Balance in a MMORPG?

Clever_Glove

Balance has become a complicated issue for MMORPG's. Below I'll post thoughts I've had over the years while playing in my own attempt to answer, What does it take to be a balance game?

In PvP we'll define balance as every class having fair odds of defeating another. I think we can all understand that often there is a paper/rock/scissors type make up to make games. Your class weaknesses is anothers strength. There is nothing wrong this make-up, as long as scissors has a chance of defeating a equal leveled rock class even if the odds are a bit against the scissors.  scissors can try to avoided rocks, and go after papers.

The problem is to many games have created a paper/rock type system. You either the class that kills, or the one that dies, little can be done to effect this outcome.

PvE Balance is much more subjective and complicated. I define it in two ways
A. Utility: Every class adding something a group/raid beyond that of additional DPS.

B. DPS: Every class can solo something giving fair amounts of exp. This is at it's core DPS. Each class should have measurable about of DPS (damage per second). Granted group exp should be better than solo exp. But you do not need to penalize soloers to accomplish this. Groups kill things faster with less downtime. That alone is enough of a reason to group. If it isn't... then the game has some real problems.

Where games go bad.

A blow is a blow
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It's been a huge mistake for games of the past to consider a melee blow and a spell blow differently. By considering them the same you greatly simplify the game math and come much closer to balance system.  SB had a good idea, where AC = odds of a hit (spell or melee) and resists = how much of the blow you take once hit.

Manna?
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Most MMORPG's have 3 bars, health, manna, and stamina. What is the use of manna? In some way it's the price casters have to pay for doing 2 or 3 times the damage of a melee character. The theory is they can't hold up that amount of damage for long, so it's balanced with melee's since they can stay in the fight much longer... this has never been true. But they time a caster get's all those "uber lewtz" and other manna regen buffs and abilities, they can go nearly endless chain casting nukes.

There is a simple means of fixing this, do away with manna. Make spells like melee, you can cast a spell over and over again... but it has a cycle time. And you can say Melee hit for 40 each second, casters can hit for 80 every 2 seconds. Casters can still front load a bit, but over time will average out with melee types.

Granted games like SB and D2 have manna... but they might as well not have since it regens so quickly. Maybe you argue rapid manna regen == to no manna. Witch has always made me wonder why they added so much code for something that really isn't a game consideration.

If you want to keep classes from being forever in battle, balance it with stamina. Both swinging a weapon and casting a spell can cost stamina.

Spread the love around
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Be sure each class has some type of short term buff, or ability that boosts the performance of the group. This will ensure all classes will wanted in a group.

Never give a mandatory ability to a single class
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Role over lap is good. Never make a single class that can tank/rez/heal/buff ect. Classes should be better at some things than others, but making only one class that can [insert skill here] will only create bots to serve that function. While bots are good for the bottom line, they are bad for the community.

Nothing I find more frustrating that competing with bots to get into groups.

Counter the counter
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If you give casters a root, give classes a ability to break root. If you give a mute, give a counter mute.

PvP should be about picking skills and counter skills, not pounding a single button. Make people think on their feet.

Nothing is worse than getting rooted, and nuked to death without ever having a change to strike back. Or to mezzed/stunned for the entirety of a battle. If you give a ability give a counter to that ability.

Balance is balance
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Mobs should be like players, the problem with PvE vs PvP is mobs are big, dumb, hit like trucks, have to much HP, and generally come alone. If fighting mobs was remotely like fighting a group of players, balance would be much easier to obtain, and games would be more to play.

Many games have addressed this a bit, with "auto" aggro, making single pulls a think of the past. While a good step in the right direction, much is left to be done. Mobs are still overly melee centric... for example. They don't assist on targets, or attempt to CC the group.

In Short
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Games have become more unbalanced due to developers that stick to bad idea because "it's always been that way" so we're just going to keep doing it. Many think complicated ideas add game depth. Generally speaking the best games always have simple rules. It's far better for players to focus on tactics than manipulating game math.

All classes should bring something to a group, and be able to solo well. "key" abilities should be spread around. Abilities should have a counter ability. Improve mob AI, to function like human team work.

 

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"Playing EQ to the highend is like getting hit in the head over and over. When the hitting stops you start to miss the dizzy feeling. The lack of this "dizzy feeling" will ruin you to other MMORPG's"

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

Serien

I agree fully with the mana thing indeed.

another thing you missed...

Tanks take YEARS to heal...that really sucks

Clever_Glove

I'm not sure what game your referring to.

In EQ everyone that needs a heal can get a CH. As such CH has become the only spell clerics cast with regularity. The entire game become so dependant on it, it has ruined many aspects of the game. VI made a few half-asked attempts to fix it... without good results. The over dependency on clerics in EQ lives on! EQ clerics are a prime example of missbalace in PvE.

I prefer lower HP characters and smaller heals. Small heals allows for multitude healing classes in a single group, and (I would hope) allow healing classes to have other damage adding abilities.

Clicking buttons is allot more fun than not. Anything that allows healers to not sit on the there hands and be active is good... otherwise that role will fall to bots.

 

-=-=-=-=-
"Playing EQ to the highend is like getting hit in the head over and over. When the hitting stops you start to miss the dizzy feeling. The lack of this "dizzy feeling" will ruin you to other MMORPG's"

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

Lansid

*raises eyebrow*

Clerics heal.... and being of the "holy" nature they can nuke undead.

What else are they supposed to do?

Tank? Nope, Warrior-types job

Crowd Control? Nope, Enchanters job

Nuke? Nope, Wizard-types job

Kite? Nope, Druid's job

Solo? Nope, Necro's job

I agree that EQ's downtime on healing and medding is pretty out there and I have many empty packs of smokes due to that. But that was the way their system worked. One system I felt wasn't too horrible on the downtime was DAoC. A few minutes from 1hp to full as compared to EQ's 1/2 hour +. With DAoC I was able to solo a ton more than "have" to group up.

EQ had heavy emphasis on "grouping" so they tried to make classes dependant on eachother, not all bad in a way.

 

"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."

Clever_Glove

Clerics or "Heal only classes" (or HoC) are a obsolete idea, and are bad for MMORPG's. I have a post brewing somewhere on this topic. I'll give you a sneak peak at this concept.

SB and DAoC did a good job of making classes that could heal, but also had other roles, such as Prelates, Confessors and friars.

HoC's cause rapid mudflation, as a result you have a class few want to play but is mandatory. So bots dominate this class. Making classes few play, is just poor design. (See Nicks comments on class balance in SWG a few posts back)

Let's pretend for a moment Clerics didn't exist in EQ. Assume Druids, shaman could also rez. How would the game be Different? The entire game was "balanced" around having a Cleric healer, without the clerics, Druids and Shaman would be very good healers, and Hybrids would be acceptable healers.

What happens to EQ if you have 2 primary heal classes and 3 secondary heal classes? groups are easier to get going, you can have multiple members of the same healing class in each group, this allows healers to be healers when they want, or slowers, nukers, Dot's, buffers... whatever at other times. As is every EQ group need a cleric... but only a cleric. This also takes a role away that a druid of shaman might of had.

Role-over lap is good for the game. There never be a single role class.

It's not a issue of what else would clerics do, it's a issue why do they exist?

In EQ VI has come to terms with this, they have stated as such, but it's to late now. What they need to do now, is give clerics more utility to make them fun to played... and played poorly as a bot. but this is getting off topic.

The 2nd point.

Classes do not need to be penalized in order to make dependances on grouping. People have a inherit need to group. groups kill things faster and with lower risk than you can solo.  Game makers should not penalize people for not grouping nor should they make group only classes. (the group penalty in EQ is one of the biggest game blunders ever)

All classes should be able to solo, and have something to add to a group. Mandatory roles shold be shared amoung several classes.

 

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"Playing EQ to the highend is like getting hit in the head over and over. When the hitting stops you start to miss the dizzy feeling. The lack of this "dizzy feeling" will ruin you to other MMORPG's"

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

Sensei_Kaels

I totally agree with the idea that they made everyone dependant on clerics heals, shamans had good heals, but because of clerics they werent even wanted in groups, shamsns can solo pretty well with all their 80k+ spells, but most cant afford those. And druids, well, they can quad kite, but after a while that gets boring. They should have added some spells to the cleric class tomake it more interesting, or they should have just gotten rid of it. With the way its set now, they should take healing from druids and shamans, as there is no point, and just increase their other spells.. or something.

I kind of disagree with the whole *counter* everything. I would like it, but it wouldnt work very well. Say caster *A* roots melee *A* and melee a uses counter and gets free..caster mezzes, but melee counters..melee is now with caster meleeing him down, caster cant root because the melee will counter.. it would just make caster spells useless since everyone would counter, unless you give them like a 1 counter per minute limit. Or something like that.

 

Class balancing is a big problem in DAOC, they had some classes overpowered (left axe/savages) and some classes were horrible (some say mercenaries are bad, and that necro pets have bad pathing). And they need to make a change in never end rvr in DAOC. Because right now, its only Zergs-Long Range Casters- & Stealthers. No point in being a melee unless your in a zerg because there is a bolter waiting for u or a group of stealthers.. ull get wasted.

Clever_Glove

obviously abilities would have reuse times, or some other restriction. So you could not unlimitedly root and break root...ect. Purge is somewhat like this. But I like to have boat loads of very spefic abilities, this makes you think on your feet, instead of just having one "wonder" button to push. It adds a little skill to a RPG.

 

The problem with DAoC it's to much like EQ. They have 2 sets of rules for Melee and spells. A hit isn't a hit in DAoC. As such they having a dickens of a time getting some level balance achieved. (see above on game math) It'll take a few more MMORPG generations until the bad ideas of EQ can be shed.

Speaking of DAoC mezz has no place in PvP. It's no fun being killed without a opportunity to fight back.. or run. Worse you get to sit and your group die, until it's your turn.

-=-=-=-=-
"Playing EQ to the highend is like getting hit in the head over and over. When the hitting stops you start to miss the dizzy feeling. The lack of this "dizzy feeling" will ruin you to other MMORPG's"

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

Lansid

#1. Clerics aren't "HoC", they're just one of the best at it. Their Stuns are quite effective, and they ARE the destroyers of undead, their mana efficency for the damage and recast time was incredible. Problem is... very few people "exploit" that fact, and just USE the class for the "bot healing"

#2. Did you "play" Shadowbane? Confessors owned, I should know I WAS one. They also were the prime example of what happened when you gave ONE character the best of everything. They had infinite mana/hp if raised right. They could nuke like nobody's buisness, DOT, and snare. Basically, a too good of a class, and a perfect solo class. Prelates were very good healers, and their nukes for a "healer" class.

#3. It's more the "bot attitudes" of players rather than "bot classes". So you have a druid or shaman that's great in all aspects of the class wanting to join a party. The ubergamers do the math and realize that with what they're camping you're class is not "efficent" enough to justify them taking a chance on dying.... which brings me to...

#4. The class system in EQ wasn't the most retarded thing... it was the Experience Treadmill. Face it, who really WANTED to die and lose twelve hours of leveling? Yes, yet another reason a cleric's a "bot" is for the res+xp recovery... but take away the MAJOR XP debt... then is it such a needed thing, or more of a convenience?

#5. There is a very popular game where the "cleric" class doesn't exist. Play UO, you can be whatever you want.

"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."