with stable kingdoms there would probably still be lawless areas of wilderness or areas that make it impossible to find someone's corpse.
You never give any specific examples of games where ganking occur. I know for instance though; many of the games that actually allow someone level 40 to fight someone level 2 against there will, usually DO have some form of law. In Lineage 2, there are guards in village and no pvp in villages; that is law. If you wanted the law to extend over ever part of the wilderness of lineage, that would be less realistic.
In any game (none of which I can think of) where it is open pvp absolutely anywhere...well maybe that is just how it is there. And usually the world of that mmorpg is only part of somewhere...just one planet or something. Well, it is the lawless part. If you don't like it; why not play a different game?
If you want to think of things realistically, there are forces sometimes that are greater than law. This can cause lawlessness and chaos. Sometimes those forces just become the new law and it starts all over again. You speak of law like it is some kind of concrete wall against the unpleasant things that happen to you in games or something. In the real world, the law is corrupt, and people get away with things.
This is all pretty ridiculous though. You are saying because MAN has always had some form of law (which is arguable). Man is not orcs or the extraterrestrial race of whoever.
Really I don't understand what you are arguing for. You mention no specific game. Do you want all games do have the forms of law you propose? If you want bounty hunting, play EVE online.
That's disputable. One person video games do in no manner compare to real life. MMO's have real life dynamics and can be compared to it as to the structure or form of society. When people spend 8-12 hours a day in a on line videogames with other people present doing the same thing you'ld have to start asking yourself which part is the so called real life to them.
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That would mean perma death would have to be implemented.
The need people have to bring this kind of topic up is griefers. Griefers are the bullies of online games, they tend to be disliked by the largest part of the population. If someone has a weapon (even words against an imbecile is a weapon) and uses it to fight you while you have no means to defend yourself it makes things less enjoyable, for the common good we installed laws in real life. For the common good of mmorpg's law should be installed and enforced by gameplay to counter those out to lessen fun for others.
P.S. : I liked the ideas of lawless areas and law restrictions but I got no time, no more work.
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Ah nevermind. Gankers aside. I just think this system would make the game more interesting , more layered. Would bring a great point of interest. And a chalenge for PVPers - real challenge.
This would be a great idea for implementing in MMORPG's
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But you who still read this post, know one thing i noticed.
There is a whole lot of idiots in this world. Some of them play mmorpg's. Some of them like the challenge!
Wow! I allready picture this idiot who is shunned by everybody sitting in front of his computer. He is playing UO! Wow , he played it for a year now ... patiently waiting for this moment! He circles the evil victim ! It is S1rN00bster level 1 cleric. He moves in for the kill! Wham ! Another victim falls under his feet!
Idiot is happy! Finnaly he is worth something! What a rush! He is the best , he is the pwnoor!
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We love you Idiot. We recognise the need for therapeutic influence of MMORPG's in your life.
Heck most of MMORPG's are made for you! Enjoy!
Go Gank, go PWN!
Soon you will find there is nobody to PWN there is nobody to Gank. Noobsters moved on , they dont need your shit. Heck nobody needs your shit (and you know it well from the real life).
And again you are alone....
Enjoy my dear Idiot....
And flame flame
for me you are the n00b 
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
I think if you pk someone you should go red. When you go red the following happens.
1)NPC Guards attack you automaticlly (and these guards are UBER)
2)Your red, so people can kill you without going red and loot all your stuff.
3)You cant get rid of being red without dieing.
4)You cant get xp or skill gains when red.
Basicly, this will get rid of pking (mostly). No one would dare pk with fear of losing all there things.
Duels are ok. If you duel you wont go red.
RF Online|LostGrace-3x Cora Caster-Spirit Server-Active
Lineage 2|LostGrace-4x Elemental Summoner-Gustin Server-Deactivated, Kiltor-3x Elven Oracle-Gustin Server-Baned T_T
Ah skelz! I knew it was only a matter of time before you showed up! Once again you entirely missed his points.
He was saying games ARNT like real life when someone ganks you and says "Thats life!". And your still not being very intelligent, please improve your mental capacity before speaking.
To the guy that said "Cry more N00b!" Your prime example #1 of the morons who pollute most games today, your post contributed absolutly nothing and you have just made everyone bop you down a notch on the IQ scale.
Now then, I agree soem form of law is good, it would make some places safe for people, but not all. This is still good though, protect some beginner fields with gaurds and major PvE areas, give those Harcore guys the challenge they so long for, and at the same time balance out PvE and PvP. Of course using this system indeed wouldnt stop greifers, but its a pretty good idea.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
After reading some of this thread and many threads more like it I feel alot of Deja-vu. There seems to be an overwhelming desire by players to have some meaningful systems built into games to simulate consequences for their actions. I think this is great.
In response to the post about wilderness lawless areas. Of course games should have lawless areas. You kill somone one and that is the only place you can go. Try to come to capital city and the guards will pwn you. On the other hand lets say a good PC wants a little outlawed halucenagenic mold, he's gonna have to go to the lawless areas to get it, and well maybe if he is lucky and has enough money he might get out alive.
Someone said a problem with a perma death for murders system would be a griefer could just roll up a smurf and go bomb a crowd or something. Lets call this the suicide bomber case. Maybe a griefer could roll a character up and kill another n00b, but he shouldn't be able to PK anyone with any time in there PC. There could be controls for thi, like howabout you have three character slots but you can only roll up one a week, Or even better, if a murder gets Permadeathed that character slot gets suspended for a month.
Someone made some D&D comparisons. Back when I played it was essential that no one knew anything more about the other PCs then was told. This made a cool meta game of trying to guess classes and alignments based on the characters actions. One of my favortie things to do was play a bard and keep everyone guessing. How lame is it that I can click on someone and instantly know their level and class.
Someone else said that once a murder your a murderer tell your dead. I think that kills off alot of role play oppurtunites. What if there was something you could do to regain your status. Like kill off 20 murderers. Or go a month without a crime.
In short I wish there was a system like Eve on land.
Taking this even further, (and yes I believe rudimentary law is more than possible; it's also a good idea
) what happened to the clan and cabal systems that were used in MUD's?
I played a MUD where upon reaching level cap, or at some point close to it, you picked a CABAL or clan, and got some new powers. This is basically what drove the endgame. You had JUSTICE, and SYNDICATE (Police versus Bounty Hunters) NEXUS and KNIGHT (bad guys versus good guys) and WARMASTER and SAVANT (Melee versus Caster). Anyways, any of these CABALS could go to war with any other one at any given time, but there were obviously ones that warred more than others.
Keeping this on topic though, the JUSTICE cabal, and SYNDICATE cabals were in charge of making sure no complele jerk offs roamed around unchallenged. JUSTICE upheld the law, whatever that was. In this particular game the law was limited to breaking rules in the cities that were allied with JUSTICE. However, this type of system would work with just about any ruleset you wanted players to enforce. Simply code in some violations, and when a player was caught in the act, PC JUSTICE sentinels were alerted to the crime and it's location. They also had powerful special abilities that they could use against anyone who commited the crime, and instead of killing them the simply knocked them unconscious. and they were teleported to a city jail where they were stripped of gold and executed. The JUSTICE were given the name of the perpetrator, but only had a limited amount of time to catch him before they themselves would be guilty of a crime if they tried to attack after their time had expired.
The SYNDICATE was much like the bounty system that I've heard is in place in EvE right now. And from everything I've gathered, this is one of the more popular systems in that game. Basically there were places in cities where you could anonymously place bounties on someone. It was totally up to the PCs of SYNDICATE whose head's they chose to collect, so the higher the bounty the more likely it would be fulfilled. You could also request ONE item from the corpse of the victim once fulfilled, and it would appear in your mailbox once the bounty was complete. It also had to be limited to non-rare, non player bound items, and within your level range to use. The SYNDICATE themselves however were also able to rummage through a players inventory, and take whatever gold they had on them as well as a limited number of items, although the same restrictions still applied.
Anyways those systems have always been great systems in my opinion, and I've wondered why they were never implemented in graphical MMO's. Maybe it's just because we're only the 3rd generation or so away from playing text base. So bottom line is, you don't have to make things overly complex. There doesn't need to be trials, or defenses of any kind, or like one poster mentioned mimicing the judicial systems of the U.S. or Europe. All you simply do is code in certain violations, when a player does something that causes one of these violations he is guilty. No iffs ands or butts. There would be exploits early on, but that's what beta is for. Once the system is up and running, it's pretty reliable.
I am surprised hardcore, no life people didnt flame my first responce.
RF Online|LostGrace-3x Cora Caster-Spirit Server-Active
Lineage 2|LostGrace-4x Elemental Summoner-Gustin Server-Deactivated, Kiltor-3x Elven Oracle-Gustin Server-Baned T_T
hehe
Well, this is a very interesting topic to discuss.
Ive read some realy interesting ideas regarding law, anarchy and justice.I believe in general, games try to avoid fully open PvP with tangible personal rewards/losses becuase as a player, you rely on your internet connection to control your character in real time, so what happens when u get ambushed and in the most interesting moment you lose connection? You lose your life, your gold or items and depending on the game you may never be able to play that character again (perma death). So, there is another factor in game right now, and its internet. people may like the idea if a risk losing your life/items but they would definitely hate losing NOT becuase of their skills but becuase their ISP desided to performa maintanence on their network. I speak from personal experience, when i was playing UO and I simply lost collection, upon my return I find my character dead, its body striped and desecrated... all the time i invested into getting those items I had was wasted by one minute of bad connection.
Dont get me wrong, people like to risk, including me, but ONLY when that risk depends entirely on your skills and talents, not on how well your ISP works. Untill inet grows reliable, I dont think any game with open PvP and tangible or permanent results of your death/kill will have a wide popularity among players.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
The connection issue will go away as more people get Broadband. There will always be dail-up users, but eventually the majority of people online will be broadband. I have a cable connection and I don't really have to worry about disconnects in game. Usually, if there's a heavy storm, I'll lose my internet connection before I even turn on the computer. But I can just look at the cable modem and know if it's up or not.
Sigh...this is actually a flaw with a system overly focused on PvE. PvE games need so many levels to distract the player from the fact that there is no real content and to prevent players from skipping precious mob content. If the game was interesting to begin with and didn't rely entirely on defeating mobs, we wouldn't need to many levels and characters wouldn't be so unrealistically varied.