There is nothing new or innovative being down with DDO that hasn't been done before. You may not have seen the combat system in an MMO but there are hundreds of games that are just like it.
Combat system aside, the game feels like City of Heroes. Nothing but instanced combat, oh and the really, really fun smashing crates to get loot
Answer to the first paragraph: Hanging from ledges, smashing barrels, a jump skill that actually defines how high and far you can jump. The fact that a weapon needs to actually physically connect with its target before an attack roll is even made (i.e., if you swing and your opponent jumps out of the way just in time, you dont even have a chance to hit).
Answer to second paragraph: This is exactly what im talking about. You will never understand any game if you can only base it on games that have come before. This game is not a blend of old ones, although if you go by what everyone collectively says on these forums the game sounds like a mix of GW, WoW, CoH, with maybe a bit of FFxi and SWG thrown in there. Hell, maybe we should just stop calling it DDO and just call it GWWoWCoHFFxiSWG. It is its own game, good or bad, stop all the comparing and stop trying to drag creative new games into your dull, repetitive world of tedious crap.
There is nothing new or innovative being down with DDO that hasn't been done before. You may not have seen the combat system in an MMO but there are hundreds of games that are just like it.
Combat system aside, the game feels like City of Heroes. Nothing but instanced combat, oh and the really, really fun smashing crates to get loot
Answer to the first paragraph: Hanging from ledges, smashing barrels, a jump skill that actually defines how high and far you can jump. The fact that a weapon needs to actually physically connect with its target before an attack roll is even made (i.e., if you swing and your opponent jumps out of the way just in time, you dont even have a chance to hit).
Answer to second paragraph: This is exactly what im talking about. You will never understand any game if you can only base it on games that have come before. This game is not a blend of old ones, although if you go by what everyone collectively says on these forums the game sounds like a mix of GW, WoW, CoH, with maybe a bit of FFxi and SWG thrown in there. Hell, maybe we should just stop calling it DDO and just call it GWWoWCoHFFxiSWG. It is its own game, good or bad, stop all the comparing and stop trying to drag creative new games into your dull, repetitive world of tedious crap.
AC1 has a jump skill that actually defines how high you can jump. They also have a run skill that defines how fast you can run. I can't tell you the name right off hand, but I am sure that there are games out there that you can smash barrels.
The fact that you have to hit before you can have a chance to hit is not that great of a thing. IMHO. As someone said in another thread... You have to hit twice to actually do damage. And that is not like PnP DnD. From what I remember, you roll to see if you hit, then roll damage, not roll to see if you hit, then roll to see if you did any damage, then roll your damage.
So, please explain what DDO has that no other game has come up with... The jump skill is definately out, AC had it years ago. In lots of games you can hang from ledges, andf smash barrels.
From what I remember, you roll to see if you hit, then roll damage, not roll to see if you hit, then roll to see if you did any damage, then roll your damage.
So, please explain what DDO has that no other game has come up with... The jump skill is definately out, AC had it years ago. In lots of games you can hang from ledges, andf smash barrels.
Allright, another example of ignorance and an inability to listen. There are not 2 rolls to hit, the first part is about what physical space your swing passes through. If a player cant get his weapon to pass through the enemy there are no rolls, so the beginning part is player skill, the second part is the roll to hit, which represents the chance that a swing hits the target, but bounces harmlesly off the opponents armor, or natural defence. Not many mmorpgs can boast about a combat system this intricate. But sure, to be fair, if you go through every game ever made you probably will see almost every aspect of this game at one point or another. But what game has the barrel breaking, jumping, swimming, ledge hanging, puzzle solving, character customization, and intricate combat of DDO? Just DDO. The ideas may be old, but the combination is new. If you still think that this game is the "same old crap" then go make your own game, see if you can make a feature that has never been done. Once you do, just hop back on the forum and let me know, I will bow before you. Good luck.
I always thought, if you love dming and follow 100% of dnd rules to the letter, then you are probably better off playing NWN or NWN 2. It is the best I have seen.
If you love grouping and enjoy deep dungeons, and less grinding, DDO could be the same for you.
To be honest, soloing and grouping just don't mix well. CoH for the longest time had a problem like this where the support deal very little damage and the true damage dealers kill things so fast that they don't need support. So now you have people who need to group and people who don't and let me tell you, it does not work well.
I always thought the true spirit of mmorpg is to be able to group with other people, but if they make it such that some class can solo and others can't, then it would be unfair to those that have to group whereas soloers have the option to join a group or be on their own. Things are even worse if they make it so that the support actually need the soloers to do damage. To me, people who have to group are usually extremely specialized, they heal/buff/tank, but lack some aspects to be able to solo. On the other hand, soloers are usually more well-rounded that they don't have to get help. So now you are creating two catagories, people who are specialized and people who aren't. That just doesn't work, either everyone specialize or no one does, but if no one does and everyone is a soloer, then why make a mmorpg.
A lot of other negative opinions toward the game resides on how dnd is implmeneted as an online game, but one has to realize some stuff just doens't work in online game such as the ability to pause the game...imagine that, heh.
Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon From what I remember, you roll to see if you hit, then roll damage, not roll to see if you hit, then roll to see if you did any damage, then roll your damage. So, please explain what DDO has that no other game has come up with... The jump skill is definately out, AC had it years ago. In lots of games you can hang from ledges, andf smash barrels.
Allright, another example of ignorance and an inability to listen. There are not 2 rolls to hit, the first part is about what physical space your swing passes through. If a player cant get his weapon to pass through the enemy there are no rolls, so the beginning part is player skill, the second part is the roll to hit, which represents the chance that a swing hits the target, but bounces harmlesly off the opponents armor, or natural defence. Not many mmorpgs can boast about a combat system this intricate. But sure, to be fair, if you go through every game ever made you probably will see almost every aspect of this game at one point or another. But what game has the barrel breaking, jumping, swimming, ledge hanging, puzzle solving, character customization, and intricate combat of DDO? Just DDO. The ideas may be old, but the combination is new. If you still think that this game is the "same old crap" then go make your own game, see if you can make a feature that has never been done. Once you do, just hop back on the forum and let me know, I will bow before you. Good luck.
First off, I resent being called ignorant just because I do not agree with you.
No there are not two rolls to see if you hit. the first is just a check. And how do they check to see if you hit the target? It may not be a random number generated by an RNG, but it is still a chance to miss. Call it what you want, we are after all just argueing semantics here. The fact is that there are two checks to see if you do any damage.
If I remember in DnD, your AC was a combination of several factors. Not just the armor you were wearing. Your Dex, for example, was taking into consideration.
All MMORPGs have basically the same combat system. Some, like DDO, just make you go through a few extra steps.
I am not a programmer. So i cannot make something new to bring to a game. I never said I could.
The only "New" thing they did was combine a bunch of ideas into the same game.
I will admit to one thing they have done that I have not seen before... The more times you enter an instance before you complete it, the less exp you get for finishing it. That I have not seen before.
Yeah, i'm seeing no difference between this and Neverwinter Nights except NWN has no monthly fee. I was excited when i first heard about this game, but now its looking watered down. I don't see much of a community starting and its gonna be difficult to meet people ingame to adventure with. I really wanted to try my hands at being a thief too . I may just buy Neverwinter Nights 2 to get my D&D fix and save myself the trouble of trying this game out. Just doesnt look like a true MMORPG. I'm not hearing anything positive.
I don't know if you tried the beta yet GungaDin, but I suppose you havn't. I actually think your reaction is normal, and that is, because you read a lot of half-truths, and fears about DDO. These forums, the things that are posted anyways, drive people away. I have already presented my opinion many times, I will not post them again, however, I experienced the game firsta hand, and I can assure you, that finding new friends is very easy, easier than in any other MMO, and I played my share of MMOs. I love nwn, it is my favourite rpg, the best created, but DDO will have a different unique feel about it, it is unfair to compare it to nwn.
Now that I have tried it my conclusion is that the OP is wrong in almost all aspects, and thoose he got right are reasons WHY I am getting it.
In the short time I played I met 3 people I still have contact with, even after the stress is over, and that was with a LFG system that was not even working 100% at the moment.
That consists of about 20% of all people I have met inside an MMO and talked to outside of it, during the course of 6 years, and that happened in 6 days.
The dungeons is a marvel in all respects, they are however static but to get the choice between cruddy dynamic and flat out awesome static the choice is easy.
And for someone like me who can get lost while walking to the store they supply endless replayability.
The action paced combat do make it a bit diablo style hack and slash, at least up front, the higher your level and quests, the more planning and tactics will be required to complete it.
Not since early AO beta days have I been this hyped about a game, and lets leave the fact that AO launch was not pretty out of it..
There are many aspects of the system I do not like or feel are not finnished, but to me I do not see any way at all they could have gotten closer to the PnP feeling.
Just me though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow, quite a thread that evolved here. but i have to agree with the original poster - if there is too much instancing, then it's just not the same as a typical, "old-fashioned" mmo. seems to me that turbine is going 2 ways: mucho instances with ddo. some with lotro.
i understand if people think that gw is not ddo (or vice versa), but in gw i do feel quite lonely. i don't complain too much though, since there is no monthly fee.
swg is different, only a few instance dungeons. same as in wow. i prefer it the way these 2 games handle it. as for ddo, well, since the idea is that you need a balanced 3-6 or 8 player group anyway when you start, i guess it doesn't matter, or is actually better if most dungeons are instanced there. it's just not for me i think, as much as i have been looking forward to ddo. if there is no decent rpg in the city... i don't know. why bother with a montly fee based mmorpg? think someone here mentioned nwn.
maybe we should wait and see until the game is out. some people complaining already now don't really know what is going on in ddo. and if they do, then they have to careful not to breach an existing nda and should consider that the game so far is still in beta.
Originally posted by Rattrap First of all let me adress the issue of instancing. I know DDO promises to have realy meaningfull missions but some resemblances with Guild Wars exist. Most of all completely instanced world. - While 100% instanced world can prove to be a way to enjoy the game without interference of other players it also does quite the opposite. Namely it hinders you in meeting other players and experiencing the thing MMORPG are all about - player interaction. What GW offered us and now DDO is trying to offer is nothing more than a network game. In case of DDO network game with clever dungeons - but in fact I trully doubt that dungeons will be even 10% of let say Baldurs Gate quality. And Baldurs Gate (i know it is old game now) gives you completely same option of networking play together with your friends. Nothing justifying the monthly fee. And note that i say - with your FRIENDS . Because both GW and DDO due to heavy instancing make it imposible to meet other people online and form new friendships. Basically if you have group of buddies you play with regulary the game is good , otherway it is bad. Tipical scene from guildwars : You stand in one of many shared world areas. And shout " W/M lvl 20 LFG Tyrra balls murder " - Now this is a total roleplay killer and miserable way to go trough any game , but it is what full instance offers. .. After 10 minutes of yelling you get your random group , half of them dont speak english , other half knows only to say " GO GO GO !!! " or " You kn0 t mishn ?". Once you enter the instance the group rushes any opponent acting like mindless zerg. And than 2 of them quit half way in mission and you have to cancel. On the end if you ever reach the mission goal people force you to skip the cutscene movie (wich is only fun and RP part of the game) and on the end tell you finall "GG" and leave. In all 5 months of my GW experience i never made one friendship or ever EVER EVER noticed anything resembling roleplay. In Warcraft however with all its kiddies and camping - i encountered 100% more roleplay , made tons of friends and enemies , and gennerally had more fun watching people run around. In one word instancing is good if there are some instanced missions in the game. Total instanced world is a SCAM . And should be treated as anyother network play game - withouth monthly fee. - Second thing about DDO is the action based combat. It is sure fun and good thing. But let me assure you - none of D&D fans are actually looking for action combat. What we are looking is all skills, races, classes, feats and spells implemented in a way that resembles D&D gameplay >>> Not few skills, races and classes implemented in a way that resembles LEGEND of ZELDA gameplay !!! D&D online game should be serious and adhere to 3.5 D&D rules that by the way were written with online computer gaming in mind. - So finnaly they said the strenght of DDO is in the dungeons. But i am hearing some betatesters complaining about boring dungeons .... So what is this game all about ? And who are its target audience ? Certanlly not D&D fans
Actually I think the unsuspecting or unknowing D&D fans are the real target. Just a thought.
Originally posted by Umbrood There are many aspects of the system I do not like or feel are not finnished, but to me I do not see any way at all they could have gotten closer to the PnP feeling.
Alpha, beta, stress test... and nothing has improved.
It's only D&D in Title and not in actions.
Can't just run off and explore in the woods or mountains... do those even exist outside of an instance?
Can't just decide to camp where you are and rest. I mean how many times in your D&D games did you hole up in a dungeon or somewhere in the woods to rest and recoop spells and health? Yeah you can rest in the "rest area" in the dungeon ONCE but uh... that's not enough.
I hate the combat system. I want my character to fight for me. If I choose a elven fighter I want his skills to be used to fight... his dex, str, con and class abilities should make him hard to hit ... not me running around in circles repeatedly wacking the mouse buttons to hit.
I certainly won't be paying for this game and not a single person in our "D&D" circle is planning on it either.
Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon Originally posted by OgrebumOriginally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon From what I remember, you roll to see if you hit, then roll damage, not roll to see if you hit, then roll to see if you did any damage, then roll your damage. So, please explain what DDO has that no other game has come up with... The jump skill is definately out, AC had it years ago. In lots of games you can hang from ledges, andf smash barrels.
Allright, another example of ignorance and an inability to listen. There are not 2 rolls to hit, the first part is about what physical space your swing passes through. If a player cant get his weapon to pass through the enemy there are no rolls, so the beginning part is player skill, the second part is the roll to hit, which represents the chance that a swing hits the target, but bounces harmlesly off the opponents armor, or natural defence. Not many mmorpgs can boast about a combat system this intricate. But sure, to be fair, if you go through every game ever made you probably will see almost every aspect of this game at one point or another. But what game has the barrel breaking, jumping, swimming, ledge hanging, puzzle solving, character customization, and intricate combat of DDO? Just DDO. The ideas may be old, but the combination is new. If you still think that this game is the "same old crap" then go make your own game, see if you can make a feature that has never been done. Once you do, just hop back on the forum and let me know, I will bow before you. Good luck.First off, I resent being called ignorant just because I do not agree with you. No there are not two rolls to see if you hit. the first is just a check. And how do they check to see if you hit the target? It may not be a random number generated by an RNG, but it is still a chance to miss. Call it what you want, we are after all just argueing semantics here. The fact is that there are two checks to see if you do any damage. If I remember in DnD, your AC was a combination of several factors. Not just the armor you were wearing. Your Dex, for example, was taking into consideration. All MMORPGs have basically the same combat system. Some, like DDO, just make you go through a few extra steps. I am not a programmer. So i cannot make something new to bring to a game. I never said I could. The only "New" thing they did was combine a bunch of ideas into the same game. I will admit to one thing they have done that I have not seen before... The more times you enter an instance before you complete it, the less exp you get for finishing it. That I have not seen before.
There is nothing random about the check to see if you hit a monster or not. It is based on range. Each mob has a hit box, each weapon has a striking range. If your character is within striking range of the mob and you are facing it the game will make an attack roll, if you are standing 10 feet away from the mob and your weapon only has a striking range of 7 feet, then it will not bother with the attack roll. It's a mechanism to not waste the time sending data to and from the server if it is not necessary and to reduce the effect of high latency.
Originally posted by Rattrap First of all let me adress the issue of instancing. I know DDO promises to have realy meaningfull missions but some resemblances with Guild Wars exist. Most of all completely instanced world.- While 100% instanced world can prove to be a way to enjoy the game without interference of other players it also does quite the opposite. Namely it hinders you in meeting other players and experiencing the thing MMORPG are all about - player interaction. What GW offered us and now DDO is trying to offer is nothing more than a network game. In case of DDO network game with clever dungeons - but in fact I trully doubt that dungeons will be even 10% of let say Baldurs Gate quality. And Baldurs Gate (i know it is old game now) gives you completely same option of networking play together with your friends. Nothing justifying the monthly fee. And note that i say - with your FRIENDS . Because both GW and DDO due to heavy instancing make it imposible to meet other people online and form new friendships. Basically if you have group of buddies you play with regulary the game is good , otherway it is bad. Tipical scene from guildwars : You stand in one of many shared world areas. And shout " W/M lvl 20 LFG Tyrra balls murder " - Now this is a total roleplay killer and miserable way to go trough any game , but it is what full instance offers. .. After 10 minutes of yelling you get your random group , half of them dont speak english , other half knows only to say " GO GO GO !!! " or " You kn0 t mishn ?". Once you enter the instance the group rushes any opponent acting like mindless zerg. And than 2 of them quit half way in mission and you have to cancel. On the end if you ever reach the mission goal people force you to skip the cutscene movie (wich is only fun and RP part of the game) and on the end tell you finall "GG" and leave. In all 5 months of my GW experience i never made one friendship or ever EVER EVER noticed anything resembling roleplay. In Warcraft however with all its kiddies and camping - i encountered 100% more roleplay , made tons of friends and enemies , and gennerally had more fun watching people run around.In one word instancing is good if there are some instanced missions in the game. Total instanced world is a SCAM . And should be treated as anyother network play game - withouth monthly fee.- Second thing about DDO is the action based combat. It is sure fun and good thing. But let me assure you - none of D&D fans are actually looking for action combat.What we are looking is all skills, races, classes, feats and spells implemented in a way that resembles D&D gameplay >>> Not few skills, races and classes implemented in a way that resembles LEGEND of ZELDA gameplay !!!D&D online game should be serious and adhere to 3.5 D&D rules that by the way were written with online computer gaming in mind.- So finnaly they said the strenght of DDO is in the dungeons. But i am hearing some betatesters complaining about boring dungeons .... So what is this game all about ? And who are its target audience ? Certanlly not D&D fans
Wow... I had almost the exact oppsite experiences that you did.
I started playing GW with the intention of RPing and starting my own guild. I went into the game with no friends, and knowing almost nothing about the game itself.
When I had the storyline missions to do, I would stand there for (maybe) 10 minutes, but instead of shouting "5W/M LFG" I took the story instride and said something like...
"My fellow warriors! The king has called upon us to put a stop to these evil beasts that have beset our kingdom! Who will join me in returning our captive comrades and driving away these vilest of creatures?"
etc... and it worked! I found groups (relatively) fast, and not only that, I found RPers!
Also, in a random encounter in Yak's Bend, I replied in character to someone's offer of a trade. The other person was surprised and RPed back. I've been friends with them ever since, and we went on to make the biggest GW RP assosiation out there. And we arranged the weekly RP meet and greets that usually had hundreds of participants. My friend list was always full of RPers, and my guild grew quite quick.
Moving on to DDO... well, my experience during the stress test was much the same, minus RPing. I didn't find the RPers till towards the end, but thats because everyone wanted to test out the game and see what it was like rather then banter at an Inn or what-not, but I did find them. Not only that, but we're going to get together after release as well.
I'm not exactally a fan of the entirely instanced world, but thats because I think it takes the "massive" out of MMO. RPG and friendships depend on the players. All it takes it being in the right place at the right time once, because as soon as you're not alone, you get the encouragement to keep going. Besides, the zones in DDO are different from GW in enough of a way that it DOES make a difference. I almost never paid attention to the instance I was in, because it always had what I needed. In fact, I think I only INTENTIONALLY changed instances once. Otherwise, I completely ignored it.
Originally posted by Celestian Alpha, beta, stress test... and nothing has improved.It's only D&D in Title and not in actions.Can't just run off and explore in the woods or mountains... do those even exist outside of an instance?Can't just decide to camp where you are and rest. I mean how many times in your D&D games did you hole up in a dungeon or somewhere in the woods to rest and recoop spells and health? Yeah you can rest in the "rest area" in the dungeon ONCE but uh... that's not enough.I hate the combat system. I want my character to fight for me. If I choose a elven fighter I want his skills to be used to fight... his dex, str, con and class abilities should make him hard to hit ... not me running around in circles repeatedly wacking the mouse buttons to hit.I certainly won't be paying for this game and not a single person in our "D&D" circle is planning on it either.
I have not been in many situations where my party had used all rest shrines and was out of sp, the few that I was in the reason was usually because one or more of the players f'ed up and did something stupid. Quite often the groups I've joined (all pick-up groups btw) have finished the quests with either 1 or more rest shrines still unused. If you are always having that problem then you need to play smarter, not circle strafing would be a good start, especially after the latest patch. And honestly if you want to stick with the "click button and go make a sandwich" combat style then stick with WoW, that game excels at holding your hand through the game. I for one prefer NOT to be bored to tears while playing.
Originally posted by Ogrebum Answer to the first paragraph: Hanging from ledges, smashing barrels, a jump skill that actually defines how high and far you can jump. The fact that a weapon needs to actually physically connect with its target before an attack roll is even made (i.e., if you swing and your opponent jumps out of the way just in time, you dont even have a chance to hit). Tomb Raider had all of this. "But that's not an MMO" you say. Well okay, if I take Tomb Raider make it multi-player, slap an MMORPG label on it, and make you pay $15 a month, does that make me an innovative genius? As I've said before, making me pay for a single player game is not my idea of innovation. Answer to second paragraph: This is exactly what im talking about. You will never understand any game if you can only base it on games that have come before. This game is not a blend of old ones, although if you go by what everyone collectively says on these forums the game sounds like a mix of GW, WoW, CoH, with maybe a bit of FFxi and SWG thrown in there. Hell, maybe we should just stop calling it DDO and just call it GWWoWCoHFFxiSWG. It is its own game, good or bad, stop all the comparing and stop trying to drag creative new games into your dull, repetitive world of tedious crap. I've played DDO, and I've played City of Heroes. I'm telling you the two feel very similar to me. It's not some comparison I'm coming up with based on descriptions. It comes from playing both games.
Minsc, As far as Monk and Druid have "the most complex abilites", what does a Monk have at level 10 that another class doesn't have? Monks don't get anything really freaky unitl around 16th level, and even that Turbine has left so many abilites off the other classes they could just leave Wilting Touch (or what ever it's called) off too. Same with Druid. What odd abilites does a Druid have? Just leave out wild shape.
Now explain why races were left off? Half-Elf? They have weird abilities too?
No Turbine just didn't have the funds to do the game the way it should have been done, and it is suffering for it.
I have not been in many situations where my party had used all rest shrines and was out of sp, the few that I was in the reason was usually because one or more of the players f'ed up and did something stupid. Quite often the groups I've joined (all pick-up groups btw) have finished the quests with either 1 or more rest shrines still unused. If you are always having that problem then you need to play smarter, not circle strafing would be a good start, especially after the latest patch. And honestly if you want to stick with the "click button and go make a sandwich" combat style then stick with WoW, that game excels at holding your hand through the game. I for one prefer NOT to be bored to tears while playing. [/b][/quote]
You must not have gotten very far if you haven't had rest shrine issues.
You can make snide comments about hit a button and fight hand holding but get this, thats what D&D was. All the player did was roll dice and depend on the characters abilities to win the fight + luck of the dice.
At no time did I have to jump on the table and defend myself from a enraged orc warrior.
I notice how you totally ignored the fact there is absolutely 0 exploration in this game also.
This is suppose to be D&D and it's not except in name. No exp cept for quests completed? Thats crap. No exploration of surrounding woodlands or mountains? Wow, if you never did that then I suspect you never played D&D.
I expect much more from my games than running around in circles and clicking the mouse button to attack. If I wanted that I'd go back to diablo or an FPS. I want a entertaining game and DDO is so far from that.
I prefer my challenges to be the adventure, not the mad clicking running around and trying to atticipate a monsters attack. I can go play Lord of the Rings on the ps2 if I want mad clicking and button mashing.
And btw, WoW's combat is more than auto-attack but if you ever played it you'd know that. If DDO's system was even remotely on par with WoW, EQ2 or EQ1s combat system it'd be 10 times better... instead we get this console'ish game with a crappy rip off of the D&D name.
The game is empty, lacks any soul and feels nothing like any PnP game I ever played. NWN is much more D&D than this travisty. I really was hoping for a good D&D online game but this certainly isn't it and when it's released so will just about everyone else.
There is nothing random about the check to see if you hit a monster or not. It is based on range. Each mob has a hit box, each weapon has a striking range. If your character is within striking range of the mob and you are facing it the game will make an attack roll, if you are standing 10 feet away from the mob and your weapon only has a striking range of 7 feet, then it will not bother with the attack roll. It's a mechanism to not waste the time sending data to and from the server if it is not necessary and to reduce the effect of high latency.
This is the same as every other game out there. Except they put it all in one roll. If you are too far away, you miss... As in every other game, if you have a weapon that has a range of 7 feet and you are 10 feet away you miss. You still send data to and from the server on a constant basis. and it does nothing to reduce high latency, it may even cause more because you are constantly clicking the mouse button and sending that data to and from the server.
Originally posted by Celestian You must not have gotten very far if you haven't had rest shrine issues.
I don't know...would you consider level 7 quests very far?
You can make snide comments about hit a button and fight hand holding but get this, thats what D&D was. All the player did was roll dice and depend on the characters abilities to win the fight + luck of the dice. At no time did I have to jump on the table and defend myself from a enraged orc warrior.
I'm sorry combat was so bland in your PnP but that is NOT what combat in my PnP sessions were like. D&D is about using all your skills available to overcome obstacles put in front of you. We don't have the luxury of having a live DM for every player on the server so we're just gonna have to live with a few limitations.
I notice how you totally ignored the fact there is absolutely 0 exploration in this game also.This is suppose to be D&D and it's not except in name. No exp cept for quests completed? Thats crap. No exploration of surrounding woodlands or mountains? Wow, if you never did that then I suspect you never played D&D.I expect much more from my games than running around in circles and clicking the mouse button to attack. If I wanted that I'd go back to diablo or an FPS. I want a entertaining game and DDO is so far from that.
No actually when our group had a purpose we didn't tend to wander around aimlessly. We tended to head to where we were supposed to go and only stopped when forced to by random encounters. See that band of orcs probably isn't going to just wait around for you to arrive before sacking that small village.
I prefer my challenges to be the adventure, not the mad clicking running around and trying to atticipate a monsters attack. I can go play Lord of the Rings on the ps2 if I want mad clicking and button mashing.
Me too and after the first 3 or 4 levels if that's all you are doing of course you're going to have problems.
And btw, WoW's combat is more than auto-attack but if you ever played it you'd know that. If DDO's system was even remotely on par with WoW, EQ2 or EQ1s combat system it'd be 10 times better... instead we get this console'ish game with a crappy rip off of the D&D name.
Oh...I guess since I haven't played WoW I don't have a level 60 Warlock now do I. I've played it and yes it is the standard cookie cutter combat as in other MMO's. Spamming Shadowbolt nonstop in MC takes absolutely NO SKILL.
The game is empty, lacks any soul and feels nothing like any PnP game I ever played. NWN is much more D&D than this travisty. I really was hoping for a good D&D online game but this certainly isn't it and when it's released so will just about everyone else.
All CRPG's are going to feel empty compared to your PnP experience. You're expecting the impossible. Get over that and you'll have far less stress. Either way, they have made their decision and there is no changing it now. If you don't like the game don't play it. Many don't and won't, many do and will. Personally I love CRPG's so I'll be getting DDO, NWN2 and oblivion. Either way in the end I win.
Originally posted by Celestian You must not have gotten very far if you haven't had rest shrine issues.
I don't know...would you consider level 7 quests very far?
You can make snide comments about hit a button and fight hand holding but get this, thats what D&D was. All the player did was roll dice and depend on the characters abilities to win the fight + luck of the dice.
At no time did I have to jump on the table and defend myself from a enraged orc warrior.
I'm sorry combat was so bland in your PnP but that is NOT what combat in my PnP sessions were like. D&D is about using all your skills available to overcome obstacles put in front of you. We don't have the luxury of having a live DM for every player on the server so we're just gonna have to live with a few limitations.
I notice how you totally ignored the fact there is absolutely 0 exploration in this game also.
This is suppose to be D&D and it's not except in name. No exp cept for quests completed? Thats crap. No exploration of surrounding woodlands or mountains? Wow, if you never did that then I suspect you never played D&D. I expect much more from my games than running around in circles and clicking the mouse button to attack. If I wanted that I'd go back to diablo or an FPS. I want a entertaining game and DDO is so far from that.
No actually when our group had a purpose we didn't tend to wander around aimlessly. We tended to head to where we were supposed to go and only stopped when forced to by random encounters. See that band of orcs probably isn't going to just wait around for you to arrive before sacking that small village.
I prefer my challenges to be the adventure, not the mad clicking running around and trying to atticipate a monsters attack. I can go play Lord of the Rings on the ps2 if I want mad clicking and button mashing.
Me too and after the first 3 or 4 levels if that's all you are doing of course you're going to have problems.
And btw, WoW's combat is more than auto-attack but if you ever played it you'd know that. If DDO's system was even remotely on par with WoW, EQ2 or EQ1s combat system it'd be 10 times better... instead we get this console'ish game with a crappy rip off of the D&D name.
Oh...I guess since I haven't played WoW I don't have a level 60 Warlock now do I. I've played it and yes it is the standard cookie cutter combat as in other MMO's. Spamming Shadowbolt nonstop in MC takes absolutely NO SKILL.
The game is empty, lacks any soul and feels nothing like any PnP game I ever played. NWN is much more D&D than this travisty. I really was hoping for a good D&D online game but this certainly isn't it and when it's released so will just about everyone else.
All CRPG's are going to feel empty compared to your PnP experience. You're expecting the impossible. Get over that and you'll have far less stress. Either way, they have made their decision and there is no changing it now. If you don't like the game don't play it. Many don't and won't, many do and will. Personally I love CRPG's so I'll be getting DDO, NWN2 and oblivion. Either way in the end I win.
Quick question Minsc... How long did it take you to get to doing level 7 quests? A week, two weeks a month? And at what level was your character at when you were doing level 7 quests?
2 weeks to start doing level 7 quests, and my character was halfway to level 5, but there are a bunch of things that still need tweaking in the quests to adjust the difficulty level. Remember it's BETA and not a finished game. The last patch already drastically reduced the effectiveness of circle-strafing to the point of being almost useless and there are further improvements to combat in the works.
Remember the game is still beta so there is a lot of tweeking to do.
Originally posted by Minsc 2 weeks to start doing level 7 quests, and my character was halfway to level 5, but there are a bunch of things that still need tweaking in the quests to adjust the difficulty level. Remember it's BETA and not a finished game. The last patch already drastically reduced the effectiveness of circle-strafing to the point of being almost useless and there are further improvements to combat in the works. Remember the game is still beta so there is a lot of tweeking to do.
Now this scares me... In 2 weeks you were doing level 7 quests and half way to level 5. Given the fact that quests get tougher as you advance in level, how long would it take you to get to end game? 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks? What scares me is you will have all of these power gamers reaching hte top level very quickly and then start crying for stuff to do. And like Turbine did before, they will start working on high level stuff and forget about the low level stuff.
Either 10 levels is not enough, or they need to make a lot more quests and create more time between levels.
Originally posted by Minsc 2 weeks to start doing level 7 quests, and my character was halfway to level 5, but there are a bunch of things that still need tweaking in the quests to adjust the difficulty level. Remember it's BETA and not a finished game. The last patch already drastically reduced the effectiveness of circle-strafing to the point of being almost useless and there are further improvements to combat in the works.Remember the game is still beta so there is a lot of tweeking to do.
Still in beta? it's coming out next month. The game is not going to change enough to make it acceptable.
I love how people crow "it's beta" well it's been the same since alpha and I'm not talking about bugs I am talking about the direction of the game and the retarded way they decided to create this so called online D&D game.
Bugs are one thing, the way the game works is another. That will NOT change anytime soon.
Enjoy the game if you enjoy it now, while you can because if the game doesn't go through massive changes it will flop faster than AC2 did.
...As to you and your WoW warlock, if all you did was shadowbolt then you must be one sad warlock. You had more than one skill.
Comments
There is nothing new or innovative being down with DDO that hasn't been done before. You may not have seen the combat system in an MMO but there are hundreds of games that are just like it.
Combat system aside, the game feels like City of Heroes. Nothing but instanced combat, oh and the really, really fun smashing crates to get loot
Answer to the first paragraph: Hanging from ledges, smashing barrels, a jump skill that actually defines how high and far you can jump. The fact that a weapon needs to actually physically connect with its target before an attack roll is even made (i.e., if you swing and your opponent jumps out of the way just in time, you dont even have a chance to hit).
Answer to second paragraph: This is exactly what im talking about. You will never understand any game if you can only base it on games that have come before. This game is not a blend of old ones, although if you go by what everyone collectively says on these forums the game sounds like a mix of GW, WoW, CoH, with maybe a bit of FFxi and SWG thrown in there. Hell, maybe we should just stop calling it DDO and just call it GWWoWCoHFFxiSWG. It is its own game, good or bad, stop all the comparing and stop trying to drag creative new games into your dull, repetitive world of tedious crap.
There is nothing new or innovative being down with DDO that hasn't been done before. You may not have seen the combat system in an MMO but there are hundreds of games that are just like it.
Combat system aside, the game feels like City of Heroes. Nothing but instanced combat, oh and the really, really fun smashing crates to get loot
Answer to the first paragraph: Hanging from ledges, smashing barrels, a jump skill that actually defines how high and far you can jump. The fact that a weapon needs to actually physically connect with its target before an attack roll is even made (i.e., if you swing and your opponent jumps out of the way just in time, you dont even have a chance to hit).
Answer to second paragraph: This is exactly what im talking about. You will never understand any game if you can only base it on games that have come before. This game is not a blend of old ones, although if you go by what everyone collectively says on these forums the game sounds like a mix of GW, WoW, CoH, with maybe a bit of FFxi and SWG thrown in there. Hell, maybe we should just stop calling it DDO and just call it GWWoWCoHFFxiSWG. It is its own game, good or bad, stop all the comparing and stop trying to drag creative new games into your dull, repetitive world of tedious crap.
AC1 has a jump skill that actually defines how high you can jump. They also have a run skill that defines how fast you can run. I can't tell you the name right off hand, but I am sure that there are games out there that you can smash barrels.
The fact that you have to hit before you can have a chance to hit is not that great of a thing. IMHO. As someone said in another thread... You have to hit twice to actually do damage. And that is not like PnP DnD. From what I remember, you roll to see if you hit, then roll damage, not roll to see if you hit, then roll to see if you did any damage, then roll your damage.
So, please explain what DDO has that no other game has come up with... The jump skill is definately out, AC had it years ago. In lots of games you can hang from ledges, andf smash barrels.
I always thought, if you love dming and follow 100% of dnd rules to the letter, then you are probably better off playing NWN or NWN 2. It is the best I have seen.
If you love grouping and enjoy deep dungeons, and less grinding, DDO could be the same for you.
To be honest, soloing and grouping just don't mix well. CoH for the longest time had a problem like this where the support deal very little damage and the true damage dealers kill things so fast that they don't need support. So now you have people who need to group and people who don't and let me tell you, it does not work well.
I always thought the true spirit of mmorpg is to be able to group with other people, but if they make it such that some class can solo and others can't, then it would be unfair to those that have to group whereas soloers have the option to join a group or be on their own. Things are even worse if they make it so that the support actually need the soloers to do damage. To me, people who have to group are usually extremely specialized, they heal/buff/tank, but lack some aspects to be able to solo. On the other hand, soloers are usually more well-rounded that they don't have to get help. So now you are creating two catagories, people who are specialized and people who aren't. That just doesn't work, either everyone specialize or no one does, but if no one does and everyone is a soloer, then why make a mmorpg.
A lot of other negative opinions toward the game resides on how dnd is implmeneted as an online game, but one has to realize some stuff just doens't work in online game such as the ability to pause the game...imagine that, heh.
First off, I resent being called ignorant just because I do not agree with you.
No there are not two rolls to see if you hit. the first is just a check. And how do they check to see if you hit the target? It may not be a random number generated by an RNG, but it is still a chance to miss. Call it what you want, we are after all just argueing semantics here. The fact is that there are two checks to see if you do any damage.
If I remember in DnD, your AC was a combination of several factors. Not just the armor you were wearing. Your Dex, for example, was taking into consideration.
All MMORPGs have basically the same combat system. Some, like DDO, just make you go through a few extra steps.
I am not a programmer. So i cannot make something new to bring to a game. I never said I could.
The only "New" thing they did was combine a bunch of ideas into the same game.
I will admit to one thing they have done that I have not seen before... The more times you enter an instance before you complete it, the less exp you get for finishing it. That I have not seen before.
Now that I have tried it my conclusion is that the OP is wrong in almost all aspects, and thoose he got right are reasons WHY I am getting it.
In the short time I played I met 3 people I still have contact with, even after the stress is over, and that was with a LFG system that was not even working 100% at the moment.
That consists of about 20% of all people I have met inside an MMO and talked to outside of it, during the course of 6 years, and that happened in 6 days.
The dungeons is a marvel in all respects, they are however static but to get the choice between cruddy dynamic and flat out awesome static the choice is easy.
And for someone like me who can get lost while walking to the store they supply endless replayability.
The action paced combat do make it a bit diablo style hack and slash, at least up front, the higher your level and quests, the more planning and tactics will be required to complete it.
Not since early AO beta days have I been this hyped about a game, and lets leave the fact that AO launch was not pretty out of it..
There are many aspects of the system I do not like or feel are not finnished, but to me I do not see any way at all they could have gotten closer to the PnP feeling.
Just me though.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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wow, quite a thread that evolved here. but i have to agree with the original poster - if there is too much instancing, then it's just not the same as a typical, "old-fashioned" mmo.
seems to me that turbine is going 2 ways:
mucho instances with ddo.
some with lotro.
i understand if people think that gw is not ddo (or vice versa), but in gw i do feel quite lonely. i don't complain too much though, since there is no monthly fee.
swg is different, only a few instance dungeons. same as in wow. i prefer it the way these 2 games handle it. as for ddo, well, since the idea is that you need a balanced 3-6 or 8 player group anyway when you start, i guess it doesn't matter, or is actually better if most dungeons are instanced there. it's just not for me i think, as much as i have been looking forward to ddo. if there is no decent rpg in the city... i don't know. why bother with a montly fee based mmorpg? think someone here mentioned nwn.
maybe we should wait and see until the game is out. some people complaining already now don't really know what is going on in ddo. and if they do, then they have to careful not to breach an existing nda and should consider that the game so far is still in beta.
my 5 cents, just before dinner
Actually I think the unsuspecting or unknowing D&D fans are the real target. Just a thought.
He said the PnP feeling not the PnP rules. I understood what he meant by it and I agree.
Alpha, beta, stress test... and nothing has improved.
It's only D&D in Title and not in actions.
Can't just run off and explore in the woods or mountains... do those even exist outside of an instance?
Can't just decide to camp where you are and rest. I mean how many times in your D&D games did you hole up in a dungeon or somewhere in the woods to rest and recoop spells and health? Yeah you can rest in the "rest area" in the dungeon ONCE but uh... that's not enough.
I hate the combat system. I want my character to fight for me. If I choose a elven fighter I want his skills to be used to fight... his dex, str, con and class abilities should make him hard to hit ... not me running around in circles repeatedly wacking the mouse buttons to hit.
I certainly won't be paying for this game and not a single person in our "D&D" circle is planning on it either.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
There is nothing random about the check to see if you hit a monster or not. It is based on range. Each mob has a hit box, each weapon has a striking range. If your character is within striking range of the mob and you are facing it the game will make an attack roll, if you are standing 10 feet away from the mob and your weapon only has a striking range of 7 feet, then it will not bother with the attack roll. It's a mechanism to not waste the time sending data to and from the server if it is not necessary and to reduce the effect of high latency.
Wow... I had almost the exact oppsite experiences that you did.
I started playing GW with the intention of RPing and starting my own guild. I went into the game with no friends, and knowing almost nothing about the game itself.
When I had the storyline missions to do, I would stand there for (maybe) 10 minutes, but instead of shouting "5W/M LFG" I took the story instride and said something like...
"My fellow warriors! The king has called upon us to put a stop to these evil beasts that have beset our kingdom! Who will join me in returning our captive comrades and driving away these vilest of creatures?"
etc... and it worked! I found groups (relatively) fast, and not only that, I found RPers!
Also, in a random encounter in Yak's Bend, I replied in character to someone's offer of a trade. The other person was surprised and RPed back. I've been friends with them ever since, and we went on to make the biggest GW RP assosiation out there. And we arranged the weekly RP meet and greets that usually had hundreds of participants. My friend list was always full of RPers, and my guild grew quite quick.
Moving on to DDO... well, my experience during the stress test was much the same, minus RPing. I didn't find the RPers till towards the end, but thats because everyone wanted to test out the game and see what it was like rather then banter at an Inn or what-not, but I did find them. Not only that, but we're going to get together after release as well.
I'm not exactally a fan of the entirely instanced world, but thats because I think it takes the "massive" out of MMO. RPG and friendships depend on the players. All it takes it being in the right place at the right time once, because as soon as you're not alone, you get the encouragement to keep going. Besides, the zones in DDO are different from GW in enough of a way that it DOES make a difference. I almost never paid attention to the instance I was in, because it always had what I needed. In fact, I think I only INTENTIONALLY changed instances once. Otherwise, I completely ignored it.
Also, I like the smaller feel sometimes.
I have not been in many situations where my party had used all rest shrines and was out of sp, the few that I was in the reason was usually because one or more of the players f'ed up and did something stupid. Quite often the groups I've joined (all pick-up groups btw) have finished the quests with either 1 or more rest shrines still unused. If you are always having that problem then you need to play smarter, not circle strafing would be a good start, especially after the latest patch. And honestly if you want to stick with the "click button and go make a sandwich" combat style then stick with WoW, that game excels at holding your hand through the game. I for one prefer NOT to be bored to tears while playing.
Minsc,
As far as Monk and Druid have "the most complex abilites", what does a Monk have at level 10 that another class doesn't have? Monks don't get anything really freaky unitl around 16th level, and even that Turbine has left so many abilites off the other classes they could just leave Wilting Touch (or what ever it's called) off too. Same with Druid. What odd abilites does a Druid have? Just leave out wild shape.
Now explain why races were left off? Half-Elf? They have weird abilities too?
No Turbine just didn't have the funds to do the game the way it should have been done, and it is suffering for it.
[quote]Originally posted by Minsc
I have not been in many situations where my party had used all rest shrines and was out of sp, the few that I was in the reason was usually because one or more of the players f'ed up and did something stupid. Quite often the groups I've joined (all pick-up groups btw) have finished the quests with either 1 or more rest shrines still unused. If you are always having that problem then you need to play smarter, not circle strafing would be a good start, especially after the latest patch. And honestly if you want to stick with the "click button and go make a sandwich" combat style then stick with WoW, that game excels at holding your hand through the game. I for one prefer NOT to be bored to tears while playing.
[/b][/quote]
You must not have gotten very far if you haven't had rest shrine issues.
You can make snide comments about hit a button and fight hand holding but get this, thats what D&D was. All the player did was roll dice and depend on the characters abilities to win the fight + luck of the dice.
At no time did I have to jump on the table and defend myself from a enraged orc warrior.
I notice how you totally ignored the fact there is absolutely 0 exploration in this game also.
This is suppose to be D&D and it's not except in name. No exp cept for quests completed? Thats crap. No exploration of surrounding woodlands or mountains? Wow, if you never did that then I suspect you never played D&D.
I expect much more from my games than running around in circles and clicking the mouse button to attack. If I wanted that I'd go back to diablo or an FPS. I want a entertaining game and DDO is so far from that.
I prefer my challenges to be the adventure, not the mad clicking running around and trying to atticipate a monsters attack. I can go play Lord of the Rings on the ps2 if I want mad clicking and button mashing.
And btw, WoW's combat is more than auto-attack but if you ever played it you'd know that. If DDO's system was even remotely on par with WoW, EQ2 or EQ1s combat system it'd be 10 times better... instead we get this console'ish game with a crappy rip off of the D&D name.
The game is empty, lacks any soul and feels nothing like any PnP game I ever played. NWN is much more D&D than this travisty. I really was hoping for a good D&D online game but this certainly isn't it and when it's released so will just about everyone else.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
There is nothing random about the check to see if you hit a monster or not. It is based on range. Each mob has a hit box, each weapon has a striking range. If your character is within striking range of the mob and you are facing it the game will make an attack roll, if you are standing 10 feet away from the mob and your weapon only has a striking range of 7 feet, then it will not bother with the attack roll. It's a mechanism to not waste the time sending data to and from the server if it is not necessary and to reduce the effect of high latency.
This is the same as every other game out there. Except they put it all in one roll. If you are too far away, you miss... As in every other game, if you have a weapon that has a range of 7 feet and you are 10 feet away you miss. You still send data to and from the server on a constant basis. and it does nothing to reduce high latency, it may even cause more because you are constantly clicking the mouse button and sending that data to and from the server.
I don't know...would you consider level 7 quests very far?
I'm sorry combat was so bland in your PnP but that is NOT what combat in my PnP sessions were like. D&D is about using all your skills available to overcome obstacles put in front of you. We don't have the luxury of having a live DM for every player on the server so we're just gonna have to live with a few limitations.
No actually when our group had a purpose we didn't tend to wander around aimlessly. We tended to head to where we were supposed to go and only stopped when forced to by random encounters. See that band of orcs probably isn't going to just wait around for you to arrive before sacking that small village.
Me too and after the first 3 or 4 levels if that's all you are doing of course you're going to have problems.
Oh...I guess since I haven't played WoW I don't have a level 60 Warlock now do I. I've played it and yes it is the standard cookie cutter combat as in other MMO's. Spamming Shadowbolt nonstop in MC takes absolutely NO SKILL.
All CRPG's are going to feel empty compared to your PnP experience. You're expecting the impossible. Get over that and you'll have far less stress. Either way, they have made their decision and there is no changing it now. If you don't like the game don't play it. Many don't and won't, many do and will. Personally I love CRPG's so I'll be getting DDO, NWN2 and oblivion. Either way in the end I win.
I don't know...would you consider level 7 quests very far?
I'm sorry combat was so bland in your PnP but that is NOT what combat in my PnP sessions were like. D&D is about using all your skills available to overcome obstacles put in front of you. We don't have the luxury of having a live DM for every player on the server so we're just gonna have to live with a few limitations.
No actually when our group had a purpose we didn't tend to wander around aimlessly. We tended to head to where we were supposed to go and only stopped when forced to by random encounters. See that band of orcs probably isn't going to just wait around for you to arrive before sacking that small village.
Me too and after the first 3 or 4 levels if that's all you are doing of course you're going to have problems.
Oh...I guess since I haven't played WoW I don't have a level 60 Warlock now do I. I've played it and yes it is the standard cookie cutter combat as in other MMO's. Spamming Shadowbolt nonstop in MC takes absolutely NO SKILL.
All CRPG's are going to feel empty compared to your PnP experience. You're expecting the impossible. Get over that and you'll have far less stress. Either way, they have made their decision and there is no changing it now. If you don't like the game don't play it. Many don't and won't, many do and will. Personally I love CRPG's so I'll be getting DDO, NWN2 and oblivion. Either way in the end I win.
Quick question Minsc... How long did it take you to get to doing level 7 quests? A week, two weeks a month? And at what level was your character at when you were doing level 7 quests?
2 weeks to start doing level 7 quests, and my character was halfway to level 5, but there are a bunch of things that still need tweaking in the quests to adjust the difficulty level. Remember it's BETA and not a finished game. The last patch already drastically reduced the effectiveness of circle-strafing to the point of being almost useless and there are further improvements to combat in the works.
Remember the game is still beta so there is a lot of tweeking to do.
Now this scares me... In 2 weeks you were doing level 7 quests and half way to level 5. Given the fact that quests get tougher as you advance in level, how long would it take you to get to end game? 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks? What scares me is you will have all of these power gamers reaching hte top level very quickly and then start crying for stuff to do. And like Turbine did before, they will start working on high level stuff and forget about the low level stuff.
Either 10 levels is not enough, or they need to make a lot more quests and create more time between levels.
Still in beta? it's coming out next month. The game is not going to change enough to make it acceptable.
I love how people crow "it's beta" well it's been the same since alpha and I'm not talking about bugs I am talking about the direction of the game and the retarded way they decided to create this so called online D&D game.
Bugs are one thing, the way the game works is another. That will NOT change anytime soon.
Enjoy the game if you enjoy it now, while you can because if the game doesn't go through massive changes it will flop faster than AC2 did.
...As to you and your WoW warlock, if all you did was shadowbolt then you must be one sad warlock. You had more than one skill.
http://www.greycouncil.org/