Originally posted by Taipans ...but if the game isnt suppose to be an MMORPG then dont label it as one!
D&D Online has some nice graphicsand that's it, nothing else good to say.
D&D was supposed to be a MMORPG but Turbine became infected with WoWincomestreamitis, so they tried to make a better WoW instead. The liquor and cocaine flowed in celebration of this brilliant strategic move. Everyone at Storm Reach dreamed of all the money they were gonna make.
Then, reality came crashing through the haze: gamers who had played old school D&D now tried the online version, and thought it was crap! Turbine went into denial immediately, comforting themselves with notions like it's only beta...this is just the stress test...the game is still being tweaked etc., but the rest of us knew that D&D was destine to be just another game with a low subscriber base.
I admire Taipans' attitude, though. He gave D&D a good shot, he wanted it to be a winner but Storm Reach couldn't deliver the goods.
Originally posted by Elnator I was in beta and wasn't overly impressed. DDO isn't a "bad" game but it doesn't feel like an MMORPG and the instancing is over-done. It feels like your average evening of Neverwinter Nights played over the internet with a few friends but with better graphics. Which, as I said... isn't BAD... but an MMO? Not really. It just doesn't have that feel. As someone else said it feels like Guildwars.... but guildwars has no monthly fee.Nothing *wrong* with the game... just not worth a monthly fee to me.I love that they instanced dungeons... but the city and world should NOT be instanced... that takes away the feeling of being in a world. And there is no reason for so MANY areas to be instanced. And I *hate* that they went with zoning on the surface. I prefer a seamless world with zone lines restricted only to areas that absolutely need them. EQ2 has too many zones... this has more.
I could be wrong but I think this could very well be the feeling they were going for. DnD from my limited experience (mostly novels, Forgotten Realms and Eberron along with games such as Neverwinter Nights, Baulder's Gate 2, Dark Alliance 1 and 2, Forgotten Realms game) the thing that made DnD good was the ability to quest with people on a small basis. You were the heroes in your own story.
I don't think think having an open world the way most mmorpgs have would actually work with a DnD Online game. In a PnP game, you kill something or do something it stays that way. Same for even the computer DnD games. You do something it stays that way. To recreate the experience, even to a certain degree you have to have it somewhat like that, where certain changes stay changed. The only way one can really do that would be through instances with having roaming monsters on public zones. Is it the best way to go about it? I'm not really sure to be honest. I don't think this is actually bad either. I"m still looking forward to D&D Online. Especially since I really enjoy the Eberron setting, FR is good as well but I think that there is just way to much going on with the FR at the moment to really do it justice without not including a LOT of things unless they do it like they did with Eberron and base it around one city. Waterdeep would most likely work for a FR mmorpg but you have so much info on Waterdeep that you'd have so many people up in arms if it didn't turn exactly as it should and placing it in a certain time period would be hard as well. Eberron, being new and the area around Stormreach being still somewhat unknown and untouched gives a certain amount of freedom.
I agree that cities shouldn't be instanced. Certain areas around it shouldnt' be either. Though I have no problem with dungeons, quest areas, areas with named creatures to kill, etc being instanced. Don't mind zone lines either. After starting with EQ1 in mmorpgs and then trying out others that really isn't a think that bothers me though I can see how it could bother others.
In the end they might be going for the whole night of Neverwinter Nights with a group of people feel. You can't really recreate the pen and paper feel in a computer game. I've never played the pen and paper versions but I can imagine what it would be like and what I"m missing in a computer game but I think you can come somewhat close at times.
While on the topic, what will the monthly fee be? Has Turbine said yet?
Just to talk about D&D Online in general I always felt from the start it was going to be really different then most mmorpg. Mostly due to how the actual D&D was setup. Most people do realize that in a pen and paper game there are like 10 levels, takes forever to get there, then there are the advance classes and then the multiclassing. To cast spells you have a set number of times to cast, then you have to rest and reready them to be cast again. A character's life points are low and magic isn't to be messed with (no constantly through fireballs or other magic since it's dangerous). Take even the computer games. It's so annoying at times but I can see why it is the way it is and would be fun in a paper setting since it part of way makes it interesting when a story is being told to the players sitting around you. D&D is pretty specific as well in how things are suppose to be calculated battle wise and how classes are suppose to act. Many of the games try to hold true to this even if they have to make certain changes due to a game being on the PC or console.
If they simply did away with these things or didn't even bother to try and recreate the feel to a certain degree Turbine would have been better off doing an original mmorpg since it wouldn't be a D&D game. If they are trying to keep to the important aspects of the franchise then I can expect D&D will be different and people will have to look at it differently then it simply being another mmorpg.
People are going have to look at it I think as the following. A D&D game that happens to be a mmorpg. Not a mmorpg that is based in D&D or has a D&D setting.
Originally posted by Calcedon D and D online isnt an MMORPG, and neither is Guildwars. Having played both, they play exactly the way there were designed to. If you are dissapointed that D and D isnt an MMORPG world, then maybe you simply are confused on what an MMORPG is. I played D and D online and had a blast with people from around the world. Crawling through dungeons, getting deeper into them, etc was really a lot of fun. So here is my advice: If you actually thought D and D was a true MMORPG, maybe read more about what the game is, before actually playing it. Ciao!
Good post. Turbine and Wizards of the Coast accomplished exactly what they set out to with Dungeons and Dragons Online. The problem is that players come into a new game expecting to see the same features and game mechanics from one to the other.
DDO is a departure from many of the standard mmorpg game systems. It has a new type of combat and character advancement system. It has a whole new feeling to it, being more intricate and offering more of a small, group-oriented atmosphere.
I read peoples comments and it is obvious that they were expecting a large, seamless game world with so much freedom to explore and do many different things. DDO was not meant for that. It was meant for exactly what we PnPers do, meet other adventurers and explore dungeons, get rich, and become more powerful.
I won't go into detail with my view of the various aspects of the game, but after playing, I've discovered how the combat is more than just twitchy hack and slash. I see how groups can combine the unique talents of each member to complete puzzles and mission. The missions were often different from one another and had us doing anything from escorting to seek and destroy.
One of the biggest improvements that's in DDO is the EXP for questing instead of farming mobs. While I like it for this reason, many players who enjoy the grind of farming will not like DDO. It all comes down to what's fitting for you, and just because a game isn't your style, it doesn't mean it "sucks"
Originally posted by Tymora Originally posted by Calcedon D and D online isnt an MMORPG, and neither is Guildwars. Having played both, they play exactly the way there were designed to. If you are dissapointed that D and D isnt an MMORPG world, then maybe you simply are confused on what an MMORPG is. I played D and D online and had a blast with people from around the world. Crawling through dungeons, getting deeper into them, etc was really a lot of fun. So here is my advice: If you actually thought D and D was a true MMORPG, maybe read more about what the game is, before actually playing it. Ciao! Good post. Turbine and Wizards of the Coast accomplished exactly what they set out to with Dungeons and Dragons Online. The problem is that players come into a new game expecting to see the same features and game mechanics from one to the other. DDO is a departure from many of the standard mmorpg game systems. It has a new type of combat and character advancement system. It has a whole new feeling to it, being more intricate and offering more of a small, group-oriented atmosphere. I read peoples comments and it is obvious that they were expecting a large, seamless game world with so much freedom to explore and do many different things. DDO was not meant for that. It was meant for exactly what we PnPers do, meet other adventurers and explore dungeons, get rich, and become more powerful. I won't go into detail with my view of the various aspects of the game, but after playing, I've discovered how the combat is more than just twitchy hack and slash. I see how groups can combine the unique talents of each member to complete puzzles and mission. The missions were often different from one another and had us doing anything from escorting to seek and destroy. One of the biggest improvements that's in DDO is the EXP for questing instead of farming mobs. While I like it for this reason, many players who enjoy the grind of farming will not like DDO. It all comes down to what's fitting for you, and just because a game isn't your style, it doesn't mean it "sucks"
I never said it sucks... matter of fact I never even said it was a bad game... in fact I emphatically said it's NOT a bad game. What I did say is: It is not worth a monthly fee. I can get a BETTER AD&D experience in Neverwinter Nights. And there's no monthly fee for that.
That said: As an avid and long time player of AD&D (since the late 70's) it does NOT feel like AD&D at all.
That is my single gripe with the game. For a game to use the name Dungeons & Dragons I expect it to FEEL like Dungeons & Dragons. And, frankly, EQ did a better job of that than this does. I DO like the quest based XP, that is very cool. But I don't like that it's not a seamless world. IMNSHO I think that the only areas that should be instanced in this game are dungeons and quest zones. The *world* should be seamless except for specific instanced content that is 'adventure' related. IE: The adventures should be instanced. The WORLD should not.
Also I am not a big fan of grinding. I MUCH prefer quest based XP. I think it is VERY cool that they did that. My single LARGEST gripes about DDO are: 1) too much instancing and way too much zoning. 2) too twitch based combat. Yes, you can combine skills, etc, but the twichy combat has got to go. I play RPG's specifically because I DO NOT want to play a twitch game. If I wanna play a twitch game I'll hop on my X-Box and play Revenge of the Sith.
I also think that NO quests in DDO should be repeatable. Which means they need to increase the number of in game quests available DRASTICALLY so that people don't need to repeat any quests. If they don't all they're doing is replacing the 'kill X monsters" grind with "do this quest X times" grind.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Tymora Good post. Turbine and Wizards of the Coast accomplished exactly what they set out to with Dungeons and Dragons Online. The problem is that players come into a new game expecting to see the same features and game mechanics from one to the other. I had no false expectations from this game. I followed it for a while and knew exactly what it was going to be and exactly what I was getting into. I simply found that I did not like it. DDO is a departure from many of the standard mmorpg game systems. It has a new type of combat and character advancement system. It has a whole new feeling to it, being more intricate and offering more of a small, group-oriented atmosphere. One of the things that irks me is when certain MMOs are lauded for 'original' features that have been around in other game genres for years. This is probably what irritates me most about DDO--at it's core its simply an action game that you can play online. Nothing jumped out at me and made me think "Oh my God, I've never experienced anything like this before!" On the contrary, I can get the same type of gameplay DDO offers by inviting a couple of my buddies over and playing something like Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance. I read peoples comments and it is obvious that they were expecting a large, seamless game world with so much freedom to explore and do many different things. DDO was not meant for that. It was meant for exactly what we PnPers do, meet other adventurers and explore dungeons, get rich, and become more powerful. And this is another problem of mine. What you describe in the red text above is only a very narrow, cliched aspect of D&D. Many, including myself, have played D&D for the roleplaying and story (which is almost nonexistent and totally incohesive in DDO right now), and not to simply bash heads and get mad loot. I don't think I'm alone when I say that the vast majority of the campaigns that I ran invoved very few dungeon crawls. I won't go into detail with my view of the various aspects of the game, but after playing, I've discovered how the combat is more than just twitchy hack and slash. I see how groups can combine the unique talents of each member to complete puzzles and mission. The missions were often different from one another and had us doing anything from escorting to seek and destroy. Many other MMOs have escorting and seek and destroy missions--too many in fact. Just pointing that out. One of the biggest improvements that's in DDO is the EXP for questing instead of farming mobs. While I like it for this reason, many players who enjoy the grind of farming will not like DDO. It all comes down to what's fitting for you, and just because a game isn't your style, it doesn't mean it "sucks" Yes, DDO certianly got rid of the mob grinding, and replaced it with quest grinding. You cannot be blind to that fact. You know it's one of the main gripes in beta right now--repeating quests dozens of times to level once you run out of content.
I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong here--just stating my countering OPINIONS to your OPINIONS.
Originally posted by Calcedon D and D online isnt an MMORPG, and neither is Guildwars. Having played both, they play exactly the way there were designed to. If you are dissapointed that D and D isnt an MMORPG world, then maybe you simply are confused on what an MMORPG is. I played D and D online and had a blast with people from around the world. Crawling through dungeons, getting deeper into them, etc was really a lot of fun. So here is my advice: If you actually thought D and D was a true MMORPG, maybe read more about what the game is, before actually playing it. Ciao!
I fear DDO labaled itself a mmo solely to warrent a sub charge... and thats dangerous. If DDO has any sort of success other companies may try this also for no other reason then there will be people willing to pay. Any game that offers its players servers such as BF2 and any diablo 2 clone can just add in a commen area for peolpe to meet in and voila they will charge us simply because they can and we will pay.
I read up alittle on Hellgate london and technically its more of an mmo then DDO is yet Bill Roeper already stated,"its not an mmo and there will be no sub charge", yet outa greed the publisher may change there minds especially if DDO gets away with... heck a sub charge will probably more then triple there profits.
Many people argue that the sub charge is there for content updates... imo that is worse, I would rather pay for expansions . At least that way if the devs want more money they have incentive to work harder and give us something good. Paying sub charge is like paying someone by the hour to renovate your home...they'll end up taking coffee breaks during there lunch breaks, best way is to pay for job done.
In expansion updates you also get the option of not buying if you are not happy with what they've done... with sub charge its to late you already payed for it. Just think about th, SWG screwed over its vets in order to attract new players alla NGE...isnt it sad and ironic that it was the vets sub charges that payed the devs salary while they were screwing them. They shouldve at least emailed the vets a kiss b4.
Oh and on Hellgate being more of a mmo then DDO heres a comparison ...info from hellgate guru fansite.
DDO offers static quest you can do( have to do) with others (same quests over and over)/ Hellgate offers dynamic quests ever changing you can do alone or with friends.
DDO offers ONE city to meet in/ hellgate offers MANY waypoints and safe zones for its players to meet in and trade loot.
Hmmm thats all I can think of for DDO / Hellgate: pvp and rankings, competition is a form of player interaction
DDo ..i still cant think of anything else / Hellgate , in certain zones the amount of mobs you kill effect the spawn rate of mobs in other peoples zones sort of a PVE vs PVE you can test to see which guild is the best at completing quest the fastest.
For the record I dont believe that hellgate is an mmo ...just more of an mmo then ddo
Also on the subject of the spirit of d&d... I think most anyone thats ever played d&d and video games have been waiting for a true d&d mmo...not d&d multiplayer we already got some of those but mmo. Sure you never had strangers walk into your living room in the past and interact with your quest, but why are they limiting them selves to what couldnt be done 30 years ago. YET all the fun stuff like playing evil characters, freedom( non linear quests) THEY SAY," hey this isnt the PnP, this is the online game. We cant make it the same".
DDO imho is too much by the book. Only hardcore pen and paper D&D player will enjoy it. And making the game all instance is a big mistake imho. So right there you have 2 strikes. Do you think they will get enough of these hardcore D&D players to make the game viable ? My answer is no.
I agree, DnD such a let down. I had such high hopes for it because I thought, here it is DnD online, the original fantasy game, what every other game is based off of! It has to be good... but boy was I wrong..
Maybe this might have been asked, for those that feel letdown what exactly did you think the game was going to be like? Not trying to be funny or rude or anything but what did you actually think the game was going to be like or better yet what where you expecting verse what was delievered? Why did you expect these things from a D&D game or were you looking at it as another mmorpg with just a D&D setting?
Like I said before I think one has to look at this game as a D&D game first and a mmorpg second instead of as a mmorpg first and a D&D game/setting second. I think there is a difference.
One can read the site and get one impression, or a person can see the word mmorpg and get another impression when they include the world of D&D (though the Eberron setting is new and there are several D&D settings and each differ in feel and atmoshpere). One can come to expect certain things from a fantasy game but D&D isn't your generic fantasy I feel, especially when you look at the table top game.
Originally posted by Aguitha DDO imho is too much by the book. Only hardcore pen and paper D&D player will enjoy it. And making the game all instance is a big mistake imho. So right there you have 2 strikes. Do you think they will get enough of these hardcore D&D players to make the game viable ? My answer is no.
Actually, it's quite the other way around. The hardcore D&D players are the ones that have the biggest problem with the game. The game is actually best suited for those who have no major preconceptions of D&D going into it.
Originally posted by kable I fear DDO labaled itself a mmo solely to warrent a sub charge... and thats dangerous. If DDO has any sort of success other companies may try this also for no other reason then there will be people willing to pay.
Now I am confused, is this not the single best reason to charge for anything, EVER?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I am confused, is this not the single best reason to charge for anything, EVER?
I dont understand what you mean? I never thought of it the way Kable put it. This might just be the beginning of a trend. MMO = monthly charge, games that are online capable but dont use the term MMO for the most part stray away from a monthly fee to play. DDO feels like a single player game, with a multiplayer aspect thrown in to get the MMO title, thus warrenting a monthly fee to play?
And on another note, someone mentioned "what did you expect"? Well you shouldnt always read what you believe, and maybe I was spoiled by DAOC, WOW and EQ2, but those in my mind are MMORPGs. So once DDO was officially announced as an MMORPG. I kinda was hopeful it would atleast bare some resemblance to the latter games. You can still be innovative without straying away from the standard mmorpg formula. But this game is NOT an MMORPG atleast in my opinion. Its just a cash in that is using the D&D license.
Well, I just signed up to thes forums thinking it would be cool to find out about the upcoming games Im excited about and this is the first thread I came to....my expectations were / are similar to many other DnD fans that were looking to this game to bring the mother of all rpgs and the latest technology together. Seems like we might be disappointed.
Anyway, I will reserve judgement till I try it. Everyone has different tastes. Maybe going into it with lowered expectataions will help. I've always thought hype was a bad thing, almost nothing can live up to it's hype in any field.
Now I am confused, is this not the single best reason to charge for anything, EVER?
I dont understand what you mean? I never thought of it the way Kable put it. This might just be the beginning of a trend. MMO = monthly charge, games that are online capable but dont use the term MMO for the most part stray away from a monthly fee to play. DDO feels like a single player game, with a multiplayer aspect thrown in to get the MMO title, thus warrenting a monthly fee to play?
And on another note, someone mentioned "what did you expect"? Well you shouldnt always read what you believe, and maybe I was spoiled by DAOC, WOW and EQ2, but those in my mind are MMORPGs. So once DDO was officially announced as an MMORPG. I kinda was hopeful it would atleast bare some resemblance to the latter games. You can still be innovative without straying away from the standard mmorpg formula. But this game is NOT an MMORPG atleast in my opinion. Its just a cash in that is using the D&D license.
I think umbrood was being sarcastic...at least I hope so.
I agree when you say " its just a cash in". DDO feels like it was designed by the suits... they never tryed to make a great game ...just an ok game that will sell because of its name. Lets face it no pvp, no crafting , no world to explore, no solo content no lvls 11-20 and they still didnt have time to finish 2 of the major classes( druid and monk). I call balony, I think they withheld these classes on purpose just too have an excuse to sell me to us through an expansion ( ontop of sub charges )
I think umbrood was being sarcastic...at least I hope so.
Perhaps a bit, but that does not mean I was not serious as well.
If someone is willing to pay for something, is that not the best reason that can possibly exist for charging for that thing?
I mean would that not mean that BOTH parties are satisfied?
We are, after all, living in a market economy, and I for one would not want it any other way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no crafting or pvp in D&D from what I recall. When you play, you are apart of a group with a person telling the story and presenting challenges.
My biggest beef is there's nothing to do BUT quest and buy/sell stuff. Oh sure you can sit around the tavern and chat it up, but I can do that anywhere on the net. Talk to npc, get quest, go to dungeon, complete quest and do all over again and again and again. You have no other choices in the game. It's very linear and that bothers me coming from a vast non-linear type gaming system.
Originally posted by Calcedon D and D online isnt an MMORPG, and neither is Guildwars. Having played both, they play exactly the way there were designed to. If you are dissapointed that D and D isnt an MMORPG world, then maybe you simply are confused on what an MMORPG is. I played D and D online and had a blast with people from around the world. Crawling through dungeons, getting deeper into them, etc was really a lot of fun.So here is my advice: If you actually thought D and D was a true MMORPG, maybe read more about what the game is, before actually playing it. Ciao!
What is Dungeons & Dragons Online? Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) is a fun, action-packed, massively-multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) that allows thousands of players to participate in a story-driven D&D campaign. DDO features swashbuckling adventures, betrayal and intrigue, and lots and lots of deep, dark, dangerous, trap-riddled dungeons.
Originally posted by kable I think umbrood was being sarcastic...at least I hope so.
Perhaps a bit, but that does not mean I was not serious as well. If someone is willing to pay for something, is that not the best reason that can possibly exist for charging for that thing? I mean would that not mean that BOTH parties are satisfied? We are, after all, living in a market economy, and I for one would not want it any other way.
Ahh I understand your point now...and agree 100%. I have faith in the consumer( us in this case) and dont really believe in my own scenario above( all online games such as BF2 charging us sub fees).
However that being said, it wouldnt be the first time a greedy company took advantage of a scenario to make a few extra bucks. The current scenario: mmo genre not yet properly defined, using the name of a popular franchise and riding the wave created by wow.
Will DDO make money - Definatly, there is no question
Will DDO change the way we pay for all games - No way we are smarter then that
Will DDO effect the genre negatively - It may .. we will see. All markets go through negative trends.
[quote]What is Dungeons & Dragons Online? Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) is a fun, action-packed, massively-multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) that allows thousands of players to participate in a story-driven D&D campaign. DDO features swashbuckling adventures, betrayal and intrigue, and lots and lots of deep, dark, dangerous, trap-riddled dungeons.[/quote]
I think people should also take into account wha tthe rest of that says. Story-driven D&D campaign. I think that should and could explain all the instances. If you as the player are playing through a campaign, then that would only work if you are actually able to complete and go through the story (exp only for quest) and waiting for a camp to spawn to kill wouldn't be very D&D ish would it? That right there sets D&D apart from other games. In other mmorpgs they advertise that you will be able to play in their world (how ever they describe it), D&DO seems to be saying you will be playing in their story campaign. Personally I think that is a significant think that some might have either ignored or missed. While that doesn't go out and say instances out the ear, should make peopel stop and think for a moment of how this will be done.
Like or dislike (comes down to different taste in the end), just wondering if we are all looking at it as how the game is being presented or how we think a mmorpg should be just because it's a mmorpg. I"ve made that mistake before. It is a mmorpg. It just doesn't seem to be a presistant world, which is what other games call attention to when they advertise, D&DO doesn't seem to be calling attention to that element but just the story campaign.
Originally posted by kable However that being said, it wouldnt be the first time a greedy company took advantage of a scenario to make a few extra bucks. The current scenario: mmo genre not yet properly defined, using the name of a popular franchise and riding the wave created by wow.
Agreed, but that is after all their job.
Ours is to judge them in the end make them regret it should they go to far.
Instancing or not I assume DDO did cost just as much, ( or more concidering the licences and what not ), to make and will have a pretty similar run-cost to other MMORPG's.
But in the end, they can label it what they want, I think the media, ( like this place ), and we the consumers are the ones who decide what is what.
After all you can not just take some bag-in-box white wine, carburate it, and call it Champagne, well I suppose you could, but you better be prepared to go to war with France, as well as a couple consumers...
( I will refrain from any Red Foreman comments to that last sentence )
Myself, I am not much for labels anyway, I define things by "good", "fun", or "sucks"..
Humans tendency to slap labels on everything I am certain has a lot to answer for in this world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more I read posts on this topic, the more I realize that people all want different types of things from th mmorpg they play. No single mmo will have all the features I am looking for. Some will have key features that I look for, and that is why I like DDO.
No matter what your opinion is about it's relation to the PnP game, to me it feels like B&D, more than any other mmo I've played. To say that Everquest felt more like D&D is somthing I can't understand, as that is Norrath, this is Eberron.
The roleplaying and community happen to be big things I look for. DDO appears to have the community I like, it is yet to be seen if there will be the kind of RP I am looking for.
There are certain features that are unique to DDO, even if they are just a little bit different, at least Turbine took a chance and tried something a little off the mark compared to other mmos. The combat is more interactive. If you look away for a second, you will miss something. In almost any other mmo, this is not the case. You click auto attack, and you don't necessaryily have to stick around to see the outcome, unless you want to use special abilities as some newer mmorpgs have started using in combat.
Also, I have not played a mmo that took a variety of classes and made them each vital to completing the games missions. Some are more important than others depending on the situation. Please name an MMO that is similar? There are none, because they all must also satisdy the solo gamer, whereas DDO is meant for groups.
This leads me to my next important feature. I am a social player and I rarely, if ever, solo. What better mmo to get into than DDO, where grouping is a focus of the game and this directly comes from the PnP game, where you played with friends.
If Turbine made DDO less instanced with a larger, seamless main world, I wouldn't complain at all. I wonder if it would still feel like D&D, though, and not just another mmorpg clone of Everquest or World of Warcraft. I am not a fan of instancing at all in these types of games, but in mmos like Guild Wars and DDO, I think they are fitting. It helps to make the atmosphere of the game feel like you are more central to what's going on in Stormreach, instead of just another adventurer among the dozens.
Roleplaying is what the players make of it. I can't comment on it yet in DDO, there wasnt much in the stress tests, but I hope there will be a lot once the retail hits stores.
Finally, I just want to say that I read these posts and respect other opinoins about the game. These initial comments of mine may change after a few month of playing DDO. I don't see how anyone can make definitive remarks about DDO before it is even release in its final release version, but initial impressions are important, I guess.
You make some very good points Umbrood that i can not refute. I am still hoping for the best from this game( if not for me, then for those of you that do play it )... I'm just dissapointed with many decisions turbine has made so far... Although I truly could afford the sub charge its not about the money. Its about the future quality. I dont agree on paying in advance solely on future content ( see my post above)
SWG made some pretty bad decisions recently I think were based on greed. This was a blow to the mmo genre on a whole. I hope DDO doesnt kick it now in the teeth.
Originally posted by Umbrood
Agreed, but that is after all their job. Ours is to judge them in the end make them regret it should they go to far.
Unfortunatly its the companies that come after end up regreting it. They get an uphill battle to regain cosumer cofidence.
Originally posted by Calcedon D and D online isnt an MMORPG, and neither is Guildwars. Having played both, they play exactly the way there were designed to. If you are dissapointed that D and D isnt an MMORPG world, then maybe you simply are confused on what an MMORPG is. I played D and D online and had a blast with people from around the world. Crawling through dungeons, getting deeper into them, etc was really a lot of fun.
So here is my advice: If you actually thought D and D was a true MMORPG, maybe read more about what the game is, before actually playing it. Ciao!
What is Dungeons & Dragons Online? Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) is a fun, action-packed, massively-multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) that allows thousands of players to participate in a story-driven D&D campaign. DDO features swashbuckling adventures, betrayal and intrigue, and lots and lots of deep, dark, dangerous, trap-riddled dungeons.
Comments
D&D Online has some nice graphicsand that's it, nothing else good to say.
D&D was supposed to be a MMORPG but Turbine became infected with WoWincomestreamitis, so they tried to make a better WoW instead. The liquor and cocaine flowed in celebration of this brilliant strategic move. Everyone at Storm Reach dreamed of all the money they were gonna make.
Then, reality came crashing through the haze: gamers who had played old school D&D now tried the online version, and thought it was crap! Turbine went into denial immediately, comforting themselves with notions like it's only beta...this is just the stress test...the game is still being tweaked etc., but the rest of us knew that D&D was destine to be just another game with a low subscriber base.
I admire Taipans' attitude, though. He gave D&D a good shot, he wanted it to be a winner but Storm Reach couldn't deliver the goods.
(Edit: spelling errors)
I could be wrong but I think this could very well be the feeling they were going for. DnD from my limited experience (mostly novels, Forgotten Realms and Eberron along with games such as Neverwinter Nights, Baulder's Gate 2, Dark Alliance 1 and 2, Forgotten Realms game) the thing that made DnD good was the ability to quest with people on a small basis. You were the heroes in your own story.
I don't think think having an open world the way most mmorpgs have would actually work with a DnD Online game. In a PnP game, you kill something or do something it stays that way. Same for even the computer DnD games. You do something it stays that way. To recreate the experience, even to a certain degree you have to have it somewhat like that, where certain changes stay changed. The only way one can really do that would be through instances with having roaming monsters on public zones. Is it the best way to go about it? I'm not really sure to be honest. I don't think this is actually bad either. I"m still looking forward to D&D Online. Especially since I really enjoy the Eberron setting, FR is good as well but I think that there is just way to much going on with the FR at the moment to really do it justice without not including a LOT of things unless they do it like they did with Eberron and base it around one city. Waterdeep would most likely work for a FR mmorpg but you have so much info on Waterdeep that you'd have so many people up in arms if it didn't turn exactly as it should and placing it in a certain time period would be hard as well. Eberron, being new and the area around Stormreach being still somewhat unknown and untouched gives a certain amount of freedom.
I agree that cities shouldn't be instanced. Certain areas around it shouldnt' be either. Though I have no problem with dungeons, quest areas, areas with named creatures to kill, etc being instanced. Don't mind zone lines either. After starting with EQ1 in mmorpgs and then trying out others that really isn't a think that bothers me though I can see how it could bother others.
In the end they might be going for the whole night of Neverwinter Nights with a group of people feel. You can't really recreate the pen and paper feel in a computer game. I've never played the pen and paper versions but I can imagine what it would be like and what I"m missing in a computer game but I think you can come somewhat close at times.
While on the topic, what will the monthly fee be? Has Turbine said yet?
Just to talk about D&D Online in general I always felt from the start it was going to be really different then most mmorpg. Mostly due to how the actual D&D was setup. Most people do realize that in a pen and paper game there are like 10 levels, takes forever to get there, then there are the advance classes and then the multiclassing. To cast spells you have a set number of times to cast, then you have to rest and reready them to be cast again. A character's life points are low and magic isn't to be messed with (no constantly through fireballs or other magic since it's dangerous). Take even the computer games. It's so annoying at times but I can see why it is the way it is and would be fun in a paper setting since it part of way makes it interesting when a story is being told to the players sitting around you. D&D is pretty specific as well in how things are suppose to be calculated battle wise and how classes are suppose to act. Many of the games try to hold true to this even if they have to make certain changes due to a game being on the PC or console.
If they simply did away with these things or didn't even bother to try and recreate the feel to a certain degree Turbine would have been better off doing an original mmorpg since it wouldn't be a D&D game. If they are trying to keep to the important aspects of the franchise then I can expect D&D will be different and people will have to look at it differently then it simply being another mmorpg.
People are going have to look at it I think as the following. A D&D game that happens to be a mmorpg. Not a mmorpg that is based in D&D or has a D&D setting.
Good post. Turbine and Wizards of the Coast accomplished exactly what they set out to with Dungeons and Dragons Online. The problem is that players come into a new game expecting to see the same features and game mechanics from one to the other.
DDO is a departure from many of the standard mmorpg game systems. It has a new type of combat and character advancement system. It has a whole new feeling to it, being more intricate and offering more of a small, group-oriented atmosphere.
I read peoples comments and it is obvious that they were expecting a large, seamless game world with so much freedom to explore and do many different things. DDO was not meant for that. It was meant for exactly what we PnPers do, meet other adventurers and explore dungeons, get rich, and become more powerful.
I won't go into detail with my view of the various aspects of the game, but after playing, I've discovered how the combat is more than just twitchy hack and slash. I see how groups can combine the unique talents of each member to complete puzzles and mission. The missions were often different from one another and had us doing anything from escorting to seek and destroy.
One of the biggest improvements that's in DDO is the EXP for questing instead of farming mobs. While I like it for this reason, many players who enjoy the grind of farming will not like DDO. It all comes down to what's fitting for you, and just because a game isn't your style, it doesn't mean it "sucks"
I never said it sucks... matter of fact I never even said it was a bad game... in fact I emphatically said it's NOT a bad game. What I did say is: It is not worth a monthly fee. I can get a BETTER AD&D experience in Neverwinter Nights. And there's no monthly fee for that.
That said:
As an avid and long time player of AD&D (since the late 70's) it does NOT feel like AD&D at all.
That is my single gripe with the game. For a game to use the name Dungeons & Dragons I expect it to FEEL like Dungeons & Dragons. And, frankly, EQ did a better job of that than this does. I DO like the quest based XP, that is very cool. But I don't like that it's not a seamless world. IMNSHO I think that the only areas that should be instanced in this game are dungeons and quest zones. The *world* should be seamless except for specific instanced content that is 'adventure' related. IE: The adventures should be instanced. The WORLD should not.
Also I am not a big fan of grinding. I MUCH prefer quest based XP. I think it is VERY cool that they did that. My single LARGEST gripes about DDO are:
1) too much instancing and way too much zoning.
2) too twitch based combat. Yes, you can combine skills, etc, but the twichy combat has got to go. I play RPG's specifically because I DO NOT want to play a twitch game. If I wanna play a twitch game I'll hop on my X-Box and play Revenge of the Sith.
I also think that NO quests in DDO should be repeatable. Which means they need to increase the number of in game quests available DRASTICALLY so that people don't need to repeat any quests. If they don't all they're doing is replacing the 'kill X monsters" grind with "do this quest X times" grind.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas
I fear DDO labaled itself a mmo solely to warrent a sub charge... and thats dangerous. If DDO has any sort of success other companies may try this also for no other reason then there will be people willing to pay. Any game that offers its players servers such as BF2 and any diablo 2 clone can just add in a commen area for peolpe to meet in and voila they will charge us simply because they can and we will pay.
I read up alittle on Hellgate london and technically its more of an mmo then DDO is yet Bill Roeper already stated,"its not an mmo and there will be no sub charge", yet outa greed the publisher may change there minds especially if DDO gets away with... heck a sub charge will probably more then triple there profits.
Many people argue that the sub charge is there for content updates... imo that is worse, I would rather pay for expansions . At least that way if the devs want more money they have incentive to work harder and give us something good. Paying sub charge is like paying someone by the hour to renovate your home...they'll end up taking coffee breaks during there lunch breaks, best way is to pay for job done.
In expansion updates you also get the option of not buying if you are not happy with what they've done... with sub charge its to late you already payed for it. Just think about th, SWG screwed over its vets in order to attract new players alla NGE...isnt it sad and ironic that it was the vets sub charges that payed the devs salary while they were screwing them. They shouldve at least emailed the vets a kiss b4.
Oh and on Hellgate being more of a mmo then DDO heres a comparison ...info from hellgate guru fansite.
DDO offers static quest you can do( have to do) with others (same quests over and over)/ Hellgate offers dynamic quests ever changing you can do alone or with friends.
DDO offers ONE city to meet in/ hellgate offers MANY waypoints and safe zones for its players to meet in and trade loot.
Hmmm thats all I can think of for DDO / Hellgate: pvp and rankings, competition is a form of player interaction
DDo ..i still cant think of anything else / Hellgate , in certain zones the amount of mobs you kill effect the spawn rate of mobs in other peoples zones sort of a PVE vs PVE you can test to see which guild is the best at completing quest the fastest.
For the record I dont believe that hellgate is an mmo ...just more of an mmo then ddo
Also on the subject of the spirit of d&d... I think most anyone thats ever played d&d and video games have been waiting for a true d&d mmo...not d&d multiplayer we already got some of those but mmo. Sure you never had strangers walk into your living room in the past and interact with your quest, but why are they limiting them selves to what couldnt be done 30 years ago. YET all the fun stuff like playing evil characters, freedom( non linear quests) THEY SAY," hey this isnt the PnP, this is the online game. We cant make it the same".
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Maybe this might have been asked, for those that feel letdown what exactly did you think the game was going to be like? Not trying to be funny or rude or anything but what did you actually think the game was going to be like or better yet what where you expecting verse what was delievered? Why did you expect these things from a D&D game or were you looking at it as another mmorpg with just a D&D setting?
Like I said before I think one has to look at this game as a D&D game first and a mmorpg second instead of as a mmorpg first and a D&D game/setting second. I think there is a difference.
One can read the site and get one impression, or a person can see the word mmorpg and get another impression when they include the world of D&D (though the Eberron setting is new and there are several D&D settings and each differ in feel and atmoshpere). One can come to expect certain things from a fantasy game but D&D isn't your generic fantasy I feel, especially when you look at the table top game.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I dont understand what you mean? I never thought of it the way Kable put it. This might just be the beginning of a trend. MMO = monthly charge, games that are online capable but dont use the term MMO for the most part stray away from a monthly fee to play. DDO feels like a single player game, with a multiplayer aspect thrown in to get the MMO title, thus warrenting a monthly fee to play?
And on another note, someone mentioned "what did you expect"? Well you shouldnt always read what you believe, and maybe I was spoiled by DAOC, WOW and EQ2, but those in my mind are MMORPGs. So once DDO was officially announced as an MMORPG. I kinda was hopeful it would atleast bare some resemblance to the latter games. You can still be innovative without straying away from the standard mmorpg formula. But this game is NOT an MMORPG atleast in my opinion. Its just a cash in that is using the D&D license.
Well, I just signed up to thes forums thinking it would be cool to find out about the upcoming games Im excited about and this is the first thread I came to....my expectations were / are similar to many other DnD fans that were looking to this game to bring the mother of all rpgs and the latest technology together. Seems like we might be disappointed.
Anyway, I will reserve judgement till I try it. Everyone has different tastes. Maybe going into it with lowered expectataions will help. I've always thought hype was a bad thing, almost nothing can live up to it's hype in any field.
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Forever Roguish
I dont understand what you mean? I never thought of it the way Kable put it. This might just be the beginning of a trend. MMO = monthly charge, games that are online capable but dont use the term MMO for the most part stray away from a monthly fee to play. DDO feels like a single player game, with a multiplayer aspect thrown in to get the MMO title, thus warrenting a monthly fee to play?
And on another note, someone mentioned "what did you expect"? Well you shouldnt always read what you believe, and maybe I was spoiled by DAOC, WOW and EQ2, but those in my mind are MMORPGs. So once DDO was officially announced as an MMORPG. I kinda was hopeful it would atleast bare some resemblance to the latter games. You can still be innovative without straying away from the standard mmorpg formula. But this game is NOT an MMORPG atleast in my opinion. Its just a cash in that is using the D&D license.
I think umbrood was being sarcastic...at least I hope so.
I agree when you say " its just a cash in". DDO feels like it was designed by the suits... they never tryed to make a great game ...just an ok game that will sell because of its name. Lets face it no pvp, no crafting , no world to explore, no solo content no lvls 11-20 and they still didnt have time to finish 2 of the major classes( druid and monk). I call balony, I think they withheld these classes on purpose just too have an excuse to sell me to us through an expansion ( ontop of sub charges
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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My biggest beef is there's nothing to do BUT quest and buy/sell stuff. Oh sure you can sit around the tavern and chat it up, but I can do that anywhere on the net. Talk to npc, get quest, go to dungeon, complete quest and do all over again and again and again. You have no other choices in the game. It's very linear and that bothers me coming from a vast non-linear type gaming system.
What is Dungeons & Dragons Online?
Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) is a fun, action-packed, massively-multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) that allows thousands of players to participate in a story-driven D&D campaign. DDO features swashbuckling adventures, betrayal and intrigue, and lots and lots of deep, dark, dangerous, trap-riddled dungeons.
Taken from the official Website --> http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=63
It is a mmorpg
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Ahh I understand your point now...and agree 100%. I have faith in the consumer( us in this case) and dont really believe in my own scenario above( all online games such as BF2 charging us sub fees).
However that being said, it wouldnt be the first time a greedy company took advantage of a scenario to make a few extra bucks. The current scenario: mmo genre not yet properly defined, using the name of a popular franchise and riding the wave created by wow.
Will DDO make money - Definatly, there is no question
Will DDO change the way we pay for all games - No way we are smarter then that
Will DDO effect the genre negatively - It may .. we will see. All markets go through negative trends.
Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) is a fun, action-packed, massively-multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) that allows thousands of players to participate in a story-driven D&D campaign. DDO features swashbuckling adventures, betrayal and intrigue, and lots and lots of deep, dark, dangerous, trap-riddled dungeons.[/quote]
I think people should also take into account wha tthe rest of that says. Story-driven D&D campaign. I think that should and could explain all the instances. If you as the player are playing through a campaign, then that would only work if you are actually able to complete and go through the story (exp only for quest) and waiting for a camp to spawn to kill wouldn't be very D&D ish would it? That right there sets D&D apart from other games. In other mmorpgs they advertise that you will be able to play in their world (how ever they describe it), D&DO seems to be saying you will be playing in their story campaign. Personally I think that is a significant think that some might have either ignored or missed. While that doesn't go out and say instances out the ear, should make peopel stop and think for a moment of how this will be done.
Like or dislike (comes down to different taste in the end), just wondering if we are all looking at it as how the game is being presented or how we think a mmorpg should be just because it's a mmorpg. I"ve made that mistake before. It is a mmorpg. It just doesn't seem to be a presistant world, which is what other games call attention to when they advertise, D&DO doesn't seem to be calling attention to that element but just the story campaign.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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The more I read posts on this topic, the more I realize that people all want different types of things from th mmorpg they play. No single mmo will have all the features I am looking for. Some will have key features that I look for, and that is why I like DDO.
No matter what your opinion is about it's relation to the PnP game, to me it feels like B&D, more than any other mmo I've played. To say that Everquest felt more like D&D is somthing I can't understand, as that is Norrath, this is Eberron.
The roleplaying and community happen to be big things I look for. DDO appears to have the community I like, it is yet to be seen if there will be the kind of RP I am looking for.
There are certain features that are unique to DDO, even if they are just a little bit different, at least Turbine took a chance and tried something a little off the mark compared to other mmos. The combat is more interactive. If you look away for a second, you will miss something. In almost any other mmo, this is not the case. You click auto attack, and you don't necessaryily have to stick around to see the outcome, unless you want to use special abilities as some newer mmorpgs have started using in combat.
Also, I have not played a mmo that took a variety of classes and made them each vital to completing the games missions. Some are more important than others depending on the situation. Please name an MMO that is similar? There are none, because they all must also satisdy the solo gamer, whereas DDO is meant for groups.
This leads me to my next important feature. I am a social player and I rarely, if ever, solo. What better mmo to get into than DDO, where grouping is a focus of the game and this directly comes from the PnP game, where you played with friends.
If Turbine made DDO less instanced with a larger, seamless main world, I wouldn't complain at all. I wonder if it would still feel like D&D, though, and not just another mmorpg clone of Everquest or World of Warcraft. I am not a fan of instancing at all in these types of games, but in mmos like Guild Wars and DDO, I think they are fitting. It helps to make the atmosphere of the game feel like you are more central to what's going on in Stormreach, instead of just another adventurer among the dozens.
Roleplaying is what the players make of it. I can't comment on it yet in DDO, there wasnt much in the stress tests, but I hope there will be a lot once the retail hits stores.
Finally, I just want to say that I read these posts and respect other opinoins about the game. These initial comments of mine may change after a few month of playing DDO. I don't see how anyone can make definitive remarks about DDO before it is even release in its final release version, but initial impressions are important, I guess.
Unfortunatly its the companies that come after end up regreting it. They get an uphill battle to regain cosumer cofidence.
What is Dungeons & Dragons Online?
Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) is a fun, action-packed, massively-multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) that allows thousands of players to participate in a story-driven D&D campaign. DDO features swashbuckling adventures, betrayal and intrigue, and lots and lots of deep, dark, dangerous, trap-riddled dungeons.
Taken from the official Website --> http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=63
It is a mmorpg
I often call myself THE MIGHTY ZEUS, God of sex and fullfiller of womens fantasies everywhere.