Originally posted by kilaan Yeah, definetly the gankers and griefers. Everquest example, Druid is kiting a HG, Wizard says heh, watch this. Wizard casts root. Druid is Rooted to the ground and is getting beat on by a HG, Druid dies and loses a weeks worth of exp. Druid comes back and kills wizard but there is no exp loss for PvP (druid lost exp because while the wizard rooted him he died by PvE) and he doesnt drop any items because he is naked.
(LONG READ BELOW)
I would also like to note that you're exaggerating things a bit with that statement. I played EQ on RZ and then Zek for a long time. If you died XP death to someone, it was in no way a weeks worth of XP, unless you only played 1 hour a week. Yes, people would get you XP killed, but if you had -any- friends in the game it was not hard to get that XP back (or to get a rez) Especially now, where you can summon your corpses to the guild hall and get a rez from someone.
Back to my first statement though in the thread. People think looting is the end all to PvP. That wasn't what I meant to convey in my post. What I meant to convey was this. If there is looting in PvP, or a penalty for dying, it gives MEANING to PvP. It gives you a reason, because you know that if you die, you might lose something important. It adds that 'feeling' to the experience.
In AC, there was nothing more exhilerating than knowing you might die and your opponent might loot you. Some people had sort of unspoken truces in the way of looting. If the guy was cool and you killed him, you didn't loot him.. it was kind of a thing of respect. If he saw that you didn't loot him, he probably wouldn't loot you later if he killed you.
With the no-penalty PvP in games now, it completely took honor out of PvP. There's no longer any penalty for just ganking someone. In AC, if you ganked someone but didn't loot them... they wouldn't take it as hard. Then, they'd come back and gank you. They wouldn't loot you though, and just thought of it as "Hey.. that's what PvP is about. No hard feelings." If you ganked them and looted them.. well, that was a dirty thing to do, because it might have been 5vs1 and took no skill. So, they wouldn't think twice about looting you next time they killed you.
PvPers get a bad rap -because- of this no penalty crap. Yes, some PvPers act like idiots on message boards and such, but in-game I've met some of the greatest friends ever. In AC, you could see some people acting like fools on the VN boards. But in-game, you saw a whole different side of them. I saw a lot who would ask someone for a fight, lose, and just say "GF man" and shrug it off after they were looted.
Hell, it happened to me a lot. I'd just come back, kill the guy, and loot him (or lose again and call it a day). People are taking things way out of proportion by grouping all PvPers into one big group.... and MOST of the anti-looters have never PvPed a day in their life with looting rules. They've -only- PvPed in situations where they have no penalty. They don't know about that adrenaline rush that hits the moment you're attacked out of nowhere. They don't have that rush, because they've got nothing to lose. That's what PvP is about. Not looting.. not talking crap.. not corpse camping. (That's another thing that WoW introduced)
As far as talking crap to someone in PvP. Well, that was just a part of it. You knew that if someone talked crap to you, you could kill them and loot them later on. Then they knew you were better than them. WoW took out -that- element too. Yeah, it's a "friendlier" environment, but again it takes away all reason from everything.
Corpse camping - Something not usually found in EQ and AC, due to the possibility of losing something. It is a risk vs. reward situation. There's a bit of risk involved, because the person you just killed and are corpse camping, might be bringing friends. Then, you might lose something of -yours-.
In WoW, nothing happens to a corpse camper.. he just keeps doing it time and time again. If he gets killed, oh well. He doesn't care. Nothing bad happened to him.. he just sat there and griefed someone with no penalty.
I hope you all see where I'm going with this. I'm not one of those idiots who give real PvPers a bad name. I'm not talking crap because you don't like looting. I'm giving reasons on why this type of gameplay was the peak of PvP, and why it was so fun.
I agree with Sheista completely. That's the ultimate vision of PvP in my opinion.
I hope they bring it back too.
I'm realist enough to know that it's got to stand or fall on the PvP population that makes it past the first rush of the game. There will be gankers and griefers and masses of people will quit just because of the trash talk.
That's why I turn off most forms of chat when I play. It's a whole lot more fun to think the other person is respectful. I could live with someone teabagging me when I die, the ones I hate are the people that trash talk when they lose a fair and enjoyable fight. Lying dead at my feet and I say, "good fight," and then they start calling names and cussing.
If you want a FFA PvP game to be successful you have to have some way to stop the trash talking, control the ganking and griefing and make it fun for all levels. How do you do that and keep it FFA PvP? I don't know, but if they don't there will be very little growth because nobody wants to leave a game they enjoy for one they don't.
Originally posted by Roin I love PvPing, but I see no point in adding looting to it. I don't want your armor, weapons, items, or money. I want your life. I'm not a rogue or a thief. I usually play Warrior or Archer types. If you PvP for the loot. Then you really aren't a pvp'er in my opinion. You are just a step above a PvE'er, in which you are doing the same thing. PvP is for the Challenge or Bragging rights. PvE is for the collection of Loot and Items. Ganking/PKing is for those that lack the balls to be PvPers.
Adding loot is for the TRUE pvpers that don't want to spend their time farming mobs all die...why fight a mob spawn for an hour when you can go roll some farming group and take all their stuff
Ganking/Pking is to make people cry and for them to send you hate tells/whispers telling you to die IRL
PvE is gay and I don't pay a monthly fee to fight NPCs
PvP should be about destroying someone's home, taking whatever they have on them (I don't care for the armor they are wearing, just what they were carrying)
IMO if you pvp just to pvp then it's pointless, you're just playing a game that is hardcore PvE and quests with PvP just something you can do in your spare time
Originally posted by Entreri28 Oh good, someone that doesn't enjoy challenge. Why do you even care about posting in a pvp thread if you don't like it?
FFA PvP in a MMORPG is NOT a challenge. It's generally an uneven contest one way or another, and it has the added drawback of encouraging griefing. It has NO redeeming features...FULL STOP.
PS. I thought the thread was about the DEATH of FFA PvP...that's why I'm here...to see, and revel in it!
Originally posted by asdar I love FFA PVP, but I don't think it had a thing to do with care bears or looting. People don't like being ganked by people five levels higher or packs and they hate the trash talking that goes with it. I don't mind the ganking but hate the trash talk myself. It's the FFA PvP'ers that did it, the ones who call anyone not for FFA care bear. Instead of promoting and defending fair fights, honor and respect they'd rather talk trash and insult people. I love FFA PvP and I get sick of those guys. Not enough people even get to the level they can really experience a fair fight. If you re-did your poll to give that option I bet a lot would pick it.
Ganking is just a part of game like that
If you don't like being killed by someone 5 levels higher than you then don't go out alone
I'm sorry but if you're all for fair fights and honor than you're not for FFA pvp. It is completely contradictory. FFA pvp means anyone can fight anyone anywhere. Even number fights are static and boring, give me a game where the numbers can very from you outnumbering your opponent 5:1 to being outnumbered 5:1. Having your 1 group kill 3 groups in the open field is much more rewarding than winning an 8v8 or a 1v1 duel
To answer the question of this thread the problem was with people whining to the devs about how they just got pked and lost all their pixels and then the devs go and change something to fit the needs of the whiners. Also with the popularity of games like WoW, Everquest, Final Fantasy 11; Developers see that they can sell some crappy PvE game and get a ton of subscribers
Originally posted by n2sooners I think it comes down to most people not wanting to play games with people who run around calling others names (like carebear) and ganking new players (who then quit and never get hooked on the game). In short, the thing that hurts open PvP the most are the players.
It died due to Griefers. As mentionned elsewhere in this thread not every PvP'er is a ganker or a griefer. Just as not every PvE'er is a carebear, there are some that know they take a risk when gathering something in a PK flagged zone.
The so-called Carebears had a valid complaint, any logically thinking PvP'er can agree with that fact. They were getting griefed and they made their money speak. I had a wonderful experience when I first enterred Graal : I didn't even get to see the world because I was PK'ed before the screen loaded. I would much rather see developpers finding a compromise to suit both the honest PvP'ers and the honest PvE'ers. You don't enter a world with 50 friends, you are dropped in it and go out and make friends.
As mentionned before, creating a level-start/PK-flag would provide for semi-honest fights. Mmorpg's are more about numbers then they are about skill. Saying the contrary is not being honest with yourself. If you like fighting with other people there's a thing such as FPS games out there where all fights are programmed to be honest fights. A Roleplaying game is just that, playing a role, and yes you can be a villain, no trouble whatsoever but there are risks to that, things that were covered in the Elder Scroll series like getting a bunch of guards on your tails are not in mmorpgs. They let you have too much reward for not enough risk as a PvP'er.
I ask an mmo company to be stricter with rules that fit right into the gameplay and feel of an rpg. It will be one of the tickets to succes in the genre. To make it so that players really create the content of the game, that you are born as a child (lvl 1) and can't be sent to war (PvP) before you're an adult (max lvl-x%), that a guild constructs a part of a town limited by terrain availability and not a hall (all just examples of the limits in rules of mmorpg's). With the right set of rules you can make a mmorpg experience fun with good PvP integrated to it's fullest extent.
There is no such thing as a PvP-only focus advertised game currently on the market. An mmorpg-box is usually focused on a mix of "beautiful world", "PvE-content", "PvP-content". They were all minor aspects of roleplaying games but if companies limited their market to the people that liked to RP with their pen and paper games they wouldn't be making as much of a profit.
The FFA days are over people abused, deal with it. When people take advantage of things so much that it costs the providing company too much money it gets taken away that is the logic of marketeconomies. Griefers PK'ing and blaming Carebears for leaving is like shoplifting in a store and complaining that it closed because they didn't make a profit. If you want to keep PvP around don't waste your words on bringing FFA back, look for the compromises you are willing to make.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe FFA PvP in MMORPGs is dead?! THANK THE GODS!!! Seriously, If I want to PvP, I'll play Counter-Strike, Planetside, Red Alert 2, or Soul Calibur 3. PvP in MMORPGs is for people that have no skills and are afraid of a fair contest.
I love Halo and Socom, but FPS and MMO are nothing alike. In a FPS it's even numbers vs even numbers...in soul caliber it's 1v1, Red Alert doesn't even being to fit in this arguement.
Playing games like those get boring because there is no variety. It's much more exciting to be traveling around the server never knowing if someone (or several) people are going to jump out and start attacking you...in a game like Counter Strike you KNOW the fight is coming so you can prepare yourself. In a FFA PvP game you can be inside your own city minding your own business, but if someone comes out and surprise attacks you then you have to think/work on the fly.
Then you also have the ability for fights that are like 30 vs. 70, the people who don't like this type of fight don't like it because they don't have the skills to be on the side with 30...There are guilds that have fought 10 vs. 60 and won...small guilds who have a major impact on servers full of huge guilds. MMO's are all about skill
Shadowbane example, in a group minding our own business at level 30. All of a sudden 2 groups of level 60's come and waste us. Lose all our unequiped items and our equiped items lose mass durability. Okay so we go somewhere else and 2 different groups come by(while we are fighting mind you) and waste us. Don't get me wrong, I loved Everquest, and once I found the perfect guild I loved Shadowbane(till i got fed up with all it's bugs) You mix anonymity with low self esteem and the chance to make other peoples lives as miserable as yours breeds trouble. I am really looking forward to Darkfall and hope it lives up to my expectations. It mostly likely will not but I can always hope.
Really though what would you expect...if you took any time at all to read about that game maybe you would have realized the Shadowbane was all about FFA PvP. What did you expect those 2 groups of 60's to do just walk by and say "good day sir" and leave you alone? No, they saw a target and a way to make some easy money so they took it.
You mentioned the reason why Shadowbane is a dieing game though too many bugs, bad customer support, and a dev team that takes 6 months (min.) to act on anything
Originally posted by dark-merlin if you get good enough at a certain game, better than most, and/or have a good PK group to play with, you will not like non FFA games anymore..at least that is usualy the case.
So, when your "good enough" lvl 50 hits that level 40 in the back while he's fighting mobs tell me how good that makes you feel, and how much of a challenge it is for you?
And when your "good PK group" kills that lone or paired PvEer minding their own business tell me how good that makes you feel, and whether it really is a challenge!
We are talking about MMORPGs here! They are rarely, if ever, a level playing field and to penalise players who aren't playing the game for the PvP is stupid. I DON'T WANT to get "GOOD" at PKing, because in nearly every case it means I'm hurting someone else to do it. The whole PK, griefing, ganking thing is anti-social behaviour and doesn't belong anywhere, let alone in a game. Just look at the comments that come from so many of the FFA PvP players (even in forums) and you'll see why being good at PKing is NOT a thing that any well-adjusted person would want to be. (Don't want to generalise too much, as I'm sure some people are doing it as an outlet and not as the anti-social behaviour it seems, but honestly take it to the FPS arena where it will actually mean something in terms of "skill"!)
1.) I was killed countless times by lvl 50-70when I was only lvl 20 in Shadowbane. I got over it.
2.) I got up to lvl 50-70 and yes I killed my share of "lowbies" but I also competed in real FFA PvP with the number of players on each side with a variety of ranges. Getting ganked is just something you have to deal with in a game like that...if you can't then that game is not for you
3.) Antisocial is a psychological diagnosis that does not pertain to MMOs or any game for that matter. Why? Because games are not real life, they are FANTASY...I'm guessing you're one of those people that thinks Grand Theft Auto shouldn't be in stores?
4.) Simple solution to your problem, if you don't like PvP/PKing then don't play games that involve it...just like I'm not going to play a game like WoW or everquest because I know the game is not for me.
I don't mean to insult you all but I'm starting to think you're all a bunch of morons and I'm one for considering myself a FFA PvP'r.
What game are you saying was killed by care bears? None were, they were killed because people didn't keep paying the dollars. That's what it's all about.
The FFA people didn't quit Shadowbane, they were there until the population dwindled, many are still there. The population left for the reasons that have been stated here.
You asked the question but you want a new answer. Open your eyes, a PvP game will only be successful when they get a large number of PvP paying customers. You're not willing to see that you're the ones chasing people away with the trash talk, the griefing and the ganking.
I love PvP, and FFA PvP is the best. I don't ever mind being killed, even if they tie experience to it. I don't mind being stripped of all my stuff or any of it. There are a lot of people who do. That's why FFA PvP games haven't been successful and the one area that I think chases away most is the trash talk.
You're trying to convince me that your game style is the best, well I agree with you. The problem is that we all have a problem with getting a decent FFA PvP game that can be successful. We're not going to get it by staying with the same formula that hasn't worked.
Blame them all you want it's not going to change the fact that until we get more of them on our side no game will be successful.
Sorry for alll the posts but this is my first time seeing this thread and I'm just replying as I go along
in reply to Krulosdimera and Shiesta
Krulosdimera- To answer your question as to why I would not like a game that restricts PvP to the higher levels is because there are restrictions. It's not because I'm afraid of a challenge or because a psychiatrist would diagnose me with a personality disorder, but rather because THIS IS A GAME OF MY CHOOSING. The most important word there is GAME meaning fake, fantasy, not real life.
The characters, items, equipment, and gold in a game are all just pixels and nothing more. Also, killing a lvl 20 while he is farming or leveling up hurts him/his guild. It's the fact that you just hindered an enemy player/guild's ability to fight you.
Useing Shadowbane as an example (as it is the MMO I have most enjoyed). Killing lowbies leveling does 2 things: A.) Allows you to take whatever loot they had aquired meaning that is some PvE that you don't have to do. B.) You just won one of thousands of battles against an enemy. That character could have been farming up money to buy a bane to drop on your city tomorrow, or that character could have been leveling to be an effective member of a spec group that will be used against you
I admit I don't like being ganked, but it's not the act of being killed by someone higher than me that I don't like. It's the fact that I just lost, but I realized something when I first began playing MMO's. These are just pixels, it's just a fantasy game, and if I ever see that person again I'll do my best to repay him the favor. So, I just shrug it off and go back to what I was doing.
I would bet that most people in favor of FFA pvp don't like being ganked, but again it's because it is a competition and they just lost. It's no different than being an athlete and getting mad when you lose, give up a homerun, throw an interception, or lose the ball. It's competitive nature to not like losing
To Shiesta- I agree with a lot of what you said. PvP is only fun when it has meaning, otherwise what's the point. Some people enjoy 1v1, 4v4, 8v8 etc... duels. I enjoy fights consisting of 100+ players on each side, Sieges against a greater force that last for hours.
Also FFA PvP isn't all about griefing or outnumbering your opponent. I have challenged and been challenged to 1v1 duels on countless times. I win some and I lose some, but the point is you have your FFA PvP with the ability to have a fair fight every once in a while
I love ffa PvP and realy blame carebears for ruining most of it, I am probsbly a minority in my views but I want PvP as costly and realistic as posible.
My question is why do people who don't like FFA PvP, play FFA PvP games? Saying that griefers/gankers are the reason why you got chased away isn't really true. The truth is the game was never really for you in the first place.
If Shadowbane 2 were to come out tomorrow with no bugs there would be plenty of subscribers (of people who really enjoy FFA PvP). The problem is there would also be a lot of people who don't really fit the audience that this type of game is marketed too. They will get ganked and some will quit, and some will complain to the devs. The devs will change something makeing the people mad who fit the games audience and some will leave.
It's people who really shouldn't be playing the game anyway that really hurts FFA PvP MMOs
Originally posted by chs5138 My question is why do people who don't like FFA PvP, play FFA PvP games? Saying that griefers/gankers are the reason why you got chased away isn't really true. The truth is the game was never really for you in the first place. If Shadowbane 2 were to come out tomorrow with no bugs there would be plenty of subscribers (of people who really enjoy FFA PvP). The problem is there would also be a lot of people who don't really fit the audience that this type of game is marketed too. They will get ganked and some will quit, and some will complain to the devs. The devs will change something makeing the people mad who fit the games audience and some will leave. It's people who really shouldn't be playing the game anyway that really hurts FFA PvP MMOs
QFE
I agree 100% I hated LOVED being a bounty hunter in SWG I was the most feared Imperial bh who hunted (Naritus server ign: Nunya-biznes Rebel Jedi kills: 173) BUT alll the crybaby Jedi who got pwned and lost xp cried and cried til player missions were taken away. That was another reason to never go back to swg again it has become carebear central and I need a goof ffa PvP game (Roma Victot sounds like it?
Originally posted by asdar I don't mean to insult you all but I'm starting to think you're all a bunch of morons and I'm one for considering myself a FFA PvP'r. What game are you saying was killed by care bears? None were, they were killed because people didn't keep paying the dollars. That's what it's all about. The FFA people didn't quit Shadowbane, they were there until the population dwindled, many are still there. The population left for the reasons that have been stated here. You asked the question but you want a new answer. Open your eyes, a PvP game will only be successful when they get a large number of PvP paying customers. You're not willing to see that you're the ones chasing people away with the trash talk, the griefing and the ganking. I love PvP, and FFA PvP is the best. I don't ever mind being killed, even if they tie experience to it. I don't mind being stripped of all my stuff or any of it. There are a lot of people who do. That's why FFA PvP games haven't been successful and the one area that I think chases away most is the trash talk. You're trying to convince me that your game style is the best, well I agree with you. The problem is that we all have a problem with getting a decent FFA PvP game that can be successful. We're not going to get it by staying with the same formula that hasn't worked. Blame them all you want it's not going to change the fact that until we get more of them on our side no game will be successful.
Pretty much the first intelligent post from the "the dark side" I have seen in this place, if all true PvP people understood this then you WOULD have the game you/we want, sadly I do not see this happening in a long time.
And to thoose who keep saying the devs changed the game to cater to 'carebears', do not give them much credit, they make their decisions on BUSSINESS model, they want to put food on the tables of their families, they change the game to cater to their WALLET.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you're right it is a business, but if these "carebears" wouldn't start playing a game that they should know is not for them then the devs wouldn't need to make drastic changes because the targeted audience is happy
Originally posted by asdar I don't mean to insult you all but I'm starting to think you're all a bunch of morons and I'm one for considering myself a FFA PvP'r. What game are you saying was killed by care bears? None were, they were killed because people didn't keep paying the dollars. That's what it's all about. The FFA people didn't quit Shadowbane, they were there until the population dwindled, many are still there. The population left for the reasons that have been stated here. You asked the question but you want a new answer. Open your eyes, a PvP game will only be successful when they get a large number of PvP paying customers. You're not willing to see that you're the ones chasing people away with the trash talk, the griefing and the ganking. I love PvP, and FFA PvP is the best. I don't ever mind being killed, even if they tie experience to it. I don't mind being stripped of all my stuff or any of it. There are a lot of people who do. That's why FFA PvP games haven't been successful and the one area that I think chases away most is the trash talk. You're trying to convince me that your game style is the best, well I agree with you. The problem is that we all have a problem with getting a decent FFA PvP game that can be successful. We're not going to get it by staying with the same formula that hasn't worked. Blame them all you want it's not going to change the fact that until we get more of them on our side no game will be successful.
The bugs, slow dev team, and horrible Custom "Care" Representatives are what killed shadowbane. Sure a lot of people quit because of being ganked, but again the game really wasn't for them. Far more people quit because of the reasons that I stated. Shadowbane lost a lot of their targeted audience because they released an unfinished game full of bugs. Then they had CCR's that were just awful. The game itself now is a lot better but people are scared of it because of it's history and it's outdated graphics.
If the game were re-released today in it's current state, there have been numerous polls of large guilds that would come back to it. Go to those guilds websites and forums and I gurantee most (if not all) will have something about Shadowbane 2
Originally posted by chs5138 you're right it is a business, but if these "carebears" wouldn't start playing a game that they should know is not for them then the devs wouldn't need to make drastic changes because the targeted audience is happy
Hm, you absolutely do not get it, do you ?
The devs do the changes because obviosly most paying custumers are not in favour of getting ganked. You state that you prefer robbing people instead of camping for a piece of equipment. Well, do not blame people for not liking that concept.
Carebears might kill what you call FFA PvP. They do so by not subscribing any longer to games that offer it. Funny enough, your argument *carebears* should not subscribe to FFA PvP games is killing those games. The chinese say, be carefull what you wish for.
Originally posted by chs5138 you're right it is a business, but if these "carebears" wouldn't start playing a game that they should know is not for them then the devs wouldn't need to make drastic changes because the targeted audience is happy
Hm, you absolutely do not get it, do you ?
The devs do the changes because obviosly most paying custumers are not in favour of getting ganked. You state that you prefer robbing people instead of camping for a piece of equipment. Well, do not blame people for not liking that concept.
Carebears might kill what you call FFA PvP. They do so by not subscribing any longer to games that offer it. Funny enough, your argument *carebears* should not subscribe to FFA PvP games is killing those games. The chinese say, be carefull what you wish for.
clearly you're the one who does not get it.
I'm going to be using Shadowbane as my example because it is the truest FFA PvP game out, and the one I have the most knowledge of and here are my points
1.)Did you ever play Shadowbane, I'm guessing you didn't, but if you did and were an active member on their forums you would have seen just how many pvp guilds left because of the bugs...far more people left because of the bugs than "carebears" who got mad because someone killed their character made of pixels....for every rant there was about some 5-10 person guild leaving because they got ganked there were 10 rants about 20-50+ person guilds leaving because of the bugs and customer service.
2.) Go on the Darkfall forums, and look at just how many former shadowbane guilds are coming there because "it is Shadowbane 2" or "it's the closest thing to shadowbane there is".
3.) I know that pvpers are in the minority, but there are enough of us to give a game a strong showing.
4.) My arguement is not ironic in anyway. No, a game that feature FFA PvP isn't going to hit the 5 million mark like WoW, but if someone made a solid FFA game then they would have a solid playerbase.
If you killed all the carebears and then the carebears killed your game?
Does that not mean that you got:
PWND!!
By a bunch of carebears?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments
(LONG READ BELOW)
I would also like to note that you're exaggerating things a bit with that statement. I played EQ on RZ and then Zek for a long time. If you died XP death to someone, it was in no way a weeks worth of XP, unless you only played 1 hour a week. Yes, people would get you XP killed, but if you had -any- friends in the game it was not hard to get that XP back (or to get a rez) Especially now, where you can summon your corpses to the guild hall and get a rez from someone.
Back to my first statement though in the thread. People think looting is the end all to PvP. That wasn't what I meant to convey in my post. What I meant to convey was this. If there is looting in PvP, or a penalty for dying, it gives MEANING to PvP. It gives you a reason, because you know that if you die, you might lose something important. It adds that 'feeling' to the experience.
In AC, there was nothing more exhilerating than knowing you might die and your opponent might loot you. Some people had sort of unspoken truces in the way of looting. If the guy was cool and you killed him, you didn't loot him.. it was kind of a thing of respect. If he saw that you didn't loot him, he probably wouldn't loot you later if he killed you.
With the no-penalty PvP in games now, it completely took honor out of PvP. There's no longer any penalty for just ganking someone. In AC, if you ganked someone but didn't loot them... they wouldn't take it as hard. Then, they'd come back and gank you. They wouldn't loot you though, and just thought of it as "Hey.. that's what PvP is about. No hard feelings." If you ganked them and looted them.. well, that was a dirty thing to do, because it might have been 5vs1 and took no skill. So, they wouldn't think twice about looting you next time they killed you.
PvPers get a bad rap -because- of this no penalty crap. Yes, some PvPers act like idiots on message boards and such, but in-game I've met some of the greatest friends ever. In AC, you could see some people acting like fools on the VN boards. But in-game, you saw a whole different side of them. I saw a lot who would ask someone for a fight, lose, and just say "GF man" and shrug it off after they were looted.
Hell, it happened to me a lot. I'd just come back, kill the guy, and loot him (or lose again and call it a day). People are taking things way out of proportion by grouping all PvPers into one big group.... and MOST of the anti-looters have never PvPed a day in their life with looting rules. They've -only- PvPed in situations where they have no penalty. They don't know about that adrenaline rush that hits the moment you're attacked out of nowhere. They don't have that rush, because they've got nothing to lose. That's what PvP is about. Not looting.. not talking crap.. not corpse camping. (That's another thing that WoW introduced)
As far as talking crap to someone in PvP. Well, that was just a part of it. You knew that if someone talked crap to you, you could kill them and loot them later on. Then they knew you were better than them. WoW took out -that- element too. Yeah, it's a "friendlier" environment, but again it takes away all reason from everything.
Corpse camping - Something not usually found in EQ and AC, due to the possibility of losing something. It is a risk vs. reward situation. There's a bit of risk involved, because the person you just killed and are corpse camping, might be bringing friends. Then, you might lose something of -yours-.
In WoW, nothing happens to a corpse camper.. he just keeps doing it time and time again. If he gets killed, oh well. He doesn't care. Nothing bad happened to him.. he just sat there and griefed someone with no penalty.
I hope you all see where I'm going with this. I'm not one of those idiots who give real PvPers a bad name. I'm not talking crap because you don't like looting. I'm giving reasons on why this type of gameplay was the peak of PvP, and why it was so fun.
^ man speaks the truth, especially about AC PVP, of which ive been part of.
there is alot more to PKing than a non pker thinks, not only ganking and griefing, but honor, respect...that stuff matters alot more on a FFA server
i just hope Darkfall will give me back the thrill of what AC had
I agree with Sheista completely. That's the ultimate vision of PvP in my opinion.
I hope they bring it back too.
I'm realist enough to know that it's got to stand or fall on the PvP population that makes it past the first rush of the game. There will be gankers and griefers and masses of people will quit just because of the trash talk.
That's why I turn off most forms of chat when I play. It's a whole lot more fun to think the other person is respectful. I could live with someone teabagging me when I die, the ones I hate are the people that trash talk when they lose a fair and enjoyable fight. Lying dead at my feet and I say, "good fight," and then they start calling names and cussing.
If you want a FFA PvP game to be successful you have to have some way to stop the trash talking, control the ganking and griefing and make it fun for all levels. How do you do that and keep it FFA PvP? I don't know, but if they don't there will be very little growth because nobody wants to leave a game they enjoy for one they don't.
Asdar
FFA PvP in a MMORPG is NOT a challenge. It's generally an uneven contest one way or another, and it has the added drawback of encouraging griefing. It has NO redeeming features...FULL STOP.
PS. I thought the thread was about the DEATH of FFA PvP...that's why I'm here...to see, and revel in it!
^^^
This is what we in Shadowbane call a carebear
Ganking is just a part of game like that
If you don't like being killed by someone 5 levels higher than you then don't go out alone
I'm sorry but if you're all for fair fights and honor than you're not for FFA pvp. It is completely contradictory. FFA pvp means anyone can fight anyone anywhere. Even number fights are static and boring, give me a game where the numbers can very from you outnumbering your opponent 5:1 to being outnumbered 5:1. Having your 1 group kill 3 groups in the open field is much more rewarding than winning an 8v8 or a 1v1 duel
To answer the question of this thread the problem was with people whining to the devs about how they just got pked and lost all their pixels and then the devs go and change something to fit the needs of the whiners. Also with the popularity of games like WoW, Everquest, Final Fantasy 11; Developers see that they can sell some crappy PvE game and get a ton of subscribers
'nuff said
It died due to Griefers. As mentionned elsewhere in this thread not every PvP'er is a ganker or a griefer. Just as not every PvE'er is a carebear, there are some that know they take a risk when gathering something in a PK flagged zone.
The so-called Carebears had a valid complaint, any logically thinking PvP'er can agree with that fact. They were getting griefed and they made their money speak. I had a wonderful experience when I first enterred Graal : I didn't even get to see the world because I was PK'ed before the screen loaded. I would much rather see developpers finding a compromise to suit both the honest PvP'ers and the honest PvE'ers. You don't enter a world with 50 friends, you are dropped in it and go out and make friends.
As mentionned before, creating a level-start/PK-flag would provide for semi-honest fights. Mmorpg's are more about numbers then they are about skill. Saying the contrary is not being honest with yourself. If you like fighting with other people there's a thing such as FPS games out there where all fights are programmed to be honest fights. A Roleplaying game is just that, playing a role, and yes you can be a villain, no trouble whatsoever but there are risks to that, things that were covered in the Elder Scroll series like getting a bunch of guards on your tails are not in mmorpgs. They let you have too much reward for not enough risk as a PvP'er.
I ask an mmo company to be stricter with rules that fit right into the gameplay and feel of an rpg. It will be one of the tickets to succes in the genre. To make it so that players really create the content of the game, that you are born as a child (lvl 1) and can't be sent to war (PvP) before you're an adult (max lvl-x%), that a guild constructs a part of a town limited by terrain availability and not a hall (all just examples of the limits in rules of mmorpg's). With the right set of rules you can make a mmorpg experience fun with good PvP integrated to it's fullest extent.
There is no such thing as a PvP-only focus advertised game currently on the market. An mmorpg-box is usually focused on a mix of "beautiful world", "PvE-content", "PvP-content". They were all minor aspects of roleplaying games but if companies limited their market to the people that liked to RP with their pen and paper games they wouldn't be making as much of a profit.
The FFA days are over people abused, deal with it. When people take advantage of things so much that it costs the providing company too much money it gets taken away that is the logic of marketeconomies. Griefers PK'ing and blaming Carebears for leaving is like shoplifting in a store and complaining that it closed because they didn't make a profit. If you want to keep PvP around don't waste your words on bringing FFA back, look for the compromises you are willing to make.
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I love Halo and Socom, but FPS and MMO are nothing alike. In a FPS it's even numbers vs even numbers...in soul caliber it's 1v1, Red Alert doesn't even being to fit in this arguement.
Playing games like those get boring because there is no variety. It's much more exciting to be traveling around the server never knowing if someone (or several) people are going to jump out and start attacking you...in a game like Counter Strike you KNOW the fight is coming so you can prepare yourself. In a FFA PvP game you can be inside your own city minding your own business, but if someone comes out and surprise attacks you then you have to think/work on the fly.
Then you also have the ability for fights that are like 30 vs. 70, the people who don't like this type of fight don't like it because they don't have the skills to be on the side with 30...There are guilds that have fought 10 vs. 60 and won...small guilds who have a major impact on servers full of huge guilds. MMO's are all about skill
Really though what would you expect...if you took any time at all to read about that game maybe you would have realized the Shadowbane was all about FFA PvP. What did you expect those 2 groups of 60's to do just walk by and say "good day sir" and leave you alone? No, they saw a target and a way to make some easy money so they took it.
You mentioned the reason why Shadowbane is a dieing game though too many bugs, bad customer support, and a dev team that takes 6 months (min.) to act on anything
So, when your "good enough" lvl 50 hits that level 40 in the back while he's fighting mobs tell me how good that makes you feel, and how much of a challenge it is for you?
And when your "good PK group" kills that lone or paired PvEer minding their own business tell me how good that makes you feel, and whether it really is a challenge!
We are talking about MMORPGs here! They are rarely, if ever, a level playing field and to penalise players who aren't playing the game for the PvP is stupid. I DON'T WANT to get "GOOD" at PKing, because in nearly every case it means I'm hurting someone else to do it. The whole PK, griefing, ganking thing is anti-social behaviour and doesn't belong anywhere, let alone in a game. Just look at the comments that come from so many of the FFA PvP players (even in forums) and you'll see why being good at PKing is NOT a thing that any well-adjusted person would want to be. (Don't want to generalise too much, as I'm sure some people are doing it as an outlet and not as the anti-social behaviour it seems, but honestly take it to the FPS arena where it will actually mean something in terms of "skill"!)
1.) I was killed countless times by lvl 50-70when I was only lvl 20 in Shadowbane. I got over it.
2.) I got up to lvl 50-70 and yes I killed my share of "lowbies" but I also competed in real FFA PvP with the number of players on each side with a variety of ranges. Getting ganked is just something you have to deal with in a game like that...if you can't then that game is not for you
3.) Antisocial is a psychological diagnosis that does not pertain to MMOs or any game for that matter. Why? Because games are not real life, they are FANTASY...I'm guessing you're one of those people that thinks Grand Theft Auto shouldn't be in stores?
4.) Simple solution to your problem, if you don't like PvP/PKing then don't play games that involve it...just like I'm not going to play a game like WoW or everquest because I know the game is not for me.
I don't mean to insult you all but I'm starting to think you're all a bunch of morons and I'm one for considering myself a FFA PvP'r.
What game are you saying was killed by care bears? None were, they were killed because people didn't keep paying the dollars. That's what it's all about.
The FFA people didn't quit Shadowbane, they were there until the population dwindled, many are still there. The population left for the reasons that have been stated here.
You asked the question but you want a new answer. Open your eyes, a PvP game will only be successful when they get a large number of PvP paying customers. You're not willing to see that you're the ones chasing people away with the trash talk, the griefing and the ganking.
I love PvP, and FFA PvP is the best. I don't ever mind being killed, even if they tie experience to it. I don't mind being stripped of all my stuff or any of it. There are a lot of people who do. That's why FFA PvP games haven't been successful and the one area that I think chases away most is the trash talk.
You're trying to convince me that your game style is the best, well I agree with you. The problem is that we all have a problem with getting a decent FFA PvP game that can be successful. We're not going to get it by staying with the same formula that hasn't worked.
Blame them all you want it's not going to change the fact that until we get more of them on our side no game will be successful.
Asdar
Sorry for alll the posts but this is my first time seeing this thread and I'm just replying as I go along
in reply to Krulosdimera and Shiesta
Krulosdimera- To answer your question as to why I would not like a game that restricts PvP to the higher levels is because there are restrictions. It's not because I'm afraid of a challenge or because a psychiatrist would diagnose me with a personality disorder, but rather because THIS IS A GAME OF MY CHOOSING. The most important word there is GAME meaning fake, fantasy, not real life.
The characters, items, equipment, and gold in a game are all just pixels and nothing more. Also, killing a lvl 20 while he is farming or leveling up hurts him/his guild. It's the fact that you just hindered an enemy player/guild's ability to fight you.
Useing Shadowbane as an example (as it is the MMO I have most enjoyed). Killing lowbies leveling does 2 things: A.) Allows you to take whatever loot they had aquired meaning that is some PvE that you don't have to do. B.) You just won one of thousands of battles against an enemy. That character could have been farming up money to buy a bane to drop on your city tomorrow, or that character could have been leveling to be an effective member of a spec group that will be used against you
I admit I don't like being ganked, but it's not the act of being killed by someone higher than me that I don't like. It's the fact that I just lost, but I realized something when I first began playing MMO's. These are just pixels, it's just a fantasy game, and if I ever see that person again I'll do my best to repay him the favor. So, I just shrug it off and go back to what I was doing.
I would bet that most people in favor of FFA pvp don't like being ganked, but again it's because it is a competition and they just lost. It's no different than being an athlete and getting mad when you lose, give up a homerun, throw an interception, or lose the ball. It's competitive nature to not like losing
To Shiesta- I agree with a lot of what you said. PvP is only fun when it has meaning, otherwise what's the point. Some people enjoy 1v1, 4v4, 8v8 etc... duels. I enjoy fights consisting of 100+ players on each side, Sieges against a greater force that last for hours.
Also FFA PvP isn't all about griefing or outnumbering your opponent. I have challenged and been challenged to 1v1 duels on countless times. I win some and I lose some, but the point is you have your FFA PvP with the ability to have a fair fight every once in a while
{(RIP)} SWG
My question is why do people who don't like FFA PvP, play FFA PvP games? Saying that griefers/gankers are the reason why you got chased away isn't really true. The truth is the game was never really for you in the first place.
If Shadowbane 2 were to come out tomorrow with no bugs there would be plenty of subscribers (of people who really enjoy FFA PvP). The problem is there would also be a lot of people who don't really fit the audience that this type of game is marketed too. They will get ganked and some will quit, and some will complain to the devs. The devs will change something makeing the people mad who fit the games audience and some will leave.
It's people who really shouldn't be playing the game anyway that really hurts FFA PvP MMOs
QFE
I agree 100% I hated LOVED being a bounty hunter in SWG I was the most feared Imperial bh who hunted (Naritus server ign: Nunya-biznes Rebel Jedi kills: 173) BUT alll the crybaby Jedi who got pwned and lost xp cried and cried til player missions were taken away. That was another reason to never go back to swg again it has become carebear central and I need a goof ffa PvP game (Roma Victot sounds like it?
{(RIP)} SWG
While mmorpgs are equipment based looting is a no-no.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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The bugs, slow dev team, and horrible Custom "Care" Representatives are what killed shadowbane. Sure a lot of people quit because of being ganked, but again the game really wasn't for them. Far more people quit because of the reasons that I stated. Shadowbane lost a lot of their targeted audience because they released an unfinished game full of bugs. Then they had CCR's that were just awful. The game itself now is a lot better but people are scared of it because of it's history and it's outdated graphics.
If the game were re-released today in it's current state, there have been numerous polls of large guilds that would come back to it. Go to those guilds websites and forums and I gurantee most (if not all) will have something about Shadowbane 2
Hm, you absolutely do not get it, do you ?
The devs do the changes because obviosly most paying custumers are not in favour of getting ganked.
You state that you prefer robbing people instead of camping for a piece of equipment. Well, do not blame people for not liking that concept.
Carebears might kill what you call FFA PvP. They do so by not subscribing any longer to games that offer it.
Funny enough, your argument *carebears* should not subscribe to FFA PvP games is killing those games.
The chinese say, be carefull what you wish for.
Hm, you absolutely do not get it, do you ?
The devs do the changes because obviosly most paying custumers are not in favour of getting ganked.
You state that you prefer robbing people instead of camping for a piece of equipment. Well, do not blame people for not liking that concept.
Carebears might kill what you call FFA PvP. They do so by not subscribing any longer to games that offer it.
Funny enough, your argument *carebears* should not subscribe to FFA PvP games is killing those games.
The chinese say, be carefull what you wish for.
clearly you're the one who does not get it.
I'm going to be using Shadowbane as my example because it is the truest FFA PvP game out, and the one I have the most knowledge of and here are my points
1.)Did you ever play Shadowbane, I'm guessing you didn't, but if you did and were an active member on their forums you would have seen just how many pvp guilds left because of the bugs...far more people left because of the bugs than "carebears" who got mad because someone killed their character made of pixels....for every rant there was about some 5-10 person guild leaving because they got ganked there were 10 rants about 20-50+ person guilds leaving because of the bugs and customer service.
2.) Go on the Darkfall forums, and look at just how many former shadowbane guilds are coming there because "it is Shadowbane 2" or "it's the closest thing to shadowbane there is".
3.) I know that pvpers are in the minority, but there are enough of us to give a game a strong showing.
4.) My arguement is not ironic in anyway. No, a game that feature FFA PvP isn't going to hit the 5 million mark like WoW, but if someone made a solid FFA game then they would have a solid playerbase.
Hey, food for thoughts!
If you killed all the carebears and then the carebears killed your game?
Does that not mean that you got:
PWND!!
By a bunch of carebears?
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Will someone please to me why the fuck some retard decided to kill people who don't like PvP 'carebears'?
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No Userbar here, sorry to disappoint.
Because the kill-whores decided they needed a name that made people who didn't like being repeatedly ganked and robbed sound unreasonable.
Chris Mattern