Would deffinantly agreee with you there, this game will be the ultimate. Would prefer a PvP SERVER, just one is all i ask =p. They will make it eventually, despite what everyone says. But would like ot have one on launch.
I find it gratifying that some dev's somewhere finnally thought "Hey, we should add defensive specials in combat!" This alone has raised my opion of SoH from, "meh" to "hmm.."
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Originally posted by krenalor Originally posted by angerr i don't know, nor have i met anyone that doesn't like to raid, these arguments you try to make about raiding are so stupid imo. raiding is grouping (just a bigger group) and it is a huge part of wow,eq,eq2 and all the other popular mmorpg's. raids are no different than groups, its just alot funner to be in a guild that can do stuff like that. do you have to raid? no, who said you did?really.... how many posts are you going to make talking about how you don't like raiding? I DESPISE raiding and know the majority of players feel the same way! I could give or take on PvP, depends how much fun it is and fairly balanced classes wise. I love Guild Wars PvP, due to class balances. Hated EQ PvP, classes esp kiting classes, made melee total gimps, except perhaps SK. The point is raiders can have raid gear as long as it doesn't effect GROUPING oportunities, and when "whats your AC and hps?" the ONLY consideration for good zone exp in GROUPS, and it REQUIRES raiding to get to the proper levels, the game is done for. In no way can you call WoW a PvP or raid game, and it is wildly successful, moreso then EQ. The reason why is it has a LITTLE bit of raiding and PvP but not a whole game based on it, and raid gear isn't grossly overpowered unlike EQ.
there is alot of truth in your post but i have to disagree with the majority of players don't like to raid. you could say a majority of casual players don't like to raid i would agree with that but the vanguard fanbase is generally not going to be casual gamers and they are going to want to raid.
also just because they totally screwed up pvp balance in eq doesn't mean vanguard will, i still had alot of fun on a pvp server even though i got my butt kicked alot.
im not entirely sure how much raiding vanguard will have at release but if you don't like to raid or you don't have the time it might be best to stick to a game like wow where it is balanced more for the casual player and you don't have to raid if you don't want to and still compete.
but i honestly think as long as you can have good enough hp and ac to group and take out the the most powerful mobs designed for groups that there shouldn't be a problem, just as long as there is enough content IMO
i have to say content is a catch to any game like the FF series and the best game ever FF7 yah its not a mmorpg but its the rpg that started it all. the content was so great it felt awesome pvp is only as good as the content of a game like what are u fighting for just cuz or is there a bigger reason. if ur nations is being over run that makes u want to pvp because you have a reason to. content u need in any mmorpg for players to stay or it just gets boring over time kill this kill that gg. so check out RF online go to the forums i have awesome pics and vids @_@
PVP is great in a game designed for PVP. PVE is great in a game designed for PVE.
How do you design a game with equal consideration for PVP and PVE? Where some classes by design and PVE necessity are not overly useful in PVP combat (warrior taunt abilities for example). Also, where game evolution increases mob difficulty (more hp, more resistances, bigger damage) and therefore ups the damage output of players, which then makes dps classes too powerful against other classes in PVP.
If you are gonna have both in the game, then you are asking for trouble. In WoW PVP has caused nerfs to so many useful features for the PVE game, and PVE has likewise caused as many problems for PVP, such as high resistances and mages. Why would anyone want PVP that by the nature of the game is always going to be undermined by PVE balance concerns?
Wouldn't it be better to have your PVP and PVE seperate? Either in different games, or as one poster on the Vanguard forums suggested, seperate spheres of gameplay in the same game. (an idea that i found wonderful). As most of you probably know, the game has different spheres of gameplay; adventuring, crafting and diplomacy.
This poster (forgotten his name) suggested that a 4th sphere (PVP) be added. Meaning that you actual level up PVP abilities seperately from PVE, and have different skills available in the different spheres, no crossover stuff. So resistances that you so desperately need against a PVE Fire boss for example, have no effect in your PVP game, where perhaps PVP resistances and defences must be learned or gained only from the PVP sphere. This would also allow for better balance between classes as well. Wonderful idea, if perhaps a little difficult to implement.
I hate raiding. Anything that forces grouping is lame.
I am a soloer by nature, but found myself grouping more in WoW than any other MMOG I have played. How do you explain that? It's because WoW did not force grouping, as it is the most solo friendly game around. I grouped because I wanted to, not because I had to. Soloers will reject forced grouping every time. Unfortunately, Vanguard seems to be mandating group/raid playstyle above soloing so it will not be solo friendly.
Vanguard is also making crafters dependent on groups in order to make the better crafted items. More lame forced grouping.
I do think PvP can add a positive element to a MMOG if it is done right and is a much better alternative for so called "end game" content than repetitive raiding. WoW PvP is a joke as it does not contain gain or loss. It's just a zergfest. True PvP needs item looting of some kind which provides motivation for gain and caution for loss, but elements need to be in place to prevent ganking.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev I hate raiding. Anything that forces grouping is lame. I am a soloer by nature, but found myself grouping more in WoW than any other MMOG I have played. How do you explain that? It's because WoW did not force grouping, as it is the most solo friendly game around. I grouped because I wanted to, not because I had to. Soloers will reject forced grouping every time. Unfortunately, Vanguard seems to be mandating group/raid playstyle above soloing so it will not be solo friendly. Vanguard is also making crafters dependent on groups in order to make the better crafted items. More lame forced grouping. I do think PvP can add a positive element to a MMOG if it is done right and is a much better alternative for so called "end game" content than repetitive raiding. WoW PvP is a joke as it does not contain gain or loss. It's just a zergfest. True PvP needs item looting of some kind which provides motivation for gain and caution for loss, but elements need to be in place to prevent ganking.
Forced grouping? No but you wont get the best rewards from soloing. VG is a group baised game if you want the best rewards you will need to group, thats not say you can get to the max level solo but you would be pretty gimped in gear that someone of the same class they grouped/raided to the same level, it would also take you alot longer. Same goes for crafters if you want to make the best stuff you will need the help of adventures much in the same way adventures will need crafters to get the best stuff.
Hello all, first post in a long while. Seems this site still hates Firefox....but that's not the point.
To everyone complaining about lack of PvP content, or how the game wont pull cusomers from other games without focusing on PvP, fans of PvE have been starving for a new PvE-centric game. While I agree PvP has it's place, many of us prefer the idea of adventuring, exploring, and treasur-hunting to "pwning" other players in a fight. THESE are the people that will be pulled from other games, as there is little else currently on the market for us that's actually done well, while the diehard PvP'ers will remain happy with what they've got. See how everyone wins when every game is not geared toward the same audience? And yes, there is a large PvE audience. Many are not quite as vocal on the message boards and such, but we're out there. Does that mean I dislike PvP? Absolutely not. I enjoyed WoW's PvP system quite a bit, but PvE being my main attraction to an MMORPG, and WoW lacking in that department, I eventually split paths with that game.
To those complaining about raiding and forced grouping. You may not like to raid, but no one is ever forced to. Many people like to solo, myself included, but to make it possible throughout your entire career in a game would compromise the challenge Sigil is trying to give this game. Remember, their focus is on presenting a challenge, and promoting a healthy community. Forging friendships and alliances through combat, and learning whom you can entrust your safety to. The idea of being the "lone wolf" while appealing, doesnt work well in an MMORPG seeing as how unlike those books and movies, the story isnt about just one person, but everyone. Else you end up with PvE like that of WoW where you can max out in a matter of weeks without ever so much as speaking to another player, which, as far as my personal opinion goes anyway, defeats the purpose of the M in MMORPG....um, the 2nd M I mean. Back to raiding, I agree that it really is the same as grouping but on a larger scale. A raid, after all, really is just a group with more people in it. I see little difference between getting 5 people together to fight a creature 1 cant handle, and getting 20 people together to fight a creature 5 cant handle. Some may feel as though their role diminishes in a group of 20 rather than a group of 5, but its all in your personal perspective of things. While one person may view themselves as a face in the crowd, another's self perception may be that of a vital part of a greater whole. Again, raiding has never, in my experiences, been something that was necessity, only an added luxury and "end game" entertainment.
I guess I've said all that I wanted to (and then some). Just keep in mind that just because a game is focused on an audience that you're not a part of, doesnt make it a bad game. If it's not for you, it's not for you. It'll definately be for someone. I remain optimistic and cant wait to find out if Sigil does what they say they can.
Personally, I enjoy grouping and raiding, there are frustrating times to be had when trying to put the two together, but when it happens, it's exciting! I also enjoy soloing and exploring by myself, and never really had any major concern with balancing the two. I would like to be rewarded tho for exploring and finding hidden treasures or bosses killed to get loot by soloing randomly. But I believe also the best stuff will be found in epic areas where numbers will count, ala raiding/grouping. It will be interesting to see how Sigil will handle epic loot drops, will they be soulbound on pick up or equiped, like WoW. Because if they aren't then the soloer will have access to those high-end items through purchase or trades, auctions, etc. Getting to the max lvl and getting highest end stuff, should only be one of the players goals. Believe me I love loot content, but I also like the content where it's a quest to be solved and rewarded in a form of a new spell/ability/talent/etc. Or a story arc that is to be played out with other players. Giving the players plenty of opportunities to diverse themselves by having original experience in the game, which can't be compared by many others. This is the major challenge of any MMORPG. And for your $15per month it should be met! Of course this is my opinion.
Love soloing, could take or leave PvP. Played Wow characters to 52, 30, 28, and a slew of <20 characters, never participated in any more PvP then running across some enemies in the wild and attacking (i.e. no battlegrounds) or defending a city from attackers. most of my friends didn't PvP.
However, lost in all this discussion is what, IMO is the thing most other Mmos do wrong.
Endgame content. PvP, PvE, whatever, when you hit endgame and the only thing to do is collect loot...
I haven't played a ton of MMOs, but this is why WoW lost me and why other games will as well. Hopefully someone does it right soon..
Edit: and as far as the 'novel' idea of defensive moves...WoW had them for warriors...this system sounds a bit more strategic, but shield block essential (for improved revenge)
I usually don't like pvp. The only game that has gotten it close to right for me is DAoC. Every other game seems to think pvp means ganking people who are 50 levels lower than you, or ganking people who are xping. DAoC is the only game I know of that pits people who want to pvp against each other. As far as I'm concerned these other games should be called gankfest not pvp.
Originally posted by brostyn I usually don't like pvp. The only game that has gotten it close to right for me is DAoC. Every other game seems to think pvp means ganking people who are 50 levels lower than you, or ganking people who are xping. DAoC is the only game I know of that pits people who want to pvp against each other. As far as I'm concerned these other games should be called gankfest not pvp.
Mythic, the makers of DAOC, are coming out with Warhammer online, hope to see you there Brostyn! I can't wait, and the Warhammer universe has such a storyline its been begging for a game to be released. I am not interested in Vanguard beyond a few months gaming, maybe. I am really waiting for a DAOC style PvP game, and love the fact DAOC has "classic" servers. Something SOE has been to dumb to impliment in EQ (a pre-Luclin EQ would be great for most Vanguard fans!).
I've played just about every major MMO out there, as I'm sure most others that are posting here have too... and all I have to say is, if PVP is so important why do the PVE servers on WOW, EQ, EQ2, SWG, and just about every other top ranking (non full pvp) mmo out there outnumber the PVP servers 10 to 1? Because the majority of the gamers don't play PVP. If they did, the PVP servers would be over crowded... which they aren't... forcing more PVP servers to be created, which simply isn't happening. I'm not saying PVP isn't popular or fun for some, but PVPers certainly aren't what makes up the majority of the player base for these types of MMO's. Valant6, your comment about saily gamers and hardcore fanatics making up the majority of the overall mmo community may be true, but as a 6 year EQ1 vet, I can tell you that doesn't mean they are all PVP... most aren't.
there are all sorts of different play styles, why should every game stick to one style of play? there are pvp games out there for pvp'ers, and there are pve games out there for pve'ers.
this is a pve game that will have some pvp, i don't believe it will be a casual players game....but there are plenty of games out there that are for casual players.
just because you feel a certain type of player is a "minority" doesn't mean there shouldn't be a game for them. if vanguard isn't the type of game you think you will like, don't play it...it is as simple as that.
I think it's good business for a game to pick an audience and stick with them. Trying to please everyone is simply impossible. The very thing that will make the game an absolute keeper for one crowd, will ruin the experience for another, so it's best for companies to just pick a side, and make the best game they possibly can for THAT audience, which I think is what Sigil is doing with Vanguard.
What really has me excited about this game, is the developers attitudes. They've said "this is our game, like it or not, this is it," and they say they would be happy with 100k subscribers. They won't change their design to bring in more people.
Now assuming they stick by everything they say, I'm really excited.
BY GOD THIS GAME IS GONNA KICK SERIOUS ASS! MY SORCEROR OR WHATEVER THE CLASS WILL BE NAMED CAN COUNTERSPELL AND STUFF!!! Know what would be really cool, if a high level mage instead of him having regular terrain based housing could open a portal to his own private sanctuary.
Money corrupts. That goes without saying. Once upon a time, people were driven by their inner need to create something that was more than just sufficient, but downright outstanding. I really think that attitude has been lost among the gaming industry. Now it seems the only concern is milking people's bank accounts for all they're worth. Hopefully the boys and girls at Sigil never truly fall into that web. Designing a game used to be an art. For now I trust they'll remain artists rather than salespeople. The future only knows what time soon will tell.
Money corrupts. That goes without saying. Once upon a time, people were driven by their inner need to create something that was more than just sufficient, but downright outstanding. I really think that attitude has been lost among the gaming industry. Now it seems the only concern is milking people's bank accounts for all they're worth. Hopefully the boys and girls at Sigil never truly fall into that web. Designing a game used to be an art. For now I trust they'll remain artists rather than salespeople. The future only knows what time soon will tell.
Then vanguard is safe, brad has enough money to retire and yet he decided to do a game, the game that he wanted to play... Of course, if he leaves the company that may change, but for now, he has showed a great care for the community, and a huge interest in knowing the players perspective(in fact as far as i know he is the second highest tank in the beta playing with a normal client)
Originally posted by Jodokai Actually that's his lawyer, not him
Arakorr(brad's warrior) is the second highest tank in the beta, Oloh(their lawyer) is the highest one and the highest character, at least was that way when they last talked about that.
Originally posted by Jorev I hate raiding. Anything that forces grouping is lame. I am a soloer by nature, but found myself grouping more in WoW than any other MMOG I have played. How do you explain that? It's because WoW did not force grouping, as it is the most solo friendly game around. I grouped because I wanted to, not because I had to. Soloers will reject forced grouping every time. Unfortunately, Vanguard seems to be mandating group/raid playstyle above soloing so it will not be solo friendly. Vanguard is also making crafters dependent on groups in order to make the better crafted items. More lame forced grouping. I do think PvP can add a positive element to a MMOG if it is done right and is a much better alternative for so called "end game" content than repetitive raiding. WoW PvP is a joke as it does not contain gain or loss. It's just a zergfest. True PvP needs item looting of some kind which provides motivation for gain and caution for loss, but elements need to be in place to prevent ganking.
Forced grouping? No but you wont get the best rewards from soloing. VG is a group baised game if you want the best rewards you will need to group, thats not say you can get to the max level solo but you would be pretty gimped in gear that someone of the same class they grouped/raided to the same level, it would also take you alot longer. Same goes for crafters if you want to make the best stuff you will need the help of adventures much in the same way adventures will need crafters to get the best stuff.
A MMOG can be solo friendly and group friendly and raid friendly if it provides equal content for all playstyle choices. Old school EQ1 accomplished this until Planes of Power expansion, when it started focusing on raid content only and with each expansion afterwards made the game less solo and small group friendly.
EQ1 was not solo or small group friendly in regards to items though. Soloers and small groups understand the limitations to more difficult content, but need to be able to trade for rewards that drop from those encounters in order to not feel like second class citizens, and feel forced to play a certain way. If all items in a MMOG are tradeable, as they logically should be, then no type of player would be excluded.
Crafting should always be soloable as it is in it's inherent nature. Old school EQ1 prior to Planes of Power proved that you can have a difficult and challenging crafting system that is soloable and yet retain a thriving market for the best created items because of the scarcity of high skilled crafters and the rarity of the best produced items. It is flawed thinking to suggest that crafting needs to be group dependent in order to achieve those goals.
I have no problem with Vanguard designing a game that is geared for raid oriented players. They are being honest about that which is a positive thing in this deceptive and sometimes dishonest industry.
The OP's premise does invite differing opinions. That is in part what this site is about.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Comments
Would deffinantly agreee with you there, this game will be the ultimate. Would prefer a PvP SERVER, just one is all i ask =p. They will make it eventually, despite what everyone says. But would like ot have one on launch.
That being said. L33333333333T SAUCE!!!!!!!
I find it gratifying that some dev's somewhere finnally thought "Hey, we should add defensive specials in combat!" This alone has raised my opion of SoH from, "meh" to "hmm.."
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
there is alot of truth in your post but i have to disagree with the majority of players don't like to raid. you could say a majority of casual players don't like to raid i would agree with that but the vanguard fanbase is generally not going to be casual gamers and they are going to want to raid.
also just because they totally screwed up pvp balance in eq doesn't mean vanguard will, i still had alot of fun on a pvp server even though i got my butt kicked alot.
im not entirely sure how much raiding vanguard will have at release but if you don't like to raid or you don't have the time it might be best to stick to a game like wow where it is balanced more for the casual player and you don't have to raid if you don't want to and still compete.
but i honestly think as long as you can have good enough hp and ac to group and take out the the most powerful mobs designed for groups that there shouldn't be a problem, just as long as there is enough content IMO
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
i have to say content is a catch to any game like the FF series and the best game ever FF7 yah its not a mmorpg but its the rpg that started it all. the content was so great it felt awesome pvp is only as good as the content of a game like what are u fighting for just cuz or is there a bigger reason. if ur nations is being over run that makes u want to pvp because you have a reason to. content u need in any mmorpg for players to stay or it just gets boring over time kill this kill that gg. so check out RF online go to the forums i have awesome pics and vids @_@
PVP is great in a game designed for PVP.
PVE is great in a game designed for PVE.
How do you design a game with equal consideration for PVP and PVE? Where some classes by design and PVE necessity are not overly useful in PVP combat (warrior taunt abilities for example). Also, where game evolution increases mob difficulty (more hp, more resistances, bigger damage) and therefore ups the damage output of players, which then makes dps classes too powerful against other classes in PVP.
If you are gonna have both in the game, then you are asking for trouble. In WoW PVP has caused nerfs to so many useful features for the PVE game, and PVE has likewise caused as many problems for PVP, such as high resistances and mages. Why would anyone want PVP that by the nature of the game is always going to be undermined by PVE balance concerns?
Wouldn't it be better to have your PVP and PVE seperate? Either in different games, or as one poster on the Vanguard forums suggested, seperate spheres of gameplay in the same game. (an idea that i found wonderful). As most of you probably know, the game has different spheres of gameplay; adventuring, crafting and diplomacy.
This poster (forgotten his name) suggested that a 4th sphere (PVP) be added. Meaning that you actual level up PVP abilities seperately from PVE, and have different skills available in the different spheres, no crossover stuff. So resistances that you so desperately need against a PVE Fire boss for example, have no effect in your PVP game, where perhaps PVP resistances and defences must be learned or gained only from the PVP sphere. This would also allow for better balance between classes as well. Wonderful idea, if perhaps a little difficult to implement.
I hate raiding. Anything that forces grouping is lame.
I am a soloer by nature, but found myself grouping more in WoW than any other MMOG I have played. How do you explain that? It's because WoW did not force grouping, as it is the most solo friendly game around. I grouped because I wanted to, not because I had to. Soloers will reject forced grouping every time. Unfortunately, Vanguard seems to be mandating group/raid playstyle above soloing so it will not be solo friendly.
Vanguard is also making crafters dependent on groups in order to make the better crafted items. More lame forced grouping.
I do think PvP can add a positive element to a MMOG if it is done right and is a much better alternative for so called "end game" content than repetitive raiding. WoW PvP is a joke as it does not contain gain or loss. It's just a zergfest. True PvP needs item looting of some kind which provides motivation for gain and caution for loss, but elements need to be in place to prevent ganking.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
WoW is an easy game, easy to get into and the like, hence why its solo friendly. The only good thing about it is the good PvP of it.
Grouping/raiding is what MMOG's are all about. Soloing/multiplayer type computer games have been around for decades, but not Massivly
Vanguard is apparantly a hard game, very challenging. If it has too much solo content i can see alot of people quitting the MMOG genre.
Hello all, first post in a long while. Seems this site still hates
Firefox....but that's not the point.
To everyone complaining about lack of PvP content, or how the game wont
pull cusomers from other games without focusing on PvP, fans of PvE have
been starving for a new PvE-centric game. While I agree PvP has it's
place, many of us prefer the idea of adventuring, exploring, and
treasur-hunting to "pwning" other players in a fight. THESE are the
people that will be pulled from other games, as there is little else
currently on the market for us that's actually done well, while the
diehard PvP'ers will remain happy with what they've got. See how
everyone wins when every game is not geared toward the same audience?
And yes, there is a large PvE audience. Many are not quite as vocal on
the message boards and such, but we're out there. Does that mean I
dislike PvP? Absolutely not. I enjoyed WoW's PvP system quite a bit, but
PvE being my main attraction to an MMORPG, and WoW lacking in that
department, I eventually split paths with that game.
To those complaining about raiding and forced grouping. You may not like
to raid, but no one is ever forced to. Many people like to solo, myself
included, but to make it possible throughout your entire career in a
game would compromise the challenge Sigil is trying to give this game.
Remember, their focus is on presenting a challenge, and promoting a
healthy community. Forging friendships and alliances through combat, and
learning whom you can entrust your safety to. The idea of being the
"lone wolf" while appealing, doesnt work well in an MMORPG seeing as how
unlike those books and movies, the story isnt about just one person, but
everyone. Else you end up with PvE like that of WoW where you can max
out in a matter of weeks without ever so much as speaking to another
player, which, as far as my personal opinion goes anyway, defeats the
purpose of the M in MMORPG....um, the 2nd M I mean. Back to raiding, I
agree that it really is the same as grouping but on a larger scale. A
raid, after all, really is just a group with more people in it. I see
little difference between getting 5 people together to fight a creature
1 cant handle, and getting 20 people together to fight a creature 5 cant
handle. Some may feel as though their role diminishes in a group of 20
rather than a group of 5, but its all in your personal perspective of
things. While one person may view themselves as a face in the crowd,
another's self perception may be that of a vital part of a greater
whole. Again, raiding has never, in my experiences, been something that
was necessity, only an added luxury and "end game" entertainment.
I guess I've said all that I wanted to (and then some). Just keep in
mind that just because a game is focused on an audience that you're not
a part of, doesnt make it a bad game. If it's not for you, it's not for
you. It'll definately be for someone. I remain optimistic and cant wait
to find out if Sigil does what they say they can.
Personally, I enjoy grouping and raiding, there are frustrating times to be had when trying to put the two together, but when it happens, it's exciting! I also enjoy soloing and exploring by myself, and never really had any major concern with balancing the two. I would like to be rewarded tho for exploring and finding hidden treasures or bosses killed to get loot by soloing randomly. But I believe also the best stuff will be found in epic areas where numbers will count, ala raiding/grouping. It will be interesting to see how Sigil will handle epic loot drops, will they be soulbound on pick up or equiped, like WoW. Because if they aren't then the soloer will have access to those high-end items through purchase or trades, auctions, etc. Getting to the max lvl and getting highest end stuff, should only be one of the players goals. Believe me I love loot content, but I also like the content where it's a quest to be solved and rewarded in a form of a new spell/ability/talent/etc. Or a story arc that is to be played out with other players. Giving the players plenty of opportunities to diverse themselves by having original experience in the game, which can't be compared by many others. This is the major challenge of any MMORPG. And for your $15per month it should be met! Of course this is my opinion.
Love soloing, could take or leave PvP. Played Wow characters to 52, 30, 28, and a slew of <20 characters, never participated in any more PvP then running across some enemies in the wild and attacking (i.e. no battlegrounds) or defending a city from attackers. most of my friends didn't PvP.
However, lost in all this discussion is what, IMO is the thing most other Mmos do wrong.
Endgame content. PvP, PvE, whatever, when you hit endgame and the only thing to do is collect loot...
I haven't played a ton of MMOs, but this is why WoW lost me and why other games will as well. Hopefully someone does it right soon..
Edit: and as far as the 'novel' idea of defensive moves...WoW had them for warriors...this system sounds a bit more strategic, but shield block essential (for improved revenge)
there are all sorts of different play styles, why should every game stick to one style of play? there are pvp games out there for pvp'ers, and there are pve games out there for pve'ers.
this is a pve game that will have some pvp, i don't believe it will be a casual players game....but there are plenty of games out there that are for casual players.
just because you feel a certain type of player is a "minority" doesn't mean there shouldn't be a game for them. if vanguard isn't the type of game you think you will like, don't play it...it is as simple as that.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I think it's good business for a game to pick an audience and stick with
them. Trying to please everyone is simply impossible. The very thing
that will make the game an absolute keeper for one crowd, will ruin the
experience for another, so it's best for companies to just pick a side,
and make the best game they possibly can for THAT audience, which I
think is what Sigil is doing with Vanguard.
What really has me excited about this game, is the developers attitudes. They've said "this is our game, like it or not, this is it," and they say they would be happy with 100k subscribers. They won't change their design to bring in more people.
Now assuming they stick by everything they say, I'm really excited.
Money corrupts. That goes without saying. Once upon a time, people were
driven by their inner need to create something that was more than just
sufficient, but downright outstanding. I really think that attitude has
been lost among the gaming industry. Now it seems the only concern is
milking people's bank accounts for all they're worth. Hopefully the boys
and girls at Sigil never truly fall into that web. Designing a game used
to be an art. For now I trust they'll remain artists rather than
salespeople. The future only knows what time soon will tell.
Then vanguard is safe, brad has enough money to retire and yet he decided to do a game, the game that he wanted to play... Of course, if he leaves the company that may change, but for now, he has showed a great care for the community, and a huge interest in knowing the players perspective(in fact as far as i know he is the second highest tank in the beta playing with a normal client)
How do you know that
.
Great post man!
Arakorr(brad's warrior) is the second highest tank in the beta, Oloh(their lawyer) is the highest one and the highest character, at least was that way when they last talked about that.
Edit:
Link to Oloh's post about brad's character
A MMOG can be solo friendly and group friendly and raid friendly if it provides equal content for all playstyle choices. Old school EQ1 accomplished this until Planes of Power expansion, when it started focusing on raid content only and with each expansion afterwards made the game less solo and small group friendly.
EQ1 was not solo or small group friendly in regards to items though. Soloers and small groups understand the limitations to more difficult content, but need to be able to trade for rewards that drop from those encounters in order to not feel like second class citizens, and feel forced to play a certain way. If all items in a MMOG are tradeable, as they logically should be, then no type of player would be excluded.
Crafting should always be soloable as it is in it's inherent nature. Old school EQ1 prior to Planes of Power proved that you can have a difficult and challenging crafting system that is soloable and yet retain a thriving market for the best created items because of the scarcity of high skilled crafters and the rarity of the best produced items. It is flawed thinking to suggest that crafting needs to be group dependent in order to achieve those goals.
I have no problem with Vanguard designing a game that is geared for raid oriented players. They are being honest about that which is a positive thing in this deceptive and sometimes dishonest industry.
The OP's premise does invite differing opinions. That is in part what this site is about.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh