Finwe have you already forgotten that the whole excuse for putting I.D. in classrooms is that it's not Christianity or any other religion but is instead a scientific theory.
You aren't even trying to pretend that it's a scientific theory. You're just pulling religious mythological explanations directly out of Christianity. If you're going to play the game of the intelligent design advocates then you have to at least pretend that it's a scientific theory unrelated to any religion.
Otherwise you're just proving the point of everyone on this thread who said that it's not science, it's religion and it shouldn't be taught in schools.
Originally posted by methane47 ...... <sigh> the only thing I.D. Claims is observation... their scientists observed that life is too complex to have randomly evolved from Non-organic substances...
This is my favorite quote from ID supporters. So if you can't explain something, you throw up your arms and proclaim that it must be God.
Lets get something straight, ID has little (to nothing) to do with broadening eduction. Rather, it's a method used by the religious right to inject their beliefs into our public class rooms.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by methane47 ...... <sigh> the only thing I.D. Claims is observation... their scientists observed that life is too complex to have randomly evolved from Non-organic substances...
This is my favorite quote from ID supporters. So if you can't explain something, you throw up your arms and proclaim that it must be God.
Lets get something straight, ID has little (to nothing) to do with broadening eduction. Rather, it's a method used by the religious right to inject their beliefs into our public class rooms.
Of course the same could be said about the non-religious and God-haters in respect to evolution theory, which does have problems, especially in the first few million years. It's speculation and frankly unfair to claim someone has an agenda simply because you don't agree with them. it's using the same tactics that many "non-right wingers" claim the right uses.
I happen to study both sides and think that ID has an edge, not because we have the universal "God" problem solver, but because the way evolution describes many things as working, doesn't play out (for example why would creatures who are asexual develop sexes? What sort of advantage is that?).
Though I'm not 100% convinced in ID, I think the majority of ID scientists are as interested in the truth as evolutionary scientists
And let's not forget that this will likely be handled as a "there are two major theories ..." In other words, it won't be taught as a determined fact, on either side, but as the two leading theories. What's wrong with that? If evolution theory si soo much better than ID (as some would claim) kids should have no problems figuring out one is crap, right?
Originally posted by methane47 ...... <sigh> the only thing I.D. Claims is observation... their scientists observed that life is too complex to have randomly evolved from Non-organic substances...
This is my favorite quote from ID supporters. So if you can't explain something, you throw up your arms and proclaim that it must be God.
Lets get something straight, ID has little (to nothing) to do with broadening eduction. Rather, it's a method used by the religious right to inject their beliefs into our public class rooms.
Of course the same could be said about the non-religious and God-haters in respect to evolution theory, which does have problems, especially in the first few million years. It's speculation and frankly unfair to claim someone has an agenda simply because you don't agree with them. it's using the same tactics that many "non-right wingers" claim the right uses.
I happen to study both sides and think that ID has an edge, not because we have the universal "God" problem solver, but because the way evolution describes many things as working, doesn't play out (for example why would creatures who are asexual develop sexes? What sort of advantage is that?).
Though I'm not 100% convinced in ID, I think the majority of ID scientists are as interested in the truth as evolutionary scientists
And let's not forget that this will likely be handled as a "there are two major theories ..." In other words, it won't be taught as a determined fact, on either side, but as the two leading theories. What's wrong with that? If evolution theory si soo much better than ID (as some would claim) kids should have no problems figuring out one is crap, right?
<edited for clarity>
Please name me one test you can do to begin to substantiate what you have posted.
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Dunno, it just looks like me to be a fancy way of saying we don't really know anything.
On the other hand, if everything has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is some intelligent being creating it....who created the intelligent being? How can it come from nothing?
Here's my problem with this whole thing. They say it's meant to introduce the idea that there are other explanations as to why we're here and that evolution is full of holes and we need to introduce these other ideas to kids.
Well, what would happen if they started telling kids that there are some theories that we were genetically manipulated by aliens. Yeah, you know E.T. I wonder if the intelligent design backers would be willing to let that theory into their schools. I have a feeling that's not exactly what they're wanting. And to try to deceive people by using this scam shows their true colors.
This is a way to get religion into the classroom. Religion is a belief system. Not a scientific system. And when I was taking Biology in High School we called it science class. There's nothing wrong with belief systems. But when you start mixing stuff like that in with government (and public schools are government sponsored) you get really bad things, like the start of a theocracy. And I don't want the U.S. to turn into the likes of Saudi Arabia except with Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell at the helm. I'd rather get fondled for a year by Tinkywinky rather than live under those whackos rules.
There is nothing in our countries doctrines that specifically calls for a seperation of church and state. But that doesn't mean that it's not a smart thing to have. I think that the legislatures should put such an amendment up for vote in Congress. Then we will have it as law and certain parties can quit trying to highjack this country with their religious insecurities by trying to make everyone like themselves.
I don't see either as false or true, they are theories; Theories that aren't and probably never will be proven.
[quote]On the other hand, if everything has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is some intelligent being creating it....who created the intelligent being? How can it come from nothing?[/quote]
That's a mystery hidden far beyond our comprehension. I don't like getting into all this religious stuff, it just starts flame wars, just like politics and (sometimes) solely scientific topics. I respect all views and faiths, but I agree that I.D. is just as much a theory as Evolution, and to understand a mystery one must embrace both sides of it (Kudos to whoever can tell where I pulled that from :P)
I pretty much agree with daelnor on that we pretty much understand little to nothing about this.
Edit: And yeah, a theocracy leads to absolute power, which leads to absolute corruption, not a good system of government
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Please name me one test you can do to begin to substantiate what you have posted.
You first . Why is the burden of proof on me? Besides which, your request was entirely too vague. I'll make a similar one "Prove evolution theory." Have fun. Not to mention tests don't prove everything or anything. Show me a scientific test to prove the existance of love or justice. You can't? Well by your logic they don't exist.
Too often the problem is the confusing of facts and interpretation of facts. For example:
Facts: All living organisms have a similar structure on a cellular level. All mammals have similar bones structures.
Evolutionary interpretation: We have descended from a common ancestor and therefore share traits, while differing in others. The same way a father might have 8 kids, who all appear similarly but are still unique.
ID interpretation: We have one creator. One common designer who made us all unique yet had similar design. the same way all Ford trucks appear similar yet have some differences (number of doors, etc.)
Too often, when facts are discussed in this setting, the interpretation is included as part of the facts, where it doesn't really belong.
As to the question of who created the creator...it's not really relevant here. Where everything came from is a question evolutionary science doesn't even try to answer, because science can't answer it accept in vague theories.
Reavo, I see your point. The problem, is there is NO scientific evidence for the alien theory (to my knowledge at least). There is evidence for ID. And for every unanswered question in ID that evolution can answer, evolution has questions ID can answer.
EDIT: That is to say, I'll be glad to provide test results, just let me know what exactly you're interested in. Age of the earth? The fallacy of macro-evolution (evolving from one creature to another)? Etc.
Scientists claim the Universe was created from The Big Bang. Well just what created The Big Bang? Something had to set up the Big Bang. Yet Scientists avoid that explanation like the plague.
First of all, Intelligent Design is not Biblical Literalism. Unlike the earlier generations of creationist, proponents of Intelligent Design do not believe the Earth was created in 6 days, that the Earth is ten thousand years old, or that fossils were deposited by Noahs flood. Nor does I.D. flatly reject evolution: adherents freely admit that some evolutionary changes occurred since the creation of the Earth.
The movements main claim is that there are things in the world, most notably life, that cannot be accounted for by known natural causes and show features that, in any other context, we would attribute to Intelligence. Living organisms are too complex to be explained by any scientific or mindless process.
Two recent developments within the scientific world are casting doubts on Darwinism. The first is the molecular revolution in biology. Molecular biologists in the 1950's discovered that there is a staggering and unsuspected degree of complexity within the cells that make up life. This complexity lies beyond the means of Darwinism to explain. Secondly, scientists explain that new mathematical findings casts doubt on the power of natural selection. Selection may a play in a role, but it cannot accomplish what bioligist suppose it can.
For the evolutionists... Name me one test that says without a doubt that we evolved from rocks...
When science is able to explain how exactly natural selection came into play and decided that rocks need to evolve... then i will eat my toe ....... Until then..... i will keep an open mind toward these things...
I just hope that you guys can be open minded about the beginnings of life also... Just because you were taught in science class that we came from primordial soup doesn't mean it was true... please do yourself a service and research the many explanations ..... and be willing for some of those explanations to fail.
No i do not support the theory of evolution... And i also do not support ID but i find it sad that people will shoot things down just because of what they were taught in primary school...
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 For the evolutionists... Name me one test that says without a doubt that we evolved from rocks... When science is able to explain how exactly natural selection came into play and decided that rocks need to evolve... then i will eat my toe ....... Until then..... i will keep an open mind toward these things... I just hope that you guys can be open minded about the beginnings of life also... Just because you were taught in science class that we came from primordial soup doesn't mean it was true... please do yourself a service and research the many explanations ..... and be willing for some of those explanations to fail. No i do not support the theory of evolution... And i also do not support ID but i find it sad that people will shoot things down just because of what they were taught in primary school...
Quoted for truth...just a few things to consider (for both the ID and Evolution sides). 500 years ago...we thought the earth was flat. We also tried to kill people for saying that the sun was the center of the galaxy and not the earth. Heck, even as little as 150 years ago we used leeches to "bleed out' diseases. Humans are very very good at thinking they have all the answers, despite the fact they continually prove themselves wrong.
Food for thought, anyways.
<---that was for my 4 year old, he thought they were cool and wanted me to use them.
Originally posted by Bissrok But remember people, evolution's just a theory. Like that theory that says that the earth revolves around the sun. Oh wait, the bible's against that idea, too. If anything creationism deserves to be in the science text books because of all of the facts supporting it. No wait.... there's no shred of evidence that supports anything about it. But... but I ain't come from no monkey. I like my 'big invisible guy in the sky' theory -no not theory, sorry. option. it's an option. you have the right to choose either of the ideas (just so long as you pick creationism)
This is something I read the other day but I think it applies here.
"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. "
Originally posted by Bissrok But remember people, evolution's just a theory. Like that theory that says that the earth revolves around the sun. Oh wait, the bible's against that idea, too. If anything creationism deserves to be in the science text books because of all of the facts supporting it. No wait.... there's no shred of evidence that supports anything about it. But... but I ain't come from no monkey. I like my 'big invisible guy in the sky' theory -no not theory, sorry. option. it's an option. you have the right to choose either of the ideas (just so long as you pick creationism)
This is something I read the other day but I think it applies here.
"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. "
Which reminds me of something. Evolutionists always attack creation science with stuff like that quote, i.e. no scientific evidence, just defaming, slander and remarks thathave nothing to do with science, and sound more like personal attacks. "He hasn't been in a lab in years!" "His test results aren't accurate" (without providing proof why) "He's not a good scientist" (this despite the many PhD holders working in the field) "Your only agenda is to get religion taught in schools" Ok, disprove me beyond a shadow of a doubt and make me go away. there's a reason this debate is still going on--it's not as one-sided as evolutionists claim. if it were, nobody would take it seriously besides a small number of the scientific community.
The other thing they do is claim all the evidence as theirs just because they have a neat idea about why it might be true (see Bissrok's comment for what I mean).
As I said before, evidence can be used by anybody, don't confuse interpretation with facts, because they aren't the same.
Oh and Bissrok, I like the last part, "you have the right to choose either of the ideas (just so long as you pick creationism)"....says the guy who is angry about ID being taught as an option.
Perhaps it's the fact that I couldn't possibly care less where I came from that I find the arguing over the teaching of topics like this meaningless, or that I can't see any possible closure to the case in any span of time. Religious conclusions would, based on past experiences, be in the form of a proclaimed messiah trying to tell us that life had holy origin and are constantly debunked by scientific 'reason'. Scientific conclusions can only extend to the earliest recordable signs of life, past which we can only scientifically -guess- what came before or if, in fact, nothing had. These of course are generally deemed blasphemous by the devouts. Even were one to hold some tone of truth, getting both sides to agree is all but impossible. Call me nihilistic, but when all is said and done I see us going on an endless, solutionless quest to find what came before, and before that, and before that, with no way of proving that this or that point - is point A. Just choose which story helps you best understand life, and allow others to do the same.
I can't belive all you people decide to argue about such a divide topic such as this.
We all hold some deep beliefs in live, and sometimes they are incongreuent w/ what other people think. The fact of the matter is we are here, and if it was god or evolution, it does not really matter unless you are in church or scienc class. Comon people, why fight over how we got here when to understand such a thing is probally beyond the scope of learing and experince that all us freaking gamers get. If we really knew what life was about, do you think we would be punching buttons mindlessly to get flashy lights and bonus xp? In essence we are wasting away our precious life that we could be using to connect with the world in a more healthy and enlightened way. Do all you realize that we all have a finite time on this planet, and no matter what you do or say, you are going to die? Death is always over you left sholder, wating to take you in eternal embrace. Lets fight about the details some more and cause some more suffering. Just shut up... And let people belive what they will. They will do it anyway, and you are just going to get yourself angry trying to reconnect a philosophical divide that does not really exist. Creationism and Natural Evolution hold something dear in common, they both require faith really. Belive it or leave it... Just stop meaningless banter
Originally posted by methane47 For the evolutionists... Name me one test that says without a doubt that we evolved from rocks...When science is able to explain how exactly natural selection came into play and decided that rocks need to evolve... then i will eat my toe ....... Until then..... i will keep an open mind toward these things...I just hope that you guys can be open minded about the beginnings of life also... Just because you were taught in science class that we came from primordial soup doesn't mean it was true... please do yourself a service and research the many explanations ..... and be willing for some of those explanations to fail.No i do not support the theory of evolution... And i also do not support ID but i find it sad that people will shoot things down just because of what they were taught in primary school...
...Did you even go to school? Have you done any research at all on the subject? I'm not just talking about the "evolved from rocks" part, I can pretend that was just an exaggeration. I'm talking about the whole thing. If not, try it, you might find that an education comes in handy. God, a half education's worse than none. 'I heard somethin' 'bout people comin' from them there rocks. That just ain't smart. Them fancy liberals and their facts...".
The only real flaw I can find in natural selection is humans. We seem hell bent on going against nature. Survival of the fitest has gone out the window and it's down who can pop out kids the fastest. I'd say that's the biggest factor in support for ID.
Originally posted by Drachonis Comon people, why fight over how we got here when to understand such a thing is probally beyond the scope of learing and experince that all us freaking gamers get. If we really knew what life was about, do you think we would be punching buttons mindlessly to get flashy lights and bonus xp?
Maybe this is the problem. Is anyone else majoring in biology?
I can respect someone else's opinion. Just not when it's stupid. Or when you try to force children to believe it.
-On a side note: I really only have about 3 hours of classes and in between them I do enjoy flashy lights.
Real scientists laugh at intelligent design, that's all I need to know.
I'm a christian, and creationism is a joke. Bunch of idiots who want that stuff to be taught in school, should be ashamed. God might have rolled the dice, but that's all he/she did.
Originally posted by Bissrok ...Did you even go to school? Have you done any research at all on the subject? I'm not just talking about the "evolved from rocks" part, I can pretend that was just an exaggeration. I'm talking about the whole thing. If not, try it, you might find that an education comes in handy. God, a half education's worse than none. 'I heard somethin' 'bout people comin' from them there rocks. That just ain't smart. Them fancy liberals and their facts...". The only real flaw I can find in natural selection is humans. We seem hell bent on going against nature. Survival of the fitest has gone out the window and it's down who can pop out kids the fastest. I'd say that's the biggest factor in support for ID.
Hmmmm well in that post you wrote a lot... but you said nothing... Have you even seen my handle? it's Methane... it's a chemical if you didn't know.. Apparently you are the one who has not gone to school.... hmm ok wait you're 18?... so that means you're probably still in highschool?... so if you are then you're a prime example of what i was talking about... People who disbelieve everything else since they believe what they were taught in school...
Humans are one of the many many holes that naturaly selection has... Go ahead and do some research... No i dont mean ask your science teacher, read something.... and no sadly i wasn't exaggerating with my earlier question... theory of Evolution says that life evolved out of primordial ooze (which was liquid methane) and apparently lightning struck the methane and created protein..... and then protein.. EVOLVED into cells... ?? If that doesn't seem questionable to you... then i dont know what does....
So here's an experiment ... take a cup of liquid methand into your back yard and flow electricity through it... to turn it into protein... and then wait for it to grow... you might get a new little brother.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
The universe does not define life, we do. However, the universe doesn't define existance, it is existance- we define it. The universe can see no difference between things we consider living or nonliving. Therefore, it is completely acceptable and sensible for one to believe that life evolved (or came from) nonliving materials. However, the universe is a contradiction- it should have never been. Something came from nothing, as the universe has oh so kindly shown us with reality. There is why I am so utterly confused- Mr. Universe, can you please tell me how EVERYTHING comes from NOTHING?
...and then there is this whole "God" thing which may well be true- however, the question remains- where and how did God originate? Myself, I simply leave it at the universe, because two somethings coming from nothing makes utterly no sense to me- one something coming from nothing is a bit easier to handle .
Humans are one of the many many holes that naturaly selection has...
no it's not. you're talking out of your backside... I'll explain...
teory of Evolution says that life evolved out of primordial ooze (which was liquid methane) and apparently lightning struck the methane and created protein..... and then protein.. EVOLVED into cells... ?? If that doesn't seem questionable to you... then i dont know what does....
You see? You are clueless as to what evolution is. Notice that the people who are ignorant of evolution are the ones who don't accept it..hmm..i wonder why that is.
Ok, education time:
the theory of evolution is "a change in allele frequency over time" or simply "heritable change". What you are actually against (but haven't done enough research to know any better) is abiogenesis.
So here's an experiment ... take a cup of liquid methand into your back yard and flow electricity through it... to turn it into protein... and then wait for it to grow... you might get a new little brother.
Oh yea, and in your ridiculous example you're leaving out one little thing. BILLIONS OF YEARS.
Please name me one test you can do to begin to substantiate what you have posted.
You first . Why is the burden of proof on me? Besides which, your request was entirely too vague. I'll make a similar one "Prove evolution theory." Have fun. Not to mention tests don't prove everything or anything. Show me a scientific test to prove the existance of love or justice. You can't? Well by your logic they don't exist.
Too often the problem is the confusing of facts and interpretation of facts. For example:
Facts: All living organisms have a similar structure on a cellular level. All mammals have similar bones structures.
Evolutionary interpretation: We have descended from a common ancestor and therefore share traits, while differing in others. The same way a father might have 8 kids, who all appear similarly but are still unique.
ID interpretation: We have one creator. One common designer who made us all unique yet had similar design. the same way all Ford trucks appear similar yet have some differences (number of doors, etc.)
Too often, when facts are discussed in this setting, the interpretation is included as part of the facts, where it doesn't really belong.
As to the question of who created the creator...it's not really relevant here. Where everything came from is a question evolutionary science doesn't even try to answer, because science can't answer it accept in vague theories.
Reavo, I see your point. The problem, is there is NO scientific evidence for the alien theory (to my knowledge at least). There is evidence for ID. And for every unanswered question in ID that evolution can answer, evolution has questions ID can answer.
EDIT: That is to say, I'll be glad to provide test results, just let me know what exactly you're interested in. Age of the earth? The fallacy of macro-evolution (evolving from one creature to another)? Etc.
You misunderstand what Im asking.
Im not saying prove your entire theory. I agree with you 100% that its not possible at thie time to establish beyond doubt which of the many ideas about how we got here are correct.
You also seem to be assuming that I think ID is wrong. I dont. I accept it as another possible explanation like I accept that the Australian Aborignies Rainbow Serpent creation myth could be correct to.
So what Im saying to you is this.
If for example I put it to you that we did all evolve from a common anscestor, I could then say. "In order to test that theory I will do something like examine the fossil record". It is an action I could perform to begin to establish evidence of my position.
On the other hand if you say to me "well actually I think a divine inteligence created everything". Then I would say. "Ok what are you going to do to begin to establish evidence"
And you would say .............. ????????????
Thats my question.
Just name one thing you could do to begin to establsih that everything on this planet came from a higher inteligence.
Evolution can just study the fossil record for evidence because it does not sugges the existence of an extra terriestrial designer as part of its argument.
So the first thing you have to do if you wish to add to the current variety of theories about how life started on earth and became so divers is begin to establish the existence of your designer and then link it with physical evidence to naturually occuring phenomena on earth.
So Im not saying prove you designer exists, Im not saying prove the link.
Im saying IF for example you wanted to try and prove it.
How would you begin ?
Thats all....
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Comments
Finwe have you already forgotten that the whole excuse for putting I.D. in classrooms is that it's not Christianity or any other religion but is instead a scientific theory.
You aren't even trying to pretend that it's a scientific theory. You're just pulling religious mythological explanations directly out of Christianity. If you're going to play the game of the intelligent design advocates then you have to at least pretend that it's a scientific theory unrelated to any religion.
Otherwise you're just proving the point of everyone on this thread who said that it's not science, it's religion and it shouldn't be taught in schools.
anyone who can not see that we were planted here is blind.
they won't teach that though
This is my favorite quote from ID supporters. So if you can't explain something, you throw up your arms and proclaim that it must be God.
Lets get something straight, ID has little (to nothing) to do with broadening eduction. Rather, it's a method used by the religious right to inject their beliefs into our public class rooms.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
This is my favorite quote from ID supporters. So if you can't explain something, you throw up your arms and proclaim that it must be God.
Lets get something straight, ID has little (to nothing) to do with broadening eduction. Rather, it's a method used by the religious right to inject their beliefs into our public class rooms.
Of course the same could be said about the non-religious and God-haters in respect to evolution theory, which does have problems, especially in the first few million years. It's speculation and frankly unfair to claim someone has an agenda simply because you don't agree with them. it's using the same tactics that many "non-right wingers" claim the right uses.
I happen to study both sides and think that ID has an edge, not because we have the universal "God" problem solver, but because the way evolution describes many things as working, doesn't play out (for example why would creatures who are asexual develop sexes? What sort of advantage is that?).
Though I'm not 100% convinced in ID, I think the majority of ID scientists are as interested in the truth as evolutionary scientists
And let's not forget that this will likely be handled as a "there are two major theories ..." In other words, it won't be taught as a determined fact, on either side, but as the two leading theories. What's wrong with that? If evolution theory si soo much better than ID (as some would claim) kids should have no problems figuring out one is crap, right?
<edited for clarity>
This is my favorite quote from ID supporters. So if you can't explain something, you throw up your arms and proclaim that it must be God.
Lets get something straight, ID has little (to nothing) to do with broadening eduction. Rather, it's a method used by the religious right to inject their beliefs into our public class rooms.
Of course the same could be said about the non-religious and God-haters in respect to evolution theory, which does have problems, especially in the first few million years. It's speculation and frankly unfair to claim someone has an agenda simply because you don't agree with them. it's using the same tactics that many "non-right wingers" claim the right uses.
I happen to study both sides and think that ID has an edge, not because we have the universal "God" problem solver, but because the way evolution describes many things as working, doesn't play out (for example why would creatures who are asexual develop sexes? What sort of advantage is that?).
Though I'm not 100% convinced in ID, I think the majority of ID scientists are as interested in the truth as evolutionary scientists
And let's not forget that this will likely be handled as a "there are two major theories ..." In other words, it won't be taught as a determined fact, on either side, but as the two leading theories. What's wrong with that? If evolution theory si soo much better than ID (as some would claim) kids should have no problems figuring out one is crap, right?
<edited for clarity>
Please name me one test you can do to begin to substantiate what you have posted.
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Dunno, it just looks like me to be a fancy way of saying we don't really know anything.
On the other hand, if everything has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is some intelligent being creating it....who created the intelligent being? How can it come from nothing?
Penny for your thoughts.
Here's my problem with this whole thing. They say it's meant to introduce the idea that there are other explanations as to why we're here and that evolution is full of holes and we need to introduce these other ideas to kids.
Well, what would happen if they started telling kids that there are some theories that we were genetically manipulated by aliens. Yeah, you know E.T. I wonder if the intelligent design backers would be willing to let that theory into their schools. I have a feeling that's not exactly what they're wanting. And to try to deceive people by using this scam shows their true colors.
This is a way to get religion into the classroom. Religion is a belief system. Not a scientific system. And when I was taking Biology in High School we called it science class. There's nothing wrong with belief systems. But when you start mixing stuff like that in with government (and public schools are government sponsored) you get really bad things, like the start of a theocracy. And I don't want the U.S. to turn into the likes of Saudi Arabia except with Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell at the helm. I'd rather get fondled for a year by Tinkywinky rather than live under those whackos rules.
There is nothing in our countries doctrines that specifically calls for a seperation of church and state. But that doesn't mean that it's not a smart thing to have. I think that the legislatures should put such an amendment up for vote in Congress. Then we will have it as law and certain parties can quit trying to highjack this country with their religious insecurities by trying to make everyone like themselves.
I don't see either as false or true, they are theories; Theories that aren't and probably never will be proven.
[quote]On the other hand, if everything has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is some intelligent being creating it....who created the intelligent being? How can it come from nothing?[/quote]
That's a mystery hidden far beyond our comprehension. I don't like getting into all this religious stuff, it just starts flame wars, just like politics and (sometimes) solely scientific topics. I respect all views and faiths, but I agree that I.D. is just as much a theory as Evolution, and to understand a mystery one must embrace both sides of it (Kudos to whoever can tell where I pulled that from :P)
I pretty much agree with daelnor on that we pretty much understand little to nothing about this.
Edit: And yeah, a theocracy leads to absolute power, which leads to absolute corruption, not a good system of government
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
You first
Too often the problem is the confusing of facts and interpretation of facts. For example:
Facts: All living organisms have a similar structure on a cellular level. All mammals have similar bones structures.
Evolutionary interpretation: We have descended from a common ancestor and therefore share traits, while differing in others. The same way a father might have 8 kids, who all appear similarly but are still unique.
ID interpretation: We have one creator. One common designer who made us all unique yet had similar design. the same way all Ford trucks appear similar yet have some differences (number of doors, etc.)
Too often, when facts are discussed in this setting, the interpretation is included as part of the facts, where it doesn't really belong.
As to the question of who created the creator...it's not really relevant here. Where everything came from is a question evolutionary science doesn't even try to answer, because science can't answer it accept in vague theories.
Reavo, I see your point. The problem, is there is NO scientific evidence for the alien theory (to my knowledge at least). There is evidence for ID. And for every unanswered question in ID that evolution can answer, evolution has questions ID can answer.
EDIT: That is to say, I'll be glad to provide test results, just let me know what exactly you're interested in. Age of the earth? The fallacy of macro-evolution (evolving from one creature to another)? Etc.
Scientists claim the Universe was created from The Big Bang. Well just what created The Big Bang? Something had to set up the Big Bang. Yet Scientists avoid that explanation like the plague.
First of all, Intelligent Design is not Biblical Literalism. Unlike the earlier generations of creationist, proponents of Intelligent Design do not believe the Earth was created in 6 days, that the Earth is ten thousand years old, or that fossils were deposited by Noahs flood. Nor does I.D. flatly reject evolution: adherents freely admit that some evolutionary changes occurred since the creation of the Earth.
The movements main claim is that there are things in the world, most notably life, that cannot be accounted for by known natural causes and show features that, in any other context, we would attribute to Intelligence. Living organisms are too complex to be explained by any scientific or mindless process.
Two recent developments within the scientific world are casting doubts on Darwinism. The first is the molecular revolution in biology. Molecular biologists in the 1950's discovered that there is a staggering and unsuspected degree of complexity within the cells that make up life. This complexity lies beyond the means of Darwinism to explain. Secondly, scientists explain that new mathematical findings casts doubt on the power of natural selection. Selection may a play in a role, but it cannot accomplish what bioligist suppose it can.
For the evolutionists... Name me one test that says without a doubt that we evolved from rocks...
When science is able to explain how exactly natural selection came into play and decided that rocks need to evolve... then i will eat my toe .......
Until then..... i will keep an open mind toward these things...
I just hope that you guys can be open minded about the beginnings of life also... Just because you were taught in science class that we came from primordial soup doesn't mean it was true... please do yourself a service and research the many explanations ..... and be willing for some of those explanations to fail.
No i do not support the theory of evolution... And i also do not support ID but i find it sad that people will shoot things down just because of what they were taught in primary school...
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Quoted for truth...just a few things to consider (for both the ID and Evolution sides). 500 years ago...we thought the earth was flat. We also tried to kill people for saying that the sun was the center of the galaxy and not the earth. Heck, even as little as 150 years ago we used leeches to "bleed out' diseases. Humans are very very good at thinking they have all the answers, despite the fact they continually prove themselves wrong.
Food for thought, anyways.
This is something I read the other day but I think it applies here.
"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. "
This is something I read the other day but I think it applies here.
"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. "
Which reminds me of something. Evolutionists always attack creation science with stuff like that quote, i.e. no scientific evidence, just defaming, slander and remarks thathave nothing to do with science, and sound more like personal attacks. "He hasn't been in a lab in years!" "His test results aren't accurate" (without providing proof why) "He's not a good scientist" (this despite the many PhD holders working in the field) "Your only agenda is to get religion taught in schools" Ok, disprove me beyond a shadow of a doubt and make me go away. there's a reason this debate is still going on--it's not as one-sided as evolutionists claim. if it were, nobody would take it seriously besides a small number of the scientific community.
The other thing they do is claim all the evidence as theirs just because they have a neat idea about why it might be true (see Bissrok's comment for what I mean).
As I said before, evidence can be used by anybody, don't confuse interpretation with facts, because they aren't the same.
Oh and Bissrok, I like the last part, "you have the right to choose either of the ideas (just so long as you pick creationism)"....says the guy who is angry about ID being taught as an option.
*sniff, sniff* "What's that smell?"
"It's irony"
Perhaps it's the fact that I couldn't possibly care less where I came from that I find the arguing over the teaching of topics like this meaningless, or that I can't see any possible closure to the case in any span of time. Religious conclusions would, based on past experiences, be in the form of a proclaimed messiah trying to tell us that life had holy origin and are constantly debunked by scientific 'reason'. Scientific conclusions can only extend to the earliest recordable signs of life, past which we can only scientifically -guess- what came before or if, in fact, nothing had. These of course are generally deemed blasphemous by the devouts. Even were one to hold some tone of truth, getting both sides to agree is all but impossible.
Call me nihilistic, but when all is said and done I see us going on an endless, solutionless quest to find what came before, and before that, and before that, with no way of proving that this or that point - is point A. Just choose which story helps you best understand life, and allow others to do the same.
I can't belive all you people decide to argue about such a divide topic such as this.
We all hold some deep beliefs in live, and sometimes they are incongreuent w/ what other people think. The fact of the matter is we are here, and if it was god or evolution, it does not really matter unless you are in church or scienc class. Comon people, why fight over how we got here when to understand such a thing is probally beyond the scope of learing and experince that all us freaking gamers get. If we really knew what life was about, do you think we would be punching buttons mindlessly to get flashy lights and bonus xp? In essence we are wasting away our precious life that we could be using to connect with the world in a more healthy and enlightened way. Do all you realize that we all have a finite time on this planet, and no matter what you do or say, you are going to die? Death is always over you left sholder, wating to take you in eternal embrace. Lets fight about the details some more and cause some more suffering. Just shut up... And let people belive what they will. They will do it anyway, and you are just going to get yourself angry trying to reconnect a philosophical divide that does not really exist. Creationism and Natural Evolution hold something dear in common, they both require faith really. Belive it or leave it... Just stop meaningless banter
...Did you even go to school? Have you done any research at all on the subject? I'm not just talking about the "evolved from rocks" part, I can pretend that was just an exaggeration. I'm talking about the whole thing. If not, try it, you might find that an education comes in handy. God, a half education's worse than none. 'I heard somethin' 'bout people comin' from them there rocks. That just ain't smart. Them fancy liberals and their facts...".
The only real flaw I can find in natural selection is humans. We seem hell bent on going against nature. Survival of the fitest has gone out the window and it's down who can pop out kids the fastest. I'd say that's the biggest factor in support for ID.
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Maybe this is the problem. Is anyone else majoring in biology?
I can respect someone else's opinion. Just not when it's stupid. Or when you try to force children to believe it.
-On a side note: I really only have about 3 hours of classes and in between them I do enjoy flashy lights.
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Real scientists laugh at intelligent design, that's all I need to know.
I'm a christian, and creationism is a joke. Bunch of idiots who want that stuff to be taught in school, should be ashamed. God might have rolled the dice, but that's all he/she did.
Maybe I'm just some crazy moron, but isn't adaptation one of the first steps (or a part) of evolution? Mutations are caused by a stimuli, no?
Just to see where everyone's coming from..
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Hmmmm well in that post you wrote a lot... but you said nothing... Have you even seen my handle? it's Methane... it's a chemical if you didn't know.. Apparently you are the one who has not gone to school.... hmm ok wait you're 18?... so that means you're probably still in highschool?... so if you are then you're a prime example of what i was talking about... People who disbelieve everything else since they believe what they were taught in school...
Humans are one of the many many holes that naturaly selection has... Go ahead and do some research... No i dont mean ask your science teacher, read something....
and no sadly i wasn't exaggerating with my earlier question... theory of Evolution says that life evolved out of primordial ooze (which was liquid methane) and apparently lightning struck the methane and created protein..... and then protein.. EVOLVED into cells... ?? If that doesn't seem questionable to you... then i dont know what does....
So here's an experiment ... take a cup of liquid methand into your back yard and flow electricity through it... to turn it into protein... and then wait for it to grow... you might get a new little brother.
Editted for another link:
Here's a link
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA02/primordial_soup.html
clicky
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
The universe does not define life, we do. However, the universe doesn't define existance, it is existance- we define it. The universe can see no difference between things we consider living or nonliving. Therefore, it is completely acceptable and sensible for one to believe that life evolved (or came from) nonliving materials. However, the universe is a contradiction- it should have never been. Something came from nothing, as the universe has oh so kindly shown us with reality. There is why I am so utterly confused- Mr. Universe, can you please tell me how EVERYTHING comes from NOTHING?
...and then there is this whole "God" thing which may well be true- however, the question remains- where and how did God originate? Myself, I simply leave it at the universe, because two somethings coming from nothing makes utterly no sense to me- one something coming from nothing is a bit easier to handle
.
no it's not. you're talking out of your backside... I'll explain...
You see? You are clueless as to what evolution is. Notice that the people who are ignorant of evolution are the ones who don't accept it..hmm..i wonder why that is.
Ok, education time:
the theory of evolution is "a change in allele frequency over time" or simply "heritable change". What you are actually against (but haven't done enough research to know any better) is abiogenesis.
see here --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
Oh yea, and in your ridiculous example you're leaving out one little thing. BILLIONS OF YEARS.
Oops, so much for your "scientific" experiment.
==========================
You first
Too often the problem is the confusing of facts and interpretation of facts. For example:
Facts: All living organisms have a similar structure on a cellular level. All mammals have similar bones structures.
Evolutionary interpretation: We have descended from a common ancestor and therefore share traits, while differing in others. The same way a father might have 8 kids, who all appear similarly but are still unique.
ID interpretation: We have one creator. One common designer who made us all unique yet had similar design. the same way all Ford trucks appear similar yet have some differences (number of doors, etc.)
Too often, when facts are discussed in this setting, the interpretation is included as part of the facts, where it doesn't really belong.
As to the question of who created the creator...it's not really relevant here. Where everything came from is a question evolutionary science doesn't even try to answer, because science can't answer it accept in vague theories.
Reavo, I see your point. The problem, is there is NO scientific evidence for the alien theory (to my knowledge at least). There is evidence for ID. And for every unanswered question in ID that evolution can answer, evolution has questions ID can answer.
EDIT: That is to say, I'll be glad to provide test results, just let me know what exactly you're interested in. Age of the earth? The fallacy of macro-evolution (evolving from one creature to another)? Etc.
You misunderstand what Im asking.
Im not saying prove your entire theory. I agree with you 100% that its not possible at thie time to establish beyond doubt which of the many ideas about how we got here are correct.
You also seem to be assuming that I think ID is wrong. I dont. I accept it as another possible explanation like I accept that the Australian Aborignies Rainbow Serpent creation myth could be correct to.
So what Im saying to you is this.
If for example I put it to you that we did all evolve from a common anscestor, I could then say. "In order to test that theory I will do something like examine the fossil record". It is an action I could perform to begin to establish evidence of my position.
On the other hand if you say to me "well actually I think a divine inteligence created everything". Then I would say. "Ok what are you going to do to begin to establish evidence"
And you would say .............. ????????????
Thats my question.
Just name one thing you could do to begin to establsih that everything on this planet came from a higher inteligence.
Evolution can just study the fossil record for evidence because it does not sugges the existence of an extra terriestrial designer as part of its argument.
So the first thing you have to do if you wish to add to the current variety of theories about how life started on earth and became so divers is begin to establish the existence of your designer and then link it with physical evidence to naturually occuring phenomena on earth.
So Im not saying prove you designer exists, Im not saying prove the link.
Im saying IF for example you wanted to try and prove it.
How would you begin ?
Thats all....
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