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Marketing, Expansions, and Promises
Wepps
Member Posts: 1,322
...or, The Problem with SWG.
In existence is the largest development team in industry history. 70 developers, according to Smedley, have labored 5.5 years to produce...this.
So, what's wrong with this picture?
Expansions is ONE of the major issues here, and this ties directly to Marketing.
In order to build an expansion, what is being done is that an entire new game is being created and delivered in an independent format. The only thing different from the original game is that it is based on the original engine, so that doesn't need to be re-done, and Additional Content is much smaller in comparison to Original Content in general.
Problem 1 - A time-table is set, and given the case of SOE, that time-table will be met. It is the only thing you can count on with this game company in my opinion.
This time-table is always for the benefit of the Marketing Team, and never addresses the needs of the players. Granted, a study is performed, and given initial content of the game in general, it is determined when an expansion should be delivered so that players are not lost due to lack there-of.
In the case of SWG, the game was released with minimal content in comparison to others of the time, but they neglected to realize that you simply cannot deliver a Star Wars game without space combat. The saga is too much reliant upon space to ignore.
This problem, the one in which the developers felt that the initial price of the game didn't warrant space content, has led to a great many other problems since.
Problem 2 - The game was released, replete with bugs and imbalances in such a degree that the CSR could not keep up with all the tickets being generated. However, the development team was already on the first expansion. Jump to Lightspeed, the game that should have been included with the original.
A minimal team was retained for bug corrections, but there were no personnel left over to address the necessary immersive aspects of the game which were missing entirely.
Now that the great majority of developers were technically working on an entirely different product, nothing was being addressed properly at the primary game's level. Nothing could be done about this, because SOE had a Marketing time-table to meet.
The problems with balance were growing with each nerf. The team assigned to problems with the current game, according to my calculations based upon developer feedback while I was correspondent, included a total of 5 developers. I never witnessed more than this number at a get-together, or saw more than 5 posting in the correspondent forum.
This means of the original 60 developers, 55 were on Jump to Lightspeed.
The problems with the initial product could never be corrected under those conditions, but people were willing to wait for JTL so that their professions of choice would finally be addressed.
Problem 3 - The Jedi.
Addition of an entirely new class drew more resources than expected. What was worse was the next step, RotW expansion. Apparently enough money hadn't been stripped from the players bank accounts yet, so it was time to add an extremely lame expansion diabolically short on content.
A whole new product is now being addressed, and the rest of the development team not working on the expansion are addressing...the needs of the Jedi population exclusively.
The standard, base professions which drive the game were totally ignored for more than a year and a half.
People began leaving in larger and larger numbers. There was simply nothing more to look forward to. This was the problem which created the Jedi class in the first place. If the needs of the mundane professions were addressed in the potentially immersive aspects of those individual professions, there would have been no need to add the alpha class.
However, people were seeking something new and hopefully interesting, so about half the population started pursuing Jedi as the alternative to total boredom.
SOE misjudged the cries for the Jedi class, and gave what they wanted rather than do the right thing and fix what was wrong with the current game.
In fact, the Jedi issue should never have arisen at all. But it did. This led to no less than 9 months straight of one Jedi Patch after the next Jedi Patch, and nothing was being done about the flaws in content and immersion that existed in the original version.
Further, given the small number of developers available, it became clear that there was no possible way after all the nerfs to correctly balance the existing game.
Hence...
Problem 4 - The Combat Upgrade. (techically, a symptom - not a problem)
The necessity to redo the combat system was obvious 2 years ago. Even at that time there was talk of a complete overhaul, and total balancing act performed on the main professions.
The necessity arose because of the lack of attention paid by the majority of the development team on correcting the issues with the first version. They were way too busy with expansions.
But now, Torres orders the CU, and the developers finally turn to the problems with the Combat System.
The result was a major change in the base game play, which always will result in a loss of players in great numbers. It was their own fault, though it became necessary. The result of the CU was an almost completely balanced system not unlike the first.
When I returned to test it, I found it to be a much better system than the original.
However, what was forgotten in all this was the potentially immersive aspects of Star Wars again, the initial problem that caused the cascade of changes.
Nothing was being done to address this, but most recently came the professional upgrades one at a time.
IT WAS ABOUT TIME. Though not everybody agreed with the changes, they were indeed adding slowly that immersive content that players have been seeking all along.
Once the professional changes were complete, all that truly remained to be done was to bring the Bounty Hunter professional missions system to the rest of the mundane professions, and tie each profession to 2 or 3 others in the game play, and the GAME WOULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETE.
I have to admit, when I glanced at the CU guide in the Best Buy, i had to chuckle at what each professions was listed as in their base purpose in group combat. Bounty Hunter = TANK? Pfft aahaha.
But it was true! They had done what they said they would do.
It took some time, but the players they lost were either returning or being replaced, and it was my judgement that they had broken the original player base numbers in the last 2 months as a result.
Good things were happening to the game.
But it wasn't enough. The development team got lazy again. They understood that all that work required to bring immersion to the game finally would work their fingers to bone if they didn't completely dumb it down to a base level and start over again.
Problem 5 - The original problem exists again, and the NGE is the result.
No immersion. The game is boring, even though the CU did everything possible to balance it and bring much better base game play to the game.
Rather than finish the mundane profession revamps with a unique vision, and apply that immersion everybody is seeking, they decided instead to take the cheap and easy path.
However, this path included gating everybody's efforts over the past 2 and a half years by completely removing many of the professions, and giving everybody 10 basic actions in combat. Immediately, a campaign of 'Lying to Themselves' takes place, and they are comfortable justified that this was a necessary thing.
And once again, we are back to 70 developers without a clue.
The game now lacks freedom of choice. If you want to advance, you have to do it their way ala World of Warcraft. This was a huge mistake.
I fully believe that they looked at the subscription numbers at WoW, saw 5 million, and actually believed that THEIR system of doing things was superior. I believe they chose to try and steal some of THAT player base, rather than maintain their own.
That choice will lead to the ultimate failure, the game WILL die. This is something unprecedented in MMO industry history.
Conclusion
I fully support what they attempted to do with the NGE, only because it brought an immersion to the game that has been lacking since its initial design discussions.
I completely disagree with their methods of implementation, and it has become clear that 9/10 of the current player base is willing to up and quit over this issue.
SOE cannot be trusted to get off the lazy behinds and FIX WHAT THEY HAVE. I am convinced that, even if they roll it back to CU, or even pre-CU, or even offer many servers with options, it will only serve to bring half those players back to the game. In fact, I believe most will never play an MMO again. (and this is why many in the industry have been very vocal concerning SOE's diabolical practices concerning their customers)
Choose the version, and make the promise that you will never do this again to the customers. Take that version, and concentrate on finishing the professions, in a CLEAN and WORKING format deliver it the customers. Add the immersive aspects of Star Wars to the unique missions of each and every profession in the game.
THIS is what should have been done from the start.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Comments
AMEN!
/cry
They are NEVER going to have more than one version of the game available on seperate servers, so just stop it. No company could afford 2 sets of devs, even SOE. I personally don't care about methods and trust when I'm dealing with a game company. If I like the game I play, if I don't I play something else.
If you feel so affronted by alleged broken promises, then vote with your dollars. Simply don't play. It truly boggles my mind how otherwise intelligent people will harbor a hatred usually reserved for murderers and child rapists for a gaming company. It's sad to think how these people deal with other problems in life.
Again, it boils down to a relationship. When you pick an MMORPG and invest your money (which you can vote with) and your time (lost time can't be brought back) - you enter a relationship. You are giving the game the two things I just mentioned and they are supposed to give you entertainment and more importantly in an MMORPG environment - continuity. A persistant world where our time spent there means something.
SOE may well have a better system in the NGE (once it is fixed and working) but again, two years into a relationship they went typhoid mary on us and not only changed what we knew but killed off much of what we knew or even who we knew. Yeah, yeah people say its their game and their rules but then again - take away MY two years, his two years, her two years and so on and guess what - SWG would have had any funding during those said years and would have been buried.
Whats more - they bold faced LIED to the Rangers and smugglers strunging us along. Tell me and answer me this one question. Was that fair? Was it fair to take our money, string us along and pay thier NGE devs with our money? They went as far as to have dialogue with us about the upcoming revamp. Not the NGE revamp but the ranger revamp. They were lying the entire time and people do not like to be lied to. There is some of your anger justification.
You may not think trust is an important issue when it involves your time and money but that is you. I suggest buying a yugo, go work for a company running out of the back of a truck, help transfer those funds from that poor nigerian banker and enjoy yourself. Its all about the moment isnt it?
To me, this kind of anger results from betrayal. The kind we reserve for cheaters, whores, thieves and those who would trample upon us if we allowed them to. Yeah, I walked away with my money and time but then again just because someone allows you to live after robbing you blind doesn't mena you shouldn't make sure that they pay for their act. This forum allows us to voice our anger and warn those who have yet to lose and do not need to be treated as we were.
I don't hate them. I hate what they've done, or that is, the methods in which they were done.
Really, the CU was never required. Neither was the NGE. The only thing required was a commitment on their part to fix the main game, and stop assigning the vast majority of devs to expansions and other nonsense.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
How these people deal with other problems in life.....with passion of course!
I for one an more for them being passionate about what they love (I'm one of them I am pretty sure, but I don't post on the SWG forums like some do..lol )
I do think saying the NGE is never going to go away is not a law of physics yet....ANYTHING can happen if the right stock holder gets a whif of this turmoil!!!
I have a friend who wrote the shareholders of Symantec over a SIMPLE Norton security suite bug....THAT SAME DAY the HEAD of the dev team called his house and resolved his issue.....if they can just find the right media outlet to make their voices heard, it is VERY possible to be back to November 14th in one 4 hour shutdown.
Faxx
Exactly. I hope all other game companies hold SWG up as an example of what not to do.
Don't ignore bugs.
Don't ignore players.
But there's no getting the genie back in the bottle. It will be a lesson for next time.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Wepps and Kefkah
I must say. In the about 2 years I have been visiting MMORPG.com. Your two post have been probably the best I've ever seen to date. If SOE had hired people like you two. They probably wouldn't be in the mess they are in now.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
lol thanks.
Nobody listens to me. If I were working for SOE, nobody would be listening to me and I would be paid for it.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Man there are so many people with great idea's and always have been since day 2 ( i remenber the only idea on day one was why cant we log in .. fix it!)
I cant understand why nothing ever suggested ever gets looked at /implemented.
if you're really lucky a red name posts " thanks for the feedback we will look into this as soon as we can thanks you again!"
and then the red name gets treated like a superstar for posting ...
Some of Wepps ideas would even bring (me) to play the NGE again , but i KNOW SOE wont listen , not when people like anarchy is telling them how wonderful life is in SWG and nothing is wrong. Sadly thats the only posts that management get to see.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Problem is tha tSOE does have people like Wepps and the other passionate posters here, but after a few months of working for the suits and being put under pressure to produce somebody elses vision 'just so' and then being held responsable for every Mickey Mouse decision taken from marketting thru to distribution....
... they get kinda squished.
Thats what happened to our corrospondents isnt it? some of them were dann good , others kinda good.
But after a while it became obvious to even the 9 month 4 post lurker that the corrs were being ignored by the management, so then the players just lost respect for them.
sad sad business design
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Do you want an honest answer why?
Because what you have there is the largest collection of arrogant geeks ever assembled to build a game. They could give you the worst crap on the planet, but they are still taking home paychecks of $80k and UP, and that's confirmed. They are justified in their own work therefore, and couldn't give a rat's ass about you or anybody else.
Certainly, they aren't going to listen to ANYBODY that thinks something in their perfect program should change. They are honestly nothing more than high paid children.
And this is NOT a cynical viewpoint, THIS IS HOW GAME DEVELOPERS ARE! All of them! They are nothing more than a bunch of over-worked programming geeks with no life, and no chance ever of getting laid if it weren't for the big paychecks.
What you are dealing with here is a very large assemblage of attitude problems. Under any circumstances approaching this, you need a strong management to keep them in line, and insight into human behavior beyond what SOE management has ever proven they are capable of...
This is partly why I find them to be incompetent.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
LOL i work for uh ... well i wait ..
Im a programmor - pregrammar - uh progrrammer ---bleh I WRITE CODE! there 8)
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
One of the Conan developers admitted to it recently too.
I'll have to go find the thread later. Basically, he said, "No developer ever understands why they have to make a change."
That's because developers in general don't understand creative thought outside the program code design itself, which is creative thinking but at a lower plane.
Very very few see the big picture. When challenged, they often respond badly. Their social skills are underdeveloped, and the result is often a tantrum. As a team grows in size, individual responsibility becomes more and more shared. In the case of SWG development, the team is so large that you could do stupid and nasty things to the code even deliberately, and you will never be held accountable.
So I could come up with the greatest idea in gaming history, and these geeks would feel free to implement it in a badly broken fashion, just to protest the fact they had to make a change to their baby.
The best advice I could give a coder...is to remove yourself from the program emotionally. Make is as perfect as possible, and then look upon it as a pile of dogcrap just waiting to be fixed.
But the SWg team has been patting themselves on the back since late beta, and even then the game was hardly begun in its implementation. Since release, this team has been fouling up everything, and after all this time I'm starting to get the impression that it really IS deliberate.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
oh well , this crew was destined to fail form the git-go, Smed stacked it with his yes men ( like he always does) so now they not only are clueless about players but unwilling to even admit when something cant be done without causeing more problems than it solves.
great -
damn i need a new sci fi game besides AO im bored there now and im only level 50.
Too bad Imperator got axed
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Hehe yeah me too. I dont really recognize myself in the description of the poster above. But I dont code games (more database related stuff) so maybe that's it
.
I havent written a line of code in possibly 5 years. But i own the company now so IF I HAVE TO COME DOWN THERE TO SEE WHAT YOU"VE DONE NOW !!!all hell breaks loose lol.
IF SOE needs a competent crew we come off our current job in 3 weeks ( if all goes well) , we are in last stages of our testing and should have it out the door by the end of the year. We are staffed with over 90 specialist coders , even tho we are not cheap , nothing worthwhile is.
But we have never done a full on game before so maybe not eh we cant do worse.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Oh, you better let Mythic know they can't afford all the difference versions of DAoC they are running. They currently run atleast 4 different varieties of the game.
And SOE most certainly could afford to do it, they just won't. Some of the reasons they won't I can understand and respect. One would be the extra labors involved in keeping 2 seperate versions of the game current with that nightmare of a code base they have. Another would involve them investing back into their product and losing a small percentage of their current revenue, which isn't going to happen.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Oh, you better let Mythic know they can't afford all the difference versions of DAoC they are running. They currently run atleast 4 different varieties of the game.
And SOE most certainly could afford to do it, they just won't. Some of the reasons they won't I can understand and respect. One would be the extra labors involved in keeping 2 seperate versions of the game current with that nightmare of a code base they have. Another would involve them investing back into their product and losing a small percentage of their current revenue, which isn't going to happen.
You know.. they keep using the "current" and "updated" words to say why they can't run a pre-cu server. Funny thing is that most of the players who want a pre-cu server, or a (yuk) pre nge server DON'T CARE if they get one more expansion, or add on, or any more content. They just want to play the game they love.
It's the DEVS who know that we'd accept no more new turds like Mustifarce... just to have pre-cu. They know we'd never shell out 30 bucks for 5 bucks worth of content, and THAT is why they don't want to have "two dev teams"... when all the pre-cu servers would need is someone to make sure the servers stay on.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Yeah, DAoC pulls one expansion out of the mix and some ablitities and you call it a different version of the game? It isn't two completely distinct versions of the game and you know it. And how many professions are there in DAoC? 32? Less right? And how much land area does DAoC consist of? SWG dwarfs DAoC in pure size and variety so that's not a fair comparison.
They have 70 or so people working on SWG, taking half of those people to work on a Pre-CU version of the game and fix bugs and develop content IS too much for mythic or SOE to accomplish without either version of the game suffering.
It's not gonna happen either way, and I LOVE the NGE! It's fun, and when it's not, I'll go back to EQ2.
Hell.. 70 of 'em couldn't get the bugs gone before.. what makes you think they'll do it now?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Yes... but there were only 12 classes to "balance" before and they couldn't pull that off in 2 years.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0