(1) Ingame Economy Shattered (If crafting systems are even in place, I'm seeing less and less crafting implemented into these MMORPGS anyway)
(2) They will abuse the system, making the premium services almost a must to purchase. 100X worse than having to buy an expansion. I'm sure they make the premium services too fantastic not to purchase.
(3) The game becomes less of a game
(4) Those with more RL $$ will have an advantage. Sure there was EBAY but its gonna be much easier now.
Being a history buff I was pretty interested in the potential of Roma Victor until I started thinking about the consequences of their business model on the players. They're not even bothering with game items, they're selling straight game cash and everyone starts with nothing, there will be some game economy opportunities to earn cash and they expect a signifcant minority to never buy game $ and on average players to spend about the same as a typical subscription, give or take.
So far it sounds like it has potential. I like to earn my way but I understand the frustration of more casual gamers trying to keep up with the really hard-core people and why a game company would want to try to bridge that. A balance between them is a noble goal. The power gamer should get a return on their time investment while the person that can only play 2 hours every other weekend shouldn't have to be shut out.
There's a catch though in trying to balance the 2 (and the even larger group like myself in between the 2 extremes.) They've stated they'll make in-game earnings harder/easier to get to maintain balance on that side to keep revenues adequate. That's fine, although disappointing in that it implies all transactions will be with NPCs not other players (how else to control the real world value of the in-game currency). However on the other side they talk about people being able to have vast estates so it doesn't sound like there's a limit on how much game $ you can buy. So theoretically a player can buy their way to end-game on day 1 of release Granted that extreme is only game-breaking for the person that tries it because they'll have no in-game motivation other than to visit places and chat to other players. Neither of which is a bad thing but they don't by themselves make for much of a game.
The big problem comes before that extreme due to other aspects of the game. Roman towns are 'safe'. MOST of the game is not in Roman towns, NPC MOB dangers like most games AND mandatory PvP. Then they combine that with lootable player bodies and perma-death. Can you say Gank-fest? All those things have been tried with varying success/failure in other games but now suddenly the ganking can happen on day 1 and the only counter is to spend more RL $ than the other guy. Even a powergamer, on getting ganked on day 1 can make a new character, build it up and then go after the casual ganker. Only by then he's written another check (plus all the players' $ he's ganked and looted) and is even stronger. I see great potential for a protection racket too, buy a powerful character and camp the only route between 2 major towns perhaps, everyone that wants to go by has to pay the toll that you use to buy even more uber stuff.
This is the path some game companies want to go down, doesn't sound too appealing to me. I see the potential to help the casual players particpate more fully but I also see the imbalance that will result as it's being implemented as described by ALL companies I've heard talking about it. The inevitable results are just more transparent in the Roma Victor example because they're selling cash rather than items which might have a more subjective value.
Originally posted by SonOfAGhost Being a history buff I was pretty interested in the potential of Roma Victor until I started thinking about the consequences of their business model on the players. They're not even bothering with game items, they're selling straight game cash and everyone starts with nothing, there will be some game economy opportunities to earn cash and they expect a signifcant minority to never buy game $ and on average players to spend about the same as a typical subscription, give or take. So far it sounds like it has potential. I like to earn my way but I understand the frustration of more casual gamers trying to keep up with the really hard-core people and why a game company would want to try to bridge that. A balance between them is a noble goal. The power gamer should get a return on their time investment while the person that can only play 2 hours every other weekend shouldn't have to be shut out. There's a catch though in trying to balance the 2 (and the even larger group like myself in between the 2 extremes.) They've stated they'll make in-game earnings harder/easier to get to maintain balance on that side to keep revenues adequate. That's fine, although disappointing in that it implies all transactions will be with NPCs not other players (how else to control the real world value of the in-game currency). However on the other side they talk about people being able to have vast estates so it doesn't sound like there's a limit on how much game $ you can buy. So theoretically a player can buy their way to end-game on day 1 of release Granted that extreme is only game-breaking for the person that tries it because they'll have no in-game motivation other than to visit places and chat to other players. Neither of which is a bad thing but they don't by themselves make for much of a game. The big problem comes before that extreme due to other aspects of the game. Roman towns are 'safe'. MOST of the game is not in Roman towns, NPC MOB dangers like most games AND mandatory PvP. Then they combine that with lootable player bodies and perma-death. Can you say Gank-fest? All those things have been tried with varying success/failure in other games but now suddenly the ganking can happen on day 1 and the only counter is to spend more RL $ than the other guy. Even a powergamer, on getting ganked on day 1 can make a new character, build it up and then go after the casual ganker. Only by then he's written another check (plus all the players' $ he's ganked and looted) and is even stronger. I see great potential for a protection racket too, buy a powerful character and camp the only route between 2 major towns perhaps, everyone that wants to go by has to pay the toll that you use to buy even more uber stuff. This is the path some game companies want to go down, doesn't sound too appealing to me. I see the potential to help the casual players particpate more fully but I also see the imbalance that will result as it's being implemented as described by ALL companies I've heard talking about it. The inevitable results are just more transparent in the Roma Victor example because they're selling cash rather than items which might have a more subjective value.
There is the blanket assumption that the powergamer wouldn't take advantage of the system. The powergamer now will end up with double that of the regular average 2 hour gamer. Or cause rampent inflation of tradeable commodities.
Any attempt to control prices requires crafters to be no more then human vendors as opposed to npc vendors.
They proper way to control and balance a video game economy is free open player driven crafting and economics. The swg pre-cu models only issue was "legendary" loot that no crafter could ever attain in his own crafted items. In that model players looted parts/schematics and needed an expert in crafting to manufacture the highest quality item.
Anytime you allow real money to flow ingame as a counterbalance to uber players all you do is provide another avenue for that hardcore player to gain easy advantages.
SOE sees the writing on the walls with guild wars success. It is a fundamental shift in how MMO's are going to be developed. NC Soft made a free to play online game. This threatens the very cash flow soe depends on. Tell me what is so superior that I would pay 14.99 per months to play WoW vs. EQI&II vs. Guild Wars?
The problem companies like SOE have is they specialize in the monthly fee/expansion rape kits. I have a MAJOR problem paying a monthly fee for a mmo that is suppose to be going towards fixing the game and adding content, and having the company turn right around and use part of that fee I pay to feed the development of an expansion for that game then charging me for that developed content I just paid for.
It is always the problem I had with SOE as a company pre-swg and why I as an avid UO player never tried EQ. I also hated the burdensome cost of ever buying a new expansion pack ontop of the fee.
For monthly fee games to be successful in the future content must be free. Meaning you cannot charge existing subscribers for the add-on. Its the only reason I would now pay a fee to play online games. I want added content. I am willing to pay a monthly fee to get the content. Start charging me for content on top of the fee and I am gone. I will not do that and I NEVER bought 1 SWG expansion.
For me as a swg former paying customer I will say my 14.99 a month fee got me no content added in game after player vehicles. That is a LONG LONG TIME AGO. I paid for the development of the CU which added no content. JTL which would have cost me to buy, RoOTW, ToOW and the NGE. This royally pissed me off as I am sure it does most casual outside observers to MMO games.
It prohibits there growth among casual/hardcore console gamers. SOE has to adopt a new model for its games if it hopes to attain 1 million subscribers. It has to start by building game engines with solid lasting foundations. You have to have solid relatively bug free games to attract that crowd. The console gamers do not tolerate underdeveloped, bugged games.
How SOE ever thought the NGE with all its bugs would be a hit is serious oversight by soe management. It is clear they are trying to head towards that demographic of gamer. I hope SOE changes for its employees sakes. How the NGE was tested 2 weeks and pushed out was the biggest mistake I have ever seen made. The NGE might have worked and been great. Not tested over 2 weeks. Only a sucker or avid star wars fan would tolerate a game that took 2 years to construct and beta being stripped, gutted, revamped and then tested in beta for 2 weeks. Which gets me to the whole test server issue I have with SOE. I will test your product. I will find bugs. When you push out code with known bugs it makes you look stupid. Please stop doing that. Don't push code out to meet deadlines if its broken. I know it may be painful to tell some asshat in a suit that it needs more time to be fixed but someone has to tell Julio Torres that playing a game with lag so horrid you cannot move isn't going to work. Since the 26 of dec. gamers on the east coast, report lag issues. Whole guilds. The response is abyssmal. Why do you pay for this people?
If I where SOE I would look at the guild wars model for success in the MMO arena and take from it what makes it successful. The reason so many people have it and play it and recommend it has to do with the free to play aspect. It is a "no commitment" game much like a console game. If you are bored you can play it again. You can always "return" to the game. SWG lacks that "return" feature as does eq. Once you are out of the games loop it becomes more difficult to desire to play again. You have to get out the credit card, gotta resubscribe, gotta make a "commitment" to play again. It has the whole you have to consider whether you are really going to play it again aspect.
Such as when a game like madden comes out. SWG has to take a hit and when it does its semi-permanent. I want to play the new madden all the time. Love it. Have fun with the updates, new players, new rosters. Well if I am not play swg I am not paying for it. As I am sure happens. Multiple this over the release yearly of at least 3-10 anticipated console games/pc games and you see how this commitment SOE has you undertake becomes the issue.
Once you require people make such a commitment to a game you have a greater responsibility to that community. SOE views this responsibility with such disdain and disrespect that it is hard to fathom why anyone plays there products. Just look as LA/SOE public comments on the community outrage over the CU and the NGE. To them we are all forum trolls.
To summarize, monthly fees still have a place it just requires a different perspective on expansions and game overhauls. If you want to do a no monthly fee model it already exists and works in guild wars. I don't see what is so ground breaking about it. Just use that model.
Originally posted by SonOfAGhost Being a history buff I was pretty interested in the potential of Roma Victor until I started thinking about the consequences of their business model on the players. They're not even bothering with game items, they're selling straight game cash and everyone starts with nothing, there will be some game economy opportunities to earn cash and they expect a signifcant minority to never buy game $ and on average players to spend about the same as a typical subscription, give or take. So far it sounds like it has potential. I like to earn my way but I understand the frustration of more casual gamers trying to keep up with the really hard-core people and why a game company would want to try to bridge that. A balance between them is a noble goal. The power gamer should get a return on their time investment while the person that can only play 2 hours every other weekend shouldn't have to be shut out. There's a catch though in trying to balance the 2 (and the even larger group like myself in between the 2 extremes.) They've stated they'll make in-game earnings harder/easier to get to maintain balance on that side to keep revenues adequate. That's fine, although disappointing in that it implies all transactions will be with NPCs not other players (how else to control the real world value of the in-game currency). However on the other side they talk about people being able to have vast estates so it doesn't sound like there's a limit on how much game $ you can buy. So theoretically a player can buy their way to end-game on day 1 of release Granted that extreme is only game-breaking for the person that tries it because they'll have no in-game motivation other than to visit places and chat to other players. Neither of which is a bad thing but they don't by themselves make for much of a game. The big problem comes before that extreme due to other aspects of the game. Roman towns are 'safe'. MOST of the game is not in Roman towns, NPC MOB dangers like most games AND mandatory PvP. Then they combine that with lootable player bodies and perma-death. Can you say Gank-fest? All those things have been tried with varying success/failure in other games but now suddenly the ganking can happen on day 1 and the only counter is to spend more RL $ than the other guy. Even a powergamer, on getting ganked on day 1 can make a new character, build it up and then go after the casual ganker. Only by then he's written another check (plus all the players' $ he's ganked and looted) and is even stronger. I see great potential for a protection racket too, buy a powerful character and camp the only route between 2 major towns perhaps, everyone that wants to go by has to pay the toll that you use to buy even more uber stuff. This is the path some game companies want to go down, doesn't sound too appealing to me. I see the potential to help the casual players particpate more fully but I also see the imbalance that will result as it's being implemented as described by ALL companies I've heard talking about it. The inevitable results are just more transparent in the Roma Victor example because they're selling cash rather than items which might have a more subjective value.
Damn dude..... that's a long ass post.... and I agree, but jeez... the only reason I read it all cause I was relaxing having a bloody mary waiting for my Sunday Paper.
But U do speak truth.
What I would like to see is a game made for adults. Complex crafting, Player based economy, Player based cities, Solo play, ya know, stuff like that....I would pay top $ for that.
Crap, I just described pre-CU SWG and I admited that I would pay big $ for it....
Im sure SOE spy's are around here sniffing around for my wallet....take it U bastards, just give us our game back...
Originally posted by strikeinThe problem I see with a "premium" service basis is that you'll find the developer restricting aspects of gameplay, like in game money to those services and then the amount of money you have in game directly pertains to how much money you have in real life. If you have no way to make in game money without spending real money on it then you're going to get an elitist economy like we already have in real life. This destroys the premise for mmos in general. Why play a game if it's exactly like life? There is no fun or adventure for those who have bills to pay.And yes, class rifts do already exist. To exploit those rifts, to me, is simply immoral, it taints the purpose of online gaming. When video games got started, they were for everybody, there were no class barriers. When you go to a system where you can't be as good as the guy with the extra dough, you are exploiting a class rift and causing further social dissent.
I can see it now, droves of ppl going to the mmorpg farmers for items and credits sold at a discount.
Originally posted by strikeinThe problem I see with a "premium" service basis is that you'll find the developer restricting aspects of gameplay, like in game money to those services and then the amount of money you have in game directly pertains to how much money you have in real life. If you have no way to make in game money without spending real money on it then you're going to get an elitist economy like we already have in real life. This destroys the premise for mmos in general. Why play a game if it's exactly like life? There is no fun or adventure for those who have bills to pay.And yes, class rifts do already exist. To exploit those rifts, to me, is simply immoral, it taints the purpose of online gaming. When video games got started, they were for everybody, there were no class barriers. When you go to a system where you can't be as good as the guy with the extra dough, you are exploiting a class rift and causing further social dissent.
I can see it now, droves of ppl going to the mmorpg farmers for items and credits sold at a discount.
That's a seperate issue in it's own right. That is an example of the cheaters/lazy people doing exactly what they would do with the "premium" services. If you want somthing in an mmo, then earn it like the real gamers do. I would call for harsher lawsuits in that matter......or public executions......yes, public executions...I can see it now.....fades into a scene of a courtyard and an executioner with a blunt axe.....for the offense of purchasing items in game with real money, we sentence you to 52 blows to the neck with a blunt axe or until you are dead......
They can release SWG 3000 and I still wont play it, free or even if they pay me. Well, if they pay me I may play it. However, I cannot ever envision another SOE game in my house. /shrug
I don't know about this one.... Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see SWG2. But to me, this article seems like just conjecture that's loosely based on Smedley's interview with Gamespot.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Originally posted by Diross I can see it now, droves of ppl going to the mmorpg farmers for items and credits sold at a discount.
Easily prevented by not allowing players to trade with each other, see my other post in this thread about RV planning to tightly control the value of their game currency.
No1 ever said so far, that SWG 2 will be operated by SoE - how come it is taken as a fact here ?
It was even not stated that there will be an SWG2, all we've heard so far was an statement from an LEC-lady, not thinking very well what she is saying there - and causing by this.
So far, it is only a vague idea for future billing models, where the possibillity of another SWG title was "accediently" implicated in her statement.
And tbh, if it is sposed to be beta in mid 2008, the developement has to start right now, 2 yrs. are not much for such a complex title.
Would you give SoE the SWG2 licence when you have to decide that these days-being in LEC's shoes ? I wouldnt !
So expect to see some more rumours floating on the net from now on, what companys will be in "negotiation with LEC for an unamed title"
One thing for sure: This John Smedley-plague is, unfortunatly and obv still in charge, he posted something on the forums yesterday.
He comes from the world of arcadegames, which is very exactly what the NGE looks like today, he cant deny his roots.
I doubt that a complex MMORPG can be operated by a company which CEO is a "2-button 25cnt. 3 minute gamer" - like the world can see and comfirm: NGE.
You really have to explain to me, how a brand (Star Wars®) keeping the generations excited since 30 yrs, with bazillion of fans around the globe through all generations, with a million kids within the fanbase owning computers, willing to pay and play - please explain how such "selfgoing brand" is not the worlds game No.1 with 5 millions active subscribers, but a "noname" fantasy game -no.654 of all fantasygames- holds the thrown, explain this to me please...
If i would be in charge at LEC for this title, SoE would be the first leaving the "potential candidates list" for SWG 2 - and for SWG 1 as well, btw.
Having the one and only Star Wars MMORPG under licence and dulling around with 80K (dont ask me..) subscribers these days - you must have put a mount of Bantha poo in the box making no1 buying it - or you are so very incompetent driving all potential customers away, that you need to be removed asap.
But sitting in the chair and infesting the intelligent world around you with crap like "Asian market visions", like this Smagma dude is doing all day while holding up the NGE code to develope on from there, while almost 200K subscribers are leaving your game DUE to these changes: This is really and seriously some very "weired" business tactic which (imho) needs some "rehearsal" of the responsibles.
Statements like "The NGE will be realized in 6 phases, adding/extending things over time - we are currently in phase 1", im sorry you human beings with a brain: Such nonsense is supposed to go into alpha status on closed testservers, but has no room on productionsservers charging you for that.
Mr. Smedley might want to consider, that there will be no1 left to "enjoy" the phase 6 of the SWG-Supernintendoversion.
Sony Online Entertainment has nothing on the market which is remarkable. All their titles are "somewhere" in the gamecharts, nothing is even top 20 (Battlefront and other titles are LA, not SoE).
There are many other companys who show off how to operate successive titles, like Blizzard, Arena etc. And these reigns will be extended by new companys soon, when title like Heros Journey, Star Trek Online and Pirates of the burning see hit the shelves. But SoE will still be not found on these charts then.
They really should start to see their horrid mistakes and expensive failures and start cleaning up the mess and reverse the damage they have done - before Mr. Smedley thinks he must "fertilize" the world with his unimportant marketing visions of far east.
I am sorry in advance if i do sound grouchy about SoE, this is most likeley because i am.
Originally posted by ClaudeFR Good day ! No1 ever said so far, that SWG 2 will be operated by SoE - how come it is taken as a fact here ? It was even not stated that there will be an SWG2, all we've heard so far was an statement from an LEC-lady, not thinking very well what she is saying there - and causing by this. ....
I guess it's assumed it's SOE because a) She mentions it would be based around the same subscription scheme that SOE wants to use for future games and b) It would most likely already be in development (the very early stages anyway), and since SOE still has the licence it's a good guess that it's being developed by them.
Nancy is the senior director of SWG at LA, I kinda doubt she would let something like this slip out along with a potential release date "without thinking".
Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by ClaudeFR Good day ! No1 ever said so far, that SWG 2 will be operated by SoE - how come it is taken as a fact here ? It was even not stated that there will be an SWG2, all we've heard so far was an statement froman LEC-lady, not thinking very well what she is saying there - and causing by this. .... I guess it's assumed it's SOE because a) She mentions it would be based around the same subscription scheme that SOE wants to use for future games and b) It would most likely already be in development (the very early stages anyway), and since SOE still has the licence it's a good guess that it's being developed by them. Nancy is the senior director of SWG at LA, I kinda doubt she would let something like this slip out along with a potential release date "without thinking".
She is employeed with "LucasArt Entertainment Company" (LEC) which isnt Lucas Art to be exactly She comes from Atari's Beverly Studio before, managing titles for Nintendo.
Nancy MacIntyre is reporting to Jim Ward, which is one of the...lets say "friends" of SoE at LEC.
Jim Ward was assigned as the president of developement at LEC in may 2004, when LEC was "restructured" to safe money...LEC fired more then 30 contracted devs these days !
Jim Ward came over from Lucasfilm ltd. - he was one of the SW-DVD repsonsibles.
This is the commandchain over there, just as an little insight to understand, why such statements make it to public...
The truth is that LEC is not holding the Star Wars® licence, George Lucas is holding the Star Wars licence, so finally Lucas Art.
And believe me when i tell you , that Lucas Art resp. George Lucas is not asking anyone, when it comes to the point of giving out the SWG-2 licence.
THIS is done by numbers that he will inspect before - which is the point of SoE losing the race, plain and simple.
Every single star wars fan out there should pray on his knees, that SoE is NOT getting the SWG2 licence. IF there is such licence anyway.
Originally posted by ClaudeFR Good day ! No1 ever said so far, that SWG 2 will be operated by SoE - how come it is taken as a fact here ? It was even not stated that there will be an SWG2, all we've heard so far was an statement froman LEC-lady, not thinking very well what she is saying there - and causing by this. ....
I guess it's assumed it's SOE because a) She mentions it would be based around the same subscription scheme that SOE wants to use for future games and b) It would most likely already be in development (the very early stages anyway), and since SOE still has the licence it's a good guess that it's being developed by them. Nancy is the senior director of SWG at LA, I kinda doubt she would let something like this slip out along with a potential release date "without thinking".
She is employeed with "LucasArt Entertainment Company" (LEC) which isnt Lucas Art to be exactly She comes from Atari's Beverly Studio before, managing titles for Nintendo.
Nancy MacIntyre is reporting to Jim Ward, which is one of the...lets say "friends" of SoE at LEC.
Jim Ward was assigned as the president of developement at LEC in may 2004, when LEC was "restructured" to safe money...LEC fired more then 30 contracted devs these days !
Jim Ward came over from Lucasfilm ltd. - he was one of the SW-DVD repsonsibles.
This is the commandchain over there, just as an little insight to understand, why such statements make it to public...
The truth is that LEC is not holding the Star Wars® licence, George Lucas is holding the Star Wars licence, so finally Lucas Art.
And believe me when i tell you , that Lucas Art resp. George Lucas is not asking anyone, when it comes to the point of giving out the SWG-2 licence.
THIS is done by numbers that he will inspect before - which is the point of SoE losing the race, plain and simple.
Every single star wars fan out there should pray on his knees, that SoE is NOT getting the SWG2 licence. IF there is such licence anyway.
I think you're a little confused. LucasArts Entertainment Company is the same thing as LucasArts, the latter is just the shortform of the former. If you don't believe me, do a Google search of LucasArts Entertainment Company and look at the results. I don't see why you keep bringing up she once worked for Nintendo, what does it matter?
LA/LEC or whatever you want to call them are in charge of giving out the SW license for computer/video games. This is what George Lucas created LucasArts for, so he doesn't have to deal with that sorta stuff.
Originally posted by Obraik I think you're a little confused. LucasArts Entertainment Company is the same thing as LucasArts, the latter is just the shortform of the former. If you don't believe me, do a Google search of LucasArts Entertainment Company and look at the results. I don't see why you keep bringing up she once worked for Nintendo, what does it matter? LA/LEC or whatever you want to call them are in charge of giving out the SW license for computer/video games. This is what George Lucas created LucasArts for, so he doesn't have to deal with that sorta stuff.
I am not confused, it was more of a sarcastic remark (LA/LEC) (thats why there was a smiley).
The reason why i mention Nintendo and John Smedleys past with arcade games - do i really need to explain this or will you spend some more thoughts on the deeper meaning on your own ?
You might want to take a look at the NGE, consider their careers and maybe then you will also understand what one has to do with the other - and most important: What to expect...
Originally posted by Kewbacca im not too sure if that article was serious.. but omfg, it would be my dream if they made a swg2 that was exactly like publish 10 only better graphics and more planets, races, doo dads, etc..
That article is as serious as Sam... Wow, My prognostication of SWG's death is even more imminent!!!!
/cackles
*runs off to underground base to post maniacal thoughts regarding SWG's demise*
What he MEANS. Is that LucasArts is a division of LucasFilms LTD. just as there company website states.
1993 Company: Lucasfilm Games becomes LucasArts Entertainment Company. Industrial Light & Magic and Skywalker Sound operate within the newly formed Lucas Digital.
JIM WARD President LucasArts, A Lucasfilm Ltd. company
His only management experience has been running a marketing division. He has zero experience in any managerial role in the area of development of products prior to his taking over at Lucas Arts in May of 2004. Which is not ideal but ok if you have a well experienced and vetern of game product development like Peter Hirschmann's
Peter Hirschmann's first video game work that SPOnG is aware of is the title, "Medal of Honor" (Sony PlayStation) as Project Leader/Producer.
The person of interest in this piece is a man named Howard Hoffman. He is probably one of George Lucas's most trusted advisors and makes all Licensing decisions regarding Lucas Products. President of Lucas Licensing Howard Roffman was born and raised in Philadelphia, Penn. He attended the University of Pennsylvania and, after obtaining his law degree in 1977 from the University of Florida College of Law, he served for one year as a law clerk to the Honorable Bryan Simpson in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Thereafter, he worked for two years as an associate at the Washington D.C. law firm of Morgan, Lewis & Bockius. In 1980 he joined Lucasfilm as legal counsel and soon after was promoted to general counsel. In 1984, Roffman served as acting chief operating officer.
In these various positions, Roffman was able to combine business executive functions with creative marketing skills as he was involved in all facets of Lucasfilm's operations from general management to film production, special effects, post production and licensing, which led to his appointment in 1986 as the company's Vice President of Licensing. In 1999, Roffman was appointed President of Lucas Licensing.
Jim and Pete would have to ask Mr. Roffman to license out swg2. You think this happened? You think that something like this doesn't get the nod from senor Lucas himself?
Just asking cause all the flak I catch for my belief that Lucas (himself) was unhappy with SOE and had the game licensed to someone else for the second release of the MMO.
Originally posted by haxxjoo Just asking cause all the flak I catch for my belief that Lucas (himself) was unhappy with SOE and had the game licensed to someone else for the second release of the MMO.
And if Lucas himself was upset at SOE and was going to give the license to someone else, do you think you'd know about but his own people wouldn't?
Do you think if your boss came in one day and said he hated the company that was running a certin aspect of the company, then would you do a press release stating that the company your boss hated would be taking on another aspect?
Originally posted by haxxjoo Hasn't soe been deleting all references to this post on its forums?
I don't know I don't go there very often, but I'm not sure what your point is?
My point is this: Someone from LucasArts (yes LucasArts NOT SOE) stated that SOE will be doing SWG2. If George Lucas himself was upset with SOE, I think everyone in his company would know he was upset with SOE and wouldn't be having his people make these kinds of claims.
EDIT: It was pointed out in another thread that the LucasArts Rep didn't actually name SOE in her statements. So this does actually lend weight the the George Lucas is pissed theory.
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by haxxjoo Hasn't soe been deleting all references to this post on its forums? I don't know I don't go there very often, but I'm not sure what your point is? My point is this: Someone from LucasArts (yes LucasArts NOT SOE) stated that SOE will be doing SWG2. If George Lucas himself was upset with SOE, I think everyone in his company would know he was upset with SOE and wouldn't be having his people make these kinds of claims. EDIT: It was pointed out in another thread that the LucasArts Rep didn't actually name SOE in her statements. So this does actually lend weight the the George Lucas is pissed theory.
If you read it in context she's also speaking hypothetically so despite all the threads reading in what wasn't there SWG2 has not been confirmed at all much less from who or when. Then there's the, at best, tenous grip on reality she's displayed in the few previous comments. "too much reading" "kill, loot, repeat" etc.
Exactly... she never mentions $OE as the developer.
I'd believe at this point they will either beg Blizzard to develop it, or go it alone. There's two big reasons they'd do one of the two...
Bliz - Sucessful design and a large database.
Alone - Build an MMORPG and own it outright. Total control they crave.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Ok, so with this new info about the timeline being moved forward my guess is that SWG2 will be based after ROTJ (if they make it follow on from the current SWG). By the time SWG 2 is released, SWG will be in the ROTJ timeframe. Empire was based 3 years after ANH, ROTJ 1 year after that, so if this timeframe nudged is to Empire then it would seem a game year = a year in the Star Wars world
Originally posted by Obraik Ok, so with this new info about the timeline being moved forward my guess is that SWG2 will be based after ROTJ (if they make it follow on from the current SWG). By the time SWG 2 is released, SWG will be in the ROTJ timeframe. Empire was based 3 years after ANH, ROTJ 1 year after that, so if this timeframe nudged is to Empire then it would seem a game year = a year in the Star Wars world
if they make if follow the current timeline SWG is in, it could to to tesb, rotj, or anh. SWG currently has two different positions in storyline. Originally it was just past anh but before tesb and on those "wonderful" quest planets, it's all rots. The game never really progressed in time outiside of the cries of aldaraan thing.
Comments
Problems I forsee with this business model.
(1) Ingame Economy Shattered (If crafting systems are even in place, I'm seeing less and less crafting implemented into these MMORPGS anyway)
(2) They will abuse the system, making the premium services almost a must to purchase. 100X worse than having to buy an expansion. I'm sure they make the premium services too fantastic not to purchase.
(3) The game becomes less of a game
(4) Those with more RL $$ will have an advantage. Sure there was EBAY but its gonna be much easier now.
Being a history buff I was pretty interested in the potential of Roma Victor until I started thinking about the consequences of their business model on the players.
They're not even bothering with game items, they're selling straight game cash and everyone starts with nothing, there will be some game economy opportunities to earn cash and they expect a signifcant minority to never buy game $ and on average players to spend about the same as a typical subscription, give or take.
So far it sounds like it has potential. I like to earn my way but I understand the frustration of more casual gamers trying to keep up with the really hard-core people and why a game company would want to try to bridge that. A balance between them is a noble goal. The power gamer should get a return on their time investment while the person that can only play 2 hours every other weekend shouldn't have to be shut out.
There's a catch though in trying to balance the 2 (and the even larger group like myself in between the 2 extremes.) They've stated they'll make in-game earnings harder/easier to get to maintain balance on that side to keep revenues adequate. That's fine, although disappointing in that it implies all transactions will be with NPCs not other players (how else to control the real world value of the in-game currency). However on the other side they talk about people being able to have vast estates so it doesn't sound like there's a limit on how much game $ you can buy. So theoretically a player can buy their way to end-game on day 1 of release
Granted that extreme is only game-breaking for the person that tries it because they'll have no in-game motivation other than to visit places and chat to other players. Neither of which is a bad thing but they don't by themselves make for much of a game.
The big problem comes before that extreme due to other aspects of the game. Roman towns are 'safe'. MOST of the game is not in Roman towns, NPC MOB dangers like most games AND mandatory PvP. Then they combine that with lootable player bodies and perma-death. Can you say Gank-fest? All those things have been tried with varying success/failure in other games but now suddenly the ganking can happen on day 1 and the only counter is to spend more RL $ than the other guy. Even a powergamer, on getting ganked on day 1 can make a new character, build it up and then go after the casual ganker. Only by then he's written another check (plus all the players' $ he's ganked and looted) and is even stronger. I see great potential for a protection racket too, buy a powerful character and camp the only route between 2 major towns perhaps, everyone that wants to go by has to pay the toll that you use to buy even more uber stuff.
This is the path some game companies want to go down, doesn't sound too appealing to me. I see the potential to help the casual players particpate more fully but I also see the imbalance that will result as it's being implemented as described by ALL companies I've heard talking about it. The inevitable results are just more transparent in the Roma Victor example because they're selling cash rather than items which might have a more subjective value.
Why release SWG 2 when the original will kick the crap out of World of Warcraft?
There is the blanket assumption that the powergamer wouldn't take advantage of the system. The powergamer now will end up with double that of the regular average 2 hour gamer. Or cause rampent inflation of tradeable commodities.
Any attempt to control prices requires crafters to be no more then human vendors as opposed to npc vendors.
They proper way to control and balance a video game economy is free open player driven crafting and economics. The swg pre-cu models only issue was "legendary" loot that no crafter could ever attain in his own crafted items. In that model players looted parts/schematics and needed an expert in crafting to manufacture the highest quality item.
Anytime you allow real money to flow ingame as a counterbalance to uber players all you do is provide another avenue for that hardcore player to gain easy advantages.
SOE sees the writing on the walls with guild wars success. It is a fundamental shift in how MMO's are going to be developed. NC Soft made a free to play online game. This threatens the very cash flow soe depends on. Tell me what is so superior that I would pay 14.99 per months to play WoW vs. EQI&II vs. Guild Wars?
The problem companies like SOE have is they specialize in the monthly fee/expansion rape kits. I have a MAJOR problem paying a monthly fee for a mmo that is suppose to be going towards fixing the game and adding content, and having the company turn right around and use part of that fee I pay to feed the development of an expansion for that game then charging me for that developed content I just paid for.
It is always the problem I had with SOE as a company pre-swg and why I as an avid UO player never tried EQ. I also hated the burdensome cost of ever buying a new expansion pack ontop of the fee.
For monthly fee games to be successful in the future content must be free. Meaning you cannot charge existing subscribers for the add-on. Its the only reason I would now pay a fee to play online games. I want added content. I am willing to pay a monthly fee to get the content. Start charging me for content on top of the fee and I am gone. I will not do that and I NEVER bought 1 SWG expansion.
For me as a swg former paying customer I will say my 14.99 a month fee got me no content added in game after player vehicles. That is a LONG LONG TIME AGO. I paid for the development of the CU which added no content. JTL which would have cost me to buy, RoOTW, ToOW and the NGE. This royally pissed me off as I am sure it does most casual outside observers to MMO games.
It prohibits there growth among casual/hardcore console gamers. SOE has to adopt a new model for its games if it hopes to attain 1 million subscribers. It has to start by building game engines with solid lasting foundations. You have to have solid relatively bug free games to attract that crowd. The console gamers do not tolerate underdeveloped, bugged games.
How SOE ever thought the NGE with all its bugs would be a hit is serious oversight by soe management. It is clear they are trying to head towards that demographic of gamer. I hope SOE changes for its employees sakes. How the NGE was tested 2 weeks and pushed out was the biggest mistake I have ever seen made. The NGE might have worked and been great. Not tested over 2 weeks. Only a sucker or avid star wars fan would tolerate a game that took 2 years to construct and beta being stripped, gutted, revamped and then tested in beta for 2 weeks. Which gets me to the whole test server issue I have with SOE. I will test your product. I will find bugs. When you push out code with known bugs it makes you look stupid. Please stop doing that. Don't push code out to meet deadlines if its broken. I know it may be painful to tell some asshat in a suit that it needs more time to be fixed but someone has to tell Julio Torres that playing a game with lag so horrid you cannot move isn't going to work. Since the 26 of dec. gamers on the east coast, report lag issues. Whole guilds. The response is abyssmal. Why do you pay for this people?
If I where SOE I would look at the guild wars model for success in the MMO arena and take from it what makes it successful. The reason so many people have it and play it and recommend it has to do with the free to play aspect. It is a "no commitment" game much like a console game. If you are bored you can play it again. You can always "return" to the game. SWG lacks that "return" feature as does eq. Once you are out of the games loop it becomes more difficult to desire to play again. You have to get out the credit card, gotta resubscribe, gotta make a "commitment" to play again. It has the whole you have to consider whether you are really going to play it again aspect.
Such as when a game like madden comes out. SWG has to take a hit and when it does its semi-permanent. I want to play the new madden all the time. Love it. Have fun with the updates, new players, new rosters. Well if I am not play swg I am not paying for it. As I am sure happens. Multiple this over the release yearly of at least 3-10 anticipated console games/pc games and you see how this commitment SOE has you undertake becomes the issue.
Once you require people make such a commitment to a game you have a greater responsibility to that community. SOE views this responsibility with such disdain and disrespect that it is hard to fathom why anyone plays there products. Just look as LA/SOE public comments on the community outrage over the CU and the NGE. To them we are all forum trolls.
To summarize, monthly fees still have a place it just requires a different perspective on expansions and game overhauls. If you want to do a no monthly fee model it already exists and works in guild wars. I don't see what is so ground breaking about it. Just use that model.
Eve-Online, EQ2, DnL, SWG (Dead), Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, EQ, DAoC, Planet Side, WoW, LOTR, Tabula Rasa.
That's a seperate issue in it's own right. That is an example of the cheaters/lazy people doing exactly what they would do with the "premium" services. If you want somthing in an mmo, then earn it like the real gamers do. I would call for harsher lawsuits in that matter......or public executions......yes, public executions...I can see it now.....fades into a scene of a courtyard and an executioner with a blunt axe.....for the offense of purchasing items in game with real money, we sentence you to 52 blows to the neck with a blunt axe or until you are dead......
I don't know about this one.... Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see SWG2. But to me, this article seems like just conjecture that's loosely based on Smedley's interview with Gamespot.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Easily prevented by not allowing players to trade with each other, see my other post in this thread about RV planning to tightly control the value of their game currency.
Good day !
No1 ever said so far, that SWG 2 will be operated by SoE - how come it is taken as a fact here ?
It was even not stated that there will be an SWG2, all we've heard so far was an statement from
an LEC-lady, not thinking very well what she is saying there - and causing by this.
So far, it is only a vague idea for future billing models, where the possibillity of another SWG
title was "accediently" implicated in her statement.
And tbh, if it is sposed to be beta in mid 2008, the developement has to start right now, 2 yrs. are not much for such a complex title.
Would you give SoE the SWG2 licence when you have to decide that these days-being in LEC's shoes ?
I wouldnt !
So expect to see some more rumours floating on the net from now on, what companys will be in "negotiation with LEC for an unamed title"
One thing for sure:
This John Smedley-plague is, unfortunatly and obv still in charge, he posted something on the forums yesterday.
He comes from the world of arcadegames, which is very exactly what the NGE looks like today, he cant deny his roots.
I doubt that a complex MMORPG can be operated by a company which CEO is a "2-button 25cnt. 3 minute gamer" - like the world can see and comfirm: NGE.
You really have to explain to me, how a brand (Star Wars®) keeping the generations excited since 30 yrs, with bazillion of fans around the globe through all generations, with a million kids within the fanbase owning computers, willing to pay and play - please explain how such "selfgoing brand" is not the worlds game No.1 with 5 millions active subscribers, but a "noname" fantasy game -no.654 of all fantasygames- holds the thrown, explain this to me please...
If i would be in charge at LEC for this title, SoE would be the first leaving the "potential candidates list" for SWG 2 - and for SWG 1 as well, btw.
Having the one and only Star Wars MMORPG under licence and dulling around with 80K (dont ask me..) subscribers these days - you must have put a mount of Bantha poo in the box making no1 buying it - or you are so very incompetent driving all potential customers away, that you need to be removed asap.
But sitting in the chair and infesting the intelligent world around you with crap like "Asian market visions", like this Smagma dude is doing all day while holding up the NGE code to develope on from there, while almost 200K subscribers are leaving your game DUE to these changes: This is really and seriously some very "weired" business tactic which (imho) needs some "rehearsal" of the responsibles.
Statements like
"The NGE will be realized in 6 phases, adding/extending things over time - we are currently in phase 1", im sorry you human beings with a brain:
Such nonsense is supposed to go into alpha status on closed testservers, but has no room on productionsservers charging you for that.
Mr. Smedley might want to consider, that there will be no1 left to "enjoy" the phase 6 of the SWG-Supernintendoversion.
Sony Online Entertainment has nothing on the market which is remarkable.
All their titles are "somewhere" in the gamecharts, nothing is even top 20 (Battlefront and other titles are LA, not SoE).
There are many other companys who show off how to operate successive titles, like Blizzard, Arena etc.
And these reigns will be extended by new companys soon, when title like Heros Journey, Star Trek Online and Pirates of the burning see hit the shelves.
But SoE will still be not found on these charts then.
They really should start to see their horrid mistakes and expensive failures and start cleaning up the mess and reverse the damage they have done - before Mr. Smedley thinks he must "fertilize" the world with his unimportant marketing visions of far east.
I am sorry in advance if i do sound grouchy about SoE, this is most likeley because i am.
You all have a nice day !
Claude
I guess it's assumed it's SOE because a) She mentions it would be based around the same subscription scheme that SOE wants to use for future games and b) It would most likely already be in development (the very early stages anyway), and since SOE still has the licence it's a good guess that it's being developed by them.
Nancy is the senior director of SWG at LA, I kinda doubt she would let something like this slip out along with a potential release date "without thinking".
She is employeed with "LucasArt Entertainment Company" (LEC) which isnt Lucas Art to be exactly
She comes from Atari's Beverly Studio before, managing titles for Nintendo.
Nancy MacIntyre is reporting to Jim Ward, which is one of the...lets say "friends" of SoE at LEC.
Jim Ward was assigned as the president of developement at LEC in may 2004, when LEC was "restructured" to safe money...LEC fired more then 30 contracted devs these days !
Jim Ward came over from Lucasfilm ltd. - he was one of the SW-DVD repsonsibles.
This is the commandchain over there, just as an little insight to understand, why such statements make it to public...
The truth is that LEC is not holding the Star Wars® licence, George Lucas is holding the Star Wars licence, so finally Lucas Art.
And believe me when i tell you , that Lucas Art resp. George Lucas is not asking anyone, when it comes to the point of giving out the SWG-2 licence.
THIS is done by numbers that he will inspect before - which is the point of SoE losing the race, plain and simple.
Every single star wars fan out there should pray on his knees, that SoE is NOT getting the SWG2 licence. IF there is such licence anyway.
Claude
She is employeed with "LucasArt Entertainment Company" (LEC) which isnt Lucas Art to be exactly
She comes from Atari's Beverly Studio before, managing titles for Nintendo.
Nancy MacIntyre is reporting to Jim Ward, which is one of the...lets say "friends" of SoE at LEC.
Jim Ward was assigned as the president of developement at LEC in may 2004, when LEC was "restructured" to safe money...LEC fired more then 30 contracted devs these days !
Jim Ward came over from Lucasfilm ltd. - he was one of the SW-DVD repsonsibles.
This is the commandchain over there, just as an little insight to understand, why such statements make it to public...
The truth is that LEC is not holding the Star Wars® licence, George Lucas is holding the Star Wars licence, so finally Lucas Art.
And believe me when i tell you , that Lucas Art resp. George Lucas is not asking anyone, when it comes to the point of giving out the SWG-2 licence.
THIS is done by numbers that he will inspect before - which is the point of SoE losing the race, plain and simple.
Every single star wars fan out there should pray on his knees, that SoE is NOT getting the SWG2 licence. IF there is such licence anyway.
I think you're a little confused. LucasArts Entertainment Company is the same thing as LucasArts, the latter is just the shortform of the former. If you don't believe me, do a Google search of LucasArts Entertainment Company and look at the results. I don't see why you keep bringing up she once worked for Nintendo, what does it matter?
LA/LEC or whatever you want to call them are in charge of giving out the SW license for computer/video games. This is what George Lucas created LucasArts for, so he doesn't have to deal with that sorta stuff.
I am not confused, it was more of a sarcastic remark (LA/LEC) (thats why there was a smiley).
The reason why i mention Nintendo and John Smedleys past with arcade games - do i really need to explain this or will you spend some more thoughts on the deeper meaning on your own ?
You might want to take a look at the NGE, consider their careers and maybe then you will also understand what one has to do with the other - and most important: What to expect...
I think you get the idea now.
Claude
That article is as serious as Sam... Wow, My prognostication of SWG's death is even more imminent!!!!
/cackles
*runs off to underground base to post maniacal thoughts regarding SWG's demise*
What he MEANS. Is that LucasArts is a division of LucasFilms LTD. just as there company website states.
1993
Company:
Lucasfilm Games becomes LucasArts Entertainment Company. Industrial Light & Magic and Skywalker Sound operate within the newly formed Lucas Digital.
JIM WARD
President
LucasArts, A Lucasfilm Ltd. company
Jim Ward is President of LucasArts and Vice President of Marketing and Distribution at Lucasfilm Ltd.
Interestingly LucasFilms lists Jim as a Senior Vice President. Jim Ward frankly doesn't have the education or experience to run a large corporate structure. He may be a great marketer as his bio so wonderfully illustrates but his so called "thunderbird" mba proves his educational experience. The schools program ranks 91st out of 100 programs.
His only management experience has been running a marketing division. He has zero experience in any managerial role in the area of development of products prior to his taking over at Lucas Arts in May of 2004. Which is not ideal but ok if you have a well experienced and vetern of game product development like Peter Hirschmann's
Peter Hirschmann's first video game work that SPOnG is aware of is the title, "Medal of Honor" (Sony PlayStation) as Project Leader/Producer.
Peter has been involved with titles released on the PlayStation in the role of Project Leader/Producer, and has worked with Dreamworks. Of the worked on, "Medal of Honor" (PlayStation) has been a best selling title. At LA after he left EA he was involved with such titles as Secret Weapons Over Normandy and the upcoming games (now published) Star Wars Battlefront and Mercenaries.
He has been in that position since Aug. 2004
The person of interest in this piece is a man named Howard Hoffman. He is probably one of George Lucas's most trusted advisors and makes all Licensing decisions regarding Lucas Products. President of Lucas Licensing Howard Roffman was born and raised in Philadelphia, Penn. He attended the University of Pennsylvania and, after obtaining his law degree in 1977 from the University of Florida College of Law, he served for one year as a law clerk to the Honorable Bryan Simpson in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Thereafter, he worked for two years as an associate at the Washington D.C. law firm of Morgan, Lewis & Bockius. In 1980 he joined Lucasfilm as legal counsel and soon after was promoted to general counsel. In 1984, Roffman served as acting chief operating officer.
In these various positions, Roffman was able to combine business executive functions with creative marketing skills as he was involved in all facets of Lucasfilm's operations from general management to film production, special effects, post production and licensing, which led to his appointment in 1986 as the company's Vice President of Licensing. In 1999, Roffman was appointed President of Lucas Licensing.
Jim and Pete would have to ask Mr. Roffman to license out swg2. You think this happened? You think that something like this doesn't get the nod from senor Lucas himself?
Just asking cause all the flak I catch for my belief that Lucas (himself) was unhappy with SOE and had the game licensed to someone else for the second release of the MMO.
And if Lucas himself was upset at SOE and was going to give the license to someone else, do you think you'd know about but his own people wouldn't?
Do you think if your boss came in one day and said he hated the company that was running a certin aspect of the company, then would you do a press release stating that the company your boss hated would be taking on another aspect?
And if Lucas himself was upset at SOE and was going to give the license to someone else, do you think you'd know about but his own people wouldn't?
Hasn't soe been deleting all references to this post on its forums?
I don't know I don't go there very often, but I'm not sure what your point is?
My point is this: Someone from LucasArts (yes LucasArts NOT SOE) stated that SOE will be doing SWG2. If George Lucas himself was upset with SOE, I think everyone in his company would know he was upset with SOE and wouldn't be having his people make these kinds of claims.
EDIT: It was pointed out in another thread that the LucasArts Rep didn't actually name SOE in her statements. So this does actually lend weight the the George Lucas is pissed theory.
If you read it in context she's also speaking hypothetically so despite all the threads reading in what wasn't there SWG2 has not been confirmed at all much less from who or when. Then there's the, at best, tenous grip on reality she's displayed in the few previous comments. "too much reading" "kill, loot, repeat" etc.
Exactly... she never mentions $OE as the developer.
I'd believe at this point they will either beg Blizzard to develop it, or go it alone. There's two big reasons they'd do one of the two...
Bliz - Sucessful design and a large database.
Alone - Build an MMORPG and own it outright. Total control they crave.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
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