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Thou cannot survive without PVP (Game Developers)
Tinybina
Member Posts: 2,130
Lets be real here.. With the exception of EQ and FFXI (which had a built in Player base) what PVE only MMORPG has really had any success....But lets flip that on the other side look at how many MMORPG's that have done well and the ones that do well today have alot of PVP elements to there game.
I think this just speaks volumes about the direction that Devs need to take in there games. Just like PVE, PVP needs to be included in your games. Its a must.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Comments
I disagree. PvP empowers bullies and @$$hats to domineer games and make them inhospitable, PvP isn't really a part of the roleplaying tradition and it only breaks up game communities and turns them in on themselves in recrimination.
There are better ways to approach the 'problem' of providing challenges and 'content'.
Ultimately the best anti-PvP argument is usually the comments of the pro PvP camp. *waits patiently*
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
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For most PvP mmorpg, it is a extremely hard game for a late subscriber.
A newbie is like a sheep to be slaughtered by the high level old timers.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
I still like how SWG handled PvP. PvP was open everywhere but you could chose when you wanted to PvP and when not too. I am still waiting for a game to impliment PvP so it actually has an effect other than just killing each other for fun.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
PvP is the way of the future, there is a limit to how intelligent PvE Mobs can be, they will never provide the challenge that other players do; with their constantly altering tactics. This is why single player games are going by the wayside and multiplayer games are becoming the wave of the future. Of course, the RPG tradition is steeped in Party Play, and this should always be encouraged, but there comes a point when the computer is no longer a challenge despite how many billions of HP a mob has or how much damage it does. Be assured, it is the challenge that keeps players coming back for more, and without PvP any game will eventually become stale.
Yes, in a PvP system you will die to other characters. You must learn to view them as just another enemy, just another mob... a mob that's smarter, and faster, and stronger, one that is truly worthy of fighting, not some useless pile of HP, spells and damage.
What is important is to find a PvP system that allows open PvP but dissuades players from killing "helpless" lowbies. In short, it is the Ruleset of PvP you find lacking, an environment where self-proclaimed uber characters, can and constantly do, kill others for no other reason than they can. Give PvP a purpose, be it RP, Item, Faction, or something else, and you'll find PvP as a gateway to Role-play, challenge, and competition instead of pointless ganking.
Tinybina wrote:
Lets be real here.. With the exception of EQ and FFXI (which had a built in Player base) what PVE only MMORPG has really had any success....
Name one pure PvP game with more than 50K subscribers. Shadowbane? Eve Online? AC Darktide maybe? Yeah, thanks for playing.
as a MMORPG game developer i find that there is a larger amount of players that do not like PvP or Players that would rather PvP be limited to certain zones then there are players that want all out PvP.
A huge amount of players use PvP as a socail outlet and a place to relax, this can not be done in an open PvP world.... the place for PvE only games will always be there.
As a MMORPG Developer of a game with mostly Open PvP, I can honestly say I've heard more from the people desiring a PvE experience with PvP as an option.
This might be the minority, but to date it's the Vocal Majority. With that as a base in the MMORPG Industry, there will always be PvE based games.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
This is because consumers as a whole A) Want an easy game, with little to no competition,
Haven't been shown a good PvP system wrapped in a pretty package with decent PvE play. Secondly, I don't doubt that there will be players who don't enjoy PvP, I simply think that if a proper system was introduced, players would flock to a game that rewarded ability instead time spent, that is, unless they have endless hours to spend and want this to give them a supreme edge over all other players.
For PvP to be successful it would need to always be risky for those doing it. There would need to be a threat of a real loss, there would need to be social and 'physical' consequences to their actions - such as attractign the attention of an in game police force.
Levels would need to be done away with - they're very old thinking anyway - and characters would need to start competent enough to defend themselves and to - if lucky - be able to take out a much more experienced attacker.
Fundamentally though, an RPG isn't an FPS. Characters have more meaning and more investment in them. When you fight a whole persona is on the line - at least for roleplayers - and its not just an FPS cipher that doesn't mean anything to the person.
Non consensual PvP is always fun at the expense of someone else. Make it properly consensual (only) and its a lot better.
I'd incorporate the challenge angle by taking a leaf from LARP. When you log in you'd be able to play, or to 'monster'. Posessing a random creature from the world and playing that, while earning money/xp/whatever for your main character.
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
Shop here
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
I do believe now that PvP is essential for a game to really be popular.
However, in saying that, I don't mean one-hit-dead-ganking-griefing-and-looting-PK'ing.
I mean a form of consensual PvP-combat usually tied to territorial acquisition or defense -- and I think every shard/server should offer vigorous, meaningful PvP'ing.
PvE'ers (nice word for Carebear) and Crafters should be able to choose "neutral" so that PvP'ers can have the title and honor of being Defenders or Soldiers, or something like that.
(DAoC solved that problem nicely by including PvP/RvR in the Frontiers. You did not have to enter, but, if you did, you were fair game. Made the Frontiers scary, risky and FUN -- although it's probably long past time for another DAoC-clone to be released.)
~ Ancient Membership ~
I agree to an extent - to the extent that the game developers want to attract all audiences. I've played both types of games and each has its merits. But PVP has also been the reason I left many MMORPGS (for the reasons previously stated). I feel more like it's a personal preference than a must in the game design. If the game is fun (whether there's PVP or not), that's what keeps the players playing IMO.
Any MMORPG that you will create that has a total lack of PVP in it.. WILL FAIL.. You might be able to pull some people at first, hell what MMORPG that is made decently cannot. But ultimately your game is doomed. Same can be said for MMORPG's that have Pure PVP elements but no PVE *cough* Planetside....
They go hand and hand they have from teh begining (UO maybe not the first but it was the begging)and thats the way it is now. You can easily see everything a game has to offer PVE wise, but with PVP there is always going to be something different, since that is a real live person on the other end and not a computer script.
If a person truely wants to break this genre open they will recoginze this fact and make a game that not only brings some Epic PVE concepts to there game from solo content starting at the lowest lvl to huge end game raiding but they will also have Epic PVP aspects in the form of RvR and land/base/castle/whatever clashes. Where the gamers will decide the outcome of there own world.
Im not asking that your game be a PVP only game, for that is boring in itself, what I am saying is that PVP has been here from the begginng (unlike what alot of you think) and it must continue to stay here if you wish to truely have staying power in this market. If you try to make a PVE or PVP only game, YOU WILL FAIL.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Exactly this is my feeling also.. I have Totally open PVP were ganking infest the game.. I hate it and this is from a person that loves to PVP. However I know there are people out there that like this so they should be able to enjoy this as well. Thats why I feel like different server types are the way to go. Pure PVE's can have there own server. People that like RVR and PVP ala DAOC can have there own server. People that want open gank fest were anyone and any level is game will have there own server...
But I can almost promise that the most populated server of those two will be door number freaking TWO. The PVP and PVE server that has areas where you can and cannot engage in PVP. Hence the topic of my thread.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I have to say BS to the person saying that players are much smarter and harder then npcs. That is SO untrue. No matter the game, no matter the class. There are only so many ways to play. So many ways to react to different situations. Even in games like magic the gathering you can not know ALOT of the cards, but play enough to know how to handle different decks after the first few rounds, say a black deck, you could expect fear, life drains, penalties, the like, there really aren't any cards that stray too far from the norm, there are overly exceptional ones sure, but they still follow the same rules.
Same with players, a game will always have a limited amount of choices, as in real life, you cant do everything. Some try, but most suck at what they didnt start at(arnold at politics.) Someone runs at you in melee, they are obviously a melee centered player. Lock them down or outmelee them, now they will throw at you a instant spell or a debuff, since being focused in melee would be a penalty to full on casting, you can't do both at once. So you won't expect to see that, unless a heal is thrown on themselves. you try to run, what is his first thought? Snares. He either does a melee move to slow you or tries to to cast a spell to slow you. Now your slowed and you die. Simple. What does a npc do? The exact same thing. The only difference is that pvp encounters are scaled to be harder, not because they are smarter or anything, just that npcs are toned to be killable, if a tough challenge, in pvp there is no toning to make someone easier to die.
And have you played with the CS bots on the hardest difficulties, those things really can do some serious damage, and ARE harder then most players.
i think if you want to compete with a game like wow, certainly having the option for pvp is needed. that being said, pvp isn't for everyone and there should always be a game or server for people that don't want to pvp.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
How did the original EQ survive for so long, even though UO (acclaimed to be one of the best PVP games ever) was released earlier?
Actually, you could say it's the other way around... EQ, EQ2, FFXI, CoH, etc. survived, and games like WoW only survive because of the Blizzard built-in playerbase, and full PVP games like UO and Shadowbane die out.
I actually am pro-PVP, but to say that games can't survive without PVP is udderly ignorant...
A game needs to have a fun and continuous player interaction... this can be PVP, or roleplaying, or an innovative PVE system, or crafting, or resources/politics/guilds. To limit an MMO's longevity to only one medium of player interaction is foolish.
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
I like to correct acouple people about Planetside. It a FPS game not RPG. I don't think this was successful becuase of other great FPS games without a monthy fee.
EDIT: About EQ survival for so long becuase it the first 3d mmorpg they played and It hard for people to leave a mmorpg to goto another mmorpg. Final Fantasy majority subscribers are from Asian countries and CoH promise PvP in the game.
Anyway, I think PvP in MMORPG gives another reason to go after the great loot or finish that quest. If it just PvE all you have is bragging rights untill someone else gets it.
I also agree you need some sort of PVP / Competion between players to be successful MMORPG.
I'm not saying as in depth PvP as Shadowbane / DAoC / WoW but arenas with some sort of reasons to go there.
Anyway I always stated it in my sig and this only apply to the American market.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Well let's be real here.
Just between you and me, MMORPG players aren't exactly the most competative in the world, they want pretty screens with alot of action that is very easy, they don't want challenge.
Lets look at WoW for example. It is popular because it is so easy. Even on pvp servers, there is no death penalty, you lose nothing, you can only GAIN honor. You cannot FAIL at wow, if you just sit there long enough, you WILL make 60, you WILL make warlord, you WILL have all purple items, there is simply NO WAY TO LOSE.
On the other hand you have games with low population like Eve Online, that can support 20k users without sharding, that have so much richness and depth, nice graphics, awesome pvp action, but few people can handle playing it, BECAUSE OF THE ABILITY TO LOSE. If you screw up badly enough, you can lose skills, you can lose tons of money, you can be driven bankrupt, others can AFFECT YOU WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT.
So no, I don't think MMORPG players want challenge. They dont want pvp. They don't want to compte. They don't want to have to play hard. THey don't want a world where there are winners and losers, they want a carebear candyland where everyone is a winner.
I started Eve late and love the game to death. If you do not pvp in Eve in your first month, chances are you will never pvp. Lots of people make excuses, like "I will pvp when I can drive xxx ship." Who are they kidding? When they are able to drive a battleship, they will be scared to lose it. They are scared to lose their rookieship. They are scared of conflict and failure. They are just plain carebears, and don't belong in Eve, but try to drive CCP to water the game down so that they don't feel like they "lost" so they make these 13 page whine posts about "WAAAH THIS PIRATE GANKED ME AND ITS NOT FAIR WAAAH WAAAH"
Meanwhile, new players are still coming in, starting to pvp before their trial subscription is even over, with no money and 200 k SP, they are going into low security space and ransoming miners, demanding money and surviving in lawless space.
I did it, lots of people did it, but you get these 10 million SP cowards who drive the toughest ship in the game, but scared to fly out of the newbie area (High security) because they might lose their pretty ship.
This aint everquest, the ship is actually meant to be used, lost, and replaced, you're supposed to actually USE the equipment and get it destroyed not just stand around Auction House showing off your +5 firesword.
But whatever. I have little respect for carebears.
How did the original EQ survive for so long, even though UO (acclaimed to be one of the best PVP games ever) was released earlier?
Actually, you could say it's the other way around... EQ, EQ2, FFXI, CoH, etc. survived, and games like WoW only survive because of the Blizzard built-in playerbase, and full PVP games like UO and Shadowbane die out.
Did EQ have any form of PVP yes or no? Thank you... Does COH have pvp yes or no? Thank you. EQ2 is even talking about having it.. Screw FFXI it is/was a joke that is dying.. WOW can be said is the most successfull MMORPG of all time numbers wise.. Buit in Player base or not, and does it have PVP? Thank you.
UO ruled for a few years without any Competition and it had PVP. Name one MMORPG that had NO PVP AT ALL IN ANY FORM that has truly dominated... THERE IS NONE..
And to the other poster if Planetside is on this site, chances are that makes it a MMORPG. After all you dont see Half Life or Doom 4 on here do ya.
Future developers you can choose to listen to the others if you want, but like I said "Thou cannot survive (in the MMORPG Market) without PVP. You can create teh perfect all PVE environment in the world and once people see it enough, its over for you.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Everyone IS running around with high end gear in WoW.
There is almost nobody in AH without glowy weapons and purple stuff.
How long does it take most people to get to 60, a month on pve servers, maybe 2 on pvp servers if you get ganked alot. Or you can do what most people do, and just hide in instances all the time, and never have to worry about the ganking rogue.
WoW is fun sure, but its not a virtual world, it's 3d diablo, and the battlegrounds are medieval counterstrike.
They should put sound effects in battle grounds, every time you get raped by a warrior the game should go "MOOOONSTER KILL...kill...kill..kill..." and when you get shanked by a Rogue, you should hear "HUMILIATION." Its basically counterstrike except you have to pay 15 bucks a month, and it can take for-freaking-ever for a game to start.
If you like battlegrounds, you should just go play BF2, its better.
World PVP is dead. Nobody does world PVP anymore. There are no battles in TM and XR like before.
The PVE game is childish to the point of silly. You skip around picking daisies while 3 shotting everything.
Oh wow, 40 people to kill instance boss. SNOOOOOZEEEER.
Did I mention the wonderful crafting system they have? It consists of opening the crafting window and hitting combine. You never fail a combine, and they have a handy auto-combine to help you combine hundreds of items with one click.
The "hardcore" tradeskill is Enchanting, which I powerleveled to 290 in about 90 minutes, including finding a group to Uldaman.
It was alot of fun for about 2 months, after which the game comes to a screeching halt. As far as things to do and places to see, you run out of them in about 60 hours of gameplay.
Oooh ahhh, Stromgarde. Oooh ahhh Scholomance. Ooooh ahhh Onyxia. After that it becomes a 5 minute griffon ride, 2 minute horse ride, and a 45 minute run to kill the baron for the 30th time this week.
Eve? There is no level cap and no skill cap, the highest player in the game is still training new skills, and it would take approximately 15 years to train everything. The content is the politics and alliances. You don't see your avatar because, well...most of us are past 12 years old and don't want to play with dolls anymore, we've moved up to toy spaceships.
On the other hand, it caters to non-violent gamers, you can be a builder and just open a shop and sell stuff, hire mercenaries to fight for you, hire miners to mine for you, you never even have to get out of the space station, just sit there and manipulate the market, in fact economists use the Eve market to study real economy.
Its a deeper richer game and owns WoW from Monday to Sunday in 33 flavors.
Yes, WoW is a fun game, but its simply not a persistant world, and hence, there is no point in playing it. When I am stressed out, I play counterstrike, BF2, Doom3, Splinter Cell etc, why would I spent 15 bucks to play wow when I can play these other games for free?