I am glad WoW is what it is. I am also glad that it is as successful as it is.
It means that nobody else will ever be able to enter the MMORPG market without major innovation.
AFter all, would you try to make a new Operateing System, in direct competiton with Windows, without something so amazeingly new that people would literally HAVE to use your OS?
WoW is the microsoft of the MMORPG bussiness. You CAN NOT compete with them on their own terms and walk away alive. You WILL NOT WIN. You CAN NOT WIN.
The next 'big' MMORPG will be one with significant innovation. We will see no more EQ clones.(Except piss-poor half assed jobs by incompetant dreams, like D&L
Next time just put "WoW Rant" for your thread title...it'd save us all some time.
Oh and PS. to all those who say "fetch" quests are crap, have you actually DONE any of WoW's "fetch" quests? I thought they were very well designed, had storylines, etc. (Much better than the mediocre to dismal quests of EQII, CoV, CoH, EVE and basically every other mmorpg out there)
WoW is the best (most all-round polished & well-designed) mmo out there at the current time. If it's NOT your style of game, then you'll have to settle for one of the slightly (to massively) inferior other products in current release. (Or wait...DDO, CoS & AoC...looking good...hehe)
I thought he was fearful of MMOG's being dummied down and too much alike based on WoW's success. There is definitely a lack of quality and innovative MMOG's out there atm.
Thankyou Jorev, that's spot on.
And Xira, excellent post, you raise some hopeful points!
Hadz, the focus of my post was to undermine the cliches in MMORPG's, and despite WoW's flawless execution and astounding success, it still is entirely based upon those cliches. Hence WoW copped quite a bit in my original post.
Try to see through the WoW bashing and concentrate on the issues that it addresses.
Oh, and I have done WoW's fetch quests. I was actually asked to collect 10 apples for an NPC. Enough said.
I thought he was fearful of MMOG's being dummied down and too much alike based on WoW's success. There is definitely a lack of quality and innovative MMOG's out there atm.
Thankyou Jorev, that's spot on.
And Xira, excellent post, you raise some hopeful points!
Hadz, the focus of my post was to undermine the cliches in MMORPG's, and despite WoW's flawless execution and astounding success, it still is entirely based upon those cliches. Hence WoW copped quite a bit in my original post.
Try to see through the WoW bashing and concentrate on the issues that it addresses.
Oh, and I have done WoW's fetch quests. I was actually asked to collect 10 apples for an NPC. Enough said.
Yeah, that's ONE example. There's plenty more that are GOOD examples, you just picked a bad one. What about the goblin ones in Stonetalon where you have to steal the plans from the company loggers, and that whole series. Or the class quest ones, or the Horde raider/messenger quests. So what I'm saying is, there may be a few dodgy ones but overall they do more to advance the story and make the game interesting than ANY of the other MMOs I've played. But then, I admit not everyone feels that way. I accept that.
The main thing I think WoW-knockers should consider is that there is NO WAY (at the moment at least) that we can say WoW has affected MMO design. As NO other MMO has been started & completed SINCE WoW was released; we're going to have to hold off judging its influence 'till that happens, and I feel it'll be at least 2007 before a truly WoW influenced MMO sees the light (at least one that's good, and not rushed)...then we can conclude if WoW was a copy-cat-producer. (And even if that happens, it's STILL not WoW's fault, but just lazy game developers, and an undiscerning public. Hopefully there are people out there that feel like I do; even though I liked WoW alot, I'm still more discerning than to buy a carbon-copy.)
EDIT: The recent foolish actions of SoE, with SWG particularly and EQII to some extent, may have been a reaction to WoW's success, but I don't think it will set a standard for future MMOs, the terrible reaction to SWG changes will show in the long run that copy-catting doesn't necessarily work (and particularly not for established titles). I think, overall, WoW will make the genre better for everyone (except possibly for niche gamers, such as FFAPvPers, who are almost dodo-dead anyway, and hardcore-crafters, which is slightly more sad).
NO other MMO has been started & completed SINCE WoW was released
That's a very good observation. We really will have to wait to see what type of impact WoW has made on the genre.
I also agree that we cannot blame the developers if we feel we're not happy with the product. The producers only make what they think the consumers demand the most. It's our fault.
And in regards to questing: Perhaps WoW has made questing more interesting, but they're still just quests. I say this coming from my experience in FoM. The quests in this game were set by players, and actually had an impact upon the game. Granted FoM is a PvP game, but cannot similar ideas be used in a PvM setting?
My main gripe with questing is thus:
When Archibald the NPC asks me to fetch apples to feed his dying cow, I know that if I DON'T fetch the apples, his cow will live anyway.
When the NPC trainer yells "run to the gates, help fend off the zombie attacks!", I know that if I DON'T run to the gates, the zombies will still be killed by NPC guards. Even if I do kill the zombies, an unlimited amount will continue to spawn and the pointless cycle will continue.
Catch my drift?
The "story" behind the "quests" is just a formality. The quests aren't immersive, they're just tools to further advance your character under a fancy mask.
The secret to Blizzard's success can be traced back to its roots: Diablo 2, and BattleNet.
Diablo 2 is not strictly an MMORPG. In fact, it was designed as a single player game that can be enjoyed in its entirety without ever going online. However, the compelling quality of Diablo 2's solo gameplay is even better when played online.
Granted, Diablo 2 is not as "deep" or "sophisticated" of a multiplayer environment as an MMORPG. This is because Diablo 2 does not change. While many see this as a weakness, it is also its greatest strength. The fact that the game remains pretty much the same today, as it did back five years ago, means that Diablo 2 is like the local bar, or the coffee house. Its like coming home, and that is why players enjoy making a home there.
Just like Diablo 2, World of Warcraft does not have the best graphics (though they are impressive, just as Diablo 2's were in its day).
Just like Diablo 2, World of Warcraft has relatively "shallow" gameplay.
Just like Diablo 2, World of Warcraft has no appreciable "endgame."
But I do have to say one thing that is in World of Warcraft's favor that no other MMORPG can really claim.
It is stable, and doesn't change in readily appreciable ways.
This is not a fashionable trend in the MMOG industry. In fact, the MMOG industry feels that change is a strength of their genre, and I would argue MMOG developers today are obsessed with change.
But just because the fashionable trend in MMOG development circles is the "living and evolving world of constant developer revision," it doesn't mean the playing public is interested in it. Bug fixes? definitely. Balance? Most likely. But I do believe that in many MMOGs these days, the development cadre is using its prerogative too drastically, and the popularity of Blizzard's games is proof of that.
What impact has WoW made on the genre? They have shown that solid builds make a difference. They have shown that staying the hand of change makes a difference. They understand that the true appeal of online games is very similar to the appeal we have toward an old friend we visit, and bring into our lives with regularity.
We don't visit our best friends because they are new, always different, and always changing. We visit them because they are as they always were, even if they have the occasional fault.
SOE, Turbine, NCsoft, and Mythic. The public you want is trying to tell you something, and its NOT to duplicate WoW's gameplay. What they are telling you is to duplicate Blizzard's "devplay," or to be more exact, the lack of "devplay," past launch.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I read somewhere in this thread that there aren't any "best games" but only favourites (or something like that :P) and I totally agree. Although in the evergrowing world of MMORPGs there hasn't been much innovation for the past year or so people are still trying out new games and pick the one that works for them. Eg. I stated MMORPGs with MU Online (sorry about that ) and found it extremely boring and repetative. I made a grand leap -after reading about other games- and landed on SWG. The game was great ,there was very little repetativeness and I had alot of fun. My problem? Time. I needed to commit alot of time in the game in order to keep my interest going. So I quit SWG and a friend got me into FFXI which I have been playing for the past 5 months. FFXI has managed to cover my "needs" as an MMORPG gamer and up to now I have been very satisfied. That is what most people are looking for-or at least the ones who know what they want. Satisfaction. IMO WoW has currently become a sort of main attraction of the MMO genre and has been attracting more and more players. Some of them (doesn't matter how many) at some point feel that the game doesn't fullfill their "needs" and try something else. We should be thankful that there are games like that which help our community grow even more.
If WoW sucks so much, why are so many people having fun playing it ? Just because you're one of the minority mmog players who doesn't like it, doesn't make it a bad game.
It does lack depth, but it's easy fun that doesn't require you to give up any hope of a real life just to be good at a game.
I know that if I DON'T fetch the apples, his cow will live anyway.
I know that if I DON'T run to the gates, the zombies will still be killed by NPC guards.
That's exactly why I'm waiting for MMOCenter's The Chronicle and maybe other MMORPGs I haven't heard of.
They promised the world would be truly dynamic and that's what I need because I can't stand seeing every player doing the same quests in the same order using the same strategy anymore.
If goblin raiders are set on raiding the farms and killing the farmers, I need to know that if I sit on my butt the farms will burn and people will die.
Then, I also need to be able to build defenses and hire NPCs in case I'm not there (logged in) when they attack.
It's very ambitious and I just hope they will succeed.
Else, I'm looking forward to Alan Wake, Gothic 3, Oblivion, The Witcher and a sequel to Indigo Prophecy and, as you guessed, they're not MMORPGs.
The original warhammer 40k mmog that got canceled was like that. If the players didn't fight back the chaos spawns they'd start to take over the world.
the new ones not 40k so it will probably just be another fantacy clone
Originally posted by Dodoo They promised the world would be truly dynamic and that's what I need because I can't stand seeing every player doing the same quests in the same order using the same strategy anymore.
If goblin raiders are set on raiding the farms and killing the farmers, I need to know that if I sit on my butt the farms will burn and people will die.
While the idea is an excellent one, truly dynamic quests are not feasible in MMO practice (well, not at the moment...and maybe they never will be).
Just thinking for a short time about the situation confirms it. IF goblin raiders burn the farms because of your idleness (or lack of time at the particular moment, having a lack of NPC guards, or whatever) then NO other player can EVER save those farms again. The story arc is gone, any quests that were related to it are dead, and all developer work associated with it is used up (well, until they're rebuilt somehow...maybe in another quest...but then you just get a cyclical repetitiveness with alternating 1 and 0 quests). If the cow dies cause no one feeds it apples, however, this is less "solvable" for a dynamic world. (There is of course the instancing solution...and I believe a clever use of instancing is the future of mmorpgs...even though it has its drawbacks too)
Hopefully if we continue to demand excellence from game developers they may eventually come up with a workable solution. Unfortunately, even with a demand for excellence, it's still going to be a difficult problem to solve (and any solution will surely not please everybody). That being said, I'm looking forward to games like the Chronicle, and others, to see if they can integrate good storytelling with a truly dynamic world, or if (as I expect) we can only have one or the other.
While the idea is an excellent one, truly dynamic quests are not feasible in MMO practice (well, not at the moment...and maybe they never will be).
Hope is free, I use lots of it every day and it costs me nothing.
NO other player can EVER save those farms again.
Well, yeah, that's actually the point of it all. But they will be able to save other farms, built elsewhere, another day.
The story arc is gone, any quests that were related to it are dead, and all developer work associated with it is used up.
Maybe it was not part of the global storyline, maybe it was just a dynamic event taking place because said goblins happen to be scouring the land for crops and cattle. The devs just spawned them somewhere in the world and the rest is history.
That being said, I'm looking forward to games like the Chronicle, and others, to see if they can integrate good storytelling with a truly dynamic world, or if (as I expect) we can only have one or the other.
A dynamic world driven by a good AI system is not incompatible with scripted or planned events who advance the global storyline. In fact you can choose to "just" set the initial parameters and the way players address it determine the outcome.
I don't think the current state of MMOs is all that dismal. We have WoW, CoH/V, DAoC, EQ/2, etc.... All good games, alike in some ways but enough different about each to attract is own community. Sure, AC and, more recently, SWG have screwed up but stuff happens. We have lots of MMOs on the horizon, too. Age of Conan, DDO, DnL, Tabula Rasa, Auto Assult, Vanguard, a couple of comic book MMORPGs still nameless... most of those seem to be offering something very different from those already on the market. That's a lot of games to look forward to, even if several don't make it to launch day.
Sure, Blizzard took the bits and pieces of what customers seem to like the most, stuck it in their very cute Warcraft world, polished it up and made it nice and shiny and released it to the public who ate it up. You seem to not understand this very well and are trying to pidgeon hole people into catagories. Most gamers all have one thing in common... they play what they feel is fun. What the fun stops happening, they eventually wander off. No one would play an MMOG that didn't give them something they wanted... fun, community, hot animal monkey sex, whatever it is.
Your catagories encompass nearly every sort of gamer... from the newbie to the veteran to the guy just passing time til something better comes a long. I suppose that makes a point for you... ?
4) Those that SOE robbed and laughed at and now feel more violated than a jawa scratching jabba's back ...and decide why not...lets try out WoW..its not all to bad i think
Originally posted by Copeland Has blizzard made an enormous profit? The game cost $100 million to make. It seems to me that they need to pull the game off for another 2 years before you can call it enormous. I would say in the first year their goal was to pay for the cost of manufacturing, distributing and supporting the game. They were indeed successful with that but if you tally up the numbers they didnt turn a huge profit. If they survive this next year with DnL and Vanguard coming out (the big guns) then they'll make a huge profit.
Vanguard a "big gun"? Be for real, thats a laugh! The thing may not even launch, and I am FAR from the only one feeling that way. WoW will have at least 8 times the player of sorry Vanguard.
Another reason why WoW doing so good becuase you don't need that elite computer to run it fine.
All the upcoming mmorpgs look like I need to spend $500 on a new video card.
-- "Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Originally posted by Copeland Has blizzard made an enormous profit? The game cost $100 million to make. It seems to me that they need to pull the game off for another 2 years before you can call it enormous. I would say in the first year their goal was to pay for the cost of manufacturing, distributing and supporting the game. They were indeed successful with that but if you tally up the numbers they didnt turn a huge profit. If they survive this next year with DnL and Vanguard coming out (the big guns) then they'll make a huge profit. WoW has a limited lifespan. It's not a game designed to last 7 years such as EQ or UO. It's a successful game and not a bad one at that but dont go thinking Blizzard is rich like Bill Gates.
So where exactly did you come up with the $100 million to make? Did you pull that number out of yoru ass? As far as I know the most expensive game to date was FFXI at around $25 million as was posted on there website awhile back.
I don't think the current state of MMOs is all that dismal. We have WoW, CoH/V, DAoC, EQ/2
All of which (excluding CoH) are entirely dependent on overdone MMORPG cliches. This was the main point in my post. I'll state for the record that DAoC did wonders for the genre through it's RvR warfare.
Sure, Blizzard took the bits and pieces of what customers seem to like the most, stuck it in their very cute Warcraft world, polished it up and made it nice and shiny and released it to the public who ate it up. You seem to not understand this very well
I understand this very well, infact you've practically repeated one of the lines in my post:
Magicalsteve: Blizzard has recently made an enormous profit by throwing every shameful MMORPG cliche into a box, polishing it up, and slapping on a popular theme.
And finally in regards to this....
Your catagories encompass nearly every sort of gamer... from the newbie to the veteran to the guy just passing time til something better comes a long. I suppose that makes a point for you... ?
The purpose of identifying the player types in WoW was to try to understand how subscription numbers are so high, and to determine whether games like WoW will be successful in years to come.
Signe but it appears that you've hardly read my original post, or at least put little effort into grasping the issues raised. Instead, your reply tells me that you simply looked for areas in which it could be critisized. For that matter I can only assume that I ruffled your feathers with either my harsh description of WoW, or my blatant stereotyping of WoW players. If that was the case, then I apologize.
I really must say I find youir opinion to the mmog newbie as " being sucked into a mmog world then hooked" I little presumptious and insulting. I personnally no longer play wow,( I lasted 4 months) however I am mature enough to acknowledge that it was a quality game and very fun while it lasted. Honestly those 4 months were the longest any game held my interest including other mmorpgs( well maybe tied now with coh-v).
I think you missed 1 catagory in your makeup of wow subscribers, thats those of us that didnt have the patience for the massive grinds and timesinks the older mmorpgs were famous for. We are a vast vocal minority in the mmo forums yet quickly becoming a majority in the mmorpg player base.
However, if you do wish to reply, please don't flame me for ragging on WoW and various gamer stereotypes. I realise that I was exaggerating and generalising.
However, if you do wish to reply, please don't flame me for ragging on WoW and various gamer stereotypes. I realise that I was exaggerating and generalising.
However, if you do wish to reply, please don't flame me for ragging on WoW and various gamer stereotypes. I realise that I was exaggerating and generalising.
Sorry if my post was controversial, but please just stay on topic!
No no, you didn't ruffle my feathers or annoy me at all... I'm sorry if it sounded as if you did. I don't get ruffled much over this sort of thing, trust me. Please don't take offense.... sorry if I misunderstood your post. I'm not one of those angry gamers!
Comments
I am glad WoW is what it is.
I am also glad that it is as successful as it is.
It means that nobody else will ever be able to enter the MMORPG market without major innovation.
AFter all, would you try to make a new Operateing System, in direct competiton with Windows, without something so amazeingly new that people would literally HAVE to use your OS?
WoW is the microsoft of the MMORPG bussiness. You CAN NOT compete with them on their own terms and walk away alive. You WILL NOT WIN. You CAN NOT WIN.
The next 'big' MMORPG will be one with significant innovation. We will see no more EQ clones.(Except piss-poor half assed jobs by incompetant dreams, like D&L
Next time just put "WoW Rant" for your thread title...it'd save us all some time.
Oh and PS. to all those who say "fetch" quests are crap, have you actually DONE any of WoW's "fetch" quests? I thought they were very well designed, had storylines, etc. (Much better than the mediocre to dismal quests of EQII, CoV, CoH, EVE and basically every other mmorpg out there)
WoW is the best (most all-round polished & well-designed) mmo out there at the current time. If it's NOT your style of game, then you'll have to settle for one of the slightly (to massively) inferior other products in current release. (Or wait...DDO, CoS & AoC...looking good...hehe)
Thankyou Jorev, that's spot on.
And Xira, excellent post, you raise some hopeful points!
Hadz, the focus of my post was to undermine the cliches in MMORPG's, and despite WoW's flawless execution and astounding success, it still is entirely based upon those cliches. Hence WoW copped quite a bit in my original post.
Try to see through the WoW bashing and concentrate on the issues that it addresses.
Oh, and I have done WoW's fetch quests. I was actually asked to collect 10 apples for an NPC. Enough said.
Thankyou Jorev, that's spot on.
And Xira, excellent post, you raise some hopeful points!
Hadz, the focus of my post was to undermine the cliches in MMORPG's, and despite WoW's flawless execution and astounding success, it still is entirely based upon those cliches. Hence WoW copped quite a bit in my original post.
Try to see through the WoW bashing and concentrate on the issues that it addresses.
Oh, and I have done WoW's fetch quests. I was actually asked to collect 10 apples for an NPC. Enough said.
Yeah, that's ONE example. There's plenty more that are GOOD examples, you just picked a bad one. What about the goblin ones in Stonetalon where you have to steal the plans from the company loggers, and that whole series. Or the class quest ones, or the Horde raider/messenger quests. So what I'm saying is, there may be a few dodgy ones but overall they do more to advance the story and make the game interesting than ANY of the other MMOs I've played. But then, I admit not everyone feels that way. I accept that.
The main thing I think WoW-knockers should consider is that there is NO WAY (at the moment at least) that we can say WoW has affected MMO design. As NO other MMO has been started & completed SINCE WoW was released; we're going to have to hold off judging its influence 'till that happens, and I feel it'll be at least 2007 before a truly WoW influenced MMO sees the light (at least one that's good, and not rushed)...then we can conclude if WoW was a copy-cat-producer. (And even if that happens, it's STILL not WoW's fault, but just lazy game developers, and an undiscerning public. Hopefully there are people out there that feel like I do; even though I liked WoW alot, I'm still more discerning than to buy a carbon-copy.)
EDIT: The recent foolish actions of SoE, with SWG particularly and EQII to some extent, may have been a reaction to WoW's success, but I don't think it will set a standard for future MMOs, the terrible reaction to SWG changes will show in the long run that copy-catting doesn't necessarily work (and particularly not for established titles). I think, overall, WoW will make the genre better for everyone (except possibly for niche gamers, such as FFAPvPers, who are almost dodo-dead anyway, and hardcore-crafters, which is slightly more sad).
That's a very good observation. We really will have to wait to see what type of impact WoW has made on the genre.
I also agree that we cannot blame the developers if we feel we're not happy with the product. The producers only make what they think the consumers demand the most. It's our fault.
And in regards to questing: Perhaps WoW has made questing more interesting, but they're still just quests. I say this coming from my experience in FoM. The quests in this game were set by players, and actually had an impact upon the game. Granted FoM is a PvP game, but cannot similar ideas be used in a PvM setting?
My main gripe with questing is thus:
When Archibald the NPC asks me to fetch apples to feed his dying cow, I know that if I DON'T fetch the apples, his cow will live anyway.
When the NPC trainer yells "run to the gates, help fend off the zombie attacks!", I know that if I DON'T run to the gates, the zombies will still be killed by NPC guards. Even if I do kill the zombies, an unlimited amount will continue to spawn and the pointless cycle will continue.
Catch my drift?
The "story" behind the "quests" is just a formality. The quests aren't immersive, they're just tools to further advance your character under a fancy mask.
The secret to Blizzard's success can be traced back to its roots: Diablo 2, and BattleNet.
Diablo 2 is not strictly an MMORPG. In fact, it was designed as a single player game that can be enjoyed in its entirety without ever going online. However, the compelling quality of Diablo 2's solo gameplay is even better when played online.
Granted, Diablo 2 is not as "deep" or "sophisticated" of a multiplayer environment as an MMORPG. This is because Diablo 2 does not change. While many see this as a weakness, it is also its greatest strength. The fact that the game remains pretty much the same today, as it did back five years ago, means that Diablo 2 is like the local bar, or the coffee house. Its like coming home, and that is why players enjoy making a home there.
Just like Diablo 2, World of Warcraft does not have the best graphics (though they are impressive, just as Diablo 2's were in its day).
Just like Diablo 2, World of Warcraft has relatively "shallow" gameplay.
Just like Diablo 2, World of Warcraft has no appreciable "endgame."
But I do have to say one thing that is in World of Warcraft's favor that no other MMORPG can really claim.
It is stable, and doesn't change in readily appreciable ways.
This is not a fashionable trend in the MMOG industry. In fact, the MMOG industry feels that change is a strength of their genre, and I would argue MMOG developers today are obsessed with change.
But just because the fashionable trend in MMOG development circles is the "living and evolving world of constant developer revision," it doesn't mean the playing public is interested in it. Bug fixes? definitely. Balance? Most likely. But I do believe that in many MMOGs these days, the development cadre is using its prerogative too drastically, and the popularity of Blizzard's games is proof of that.
What impact has WoW made on the genre? They have shown that solid builds make a difference. They have shown that staying the hand of change makes a difference. They understand that the true appeal of online games is very similar to the appeal we have toward an old friend we visit, and bring into our lives with regularity.
We don't visit our best friends because they are new, always different, and always changing. We visit them because they are as they always were, even if they have the occasional fault.
SOE, Turbine, NCsoft, and Mythic. The public you want is trying to tell you something, and its NOT to duplicate WoW's gameplay. What they are telling you is to duplicate Blizzard's "devplay," or to be more exact, the lack of "devplay," past launch.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I read somewhere in this thread that there aren't any "best games" but only favourites (or something like that :P) and I totally agree. Although in the evergrowing world of MMORPGs there hasn't been much innovation for the past year or so people are still trying out new games and pick the one that works for them.
) and found it extremely boring and repetative. I made a grand leap -after reading about other games- and landed on SWG. The game was great ,there was very little repetativeness and I had alot of fun. My problem? Time. I needed to commit alot of time in the game in order to keep my interest going. So I quit SWG and a friend got me into FFXI which I have been playing for the past 5 months. FFXI has managed to cover my "needs" as an MMORPG gamer and up to now I have been very satisfied. That is what most people are looking for-or at least the ones who know what they want. Satisfaction.
Eg. I stated MMORPGs with MU Online (sorry about that
IMO WoW has currently become a sort of main attraction of the MMO genre and has been attracting more and more players. Some of them (doesn't matter how many) at some point feel that the game doesn't fullfill their "needs" and try something else. We should be thankful that there are games like that which help our community grow even more.
If WoW sucks so much, why are so many people having fun playing it ? Just because you're one of the minority mmog players who doesn't like it, doesn't make it a bad game.
It does lack depth, but it's easy fun that doesn't require you to give up any hope of a real life just to be good at a game.
That's exactly why I'm waiting for MMOCenter's The Chronicle and maybe other MMORPGs I haven't heard of.
They promised the world would be truly dynamic and that's what I need because I can't stand seeing every player doing the same quests in the same order using the same strategy anymore.
If goblin raiders are set on raiding the farms and killing the farmers, I need to know that if I sit on my butt the farms will burn and people will die.
Then, I also need to be able to build defenses and hire NPCs in case I'm not there (logged in) when they attack.
It's very ambitious and I just hope they will succeed.
Else, I'm looking forward to Alan Wake, Gothic 3, Oblivion, The Witcher and a sequel to Indigo Prophecy and, as you guessed, they're not MMORPGs.
The original warhammer 40k mmog that got canceled was like that. If the players didn't fight back the chaos spawns they'd start to take over the world.
the new ones not 40k so it will probably just be another fantacy clone
If goblin raiders are set on raiding the farms and killing the farmers, I need to know that if I sit on my butt the farms will burn and people will die.
While the idea is an excellent one, truly dynamic quests are not feasible in MMO practice (well, not at the moment...and maybe they never will be).
Just thinking for a short time about the situation confirms it. IF goblin raiders burn the farms because of your idleness (or lack of time at the particular moment, having a lack of NPC guards, or whatever) then NO other player can EVER save those farms again. The story arc is gone, any quests that were related to it are dead, and all developer work associated with it is used up (well, until they're rebuilt somehow...maybe in another quest...but then you just get a cyclical repetitiveness with alternating 1 and 0 quests). If the cow dies cause no one feeds it apples, however, this is less "solvable" for a dynamic world. (There is of course the instancing solution...and I believe a clever use of instancing is the future of mmorpgs...even though it has its drawbacks too)
Hopefully if we continue to demand excellence from game developers they may eventually come up with a workable solution. Unfortunately, even with a demand for excellence, it's still going to be a difficult problem to solve (and any solution will surely not please everybody). That being said, I'm looking forward to games like the Chronicle, and others, to see if they can integrate good storytelling with a truly dynamic world, or if (as I expect) we can only have one or the other.
Hope is free, I use lots of it every day and it costs me nothing.
Well, yeah, that's actually the point of it all. But they will be able to save other farms, built elsewhere, another day.
Maybe it was not part of the global storyline, maybe it was just a dynamic event taking place because said goblins happen to be scouring the land for crops and cattle. The devs just spawned them somewhere in the world and the rest is history.
A dynamic world driven by a good AI system is not incompatible with scripted or planned events who advance the global storyline. In fact you can choose to "just" set the initial parameters and the way players address it determine the outcome.
Easier said than done I recon but let us H.O.P.E.
I don't think the current state of MMOs is all that dismal. We have WoW, CoH/V, DAoC, EQ/2, etc.... All good games, alike in some ways but enough different about each to attract is own community. Sure, AC and, more recently, SWG have screwed up but stuff happens. We have lots of MMOs on the horizon, too. Age of Conan, DDO, DnL, Tabula Rasa, Auto Assult, Vanguard, a couple of comic book MMORPGs still nameless... most of those seem to be offering something very different from those already on the market. That's a lot of games to look forward to, even if several don't make it to launch day.
Sure, Blizzard took the bits and pieces of what customers seem to like the most, stuck it in their very cute Warcraft world, polished it up and made it nice and shiny and released it to the public who ate it up. You seem to not understand this very well and are trying to pidgeon hole people into catagories. Most gamers all have one thing in common... they play what they feel is fun. What the fun stops happening, they eventually wander off. No one would play an MMOG that didn't give them something they wanted... fun, community, hot animal monkey sex, whatever it is.
Your catagories encompass nearly every sort of gamer... from the newbie to the veteran to the guy just passing time til something better comes a long. I suppose that makes a point for you... ?
Lets not forget about class 4.
4) Those that SOE robbed and laughed at and now feel more violated than a jawa scratching jabba's back ...and decide why not...lets try out WoW..its not all to bad i think
Is that a post for the vision impaired or what?
The current state of mmorpgs is dismal?
I think people have far too short of an attention span, that's all.
Another reason why WoW doing so good becuase you don't need that elite computer to run it fine.
All the upcoming mmorpgs look like I need to spend $500 on a new video card.
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"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
So where exactly did you come up with the $100 million to make? Did you pull that number out of yoru ass? As far as I know the most expensive game to date was FFXI at around $25 million as was posted on there website awhile back.
$100 million, where did you read that? Seriously.
Signe:
All of which (excluding CoH) are entirely dependent on overdone MMORPG cliches. This was the main point in my post. I'll state for the record that DAoC did wonders for the genre through it's RvR warfare.
I understand this very well, infact you've practically repeated one of the lines in my post:
And finally in regards to this....
The purpose of identifying the player types in WoW was to try to understand how subscription numbers are so high, and to determine whether games like WoW will be successful in years to come.
Signe but it appears that you've hardly read my original post, or at least put little effort into grasping the issues raised.
Instead, your reply tells me that you simply looked for areas in which it could be critisized. For that matter I can only assume that I ruffled your feathers with either my harsh description of WoW, or my blatant stereotyping of WoW players. If that was the case, then I apologize.
I really must say I find youir opinion to the mmog newbie as " being sucked into a mmog world then hooked" I little presumptious and insulting. I personnally no longer play wow,( I lasted 4 months) however I am mature enough to acknowledge that it was a quality game and very fun while it lasted. Honestly those 4 months were the longest any game held my interest including other mmorpgs( well maybe tied now with coh-v).
I think you missed 1 catagory in your makeup of wow subscribers, thats those of us that didnt have the patience for the massive grinds and timesinks the older mmorpgs were famous for. We are a vast vocal minority in the mmo forums yet quickly becoming a majority in the mmorpg player base.
Apparantly I did not stress this enough.
Sorry if my post was controversial, but please just stay on topic!
Excellent post, magicalsteve. The only controversy in this thread is people having to think with their brains to come up with replys.
I played WoW for a month, got to level 40, only to realize that it was the same thing over and over again.
Instanceinstanceinstance grindgrindgrind pvppvp raid. Repeat.
No no, you didn't ruffle my feathers or annoy me at all... I'm sorry if it sounded as if you did. I don't get ruffled much over this sort of thing, trust me. Please don't take offense.... sorry if I misunderstood your post. I'm not one of those angry gamers!