Oh, and by the way, everyone here is argueing over two things that can never truely be proven without a time machine. Unless someone goes back in time and witnesses everything you can never prove any of this, and even then you could not prove that god made everything unless you saw him standing around doing it. Thing would probably just appear.
Now im not a bible expert but I don't think they ever said how long it took for god to make man or any creatures, what if they all evolved cause thats the way god wanted it done?
You just cant prove anything, so everyone here is just argueing for the sake of argueing. Its fun to read what you guys say but i just want you to know that no one will ever win, and if they are both two theories, ideas, dogmas, whatevers that cant be proven, then whats wrong with teaching them both in school. Children are required BY LAW in the United States to learn Evolution, so why not ID?
Originally posted by WindexofDoom Oh, and by the way, everyone here is argueing over two things that can never truely be proven without a time machine. Unless someone goes back in time and witnesses everything you can never prove any of this, and even then you could not prove that god made everything unless you saw him standing around doing it. Thing would probably just appear. Now im not a bible expert but I don't think they ever said how long it took for god to make man or any creatures, what if they all evolved cause thats the way god wanted it done? You just cant prove anything, so everyone here is just argueing for the sake of argueing. Its fun to read what you guys say but i just want you to know that no one will ever win, and if they are both two theories, ideas, dogmas, whatevers that cant be proven, then whats wrong with teaching them both in school. Children are required BY LAW in the United States to learn Evolution, so why not ID?
Well time travel is also theoratically possible so maybe one day we will find out.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is fun, thats why we do it. I mean lets face if your saying there is no point, why then would you want this can of worms opened in a school ?
Im FINE 100% with ID being taught in schools, so long as it is in the context of religion and not science.
There is a stampede away from logical thought, deductive reasoning, balance of probability and anything else that seeks to make understandable the mysterious by way of examination of evidence in this world at this time.
Lets not add to that problem by confusing children about what is a testable hypothosis and what is a flight of fancy. Thats all Im saying.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by WindexofDoom actually adaptation means that nothing physically changes.
Adaptation does to have something to do with physical changes, mexicans don't have dark red skin cause they eat alot of red hot chili. It's cause thier skin adapts to the high levels of ultra-violet rays beaming down on them.
Bears don't get really fat in the winter time because they like to eat berries cause of the taste of them, they eat that much to hibernate through the winter.
Asians, Africans, Caucasians, Albinos, all have their origins.
Africa has a desert about the size of the US, the sunlight is crazy harsh there. People that lived in harsh weather didn't become short and stumpy with barrel chests cause of evolution, it was adaptation.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
People that lived in harsh weather didn't become short and stumpy with barrel chests cause of evolution, it was adaptation.
So your saying that the harsh weather of ironforge is why only Dwarves and Gnomes come from there ?
Ah.... See.... not looking so smart now are we ?
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by Razorback Originally posted by Betrayal-X People that lived in harsh weather didn't become short and stumpy with barrel chests cause of evolution, it was adaptation. So your saying that the harsh weather of ironforge is why only Dwarves and Gnomes come from there ? Ah.... See.... not looking so smart now are we ?
You always got to shoot me down.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Originally posted by pirrg So which religion is the "correct" one? Have they figured that one out yet?
Yes actually in the second season of Southpark they revealed that it is the Mormons who are correct and everyone else is wrong.
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Greek mythology sounded like a fine thing to me too me... until i found out that the gods had a thing for biting their father's nuts off ...
Not a very fun way to become top god...
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Greek mythology sounded like a fine thing to me too me... until i found out that the gods had a thing for biting their father's nuts off ... Not a very fun way to become top god...
Don't forget that Zeus is the origin of catamites...
I mean geez...The greeks would of throned MJ as soon as he arrived.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Man I got to tell you when I posted something like this on another forum, people go freaking crazy, I state facts and information about genomes, archelogical evidence is based on interpretations and, plenty more stuff the zanca lines tons of stuff they just do a spin on their opinion and offer no information or data proving anything. Gah, I just about pulled my hair out posting on that forum. My conclusion post on MMORPG.com at least they listen...
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Originally posted by Betrayal-X Man I got to tell you when I posted something like this on another forum, people go freaking crazy, I state facts and information about genomes, archelogical evidence is based on interpretations and, plenty more stuff the zanca lines tons of stuff they just do a spin on their opinion and offer no information or data proving anything. Gah, I just about pulled my hair out posting on that forum. My conclusion post on MMORPG.com at least they listen...
I just miss Firemagic.... where are you FIRE!!!! usually he comes out and does that stuff... and the thread reduces to like ... me, aldaron and firemagic and one or two other posters ... but it's always good to have these convos they are always enlightening.. I just hope that people on boths sides take back information
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
At least you get enlightened, all I got on the other forum was; you are wrong, it's a conspiracy, they're lying, they want to force religion in schools, they want to force ideals on people, they are evil paranoid morons ready to make a killing and run off with the cash never looking back. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! All nonsense and not a drop of factual information too their posts, just random headache opinions with a glorifying rant! Ugh...
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Yeah I wonder where Firemagic is... this is his pet subject...
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by Sawtooth Take a culture of bacteria in a dish. Apply antibiotic. Observe under microscope as most bacteria die, but a few live. Those few are resistant to said antibiotic. Observe now as bacteria multiply, and eventually are as numerous as original culture. Apply same antibiotic. Observe as very few bacteria die, since most were reproduced from resistent bacteria. Evolution. I have done this in a laboratory.Whether or not some intelligent power set these mechanics in motion, the mechanics themselves are what we call evolution. Evolution I can prove. I can't prove God. Therefore, I leave the teaching of God to the Temples, Churches, Mosques, and any other religious venue the world sees fit. The teaching of science, however, I leave to scientists, who follow scientific methods.Further, I now demand recognition of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a legitimate Intelligent Design Theory. The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) created all that we know and are, and used His infinite powers to alter reality and thus cloud His existence from our senses. Pastafarrians will not be discriminated against.
Thats not evolution. You can prove diffrent variations like breeding dogs but you cant breed dogs into cats . Evolution is just another religion.
Darwin & evolution PROVED there was no god over 200-years ago & we're still arguing about it now? FFS it's obvious, it's been further proved by 200-years of research. I hope sometime in the future religion is banned & anyone believing it should be sent to prison to do hard labour.
Originally posted by Bennjim Darwin & evolution PROVED there was no god over 200-years ago & we're still arguing about it now? FFS it's obvious, it's been further proved by 200-years of research. I hope sometime in the future religion is banned & anyone believing it should be sent to prison to do hard labour. -B
You surely are of a superior intellect, wisdom, and education...
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
B.S. evolution is a proven fact. The fact fundie IDers don't understand that doesn't change the fact. And all the wishing and faith in the world will not substitute for what is factually correct.
The bottom line: IF YOU DON'T LIKE EVOLUTION THEN PROVE IT WRONG. AFTER YOU PROVE IT WRONG, SUGGEST A VALID ALTERNATIVE.
The fact that IDers use political pressure and lies to sneak their pseudoscience in a science cirriculum is patheitc.
A whole lot of assertions with no real evidence or even an example. Nice try.
And your assertion that evolution is a proven fact is hilarious. How can a proven fact have such huge problems? I'll even stay basic.
Your claim "Evolution is not a proven fact because is has huge problems." ...how ridiculous. Sure there's problems with the theory. There's problems with ALL scientific theory because science is not absolute. There's problems between Newtonian vs.quantum physics...that doesn't mean we throw out both theories in place of a GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS. It also doesn't mean we suggest teaching GODDIDIT alongside physics in physics class.
1) In order for evolution to be true, we need mutations that add genetic information
I see once again you chose to ignore defining what it is you mean by "information".
...and if evolution were true, we should have countless examples. Yet we have not even a single one. Not one! Yet it hinges on this hypothesis. EVERY observed mutations is a loss in information or a change in current information. They can be beneficial, but they still add nothing new. I'll quote:
Ok, I see you want to drill on this already-refuted point. So here you go.
* increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991) * increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003) * novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996) * novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)
Please, feel free to tear apart each one of these. Then, when you finish I suggest you read up on punctuated equilibria.
[snip the rest of your refuted claim]
After you've refuted these evidences, I'm sure you'll get around one day to PROVING YOUR GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS, right?
(by the way, in case you're wondering why I'm not taking your claims line by line and refuting each one individually, you need to realize your position. You are essentailly taking on mainstreme science. This knowledge is testable and has been sucessfully used in predictions. The burden of proof is on you to show how evolution is wrong, then suggest a better theory So far all you've provided is previously refuted claims from a Bible site.)
If evolution is so proven, then why doesn't it stand up to the basic scientific test of being observable and repeatable on this, the very foundation of how it's supposed to have happened?
It does, you're simply ignorant on the subject.
(hint: start here. After you've refuted each one, maybe you'll get around to telling us your GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS)
[quote] The evidence leans heavily in favor of things being created to allow variation within species--so animals can adapt--but not one shred of evidece supports any mutations creating new information. if you have it show it. I've mentioned this repeatedly with nothing as a response except 'lame argument, already been rebutted.' Then by all means, show me the rebuttal. It's one thing, show me the rebuttal. You can't, yet evolution theory needs this to be true or it's all hypothesis. Proven..pssh[/b][/quote]
You haven't proven this yet. You just rehashed the same refuted creationist arguments. What a waste of bandwidth.
Once again I see you took this opportunity to ignore previous questions (like define "information" in your claim) and once again forgot to give your GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS.
This is why no one who's half knowledgable about evolutionary biology takes your claims seriously. But please respond to this again with refuted claims and no explanation for what you suggest in place of evolution.
Everytime you do, it gives this board a chance to see how ID is clearly faith, not science and clearly has no place in a science classroom
[quote]Originally posted by Koddo [b]Well, i got to the 5th page and got tired of reading.. Personally i believe this whole thing is rediculous. Evolution is a scientific theory, where intellegent design is a religious theory [/quote]
Agreed, I do want to clarify one thing though...
Evolutions IS a scientific theory.
ID is NOT a scientific theory, it's a hypothesis at best
[quote]Originally posted by freethinker [b][quote]Originally posted by Koddo [b]Well, i got to the 5th page and got tired of reading.. Personally i believe this whole thing is rediculous. Evolution is a scientific theory, where intellegent design is a religious theory [/quote]
Agreed, I do want to clarify one thing though...
Evolutions IS a scientific theory.
ID is NOT a scientific theory, it's a hypothesis at best
[/b][/quote][/quote]
You are just another person picking at it's stereotypes from the outside, ID has be going through the intellectual process, just now in Kansas it has be recognized as a theory. There are processes in ID that you have to do in-order to make things correct. Even though, they had to change the definition of science from being limited too a naturalistic view on explaining phenomena.
It's not a hypothesis, they have gone through evidence and experiments that can suggest this information. The 223 genes which actually might be 40 genes, I myself haven't read through all the evidence and I'm still keeping an open mind to this, instead of closing minds to the alternative, like so many atheists I've met do.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Originally posted by Bennjim Darwin & evolution PROVED there was no god over 200-years ago & we're still arguing about it now? FFS it's obvious, it's been further proved by 200-years of research. I hope sometime in the future religion is banned & anyone believing it should be sent to prison to do hard labour. -B
You surely are of a superior intellect, wisdom, and education... Well Im like the second most prominent Aethist/Agnostic on these boards after Firemagic and even I am with Aldaron on this one. Saying you know for sure is just dumb no matter which side your on.
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You are just another person picking at it's stereotypes from the outside, ID has be going through the intellectual process, just now in Kansas it has be recognized as a theory.
No, actually what i said is 100% factual.
There are processes in ID that you have to do in-order to make things correct.
The process is called the SCIENTIFIC METHOD and ID fails at this miserably. ID is not falsifiable or testable, it's taken on faith (aka Goddidit).
Even though, they had to change the definition of science from being limited too a naturalistic view on explaining phenomena.
BINGO. Thank you for making my argument. Actually, what you probably meant is unnatural phenomena (which also includes thinks like ghosts, aliens, bigfoot and the nessie).
Since science already deals with natural phenomena
It's not a hypothesis, they have gone through evidence and experiments that can suggest this information.
And what scientific test is there for "god did it"? Please learn the difference between a scientific theory and a hypothesis.
Also, earlier, noticed I says ID was a hypothesis AT THE MOST. That's giving it an awful lot of credit IMO. Most people i know think it's just conjecture.
The 223 genes which actually might be 40 genes, I myself haven't read through all the evidence and I'm still keeping an open mind to this, instead of closing minds to the alternative, like so many atheists I've met do.
The whole "open/closed minded" argument is a disingenious attempt to try demonize atheists, agnostics and theists who accept the fact of evolution. It does not make one open minded to blindly believe Goddidit, just as it does not make one open minded to blindly believe The Invisible Pink Unicorn did it. Both have one thing in common...absolutley 0% evidence.
Evolution on the other had has mountains of evidence and a fossile record. Those who try to imply they are somehow on equal footing and deserving of the same consideration are lying or being misled themselves.
People who want to believe their god created everything is a-ok in my book. in fact, i have a big problem with some of my fellow atheists on this board who make comments like "religion should be banned" or "outlawed". I respect people's right to believe as they choose ... however, to force your religion or god belief on everyone under the guise of science is, IMO, wrong and pathetic.
I did my own research on the arguement of ID vs EV.
Evidence to consider on ID.
Fact: Every cell has an ultra-sophisticated molecular machine.
The existence in nature of irreducibly complex biological systems poses a challenge to Darwinian theory.
Fact: When you bleed, your blood forms a scab this scab is formed through an exquisitely coordinated mechanism. Hemoglobin.
Fact: In biochemistry text books, they explain the inner workings of the molecular machines within our cells but, stop short of explaining where and why those machines exist.
Scientist's will admit bewilderment at the origins of these molecular machines but, refuse to entertain the concept of it being designed.
Evidence to consider on Evolution.
Fact: Bits and pieces of irreducibly molecular machines may serve different purposes when dissected apart.
Fact: A small group of proteins from a bacterial flagellum can work independently. Although it's original design was to inject poisen it can still perform a different task without the rest of it's machine.
(Personally, a bee stinger can still inject poisen after it's been severed from the bee but, the bee dies off and so does the stinger)
Fact: In a 1998 article in the journal Cell, a group led by James Rothman, of the Sloan-Kettering Institute, described the remarkable simplicity and uniformity of cellular mechanisms
(A reference, if someone has an article on it please post or let me know)
Closing argument.
Darwin's case in point is that all things in natural selection was up to chance and, necessity, there was only a natural explaination to all evolutionary events. FACT.
In ordinary life the only explanation to these are chance, necessity, and design. Design being the most overly sufficent example.
But, how do we know that there was or wasn't an intelligent design in our world?
In special science's SETI, archeology and, forensics, in these sciences there are well developed techniques to identify intelligent design.
Intelligence design leaves behind a marking that is not repeatable by chance or, necessity. That's how it can be proven. FACT.
Originally posted by Betrayal-X I did my own research on the arguement of ID vs EV.Evidence to consider on ID.Fact: Every cell has an ultra-sophisticated molecular machine.
Not evidence of ID.
just because a cell is "ultra-sophisticted" does not in anyway prove that a god is making or made this happen. If you believe this is evidence for ID, your belief is based on an argument from ignorance, a popular fallacy among proponents of ID.
The existence in nature of irreducibly complex biological systems poses a challenge to Darwinian theory.
irreducible complexity is an argument from ignorance also (we don't know, therefore goddidit).
this is one of the oldest refuted creationist arguments. The guy who coined the argument (Michael Behe) didn't even provide a testable hypothesis. Please, please please do not bring up the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics either as that only applies to closed systems.
Sorry, this is not evidence for ID
Fact: When you bleed, your blood forms a scab this scab is formed through an exquisitely coordinated mechanism. Hemoglobin.
Argument from Ignorance, not evidence of ID
Fact: In biochemistry text books, they explain the inner workings of the molecular machines within our cells but, stop short of explaining where and why those machines exist.
Argument from Ignorance bridging on Appeal to Authority fallacy.... not proof of ID.
Scientist's will admit bewilderment at the origins of these molecular machines but, refuse to entertain the concept of it being designed.
And because scientists cannot explain "molecular machines" isn't evidence for ID. There are a lot of things scientists cannot explain. That's the nature of the world we live in. However, taking the extra step by saying it's created or Goddidit doesn't explain anytyhing....it's just an empty explanation not backed by any evidence. ID is a belief, it's faith.
Sorry, you've not provided any evidence for ID yet...
In ordinary life the only explanation to these are chance, necessity, and design. Design being the most overly sufficent example.
Interesting opinion.
But, how do we know that there was or wasn't an intelligent design in our world?
do we know absolutley? no. however, there's no evidence or reason to assume it.
In special science's SETI, archeology and, forensics, in these sciences there are well developed techniques to identify intelligent design.
Sorry, this isn't the case. Bring the evidence forward but you'll need to do better than argument from ignorance.
Intelligence design leaves behind a marking that is not repeatable by chance or, necessity. That's how it can be proven. FACT.
ID is faith and it's taken on faith. There is no evidence for Goddidit.
Comments
Oh, and by the way, everyone here is argueing over two things that can never truely be proven without a time machine. Unless someone goes back in time and witnesses everything you can never prove any of this, and even then you could not prove that god made everything unless you saw him standing around doing it. Thing would probably just appear.
Now im not a bible expert but I don't think they ever said how long it took for god to make man or any creatures, what if they all evolved cause thats the way god wanted it done?
You just cant prove anything, so everyone here is just argueing for the sake of argueing. Its fun to read what you guys say but i just want you to know that no one will ever win, and if they are both two theories, ideas, dogmas, whatevers that cant be proven, then whats wrong with teaching them both in school. Children are required BY LAW in the United States to learn Evolution, so why not ID?
Well time travel is also theoratically possible so maybe one day we will find out.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is fun, thats why we do it. I mean lets face if your saying there is no point, why then would you want this can of worms opened in a school ?
Im FINE 100% with ID being taught in schools, so long as it is in the context of religion and not science.
There is a stampede away from logical thought, deductive reasoning, balance of probability and anything else that seeks to make understandable the mysterious by way of examination of evidence in this world at this time.
Lets not add to that problem by confusing children about what is a testable hypothosis and what is a flight of fancy. Thats all Im saying.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Adaptation does to have something to do with physical changes, mexicans don't have dark red skin cause they eat alot of red hot chili. It's cause thier skin adapts to the high levels of ultra-violet rays beaming down on them.
Bears don't get really fat in the winter time because they like to eat berries cause of the taste of them, they eat that much to hibernate through the winter.
Asians, Africans, Caucasians, Albinos, all have their origins.
Africa has a desert about the size of the US, the sunlight is crazy harsh there. People that lived in harsh weather didn't become short and stumpy with barrel chests cause of evolution, it was adaptation.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
So your saying that the harsh weather of ironforge is why only Dwarves and Gnomes come from there ?
Ah.... See.... not looking so smart now are we ?
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
You always got to shoot me down.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
So which religion is the "correct" one? Have they figured that one out yet?
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Zeus sounds as believable as all the other religions out there.
Greek mythology sounded like a fine thing to me too me... until i found out that the gods had a thing for biting their father's nuts off ...
Not a very fun way to become top god...
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Don't forget that Zeus is the origin of catamites...
I mean geez...The greeks would of throned MJ as soon as he arrived.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
LOL now that's just wrong....
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Man I got to tell you when I posted something like this on another forum, people go freaking crazy, I state facts and information about genomes, archelogical evidence is based on interpretations and, plenty more stuff the zanca lines tons of stuff they just do a spin on their opinion and offer no information or data proving anything. Gah, I just about pulled my hair out posting on that forum. My conclusion post on MMORPG.com at least they listen...
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
I just miss Firemagic.... where are you FIRE!!!!
usually he comes out and does that stuff... and the thread reduces to like ... me, aldaron and firemagic and one or two other posters ...
but it's always good to have these convos they are always enlightening.. I just hope that people on boths sides take back information
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
At least you get enlightened, all I got on the other forum was; you are wrong, it's a conspiracy, they're lying, they want to force religion in schools, they want to force ideals on people, they are evil paranoid morons ready to make a killing and run off with the cash never looking back. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! All nonsense and not a drop of factual information too their posts, just random headache opinions with a glorifying rant! Ugh...
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Thats not evolution. You can prove diffrent variations like breeding dogs but you cant breed dogs into cats .
Evolution is just another religion.
Darwin & evolution PROVED there was no god over 200-years ago & we're still arguing about it now? FFS it's obvious, it's been further proved by 200-years of research. I hope sometime in the future religion is banned & anyone believing it should be sent to prison to do hard labour.
-B
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
[quote]Originally posted by Therooster
[b]
Your claim "Evolution is not a proven fact because is has huge problems." ...how ridiculous. Sure there's problems with the theory. There's problems with ALL scientific theory because science is not absolute. There's problems between Newtonian vs.quantum physics...that doesn't mean we throw out both theories in place of a GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS. It also doesn't mean we suggest teaching GODDIDIT alongside physics in physics class.
I see once again you chose to ignore defining what it is you mean by "information".
Ok, I see you want to drill on this already-refuted point. So here you go.
* increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
* increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
* novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
* novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)
Taken from http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html
Please, feel free to tear apart each one of these. Then, when you finish I suggest you read up on punctuated equilibria.
[snip the rest of your refuted claim]
After you've refuted these evidences, I'm sure you'll get around one day to PROVING YOUR GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS, right?
(by the way, in case you're wondering why I'm not taking your claims line by line and refuting each one individually, you need to realize your position. You are essentailly taking on mainstreme science. This knowledge is testable and has been sucessfully used in predictions. The burden of proof is on you to show how evolution is wrong, then suggest a better theory So far all you've provided is previously refuted claims from a Bible site.)
It does, you're simply ignorant on the subject.
(hint: start here. After you've refuted each one, maybe you'll get around to telling us your GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS)
[quote]
The evidence leans heavily in favor of things being created to allow variation within species--so animals can adapt--but not one shred of evidece supports any mutations creating new information. if you have it show it. I've mentioned this repeatedly with nothing as a response except 'lame argument, already been rebutted.' Then by all means, show me the rebuttal. It's one thing, show me the rebuttal. You can't, yet evolution theory needs this to be true or it's all hypothesis. Proven..pssh[/b][/quote]
You haven't proven this yet. You just rehashed the same refuted creationist arguments. What a waste of bandwidth.
Once again I see you took this opportunity to ignore previous questions (like define "information" in your claim) and once again forgot to give your GODDIDIT HYPOTHESIS.
This is why no one who's half knowledgable about evolutionary biology takes your claims seriously. But please respond to this again with refuted claims and no explanation for what you suggest in place of evolution.
Everytime you do, it gives this board a chance to see how ID is clearly faith, not science and clearly has no place in a science classroom
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[quote]Originally posted by Koddo
[b]Well, i got to the 5th page and got tired of reading..
Personally i believe this whole thing is rediculous. Evolution is a scientific theory, where intellegent design is a religious theory [/quote]
Agreed, I do want to clarify one thing though...
Evolutions IS a scientific theory.
ID is NOT a scientific theory, it's a hypothesis at best
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[quote]Originally posted by freethinker
[b][quote]Originally posted by Koddo
[b]Well, i got to the 5th page and got tired of reading..
Personally i believe this whole thing is rediculous. Evolution is a scientific theory, where intellegent design is a religious theory [/quote]
Agreed, I do want to clarify one thing though...
Evolutions IS a scientific theory.
ID is NOT a scientific theory, it's a hypothesis at best
[/b][/quote][/quote]
You are just another person picking at it's stereotypes from the outside, ID has be going through the intellectual process, just now in Kansas it has be recognized as a theory. There are processes in ID that you have to do in-order to make things correct. Even though, they had to change the definition of science from being limited too a naturalistic view on explaining phenomena.
It's not a hypothesis, they have gone through evidence and experiments that can suggest this information. The 223 genes which actually might be 40 genes, I myself haven't read through all the evidence and I'm still keeping an open mind to this, instead of closing minds to the alternative, like so many atheists I've met do.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Well Im like the second most prominent Aethist/Agnostic on these boards after Firemagic and even I am with Aldaron on this one. Saying you know for sure is just dumb no matter which side your on.
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
No, actually what i said is 100% factual.
The process is called the SCIENTIFIC METHOD and ID fails at this miserably. ID is not falsifiable or testable, it's taken on faith (aka Goddidit).
BINGO. Thank you for making my argument. Actually, what you probably meant is unnatural phenomena (which also includes thinks like ghosts, aliens, bigfoot and the nessie).
Since science already deals with natural phenomena
And what scientific test is there for "god did it"? Please learn the difference between a scientific theory and a hypothesis.
you may want to start here and scroll down to the science section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
Hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis
Also, earlier, noticed I says ID was a hypothesis AT THE MOST. That's giving it an awful lot of credit IMO. Most people i know think it's just conjecture.
The whole "open/closed minded" argument is a disingenious attempt to try demonize atheists, agnostics and theists who accept the fact of evolution.
It does not make one open minded to blindly believe Goddidit, just as it does not make one open minded to blindly believe The Invisible Pink Unicorn did it. Both have one thing in common...absolutley 0% evidence.
Evolution on the other had has mountains of evidence and a fossile record. Those who try to imply they are somehow on equal footing and deserving of the same consideration are lying or being misled themselves.
People who want to believe their god created everything is a-ok in my book. in fact, i have a big problem with some of my fellow atheists on this board who make comments like "religion should be banned" or "outlawed".
I respect people's right to believe as they choose ... however, to force your religion or god belief on everyone under the guise of science is, IMO, wrong and pathetic.
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I did my own research on the arguement of ID vs EV.
Evidence to consider on ID.
Fact: Every cell has an ultra-sophisticated molecular machine.
The existence in nature of irreducibly complex biological systems poses a challenge to Darwinian theory.
Fact: When you bleed, your blood forms a scab this scab is formed through an exquisitely coordinated mechanism. Hemoglobin.
Fact: In biochemistry text books, they explain the inner workings of the molecular machines within our cells but, stop short of explaining where and why those machines exist.
Scientist's will admit bewilderment at the origins of these molecular machines but, refuse to entertain the concept of it being designed.
Evidence to consider on Evolution.
Fact: Bits and pieces of irreducibly molecular machines may serve different purposes when dissected apart.
Fact: A small group of proteins from a bacterial flagellum can work independently. Although it's original design was to inject poisen it can still perform a different task without the rest of it's machine.
(Personally, a bee stinger can still inject poisen after it's been severed from the bee but, the bee dies off and so does the stinger)
Fact: In a 1998 article in the journal Cell, a group led by James Rothman, of the Sloan-Kettering Institute, described the remarkable simplicity and uniformity of cellular mechanisms
(A reference, if someone has an article on it please post or let me know)
Closing argument.
Darwin's case in point is that all things in natural selection was up to chance and, necessity, there was only a natural explaination to all evolutionary events. FACT.
In ordinary life the only explanation to these are chance, necessity, and design. Design being the most overly sufficent example.
But, how do we know that there was or wasn't an intelligent design in our world?
In special science's SETI, archeology and, forensics, in these sciences there are well developed techniques to identify intelligent design.
Intelligence design leaves behind a marking that is not repeatable by chance or, necessity. That's how it can be proven. FACT.
IReference.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/nhmag.html
http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/darwinanddesign.html
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Not evidence of ID.
just because a cell is "ultra-sophisticted" does not in anyway prove that a god is making or made this happen. If you believe this is evidence for ID, your belief is based on an argument from ignorance, a popular fallacy among proponents of ID.
irreducible complexity is an argument from ignorance also (we don't know, therefore goddidit).
this is one of the oldest refuted creationist arguments. The guy who coined the argument (Michael Behe) didn't even provide a testable hypothesis. Please, please please do not bring up the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics either as that only applies to closed systems.
Sorry, this is not evidence for ID
Argument from Ignorance, not evidence of ID
Argument from Ignorance bridging on Appeal to Authority fallacy.... not proof of ID.
And because scientists cannot explain "molecular machines" isn't evidence for ID. There are a lot of things scientists cannot explain. That's the nature of the world we live in. However, taking the extra step by saying it's created or Goddidit doesn't explain anytyhing....it's just an empty explanation not backed by any evidence. ID is a belief, it's faith.
Sorry, you've not provided any evidence for ID yet...
Interesting opinion.
do we know absolutley? no. however, there's no evidence or reason to assume it.
Sorry, this isn't the case. Bring the evidence forward but you'll need to do better than argument from ignorance.
ID is faith and it's taken on faith. There is no evidence for Goddidit.
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