I know I'm a tad late, but I see this old dog is being prodded again...
Now, first and foremost, a game is where people go to have fun, anyone who denies them that right should therefore have THEIR right to play revoked or otherwise suspended.
FFA PvP in a MMORPG is a complete and total joke, and of course a far-off dream. It is just too unbalanced, biased, and prone to fail to be worth spending millions of dollars on, only to have it crash and burn like UO did (Face it, the griefers and gankers put the spear through its heart). Like many, many have stated, there is not challenge in FFA PvP in an MMORPG, unless you turned it into full action, where every move is decided by the player and is carried out instantly (Sword slashes and parrys) and a severely well developed skill system with an equally developed law and order system.
Now, about carebears, I stand by my belief that people who call people that are, forgive my rudeness, mentally retarded and unable to grip the (harsh?) truth that some people don't like to PvP like you do! Lord, Leave them alone already, what did they ever do to you? They like to PvP sometimes, under controlled circumstances, but my God, there are other playstyles other than yours!
In conclusion, if you can't deal with the fact that there is no such thing as Hardcore or Carebear, and that not everyone likes FFA PvP because it usually is unbalanced and done to ruin someone elses fun, then you just may be a nerd who needs to get a life.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe chs5138 Wrote: wow...for whomever was talking about in game griefers/gankers haveing some kind of a personality disorder this is the guy you should be focusing on. I seriously hope you were joking with this statement, but if not then seriously you need psychological counseling. You may laugh at this or call me crazy, but thoughts like "I hope that someone I've never met before gets beaten, robbed, and raped and then I'll piss on their body because I don't like what they do in a fictional game" are not right. This type of thinking is deranged and sadistic and obviously not normal. Actually, this was meant to be ironic. I wanted to display the mentality of the "you knew what the deal was when you came here" arguement. This is the logical conclusion of the "be ready for fight at all times" rebuttal. chs5138 also Wrote: Tell me, if you play Grand Theft Auto do you go out and shoot people with an AK-47 in Real Life? If you play that game Driver (I think it's called) do you go out in real life and be the driver for criminals doing robbery. GTA and Driv3r are both single player games. If I kill or rob someone in those games, I haven't really hurt anyone since they're just bots controlled by the computer. In an MMORPG, the people I victimize are real, flesh and blood people on the other end of the line. If I rob you in real life, I've taken something that you've worked hard for. If I rob you in an MMORPG, I've also taken something you've worked for. In real life, I may be in a desperate situation and feel that I have to mug someone just to survive. In an MMORPG, the only reason I would kill someone is just to ruin their day and piss them off. This would be kinda like me going out to beat the hell out of a random midget, just because I can. Come to think of it, it's exactly like that. Now tell you tell me, Which is the worse mentality?
Well first off I would like to say I'm glad that those sadistic thoughts weren't truly meaningful. However, as far as being ironic it just doesn't compare. Trying to compare Real Life to a Video Game is well stupid. For instance, in a FFA PvP game you are voluntareily playing (and paying for) a game in which the objective is to kill whoever you want. When I play Shadowbane (or whatever other FFA game I have played), I know and fully expect to have 1 or more people come out and start attacking me. This is the type of game I am choosing to play and the game I am willingly paying for. In real you know that a bunch of guys can jump out and mug you, but you don't expect it. I know I could be run over by a car tomorrow or suffer a stroke walking down the street. These are all things you don't have any control over, whereas in a game (again) you are willingly playing and paying to play that game.
As for the Driver and GTA games. I could argue the same thing for MMO's, you aren't actually hurting someone. You may kill their pixelated character that they are controlling, but you aren't actually hurting them. If they get stressed out over it then I'm sorry but it's not my problem. That is a risk you took when you CHOSE to play the game, and it has nothing to do with real life. To take the actual words even more in depth MMORPG.
Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Not only are you chosing to play this game, but because of the genre you are also chosing to play a role, some chose to play the role of evil others play the role of the hero.
When you click on that ToS agreement you are agreeing to play the game. Lets say that there was an MMO created where you could play as a midget or a gangster. Whoever choses the midget knows by accepting to play this game they are at risk of being mugged by the gangster. This is completely different from the real life model because the midget never had the choice to simply not play the game so he wouldn't be mugged by the gangster.
Finally I would like to say that I think you have a misconception about FFA PvP. It's not about ruining someone's day, it's about the competition. Just like the Everquest player who enjoys the challenge of killing some level 60 dragon, I enjoy the challenge of fighting real people in a game. I don't really go out with the intent of ruining someones day, though I don't feel any remorse if I did because it's just a game and they'll get over it.
PvP is the challenge of facing a live opponent in a simulated atmoshpere, or fighting an opponent in an enemy guild whom you are fighting over some location on the map. It's the same reason people would rather play multiplayer Halo than play the single player missions...or you do online clan battles.
No, I don't need a cookie but thanks for asking, what I was saying was: I wouldn't have bothered much about that one post but then I got your gist from other posts and all I saw was arrogance and conceitedness (and yes, I know what they mean).
Anyway, IF you were joking...IF!...then I appologize. I can take a joke, but next time, when you're joking, with a one-line dismissive statement personally calling someone, who was just stating facts, a name that is widely held as a derisive term, then maybe you should put a or a after it so that people will know (and won't question whether you're calling it a joke after the fact).
All right? Champ? (See...that there is condescension...but the tongue smiley after it makes it a joke . And that was sarcasm, but the wink after it makes sure that everyone knows that. )
You sure? Cookies are good.
I really don't see how you saw arrogance and conceit in my other posts, recalling from memory as I'm too lazy atm to go search for them, my posts were saying that the reason a lot of FFA MMO's die is because people complaining about a game that never really fit their playstyle in the first place. I don't really think I came off as condescending towards the PvE playerbase. I think that they should do a little more research into games before they go and play them and if they do play the game and don't like it because it is completely different from the game you want to play...don't complain. Just quit and find a game that is more suitable to you
I would think to be arrogant I would have said something like "PvErs suck and are just scared of a challenge"
Originally posted by Gamewize I know I'm a tad late, but I see this old dog is being prodded again... Now, first and foremost, a game is where people go to have fun, anyone who denies them that right should therefore have THEIR right to play revoked or otherwise suspended. FFA PvP in a MMORPG is a complete and total joke, and of course a far-off dream. It is just too unbalanced, biased, and prone to fail to be worth spending millions of dollars on, only to have it crash and burn like UO did (Face it, the griefers and gankers put the spear through its heart). Like many, many have stated, there is not challenge in FFA PvP in an MMORPG, unless you turned it into full action, where every move is decided by the player and is carried out instantly (Sword slashes and parrys) and a severely well developed skill system with an equally developed law and order system. Now, about carebears, I stand by my belief that people who call people that are, forgive my rudeness, mentally retarded and unable to grip the (harsh?) truth that some people don't like to PvP like you do! Lord, Leave them alone already, what did they ever do to you? They like to PvP sometimes, under controlled circumstances, but my God, there are other playstyles other than yours! In conclusion, if you can't deal with the fact that there is no such thing as Hardcore or Carebear, and that not everyone likes FFA PvP because it usually is unbalanced and done to ruin someone elses fun, then you just may be a nerd who needs to get a life.
a couple of points here. The PvPers here aren't the ones saying that "carebears" (PvErs) are wrong in their style of play. WE have been the ones stateing that there are 2 very distinct and different styles of play.
"FFA PvP is a joke" That is well wrong. There are a couple of ways to interpret Balance and Bias the way you used them so I will be making assumptions.
By unbalance I guess you are referring to higher levels haveing an advantage in pvp. Makes sense to me though. By bias I'm assuming you are meaning bias towards the PvP players. Again makes sense to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong on either of these.
You people seem to be assuming that everyone who plays an FFA PvP only attacks lower level characters (which there is some truth behind this because guess what, it's FFA PvP, kill whoever you please whenever you please). And yes it is a challenge and does take skill. In a PvE game what makes an NPC hard to beat? The answer is that creatures level, the equipment it has, and the abilities it has because of it's level. In PvP you have all these factors PLUS the human mind.
Forgive me if I'm wrong here (I'm going to make what seems to be a very logical assumption) but I'm guessing that people who say "PvPers lack skill" and "People only PK you to ruin your game experience" have either never played a PvP game or played a PvP game, got killed, got pissed off, and then decided that those type of players suck or whatever.
The PvP playerbase calls the PvE players carebears. However, the hypocrisy of it all is those same people who hate being called "carebears" because people just have a different playstyle...they themselves call the PvP players Greifers and Gankers because ironically enough, they have a different playstyle
Let me say this though, you did get one thing right. "A game is where people go to have fun", and just like some people buy Fords and some people buy Chevys, PvPers don't want to play PvE games. Let us have our "total joke" of a game and don't complain
As for the Driver and GTA games. I could argue the same thing for MMO's, you aren't actually hurting someone. You may kill their pixelated character that they are controlling, but you aren't actually hurting them. If they get stressed out over it then I'm sorry but it's not my problem.
Well.... If someone broke into your house and stole your HDTV they aren't really hurting you either. You're perfectly healthy. You just lost something that worked for several hours to get. If you get stressed out over it then I'm sorry, but that's not my problem
That is a risk you took when you CHOSE to play the game, and it has nothing to do with real life.
And if a woman gets raped, that's a risk she chose to take when she wore that short, short skirt. Seriously though, choosing to play a game doesn't obligate one to continue playing. Thus many people quit and leave the l33tz to their own circle jerk of psuedo-masculinity. And you should be happy about that since you claim to hate carebears so much. Rejoice!! The carebears don't want to play with you and will go somewhere els.
Finally I would like to say that I think you have a misconception about FFA PvP. It's not about ruining someone's day, it's about the competition.
Really? That's why you're all massed together in AC, Shadowbane, and Lineage 2. All of those games are about level and loot. There is no way in hell that a lvl 1 character can defeat a group of players at the level cap. End of line. As for your comparison to boss monsters, I'd like to state that bosses are generally not more than 5 or ten levels higher than any character in the group and there are usually only one or two of them. And no, it doesn't take skill. The deciding factor in boss battles are how well stocked the party is with heal items, the number of buffs before combat, and of course how each character supports the others during the battle. Just have your attackers use their most powerful attack with their most powerful weapons while the healers keep the party from dying. Then it's just a matter of using buff and healing items periodically until whatever you're killing is no more.
Face it, the only reason you play PvP in an MMORPG is so you can kill lowbies and then talk shit about how uber you are. Go play America's Army, Counter-Strike, Age of Mythology, Mortal Kombat: Deception (or just wait for Samurai Showdown 5 if you have an XBox ), or any NWN PvP server and you'll learn what uber really is. BTW, most NWN PvP servers restrict PKing to players that are +- 5 levels of yourself. Just thought you might like to know that.
I guess we all have to cross our fingers and hope Darkfall's release isnt as bug ridden as Shadowbanes was.
Anyways, for all wondering what exactly killed FFA PvP is simple. Items. All these cross breed aka carebear MMORPG's focus on getting the most uber lewt. Sometimes that can take weeks if not months.
I will give Everquest for an example since that is the game I spent most of my time camping for items. It took me 3 weeks to get my Journey Man boot's for my Necro (boots that make you run ALOT Faster.) 3 weeks! Now, if there was a chance that some guy could come and 2 hit me and take them after I spent all that time aquiring them would make anyone quit. Now in order for a FFA PvP be acceptable to a lot of people items would need to be a lot easier to aquire. Like Shadowbane was. All the equipment I had I could afford 3 times over if I ever died enough times to have them destroyed.
Unfortunetly, with all the potetential Shadowbane had, it was a buggy piece of alpha when it was released and cities took months to build while a guild could destroy it in 3 days or less.
Originally posted by kilaan I will give Everquest for an example since that is the game I spent most of my time camping for items. It took me 3 weeks to get my Journey Man boot's for my Necro (boots that make you run ALOT Faster.) 3 weeks! Now, if there was a chance that some guy could come and 2 hit me and take them after I spent all that time aquiring them would make anyone quit.
That would make sense, except that there were level limits within PvP on the FFA server. It was 6 limits either way for a long time. Then it was 4, which is the current limit on Zek, which is an FFA server.
4 levels either way isn't much in low-mid levels. Right now, there's no looting though.. the PvP is pretty pointless, but at least you can kill someone who you don't like. It's still got the guild vs guild politics, though not as good as they were on RZ.
MMORPG were made too be community based not made to be a bunch of lil 14 year old jerks runnin around rampant tryin to sprout their ego about and pvp should be about skill and honor not about gankin others loot.
I dont mind the open ended pvp it can be fun but only on a free to play online game paying the amount it takes to play and build up a character to get it yanked will just force people to quit the pay to play games.Anyone who thinks otherwise chances are they are them 14 year olds who still have mom and dad payin their game fees.
Originally posted by Rammur MMORPG were made too be community based not made to be a bunch of lil 14 year old jerks runnin around rampant tryin to sprout their ego about and pvp should be about skill and honor not about gankin others loot.
I dont mind the open ended pvp it can be fun but only on a free to play online game paying the amount it takes to play and build up a character to get it yanked will just force people to quit the pay to play games.Anyone who thinks otherwise chances are they are them 14 year olds who still have mom and dad payin their game fees.
I have never found a more community based game that Shadowbane when I found a good guild. We were a such small tight knit guild that we were talking to each for a year after we all quit. Its amazing what kinds of friendships can be forged locked up in the church waiting for 3 groups of PKers to get bored and leave our tree of life.
Seems like way too many people take games to seriously. Some are even comparing ingame items and RL stuff. If you feel this way why do you even play the game? it seems to me like it's your second job.
Originally posted by DamonVile The only reason I can think of why people want/need looting is because beating someone isn't enough for you. You need to know you've ruined the other persons day/game. You've done more then win, you've proven you're better, and you've caused them grief.
Everyone in this thread has seemed to miss the most compelling reason for FFA PVP. It's not getting rich, griefing, gaining power, boosting self-esteem, or any of the reasons previously mentinoned as to why it should exist in a good RPG.
It's the roleplay that begs for this. Simply put, FFA PVP is more realistic than the other systems. If you want total immersion, you must have a world as much like the real world as possible (ok, you know what I mean, not the REAL world.)
Now how realistic do we make these games? I, for one, don't want to have to take a leak on the dungeon wall each time I down a bottle of whiskey. But a game whose purpose is to kill stuff and amass treasure sure seems unrealistic when you can't kill and take the treasure of the people who you are playing with.
I wish I could disassociate myself from most of the PvP-FFA players in this thread. Not the previous poster or anything, just the ones that are insulting.
I want to point out something that every MMORPG fan will appreciate and what you'll see in a true FFA-MMO.
Guilds, and alliances in FFA-PvP are so tight and helpful that people in PvE that try the games are astonished. Players in your guild will set everything aside to come to your rescue. They'll stand guard on lower levels that are getting harrassed and they'll go to war if someone targets an innocent in the guild.
The pride you get from having your own city isn't even comparable to that in a PvE game. It all comes together into what seems so concrete and important that it infuses the game with roleplaying. Just as an example I posted interest in finding a guild for Darkfall and I received many messages, all from roleplaying guilds wanting me. I never posted I wanted a roleplaying guild even.
Roleplaying is at the heart of PvP-FFA, the community is what Most MMORPG players dream of.
The challenge in PvP, especially ffa is so much greater. Given even skill every 1v1 is a 50/50 shot, you can't want too much more challenge than that. Most of the people that played UO or AC, or Shadowbane, if you got past the horrible start will agree with me.
There are people that just want to kill you to ruin your day but the faction penalty and guild setup pretty much ensure that it's not rampant. I can't stand the trash talk and the lack of honor many of the FFA pvp'rs show but the truth is that they are a tiny minority however vocal they are.
EQ2 is going to try FFA PvP. I can't say that I am happy about it, but SOE is apparently going to try it. Fortunetly, it will be on separate servers. They say the PvP balance will not affect the PvE balance. We will just have to wait and see.
====================== It's just me, so open the door.
It is hard to find, but I think the time of the FFA is coming soon.
I think WoW was a simplistic game but one positive thing they did was expose a lot of new players to PvP. I think that from that will come a number of hard core ffa-pvp players that will see the value. I think the mass joining to the PvP-RP servers point toward an increase in interest.
I think Darkfall right now is the most promising but who knows. RF, Auto Assault, even DnL all point toward more interest in PvP. Each of those games will spawn people who want a more intense level of PvP and RP.
I think as soon as a game comes out that has that certain something that makes a game special there will be an explosion of subscribers. Maybe not to the level of WoW but enough to keep a persistant world of FFA-PvP.
Right now I'm just waiting for a game that launches without the crashing and bugs so prevalent in almost every ffa-pvp game since UO.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe chs5138 wrote: As for the Driver and GTA games. I could argue the same thing for MMO's, you aren't actually hurting someone. You may kill their pixelated character that they are controlling, but you aren't actually hurting them. If they get stressed out over it then I'm sorry but it's not my problem. Well.... If someone broke into your house and stole your HDTV they aren't really hurting you either. You're perfectly healthy. You just lost something that worked for several hours to get. If you get stressed out over it then I'm sorry, but that's not my problem That is a risk you took when you CHOSE to play the game, and it has nothing to do with real life. And if a woman gets raped, that's a risk she chose to take when she wore that short, short skirt. Seriously though, choosing to play a game doesn't obligate one to continue playing. Thus many people quit and leave the l33tz to their own circle jerk of psuedo-masculinity. And you should be happy about that since you claim to hate carebears so much. Rejoice!! The carebears don't want to play with you and will go somewhere els.
Finally I would like to say that I think you have a misconception about FFA PvP. It's not about ruining someone's day, it's about the competition. Really? That's why you're all massed together in AC, Shadowbane, and Lineage 2. All of those games are about level and loot. There is no way in hell that a lvl 1 character can defeat a group of players at the level cap. End of line. As for your comparison to boss monsters, I'd like to state that bosses are generally not more than 5 or ten levels higher than any character in the group and there are usually only one or two of them. And no, it doesn't take skill. The deciding factor in boss battles are how well stocked the party is with heal items, the number of buffs before combat, and of course how each character supports the others during the battle. Just have your attackers use their most powerful attack with their most powerful weapons while the healers keep the party from dying. Then it's just a matter of using buff and healing items periodically until whatever you're killing is no more. Face it, the only reason you play PvP in an MMORPG is so you can kill lowbies and then talk shit about how uber you are. Go play America's Army, Counter-Strike, Age of Mythology, Mortal Kombat: Deception (or just wait for Samurai Showdown 5 if you have an XBox ), or any NWN PvP server and you'll learn what uber really is. BTW, most NWN PvP servers restrict PKing to players that are +- 5 levels of yourself. Just thought you might like to know that.
hmm...it seems you took my point as literal as you could. In a game you accept the risk of having your HDTV stolen when you buy, install, click on the ToS agreement, and play the game. It is completely different from real life
So what you're saying is that a woman who wears a mini skirt and a tank top out in public is accepting the risk? Forgive me for saying this, but that is retarded. Let me put it real simple for you. A woman can wear whatever she wants in the real world because that is her freedom. Real Life rape is against the law...where as PKing someone in an open PvP game is not...it's completely within the game mechanics and it is kind of what the game is about.
Honestly if you can't understand this VERY SIMPLE concept then you need help distinguishing real life from fantasy.
I don't hate "carebears" all of my RL friends who play MMOs play PvE games and I don't think I hate them. Not to mention the fact that I have stated multiple times in this thread that I realize there are 2 very different playstyles, and the "carebear" playstyle is not for me.
All games are about level and loot whether they are PvE or PvP. Those boss monsters may only be 10 levels higher but it takes a group of people to beat it. Let me use Shadowbane as an example...The level cap is 75 so no you are not going to compete at level 1, the use of that in an arguement is moronic at best. However, once you get to lvl 50 (R5) you can compete in high level PvP. High end equipment will give you an advantage but it doesn't mean you are going to win...and once you hit lvl 60 you can really compete with anyone. Not to mention it is possible (with some hardcore PLing) to go from 1-75 inside of 2 days, plus it's not hard to get high end gear in the game. Obviously you have never played shadowbane so your statement was one of ignorance.
You just said how all these PvP games are all about level and loot and then you go on to say that defeating a boss monster in a PvE game is all about how well equipped your party is? It's the SAME THING. Only I have given proof
Again you are making ignorant statements. Granted my play time in Shadowbane has been limited the last few months. Every battle I have been in has been one with multiple high level groups on each side (actually significantly more on the other side as the asian players all stick together). The last time I went out and killed a lowbie was before guild wars had come out
edit: oh yea, there was a server migration in shadowbane early this year. My guild had about 15 members (which slowly declined) and we were the 2nd to last guild to fall into one of the server alliances
On page 7 is a post I found very interesting, written by one Greyhammer.
This post outlines an idea and states an example of its actual successful implementation. But the immediate response, and I do not say this to offend, is the message: "Keep your hands and feet inside the box at all times".
The concept is permadeath. The response was outright negative. The post actually described a success.
Statements (I've avoided the use of quotes because it doesn't matter who said it): "Here is the major flaw in your PvP (perma-death) world:"
"Organized guilds will have free reign on killing newbies." Yes, they will. But organized guilds will want to grow stronger. How do they do that? Kill newbies? The gain will not be substantial. In fact, you gain more strength by offering them support and advantages, and having them fight for you. And maybe they'll be willing to risk their own lives for your guild so that you live to see another day.
"Newbies who havent found a guild to join in that server would be like sheep to be slaughtered." Forcing some community, eh? It is a point. But then, you did just get yourself into a game where as good as nobody chose to stand alone, so you knew you had it coming. Unless you prove yourself unworthy (most likely by bringing harm to your own guild) you are likely to be welcomed into the guild of your own choice. Maybe not just any, but there will be enough who can't afford to say no.
"Newbies having a hard time, so they quit." Newbies who seek to kill from minute one will have a hard time. Newbies who let that fellow talk (both/all sides will likely prefer to "outbid" the other rather than killing you) might be off to a good start right away.
"MMORPG developers not getting enough new player base to pay for development." That's perhaps the greatest challenge when you try to make a game outside the box.
------------------
This is, of course, just my humble opinion. And if I understood Greyhammer right: A game that succeeded. Think of it. Consider the possibility.
Next. Consider the excitement. You will not be über, you cannot just go off and do anything. Even killing lowbies and outright newbies might get you into trouble. You will depend upon skill, or good decisions, and probably upon your friends. If you die, you lose it all (and must create a new character, I expect). However, if your enemy dies, he loses it all. And your enemy will have to risk his life to kill you. Therefore, your life won't be threatened that often, and might not at all, if you do not willingly expose yourself (make yourself an easy target, insult somebody, kill somebody, cause difficulties).
Also, permadeath allows for a coherent storyline to develop, if one wants that kind of thing. PVP as an action tool is one thing. I'm personally more interested in PVP as a natural part of roleplaying. I say roleplaying, and mean the projection of a character with depth and possibly purpose into the gaming world.
I am a "follower" of Adellion, a game in development which is reviewed on MMORPG.COM, where permadeath is a fact (although there will be some protection in case people went linkdead or were otherwise "inappropriately" killed). It will not be the perfect action game, it does not focus on action (note that it will have action), but it will be an excellent roleplaying game. When somebody dies, it might be a murder. And murder means actual death. The local community doesn't get that fellow back. The game is designed so that players will assume leadership roles and run the whole economy.
There have been other games trying to do what Adellion does, or similar things, but they have not succeeded. Most have either given up, or ended up somewhere in the box afterall. The Adellion developers (and fanbase) are very clear on what they want. They want the game they will love to play. And economy is a challenge. But the Adellion team is realistic, and they know where they stand. They know what they can do and what they can't do, and therefore they are likely to make it.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I consider myself a very open person and I'll entertain the most ridiculous concepts. That said I find Permadeath on a PvP server to be completely impossible.
The very best PvP contest is a max level fully developed and skilled person versus another max level fully developed and equally skilled person.
That's where you see the best attacks and defenses, the most creative and strategic use of skills. I think even the most gank-ready PvP player would agree that winning a fight like that is what it's all about. In this kind of match the win-loss percentage is 50/50.
Permadeath would create the exact world that nobody would want to play it. Ganking would be the only type of PvP for anyone of any skill. Whole guilds would fall and never rise again if they lost a real battle. I can't imagine any form of Permadeath FFA-PvP.
I was quite suddenly and unexpectedly struck by an urge to do something constructive. Something very specific. Draw an outline of the PvP (action focused) game I'd like to play. The Revival of FFA PvP!
Features (or lack thereof)
Permadeath
Experience from PvP (and any PvE)
Few powerful items, none outright superior
Moderate difference between high and low levels
Realistic encumbrance (or disadvantages to heavy equipment/loot)
Additional (not as important, more specific)
Law enforcement in populated areas (NPCs round the clock because you shouldn't be more exposed because some player logged out, a force would always be maintained).
Few or no NPCs created solely to be killed
No "famous" NPCs (unique creatures) that may respawn if killed
Tactical weapons and skills
Permadeath
While you can do well without it, you cannot get it right without it. The ultimate loss isn't your gear, it isn't your XP, it is you.
Experience from PvP
One kill is as good as another. I can see troubles with this one, but I think the clever and inventive can make it work. I don't even think it would take all that much. The more people who aim to play the game rather than beat the game, the better this will work.
Low power in items
You shouldn't have to acquire a specific weapon to be a challenge. Acquiring a weapon should do. And it is more realistic too... You'll be good to go for a fight earlier, and even a big guy should think twice.
Moderate level difference
The challenge remains for the experienced players, and the opportunity is still there for the weaker ones. This also allows weaker players to be a valuable resource. While they are behind, they aren't far behind, and the one most daring, or cunning, might be the one most valuable.
Also, this serves to ameliorate the agony of death. You're not "worthless" until you've gone back up the grind.
Realistic encumbrance
It should be a tactical decision. That heavy armour makes you slower. It is easier to hit you, but harder to cause any damage. If you're likely to get hit much anyhow, then you will need its protection. If you trust your lightning reflexes, you might want something light. Also, running with much gear / loot should decrease stamina faster, forcing you to slow down sooner.
Law enforcement in populated areas
This should require some manner of monetary contribution, and be directed by the leaders of that area. Law enforcers should possess no advantage over players. They might be allowed, by the leader, to function as bandits. But if the leader doesn't protect the local community, the local community will disappear. The local community should be what feeds the leader cash to pay his goons. And so they will abandon him. A leader must be dependent on his followers.
Don't scream carebear. Guards are there not only to protect, but also to challenge. If you kill somebody who chooses to remain within safety of the city, and if your are spotted, then they could be upon you. And maybe there would be a bounty upon your head too. Players would have a strong incentive to gang up and kill you - legally, without guards coming to get them. That's a tougher game.
Few or no NPCs solely to be killed
Because PvP is, ultimately more entertaining - and yes: Challenging. An AI is no match for that brain of yours.
No unique NPCs may respawn
I like my games immersive. "Did you kill Thorax the Great Wyrm?" "Yes." "So did I, it nearly got me, though." (I know most don't talk like this).
Tactical weapons and skills
The rules are: Whenever you advance, you can choose in what areas, to customize yourself. This should have a significant effect.
I'll line up some weapons and relate some skills you could advance in, and you'll see what I mean.
Some general skills / stats:
Stamina - to flee the scene or the enemy, he better not outlast you!
Evasion - counters the accuracy of an attack (fewer hits)
Toughness - some people can simply stand more pain (buy the difference must not be huge)
Unarmed accuracy - helps you hit, allows for trickier moves that hurt more at high skill
Strength - improves damage to most melee combat
Perception - improves likelihood of spotting concealed items
Conceal item - use it to smuggle out a gem of particular value, or some stolen cash. Or to smuggle in a dagger, or something else that is light and small.
Dagger: Small, easily concealed, doesn't require a strong arm. (Maybe also: Leaves you somewhat exposed to longer weapons in melee, or lower on defense that with other weapons)
Related skills would be: Melee (light) and "conceal item".
Crossbow: Obviously a ranged weapon. Maybe there exist a small version that can be concealed. A very simple weapon to use. Can be fired from horseback (if horses exist). All crossbows are slow to reload compared to bows, but bows require more training.
Skill: Ranged weapons
Longbow: That's a specialist's weapon. It won't do you much good unless you are well trained to it, and it is at best tricky to fire from horseback.
Skill: Ranged weapons, penalties at low skill levels
Why conceal a weapon? Betrayal. You agree to meet someone unarmed, and you catch him by surprise. Or the guards of a town are instructed to permit no weapons, and you need to sneak it past them. They might demand your backpack for inspection (you should have the ability to "permit view"), but that sneaky dagger-in-boot tricked them.
You get the choices of flexibility and power. You can be the tower of power with your greatsword and field plate, but if the others flee, you will be sagging behind, all by your lonesome.
You can devote your life to mastering the longbow, but if the enemy ever closes up, you need to run.
You can be a decent melee and ranged fighter, and perhaps use a lighter armour, but then you will excel in nothing. Versatility and adaptability is your tool, and if anybody is ever in need of a single man to solve a problem... Make a move.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Originally posted by asdar I consider myself a very open person and I'll entertain the most ridiculous concepts. That said I find Permadeath on a PvP server to be completely impossible. The very best PvP contest is a max level fully developed and skilled person versus another max level fully developed and equally skilled person. That's where you see the best attacks and defenses, the most creative and strategic use of skills. I think even the most gank-ready PvP player would agree that winning a fight like that is what it's all about. In this kind of match the win-loss percentage is 50/50. Permadeath would create the exact world that nobody would want to play it. Ganking would be the only type of PvP for anyone of any skill. Whole guilds would fall and never rise again if they lost a real battle. I can't imagine any form of Permadeath FFA-PvP.
You're entitled to your opinion. However, there are many people who are disillusioned with current concepts. Has a permadeath game to this point been so successful that you have actually tried it? Most never come into existence.
But the loss of a character isn't the end of a game. It is the end of a chapter, and the beginning of a new one. Sounds silly and clich
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
So what you're saying is that a woman who wears a mini skirt and a tank top out in public is accepting the risk? Forgive me for saying this, but that is retarded.
I followed that starment up with a sentence that started with the words "but seriously". Aparently you can't understand SIMPLE concepts like sarcasm.
All games are about level and loot whether they are PvE or PvP.
Uh.... Quake 4 and Age of Mythology are about level and loot? I think you want to change that to "all RPGs are about level and loot." It's exactly this reason that I don't take PvP in MMORPGs seriously. If it were truely a contest of skill, I would be much more accepting. It's not, so I'm not. To be honest, Roma Victor and Auto Assault appear to be the only PvP MMOs that I would even consider playing mainly due to the twitch nature of their combat systems.
Let me use Shadowbane as an example...The level cap is 75 so no you are not going to compete at level 1, the use of that in an arguement is moronic at best.
If it were truely a game of skill between two players, a level 1 player could take on a level 75 player and win. It would be rough, but possible. This isn't a game of skill, so it isn't even remotely possible.
However, once you get to lvl 50 (R5) you can compete in high level PvP.
And on your journey to level 50 you'll be zerged, ganked, and insulted by wandering groups of level 50+ players that just want to greif you because they can. Honor? Nigga PUH-LEEZ!!!
High end equipment will give you an advantage but it doesn't mean you are going to win...and once you hit lvl 60 you can really compete with anyone.
Quick thing about good PvP: equipment should simply support a particular playstyle, not give unfair numeric advantages to one player or another. The fact that you have to level to 60 before you can compete defeats your arguement about compitition. If you can't compete until level 60, then you should make it impossible to attack anyone under level 60 and prevent anyone under level 60 from attacking you. If you were really looking for compitition, this idea wouldn't bother you in the slightest. You're not, so I'm assuming that you'll cry like I just shot off your big toe.
Not to mention it is possible (with some hardcore PLing) to go from 1-75 inside of 2 days, plus it's not hard to get high end gear in the game. Obviously
By "hardcore" playing I assume that you mean staying planted at your computer for a full 48 hours. If the PvP was worth it's salt you could be competitive right out of the gate. This isn't about skill or intelligence, it's about grinding up to a point where you can kill lowbies to make up for your obvious RL shortcommings.
Obviously you have never played shadowbane so your statement was one of ignorance.
No, I never played Shadowbane. I took it off the shelf, looked at the back of it, said to myself "oh, an EQ clone", and promptly put it back on the shelf. I then went on to by Tribes: Vengence. Damn glad I made the right choice
I have played AC and Lineage 2. They both repeat the same lack of depth in combat and hence make it impossible for a well outfitted group with exceptional teamwork to take down three times their number of opponents that are 20+ levels above them. From what I've seen in Shadowbane guild vids and heard on the forums, as well as mined from Stratics, Shadowbane is no different. Then again, I never played it.
Equipment with different functions / advantages, not overall superiority
I wrote a lot earlier, so I thought I'd put it in short.
And I believe Jimmy has a few very good points.
Only thing is I'm a bit sad to see this argument about who said what and who's being unfair and psychopathic to whom.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Well.... If someone broke into your house and stole your HDTV they aren't really hurting you either. You're perfectly healthy. You just lost something that worked for several hours to get. If you get stressed out over it then I'm sorry, but that's not my problem
...Wow.
Shocking, I thought I'd never see this before. Someone who can't understand that a game is...Oh my Gawwwdddddd...A GAME!
Go forward and trek that unchartered land of reality...
Next person that compares real life illegal, violent, and immoral acts, to a game, trying to pretend that they can be even REMOTELY similar, will find torture and death at the means and ways of a soldering iron, and acid.
It's no wonder people bitch so much when they die at the hands of a mob, or a PK'er: They can't disassimilate their connection, and ultimate blurring of fiction, and reality.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Comments
I know I'm a tad late, but I see this old dog is being prodded again...
Now, first and foremost, a game is where people go to have fun, anyone who denies them that right should therefore have THEIR right to play revoked or otherwise suspended.
FFA PvP in a MMORPG is a complete and total joke, and of course a far-off dream. It is just too unbalanced, biased, and prone to fail to be worth spending millions of dollars on, only to have it crash and burn like UO did (Face it, the griefers and gankers put the spear through its heart). Like many, many have stated, there is not challenge in FFA PvP in an MMORPG, unless you turned it into full action, where every move is decided by the player and is carried out instantly (Sword slashes and parrys) and a severely well developed skill system with an equally developed law and order system.
Now, about carebears, I stand by my belief that people who call people that are, forgive my rudeness, mentally retarded and unable to grip the (harsh?) truth that some people don't like to PvP like you do! Lord, Leave them alone already, what did they ever do to you? They like to PvP sometimes, under controlled circumstances, but my God, there are other playstyles other than yours!
In conclusion, if you can't deal with the fact that there is no such thing as Hardcore or Carebear, and that not everyone likes FFA PvP because it usually is unbalanced and done to ruin someone elses fun, then you just may be a nerd who needs to get a life.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Well first off I would like to say I'm glad that those sadistic thoughts weren't truly meaningful. However, as far as being ironic it just doesn't compare. Trying to compare Real Life to a Video Game is well stupid. For instance, in a FFA PvP game you are voluntareily playing (and paying for) a game in which the objective is to kill whoever you want. When I play Shadowbane (or whatever other FFA game I have played), I know and fully expect to have 1 or more people come out and start attacking me. This is the type of game I am choosing to play and the game I am willingly paying for. In real you know that a bunch of guys can jump out and mug you, but you don't expect it. I know I could be run over by a car tomorrow or suffer a stroke walking down the street. These are all things you don't have any control over, whereas in a game (again) you are willingly playing and paying to play that game.
As for the Driver and GTA games. I could argue the same thing for MMO's, you aren't actually hurting someone. You may kill their pixelated character that they are controlling, but you aren't actually hurting them. If they get stressed out over it then I'm sorry but it's not my problem. That is a risk you took when you CHOSE to play the game, and it has nothing to do with real life. To take the actual words even more in depth MMORPG.
Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Not only are you chosing to play this game, but because of the genre you are also chosing to play a role, some chose to play the role of evil others play the role of the hero.
When you click on that ToS agreement you are agreeing to play the game. Lets say that there was an MMO created where you could play as a midget or a gangster. Whoever choses the midget knows by accepting to play this game they are at risk of being mugged by the gangster. This is completely different from the real life model because the midget never had the choice to simply not play the game so he wouldn't be mugged by the gangster.
Finally I would like to say that I think you have a misconception about FFA PvP. It's not about ruining someone's day, it's about the competition. Just like the Everquest player who enjoys the challenge of killing some level 60 dragon, I enjoy the challenge of fighting real people in a game. I don't really go out with the intent of ruining someones day, though I don't feel any remorse if I did because it's just a game and they'll get over it.
PvP is the challenge of facing a live opponent in a simulated atmoshpere, or fighting an opponent in an enemy guild whom you are fighting over some location on the map. It's the same reason people would rather play multiplayer Halo than play the single player missions...or you do online clan battles.
No, I don't need a cookie but thanks for asking, what I was saying was: I wouldn't have bothered much about that one post but then I got your gist from other posts and all I saw was arrogance and conceitedness (and yes, I know what they mean).
Anyway, IF you were joking...IF!...then I appologize. I can take a joke, but next time, when you're joking, with a one-line dismissive statement personally calling someone, who was just stating facts, a name that is widely held as a derisive term, then maybe you should put a
or a 
after it so that people will know (and won't question whether you're calling it a joke after the fact).
All right? Champ?
(See...that there is condescension...but the tongue smiley after it makes it a joke 
. And that was sarcasm, but the wink after it makes sure that everyone knows that. 
)
You sure? Cookies are good.
I really don't see how you saw arrogance and conceit in my other posts, recalling from memory as I'm too lazy atm to go search for them, my posts were saying that the reason a lot of FFA MMO's die is because people complaining about a game that never really fit their playstyle in the first place. I don't really think I came off as condescending towards the PvE playerbase. I think that they should do a little more research into games before they go and play them and if they do play the game and don't like it because it is completely different from the game you want to play...don't complain. Just quit and find a game that is more suitable to you
I would think to be arrogant I would have said something like "PvErs suck and are just scared of a challenge"
a couple of points here. The PvPers here aren't the ones saying that "carebears" (PvErs) are wrong in their style of play. WE have been the ones stateing that there are 2 very distinct and different styles of play.
"FFA PvP is a joke" That is well wrong. There are a couple of ways to interpret Balance and Bias the way you used them so I will be making assumptions.
By unbalance I guess you are referring to higher levels haveing an advantage in pvp. Makes sense to me though. By bias I'm assuming you are meaning bias towards the PvP players. Again makes sense to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong on either of these.
You people seem to be assuming that everyone who plays an FFA PvP only attacks lower level characters (which there is some truth behind this because guess what, it's FFA PvP, kill whoever you please whenever you please). And yes it is a challenge and does take skill. In a PvE game what makes an NPC hard to beat? The answer is that creatures level, the equipment it has, and the abilities it has because of it's level. In PvP you have all these factors PLUS the human mind.
Forgive me if I'm wrong here (I'm going to make what seems to be a very logical assumption) but I'm guessing that people who say "PvPers lack skill" and "People only PK you to ruin your game experience" have either never played a PvP game or played a PvP game, got killed, got pissed off, and then decided that those type of players suck or whatever.
The PvP playerbase calls the PvE players carebears. However, the hypocrisy of it all is those same people who hate being called "carebears" because people just have a different playstyle...they themselves call the PvP players Greifers and Gankers because ironically enough, they have a different playstyle
Let me say this though, you did get one thing right. "A game is where people go to have fun", and just like some people buy Fords and some people buy Chevys, PvPers don't want to play PvE games. Let us have our "total joke" of a game and don't complain
chs5138 wrote:
As for the Driver and GTA games. I could argue the same thing for MMO's, you aren't actually hurting someone. You may kill their pixelated character that they are controlling, but you aren't actually hurting them. If they get stressed out over it then I'm sorry but it's not my problem.
Well.... If someone broke into your house and stole your HDTV they aren't really hurting you either. You're perfectly healthy. You just lost something that worked for several hours to get. If you get stressed out over it then I'm sorry, but that's not my problem
That is a risk you took when you CHOSE to play the game, and it has nothing to do with real life.
And if a woman gets raped, that's a risk she chose to take when she wore that short, short skirt. Seriously though, choosing to play a game doesn't obligate one to continue playing. Thus many people quit and leave the l33tz to their own circle jerk of psuedo-masculinity. And you should be happy about that since you claim to hate carebears so much. Rejoice!! The carebears don't want to play with you and will go somewhere els.
Finally I would like to say that I think you have a misconception about FFA PvP. It's not about ruining someone's day, it's about the competition.
Really? That's why you're all massed together in AC, Shadowbane, and Lineage 2. All of those games are about level and loot. There is no way in hell that a lvl 1 character can defeat a group of players at the level cap. End of line. As for your comparison to boss monsters, I'd like to state that bosses are generally not more than 5 or ten levels higher than any character in the group and there are usually only one or two of them. And no, it doesn't take skill. The deciding factor in boss battles are how well stocked the party is with heal items, the number of buffs before combat, and of course how each character supports the others during the battle. Just have your attackers use their most powerful attack with their most powerful weapons while the healers keep the party from dying. Then it's just a matter of using buff and healing items periodically until whatever you're killing is no more.
Face it, the only reason you play PvP in an MMORPG is so you can kill lowbies and then talk shit about how uber you are. Go play America's Army, Counter-Strike, Age of Mythology, Mortal Kombat: Deception (or just wait for Samurai Showdown 5 if you have an XBox
), or any NWN PvP server and you'll learn what uber really is. BTW, most NWN PvP servers restrict PKing to players that are +- 5 levels of yourself. Just thought you might like to know that.
I guess we all have to cross our fingers and hope Darkfall's release isnt as bug ridden as Shadowbanes was.
Anyways, for all wondering what exactly killed FFA PvP is simple. Items. All these cross breed aka carebear MMORPG's focus on getting the most uber lewt. Sometimes that can take weeks if not months.
I will give Everquest for an example since that is the game I spent most of my time camping for items. It took me 3 weeks to get my Journey Man boot's for my Necro (boots that make you run ALOT Faster.) 3 weeks! Now, if there was a chance that some guy could come and 2 hit me and take them after I spent all that time aquiring them would make anyone quit. Now in order for a FFA PvP be acceptable to a lot of people items would need to be a lot easier to aquire. Like Shadowbane was. All the equipment I had I could afford 3 times over if I ever died enough times to have them destroyed.
Unfortunetly, with all the potetential Shadowbane had, it was a buggy piece of alpha when it was released and cities took months to build while a guild could destroy it in 3 days or less.
That would make sense, except that there were level limits within PvP on the FFA server. It was 6 limits either way for a long time. Then it was 4, which is the current limit on Zek, which is an FFA server.
4 levels either way isn't much in low-mid levels. Right now, there's no looting though.. the PvP is pretty pointless, but at least you can kill someone who you don't like. It's still got the guild vs guild politics, though not as good as they were on RZ.
MMORPG were made too be community based not made to be a bunch of lil 14 year old jerks runnin around rampant tryin to sprout their ego about and pvp should be about skill and honor not about gankin others loot.
I dont mind the open ended pvp it can be fun but only on a free to play online game paying the amount it takes to play and build up a character to get it yanked will just force people to quit the pay to play games.Anyone who thinks otherwise chances are they are them 14 year olds who still have mom and dad payin their game fees.
Seems like way too many people take games to seriously. Some are even comparing ingame items and RL stuff. If you feel this way why do you even play the game? it seems to me like it's your second job.
Everyone in this thread has seemed to miss the most compelling reason for FFA PVP. It's not getting rich, griefing, gaining power, boosting self-esteem, or any of the reasons previously mentinoned as to why it should exist in a good RPG.
It's the roleplay that begs for this. Simply put, FFA PVP is more realistic than the other systems. If you want total immersion, you must have a world as much like the real world as possible (ok, you know what I mean, not the REAL world.)
Now how realistic do we make these games? I, for one, don't want to have to take a leak on the dungeon wall each time I down a bottle of whiskey. But a game whose purpose is to kill stuff and amass treasure sure seems unrealistic when you can't kill and take the treasure of the people who you are playing with.
I wish I could disassociate myself from most of the PvP-FFA players in this thread. Not the previous poster or anything, just the ones that are insulting.
I want to point out something that every MMORPG fan will appreciate and what you'll see in a true FFA-MMO.
Guilds, and alliances in FFA-PvP are so tight and helpful that people in PvE that try the games are astonished. Players in your guild will set everything aside to come to your rescue. They'll stand guard on lower levels that are getting harrassed and they'll go to war if someone targets an innocent in the guild.
The pride you get from having your own city isn't even comparable to that in a PvE game. It all comes together into what seems so concrete and important that it infuses the game with roleplaying. Just as an example I posted interest in finding a guild for Darkfall and I received many messages, all from roleplaying guilds wanting me. I never posted I wanted a roleplaying guild even.
Roleplaying is at the heart of PvP-FFA, the community is what Most MMORPG players dream of.
The challenge in PvP, especially ffa is so much greater. Given even skill every 1v1 is a 50/50 shot, you can't want too much more challenge than that. Most of the people that played UO or AC, or Shadowbane, if you got past the horrible start will agree with me.
There are people that just want to kill you to ruin your day but the faction penalty and guild setup pretty much ensure that it's not rampant. I can't stand the trash talk and the lack of honor many of the FFA pvp'rs show but the truth is that they are a tiny minority however vocal they are.
Asdar
This thread is still going? The passions of this topic are unbelievable.
I am a avid non-pvper so I will keep all comments to myself, but I just wanted to say there are some very good arguments throughout this thread.
EQ2 is going to try FFA PvP. I can't say that I am happy about it, but SOE is apparently going to try it. Fortunetly, it will be on separate servers. They say the PvP balance will not affect the PvE balance. We will just have to wait and see.
======================
It's just me, so open the door.
It is hard to find, but I think the time of the FFA is coming soon.
I think WoW was a simplistic game but one positive thing they did was expose a lot of new players to PvP. I think that from that will come a number of hard core ffa-pvp players that will see the value. I think the mass joining to the PvP-RP servers point toward an increase in interest.
I think Darkfall right now is the most promising but who knows. RF, Auto Assault, even DnL all point toward more interest in PvP. Each of those games will spawn people who want a more intense level of PvP and RP.
I think as soon as a game comes out that has that certain something that makes a game special there will be an explosion of subscribers. Maybe not to the level of WoW but enough to keep a persistant world of FFA-PvP.
Right now I'm just waiting for a game that launches without the crashing and bugs so prevalent in almost every ffa-pvp game since UO.
Asdar
hmm...it seems you took my point as literal as you could. In a game you accept the risk of having your HDTV stolen when you buy, install, click on the ToS agreement, and play the game. It is completely different from real life
So what you're saying is that a woman who wears a mini skirt and a tank top out in public is accepting the risk? Forgive me for saying this, but that is retarded. Let me put it real simple for you. A woman can wear whatever she wants in the real world because that is her freedom. Real Life rape is against the law...where as PKing someone in an open PvP game is not...it's completely within the game mechanics and it is kind of what the game is about.
Honestly if you can't understand this VERY SIMPLE concept then you need help distinguishing real life from fantasy.
I don't hate "carebears" all of my RL friends who play MMOs play PvE games and I don't think I hate them. Not to mention the fact that I have stated multiple times in this thread that I realize there are 2 very different playstyles, and the "carebear" playstyle is not for me.
All games are about level and loot whether they are PvE or PvP. Those boss monsters may only be 10 levels higher but it takes a group of people to beat it. Let me use Shadowbane as an example...The level cap is 75 so no you are not going to compete at level 1, the use of that in an arguement is moronic at best. However, once you get to lvl 50 (R5) you can compete in high level PvP. High end equipment will give you an advantage but it doesn't mean you are going to win...and once you hit lvl 60 you can really compete with anyone. Not to mention it is possible (with some hardcore PLing) to go from 1-75 inside of 2 days, plus it's not hard to get high end gear in the game. Obviously you have never played shadowbane so your statement was one of ignorance.
You just said how all these PvP games are all about level and loot and then you go on to say that defeating a boss monster in a PvE game is all about how well equipped your party is? It's the SAME THING. Only I have given proof
Again you are making ignorant statements. Granted my play time in Shadowbane has been limited the last few months. Every battle I have been in has been one with multiple high level groups on each side (actually significantly more on the other side as the asian players all stick together). The last time I went out and killed a lowbie was before guild wars had come out
edit: oh yea, there was a server migration in shadowbane early this year. My guild had about 15 members (which slowly declined) and we were the 2nd to last guild to fall into one of the server alliances
However, Darkfall my change my mind, if the PvP is well done.
But then again: Darkfall Dev: "We don't think griefing will be a problem because there are penalties involved."
(Wait, oh god, can't type while I am laughing so hard).
~ Ancient Membership ~
On page 7 is a post I found very interesting, written by one Greyhammer.
This post outlines an idea and states an example of its actual successful implementation. But the immediate response, and I do not say this to offend, is the message: "Keep your hands and feet inside the box at all times".
The concept is permadeath.
The response was outright negative.
The post actually described a success.
Statements (I've avoided the use of quotes because it doesn't matter who said it):
"Here is the major flaw in your PvP (perma-death) world:"
"Organized guilds will have free reign on killing newbies."
Yes, they will. But organized guilds will want to grow stronger. How do they do that? Kill newbies? The gain will not be substantial. In fact, you gain more strength by offering them support and advantages, and having them fight for you. And maybe they'll be willing to risk their own lives for your guild so that you live to see another day.
"Newbies who havent found a guild to join in that server would be like sheep to be slaughtered."
Forcing some community, eh? It is a point. But then, you did just get yourself into a game where as good as nobody chose to stand alone, so you knew you had it coming. Unless you prove yourself unworthy (most likely by bringing harm to your own guild) you are likely to be welcomed into the guild of your own choice. Maybe not just any, but there will be enough who can't afford to say no.
"Newbies having a hard time, so they quit."
Newbies who seek to kill from minute one will have a hard time. Newbies who let that fellow talk (both/all sides will likely prefer to "outbid" the other rather than killing you) might be off to a good start right away.
"MMORPG developers not getting enough new player base to pay for development."
That's perhaps the greatest challenge when you try to make a game outside the box.
------------------
This is, of course, just my humble opinion. And if I understood Greyhammer right: A game that succeeded. Think of it. Consider the possibility.
Next. Consider the excitement. You will not be über, you cannot just go off and do anything. Even killing lowbies and outright newbies might get you into trouble. You will depend upon skill, or good decisions, and probably upon your friends. If you die, you lose it all (and must create a new character, I expect). However, if your enemy dies, he loses it all. And your enemy will have to risk his life to kill you. Therefore, your life won't be threatened that often, and might not at all, if you do not willingly expose yourself (make yourself an easy target, insult somebody, kill somebody, cause difficulties).
Also, permadeath allows for a coherent storyline to develop, if one wants that kind of thing. PVP as an action tool is one thing. I'm personally more interested in PVP as a natural part of roleplaying. I say roleplaying, and mean the projection of a character with depth and possibly purpose into the gaming world.
I am a "follower" of Adellion, a game in development which is reviewed on MMORPG.COM, where permadeath is a fact (although there will be some protection in case people went linkdead or were otherwise "inappropriately" killed). It will not be the perfect action game, it does not focus on action (note that it will have action), but it will be an excellent roleplaying game. When somebody dies, it might be a murder. And murder means actual death. The local community doesn't get that fellow back. The game is designed so that players will assume leadership roles and run the whole economy.
There have been other games trying to do what Adellion does, or similar things, but they have not succeeded. Most have either given up, or ended up somewhere in the box afterall. The Adellion developers (and fanbase) are very clear on what they want. They want the game they will love to play. And economy is a challenge. But the Adellion team is realistic, and they know where they stand. They know what they can do and what they can't do, and therefore they are likely to make it.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I consider myself a very open person and I'll entertain the most ridiculous concepts. That said I find Permadeath on a PvP server to be completely impossible.
The very best PvP contest is a max level fully developed and skilled person versus another max level fully developed and equally skilled person.
That's where you see the best attacks and defenses, the most creative and strategic use of skills. I think even the most gank-ready PvP player would agree that winning a fight like that is what it's all about. In this kind of match the win-loss percentage is 50/50.
Permadeath would create the exact world that nobody would want to play it. Ganking would be the only type of PvP for anyone of any skill. Whole guilds would fall and never rise again if they lost a real battle. I can't imagine any form of Permadeath FFA-PvP.
Asdar
I was quite suddenly and unexpectedly struck by an urge to do something constructive. Something very specific. Draw an outline of the PvP (action focused) game I'd like to play. The Revival of FFA PvP!
Features (or lack thereof)
Additional (not as important, more specific)
Permadeath
While you can do well without it, you cannot get it right without it. The ultimate loss isn't your gear, it isn't your XP, it is you.
Experience from PvP
One kill is as good as another. I can see troubles with this one, but I think the clever and inventive can make it work. I don't even think it would take all that much. The more people who aim to play the game rather than beat the game, the better this will work.
Low power in items
You shouldn't have to acquire a specific weapon to be a challenge. Acquiring a weapon should do. And it is more realistic too... You'll be good to go for a fight earlier, and even a big guy should think twice.
Moderate level difference
The challenge remains for the experienced players, and the opportunity is still there for the weaker ones. This also allows weaker players to be a valuable resource. While they are behind, they aren't far behind, and the one most daring, or cunning, might be the one most valuable.
Also, this serves to ameliorate the agony of death. You're not "worthless" until you've gone back up the grind.
Realistic encumbrance
It should be a tactical decision. That heavy armour makes you slower. It is easier to hit you, but harder to cause any damage. If you're likely to get hit much anyhow, then you will need its protection. If you trust your lightning reflexes, you might want something light. Also, running with much gear / loot should decrease stamina faster, forcing you to slow down sooner.
Law enforcement in populated areas
This should require some manner of monetary contribution, and be directed by the leaders of that area. Law enforcers should possess no advantage over players. They might be allowed, by the leader, to function as bandits. But if the leader doesn't protect the local community, the local community will disappear. The local community should be what feeds the leader cash to pay his goons. And so they will abandon him. A leader must be dependent on his followers.
Don't scream carebear. Guards are there not only to protect, but also to challenge. If you kill somebody who chooses to remain within safety of the city, and if your are spotted, then they could be upon you. And maybe there would be a bounty upon your head too. Players would have a strong incentive to gang up and kill you - legally, without guards coming to get them. That's a tougher game.
Few or no NPCs solely to be killed
Because PvP is, ultimately more entertaining - and yes: Challenging. An AI is no match for that brain of yours.
No unique NPCs may respawn
I like my games immersive. "Did you kill Thorax the Great Wyrm?" "Yes." "So did I, it nearly got me, though." (I know most don't talk like this).
Tactical weapons and skills
The rules are: Whenever you advance, you can choose in what areas, to customize yourself. This should have a significant effect.
I'll line up some weapons and relate some skills you could advance in, and you'll see what I mean.
Some general skills / stats:
Dagger: Small, easily concealed, doesn't require a strong arm. (Maybe also: Leaves you somewhat exposed to longer weapons in melee, or lower on defense that with other weapons)
Related skills would be: Melee (light) and "conceal item".
Crossbow: Obviously a ranged weapon. Maybe there exist a small version that can be concealed. A very simple weapon to use. Can be fired from horseback (if horses exist). All crossbows are slow to reload compared to bows, but bows require more training.
Skill: Ranged weapons
Longbow: That's a specialist's weapon. It won't do you much good unless you are well trained to it, and it is at best tricky to fire from horseback.
Skill: Ranged weapons, penalties at low skill levels
Why conceal a weapon? Betrayal. You agree to meet someone unarmed, and you catch him by surprise. Or the guards of a town are instructed to permit no weapons, and you need to sneak it past them. They might demand your backpack for inspection (you should have the ability to "permit view"), but that sneaky dagger-in-boot tricked them.
You get the choices of flexibility and power. You can be the tower of power with your greatsword and field plate, but if the others flee, you will be sagging behind, all by your lonesome.
You can devote your life to mastering the longbow, but if the enemy ever closes up, you need to run.
You can be a decent melee and ranged fighter, and perhaps use a lighter armour, but then you will excel in nothing. Versatility and adaptability is your tool, and if anybody is ever in need of a single man to solve a problem... Make a move.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
You're entitled to your opinion. However, there are many people who are disillusioned with current concepts. Has a permadeath game to this point been so successful that you have actually tried it? Most never come into existence.
But the loss of a character isn't the end of a game. It is the end of a chapter, and the beginning of a new one. Sounds silly and clich
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
chs5138 wrote:
So what you're saying is that a woman who wears a mini skirt and a tank top out in public is accepting the risk? Forgive me for saying this, but that is retarded.
I followed that starment up with a sentence that started with the words "but seriously". Aparently you can't understand SIMPLE concepts like sarcasm.
All games are about level and loot whether they are PvE or PvP.
Uh.... Quake 4 and Age of Mythology are about level and loot? I think you want to change that to "all RPGs are about level and loot." It's exactly this reason that I don't take PvP in MMORPGs seriously. If it were truely a contest of skill, I would be much more accepting. It's not, so I'm not. To be honest, Roma Victor and Auto Assault appear to be the only PvP MMOs that I would even consider playing mainly due to the twitch nature of their combat systems.
Let me use Shadowbane as an example...The level cap is 75 so no you are not going to compete at level 1, the use of that in an arguement is moronic at best.
If it were truely a game of skill between two players, a level 1 player could take on a level 75 player and win. It would be rough, but possible. This isn't a game of skill, so it isn't even remotely possible.
However, once you get to lvl 50 (R5) you can compete in high level PvP.
And on your journey to level 50 you'll be zerged, ganked, and insulted by wandering groups of level 50+ players that just want to greif you because they can. Honor? Nigga PUH-LEEZ!!!
High end equipment will give you an advantage but it doesn't mean you are going to win...and once you hit lvl 60 you can really compete with anyone.
Quick thing about good PvP: equipment should simply support a particular playstyle, not give unfair numeric advantages to one player or another. The fact that you have to level to 60 before you can compete defeats your arguement about compitition. If you can't compete until level 60, then you should make it impossible to attack anyone under level 60 and prevent anyone under level 60 from attacking you. If you were really looking for compitition, this idea wouldn't bother you in the slightest. You're not, so I'm assuming that you'll cry like I just shot off your big toe.
Not to mention it is possible (with some hardcore PLing) to go from 1-75 inside of 2 days, plus it's not hard to get high end gear in the game. Obviously
By "hardcore" playing I assume that you mean staying planted at your computer for a full 48 hours. If the PvP was worth it's salt you could be competitive right out of the gate. This isn't about skill or intelligence, it's about grinding up to a point where you can kill lowbies to make up for your obvious RL shortcommings.
Obviously you have never played shadowbane so your statement was one of ignorance.
No, I never played Shadowbane. I took it off the shelf, looked at the back of it, said to myself "oh, an EQ clone", and promptly put it back on the shelf. I then went on to by Tribes: Vengence. Damn glad I made the right choice
I have played AC and Lineage 2. They both repeat the same lack of depth in combat and hence make it impossible for a well outfitted group with exceptional teamwork to take down three times their number of opponents that are 20+ levels above them. From what I've seen in Shadowbane guild vids and heard on the forums, as well as mined from Stratics, Shadowbane is no different. Then again, I never played it.
Essentials
I wrote a lot earlier, so I thought I'd put it in short.
And I believe Jimmy has a few very good points.
Only thing is I'm a bit sad to see this argument about who said what and who's being unfair and psychopathic to whom.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Next person that compares real life illegal, violent, and immoral acts, to a game, trying to pretend that they can be even REMOTELY similar, will find torture and death at the means and ways of a soldering iron, and acid.
It's no wonder people bitch so much when they die at the hands of a mob, or a PK'er: They can't disassimilate their connection, and ultimate blurring of fiction, and reality.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."