Originally posted by Jonsus I am by no means religious, in fact, im an agnostic, but I think that the theory of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes a shitload of sense. I think that Jesus guy said something like that a long time ago.
Exactly. How will we ever get peace in the middle east if all the people see is violence from our side. Hate breeds hate. Violence breeds violence and so on. What makes "us" better if we act like this? If it has to be like this why not just invite Saddam and Bin Laden to a tea party, and start a alliance of united violence?
Those soldier broke every law when it comes about prisoner of war threatment. They should have arrested the boys and delivered them to the MP or whoever handles interrogation in the british army. This is how prisoners how war are supposed to be threated: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
As far as I know justice will happen. 1 person is arrested so far.
It's not understandable that those soldier act like that. No matter how angry they are. Just as a person who pukes each time he sees blood can't become a surgent, or a blind person can't become a pilot, a person who can't handle stress or other situation that can arise in war shouldn't be a soldier. You can't put that much responsibility in the hands of one who can't handle it. On the video it doesn't look like the teenagers are much older than 16 years. They throw rocks. What on earth has a soldier in full kevlar and a fully loaded m16, to fear of a 16 year old throwing stones. Not as much to react like they did.
I have seen many twisted ideas and opinions on the internet. But this has to be the far worst case ever. If you think that violence and torture is the way to run this world you are seriously twisted. And I really hope you never get a political position whatsoever.
Peace in the Middle East?
There has never been peace in the Middle east.
If you were expecting to see peace in the Middle East then you have clearly forgotten the history of the area. The first written histories of the human race come from the Middle East. They describe a long series of wars.
And a person who cannot understand violence will never make a good soldier, nor recognise what is required in one. Soldiers must be aggressive.Agression isn't switched on for 20 seconds and then instantly switched off 20 seconds later. Adrenalin takes time to wear off. The prequisites you give for being a soldier Exclude not only the entire human race but also the animal kingdom
What did Goliath have to fear from David?
A rock to the head at the very least. Although with these soldiers perhaps also a hand grenade or even a sniper bullet wouldn't be too unimaginative given the location. Or a suicide bomb, a car bomb a lorry bomb, a mortar attack an RPG. In this particular circumstance they had to fear an increasing daily level of stoning attacks by day and sniper attacks by night. It was time for them to put a stop to it. There is only so long you can "not fight back" before you must surrender. The British Army didn't surrender. Sorry to have disappointed you.
A 16 year old is perfectly capable of killing. He is by no means a defensless child. Where I live he is defined as an adult.
Would you like to elaborate and explain exactly which sentence of it was contravened in that video? I saw no "Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;" I saw no taking of hostages, or denial of medical services? No torture. What are you talking about?
I've seen Russians cutting off the heads of live Chechens with a knife, I've seen women penetrated by horses. I've seen the pictures of ABu Gharaib, The police shooting unarmed protesters in the back as they run away during the rioting in Geneva and the Rioting in L.A. where the beatings go on and in. I've seen concentration camps and mass graves. If this video is the worst case of "twisted" material you have seen on the internet it is no wonder you have such an oversensetive opinion.
There isn't any torture or threat to life in this video at all. (At least not from the soldiers). If you think that was a video of violence and torture you have lead a very very sheltered life.
You seem desperate to elevate yourself above the rest of us with your high morality. How easy it must be for you to assume all who disagree with you are willing torturers hell bent on spreading evil and mutilating children worldwide. And while I never have any intention of getting into a position politically above you, or in fact politics of any type, you however seem just the type.
To the Ghandi fella, Ghandi was a protester not a soldier.
If the rioters had behaved like Ghandi, the British Army would treat them like they did Ghandi. No one would get whacked and the Army would leave the country.
Originally posted by anderman I thought this thread was pretty tame considering the topic. What has amazed me with this story is the double standards of the British public (of which I am a subject). There has been a big majority supporting the actions of the troops, had those troops been from the USA those very same people would have been going ape about the brutality of the US. This proves the British believe their own press, all we learn in school is the glory of 2 world war victories, unlike Germany we have never had to confront our evil history. Therefore, the public simply won't accept any other line than "the British army are the best in the world" - no matter how much proof exists otherwise. Regardless of the pressure the troops are under, the footage shows they grab the nearest kids available & gave them a beating which is not accetable.
I almost agree with you.
I had to think twice about it.I'm usually guilty of reviling American troops.
Do you remeber the pictures where the U.S. soldier shot the wounded guy dead?
And then the media strung him up. That was wrong. He didn't deserve that. In a combat situation, rightly or wrongly that is his decision to make and his alone. It's a war not every single decision made is going to be a good one, and when it is wrong people may get hurt. You can't take this out of the equation. There is no quick save and reload. When you send your troops into those situations you must be willing to back their plays, even when they get it wrong.
I don't feel these pictures show any particular abuse. The rioters are getting a kicking. Discipline isn't exemplary, but these are soldiers in a warzone, not a domestic police force.
I have to say I find this video a great display of professional soldiering.
"I thought this thread was pretty tame considering the topic."
Considering how tame the "abuse" was and don't see this one as having much longterm media value.
Yes the middle east has been a problem for a long long time. But that doesn't mean the world should just jump in there and continue the beating. I believe that we should work for peace not the opposite.
I don't think I have a high morality. The morality I show here is something my parents, the people I know and the country I live in share. And I have no need/intentions to rise above the rest. These are my beliefs, my morality and political opinions.
I'm not assuming that quote: assume all who disagree with you are willing torturers hell bent on spreading evil and mutilating children worldwide" but the Op and you, to a certain amount, are posting posts that say this is ok to do. Since it's the best way to "educate" people.
I wasn't refering the video as the most twisted thing I have ever seen (Though I haven't watched as much illegal/disgusting material as you have). I was refering to the opinions of the OP.
To me the video clearly falls under:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
For me a unarmed boy who get's a rifle showed in his face, time after time goes under those.
And for the record Ghandi and his followers where in many cases threated far worse than this. Amritsar massacre
Everybody beleives we should work for peace. (Why do you think this makes you, your parents and everyone who lives in your country special? Perhaps it's time for you to go travelling and realise that people all over the world share the same moralities).
The net result of that video IS peace. The rioting is over.
"I'm not assuming that quote: assume all who disagree with you are willing torturers hell bent on spreading evil and mutilating children worldwide" but the Op and you, to a certain amount, are posting posts that say this is ok to do. Since it's the best way to "educate" people.
THERE ARE NO POSTS IN THIS THREAD SAYING TORTURING OR MUTILATING CHILDREN IS OK AND A GOOD WAY TO EDUCATE PEOPLE.
I wasn't refering the video as the most twisted thing I have ever seen (Though I haven't watched as much illegal/disgusting material as you have). I was refering to the opinions of the OP. "
It seems to me that the video material doesn't actually give you much fuel for discontent. Your self-righteous anger demands fuel, and if this video won't sustain it, and the opinions of the posters in this thread won't feed it, then dammit, you'd better make some stuff up to get all upset about yourself.
Cruel treatment. (The infliction of pain)
Cruel treatment is not against the Geneva convention. Cruel treatment and torture is.
THERE IS NO TORTURE IN THAT VIDEO.
Humiliation and degradation.
Am I missing something are they all being stripped naked and forced to sing and dance. Is their holy book being wanked over and thrown into the toilet in front of them?
"For me a unarmed boy who get's a rifle showed in his face, time after time goes under those. "
THERE IS NO UNARMED BOY GETTING A RIFLE SHOWED IN HIS FACE, TIME AFTER TIME IN THAT VIDEO
The men in that video are not so much unarmed, as disarmed. They are captured and disarmed by a snatch squad of unarmed soldiers. (Who are of similar age).
Once again, you have taken sides. You are seeking to portray an event as happening in a way that it clearly has not.
Thanks for the heads up on Ghandi. I have a lot to learn on the history of India. I'm a willing student.
well said baff, i was going to reply but you basically said everything i wanted to. especially the part about there being no 'unarmed boys' in that video, what a rediculous comment to make.
Obviously, people posting that what the soldiers did was wrong have never seen combat. When all hell is breaking loose around you these soldiers are who I would want next to me because I know they won't be afraid to pull the trigger when under fire. Also before combat starts everyone is pretty normal but during action and about 45 mins to an hour after combat everyone involved is pretty much overloaded with adreniline and its pretty hard to control yourself and to always do the right thing. So until you've expierenced what we have don't post any comments about what soldiers do.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Originally posted by seabass2003 Obviously, people posting that what the soldiers did was wrong have never seen combat. When all hell is breaking loose around you these soldiers are who I would want next to me because I know they won't be afraid to pull the trigger when under fire. Also before combat starts everyone is pretty normal but during action and about 45 mins to an hour after combat everyone involved is pretty much overloaded with adreniline and its pretty hard to control yourself and to always do the right thing. So until you've expierenced what we have don't post any comments about what soldiers do.
I agree 100%. But you will never convince the Leftists because they are the ultimate Monday morning quarterback. No matter what any one does they can do it better and more humane, even though they have never been in the situation themselves.
Originally posted by seabass2003 Obviously, people posting that what the soldiers did was wrong have never seen combat. When all hell is breaking loose around you these soldiers are who I would want next to me because I know they won't be afraid to pull the trigger when under fire. Also before combat starts everyone is pretty normal but during action and about 45 mins to an hour after combat everyone involved is pretty much overloaded with adreniline and its pretty hard to control yourself and to always do the right thing. So until you've expierenced what we have don't post any comments about what soldiers do.
The problem is that they keep on doing it... England military has killed over 150 million cilivans in the 1900's and if you want to look it up just do searches of african history under british rule, India -Pakastian history, Ireland,and middle eastern asian History including English rule of Iraq in the 1940's....Plus look at the direct miltary rule of Northern Ireland and Northern England and there support of international terroist including the orange order (KKK its american branch) which is the larget terroist organization in the world....
One reason that alot of states in the Northern US have restrictied Trade status with england...
Originally posted by angerr [quote]Originally posted by SnaKey
Someone lock this thread already. It's bullshit. [/b][/quote] agreed, alot of people are freaking out and insulting other people because they don't agree with them. and that is what is BS..... please lock this thread.
people freaking out and insulting each other is what a forum is about.. unfortunatly this thread will be locked, but people cant deny its been entertaining. [/b][/quote]
wrong...this is a discussion board, it is not what this forum or any other is about. if you are unable to discuss a topic without insulting people because they do not agree with you, you probably shouldn't be here.
I didn't say anything about me and my country being special. You said I was trying to be above everyone else with some kind of "uber" morality. I just pointed out alot of people have the same morality as me. I didn't say anything about me, me friends, family and country being special. Read what I'm writing. I'm not saying anything about people not wanting peace or being moraly corrupted. I'm saying that I believe that violence isn't the way to go. Please stay to what I say and don't make this a shit throwing thread. You are accusing me of alot I don't do at all?? NOTE: It's all my opinions. Just like you post you opinions. But I don't accuse all sorts of stuff.
I believe that peace can't be built on violence. "The net result of that video IS peace. The rioting is over." That isn't peace. How many people you think are really really pissed of because of that, and will continue to bomb and riot? You would have to kill everyone to make violence a way to make a lasting peace.
Just some of the things that have been said in this thread:
"criminals SHOULD be beaten, SHOULD be executed, and SHOULD be taught harshly what is right, and what is wrong."
"and about the point of spanking kids, for christ sake SPANK THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THEM!"
It's illegal to beat children. It's illegal to use unnecessary violence. Why you keep supporting it? 2 more soldier where arrested for this movie today. All over the world you have examples where soldier can keep people under control without beating them. Those kids get threatening? Shoot some warning shots. I'm sure they all would run and don't attempt a riot again for a long time. Violence and hate breed more violence and hate. Beating those teenagers is not solution.
Our definitions of cruel treatment seem to be very different. A single teenager being beaten with sticks by 3 armed soldiers is in my opinion humiliation and degradation. It's also cruel thretment.
About all of the soldiers on that movie are armed. They have their guns on the back and in their hands. You clearly see that. I was wrong with the rifle part (My bad). But they are still being beaten with sticks by many armed soldiers.
I believe this is unnecessary violence, illegal and disgusting behavior. And I'm glad that atleast the legal system agrees with me.
This time please read what I posted properly (Try to understand the meaning of what I write, not just looking at the words), and respond to that. And stop accusing me for all sorts of untrue shit.
And seabass2003. Soldiers have laws to follow. Just like all us others. There are no excuses to break the laws.
I know soldiers have laws to follow its called LOAC(Law of Armed Conflict) but until you expierience a hostile situation where lives are at stake you will never know how you will react. Maybe they weren't armed maybe they were but all we ever get is a basic snapshot of the situation we never get the begining, middle, and end. Also If you can do better than these soldiers then sign on the dotted line until then you have no valid point of view.
When Norway becomes a Superpower(yeah right) and needs to deploy troops all over the world to maintain some stability then maybe you will know what these men go through.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
The answer is a compromise. We need to be more strict towards criminals, so they don't commit any more crimes. But we also shouldn't take it too far, as it was in the video. What you want is to be strict enough so they won't do it again, and not go past that point. The video was way past that point, other actions could have been taken to make sure the kind would think twice before doing that again.
the pictures you posted CANNOT be used to judge the situation. i'm guessing you havnt watched the video which is of course why you have such a strange point of view. the kids dont look armed because the arms they carry are stones which fit inside they're fists. hense why you cant see any weaponry.
people like YOU judge this situation asiff its the worst thing since the hollocaust. fucking hell, worse things happen EVERY NIGHT in central london! a female police officer was shot in the stomach just last night for christ sakes!!!!!! and your whinging about our soldiers beating THE ENEMY with sticks because they were rioting?! (i call them the enemy not because they are iraqies, but because they are trying to interrupt our attempts to keep the peace, and therefore can be seen as an enemy).
you really need to put things into perspective, the only reason people like you judge this so harshly is PURELY because of media attention, if the media say its disgusting behaviour that should be queried, then so will you.
what winds me up is the fact that lefties accross the world actually have the nerve to call what our guys are doing 'disgusting' when they are putting they're lives at risk for another country, especially when what they are calling 'disgusting' is actually perfectly acceptable military behaviour in a confrontational situation!
another hillarious thing is how when someone actually films something like this, its asiff its all new! its never happened before in the history of the military! omg how can troops behave this way?! how the hell do you think soldiers acted in vietnam?! in WW2?! we've all heard some seriously sick stories from both of the forementioned wars, so what makes this any different?!
what do you think happens in interrogation rooms to enemy soldiers? we dont treat them humanely then for god sakes! the only reason we're not questioning it is because no ones filmed it yet and thrown it out to the left-wing public to whinge about (thank god).
I posted those pictures to prove that the soldiers where armed. Since I was accused for wrongly saying that they where. That was the purpose of the pictures. No other!
I'm saying that all violence is bad! Read my posts. It's disgusting that someone is beaten in London, it's disgusting that someone is raped in Oslo. But that doesn't make it less disgusting that soldier beat up children. All humans have equal value!
Soldiers are forced by law to threat people humanly! There are no excuses for not doing it. No mather how many times it has been done before, or will be done in the future. Nothing justifies illegale behavior! Not even if you fight for your country, not if you fight for peace. Nothing. The laws we and our ancestors have made are there for a purpose, and there are no excuses for breaking them.
Is it just me, or are the british soldiers equipped with L85A1 rifles? That's neat... oh well
All violence is bad. And I certainly don't endorse or think what the british soldiers did was right. But sometimes, fighting fire with fire is the only solution. If you want peace prepare for war. Some people will continue to keep making violence till they've actually experienced what kind of trouble they are causing.
Anyways, I've watched the videos, and they aren't being beated up that bad. It's no way near full strength, and they aren't punched in their faces.
Also, it's really easy to point fingers. You don't really know the background story, the stress, the rage and violence those soldiers were put up with.
Man, I am horrible when posting on these forums, but, worth a shot. Ok, well, as for the whole beating "the enemy."
1( If you beat them, do you introduce them to a democracy or do you just continue what they know? Chances are they have been beaten many times before and I believe that is why they "act like animals" as someone had said. We must be fair. Do we beat someone who kills another person? No. Punishment shouldn't be like that. I know I respond much better to sane punishment because if someone hits me...how would that change me? Other than making me angrier and more determined to get them back.
2( Iraq has been a little crazy for a while now. While I support troops in doing whatever is needed, this is not. Restrain them and then give them a punishment without violence. That is the fair thing to do, well, according to the government WE want the Iraqi's to adopt.
Yeah...well, that is my 2 cents. I know it doesn't mean much and some people are too stubborn to check out both sides, but, whatever. All I want to get across is that violence that is punished with more violence...only leads to, guess what! , more and more violence and anger.
wouldn't you be pissed off if osama and his army came to your town and started arresting all your friends and what not... saying fighting fire with fire is one thing, but generally speaking the spark would've not been there in the first place if US and British soldiers didnt show up there to begin with.
EDIT:
about the guy talking of weaponry and what not.... they dont have anyother weapons besides stones and rocks.... dont u think they would've used thats instead if they had em? i mean its kinda obvious that they deal more damage..... but alas they are simply outgunned what are you going to do against a bunch of trained army speacialists wearing full body armor? rocks and stones is all they got left.
well i didnt really read past page 5 of the posting but heres my opinion on the matter...
first of all they didnt "beat people to a bloodly pulp" the worst thing i saw was the kid getting kicked in the nuts it looked like they were just trying to teach them a lesson NOT to throw rocks at armed troops.
about the whole "beating your kids" topic its really just a matter of opinion and saying that "everyone who gets beat is a serial killer or abusive husband" and "everyone who doesnt get beat is a pansy and is scared of confrontation" is extremely dumb and i cant believe people would even think like this but anyway...
ill admit i was never BEAT as a kid but they did hit me when i did something pretty bad and i thank my parents for teaching me right and wrong and i never feel the urge to beat the daylights out of someone because i was hit and im also not scared of physical confrontation especially since i live near san bernardino where confrontation is like an everyday thing i also have 2 nephews and a neice (i have to watch them all the time) and i dont "beat" them the most i ever do is smack their hand if they try to touch something their not supposed to.... i find that yelling at them and not letting them have fun keeps them from doing wrong =/
Originally posted by kagda about the guy talking of weaponry and what not.... they dont have anyother weapons besides stones and rocks.... dont u think they would've used thats instead if they had em? i mean its kinda obvious that they deal more damage..... but alas they are simply outgunned what are you going to do against a bunch of trained army speacialists wearing full body armor? rocks and stones is all they got left.
Just a little FYI: 7.62 rounds penitrate body armor and some armed APCs (even Strykers)
And here is something for you "Children" Whiners.
<- In training
Don't you think for a second some of these countries wouldn't use them in combat, they will and they do.
I didn't say anything about me and my country being special. You said I was trying to be above everyone else with some kind of "uber" morality. I just pointed out alot of people have the same morality as me. I didn't say anything about me, me friends, family and country being special. Read what I'm writing. I'm not saying anything about people not wanting peace or being moraly corrupted. I'm saying that I believe that violence isn't the way to go. Please stay to what I say and don't make this a shit throwing thread. You are accusing me of alot I don't do at all?? NOTE: It's all my opinions. Just like you post you opinions. But I don't accuse all sorts of stuff.
You implied that I and other posters in this thread do not share that morality. And that we were in your opinion the sickest thing you had ever heard of. We all want peace. Where we differ is our suggested methods. I think yours are ignorant, unworkable and extremely dangerous, and that your description of the other posters here says a lot more about you than you might like.
I believe that peace can't be built on violence. "The net result of that video IS peace. The rioting is over." That isn't peace.
How many people you think are really really pissed of because of that, and will continue to bomb and riot?
It seems to me that those specific people have after several days of rioting, suddenly stopped. I'll take my victories where I can get them.
You would have to kill everyone to make violence a way to make a lasting peace.
Just like those soldiers just killed all those children I suppose.
Just some of the things that have been said in this thread:
"criminals SHOULD be beaten, SHOULD be executed, and SHOULD be taught harshly what is right, and what is wrong."
"and about the point of spanking kids, for christ sake SPANK THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THEM!"
And which one of these statements did you interpret to mean "it's ok to mutilate and torture children".
It's illegal to beat children. It's illegal to use unnecessary violence. Why you keep supporting it? 2 more soldier where arrested for this movie today. All over the world you have examples where soldier can keep people under control without beating them. Those kids get threatening? Shoot some warning shots. I'm sure they all would run and don't attempt a riot again for a long time. Violence and hate breed more violence and hate. Beating those teenagers is not solution. It's not illegal to beat children in my country and it's not illegal to beat them in yours. There is a difference between beating someone and causing them actual physical harm which you seem unable to distinguish between. Warning shots aren't enough. Those same kids have been returning to throw stones daily. Warning shots didn't work. The job of that camera man is to take videos of the riots so that the ring leaders can be identified. At this point the ring leaders have been identified, and a snatch squad has been dispatched to arrest them. It is the persistent repeat offenders that you see captured in the compound. FURTHER MORE, THERE ARE NO CHILDREN BEING BEATEN IN THIS VIDEO. Please save your hysteria. Our definitions of cruel treatment seem to be very different. A single teenager being beaten with sticks by 3 armed soldiers is in my opinion humiliation and degradation. It's also cruel thretment. But crucially, for the Geneva convention, it's not torture. Inflicting pain (dictionary definition of cruelty) on your enemy is not against the Geneva convention. The Genva convention is a code of WAR. You are not only allowed to be cruel to them, you are allowed to kill them completely. Perhaps you might also consult the dictionary for the meaning of the words humiliation and degradation. About all of the soldiers on that movie are armed. They have their guns on the back and in their hands. You clearly see that. I was wrong with the rifle part (My bad). But they are still being beaten with sticks by many armed soldiers. Those Soldiers are clearly outnumbered. And? A stick? OMG did the nasty man have a stick? That's positively evil and totally disproportionate force to use against a crowd of people trying to stone you to death. If they were shooting those rioters or crushing them with tanks like in Tianemen Square, you would have point . Some images from the movie to point that out: http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/sbt1.jpg http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/snt2.jpg http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/snt3.jpg And the kids/teenagers don't exactly look armed to me: http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/snt4.jpg The guy in the very centre is throwing a rock. The guy in the very bottom left is throwing a rock. There are no kids in this picture. Armed or otherwise. I believe this is unnecessary violence, illegal and disgusting behavior. And I'm glad that atleast the legal system agrees with me. The legal system does not agree with you. The legal system has made no judgement at all. This time please read what I posted properly (Try to understand the meaning of what I write, not just looking at the words), and respond to that. And stop accusing me for all sorts of untrue shit. I assume by read properly you mean "please agree with everything I say regardless of it's relavence or credibility". And seabass2003. Soldiers have laws to follow. Just like all us others. There are no excuses to break the laws. The don't have to follow the same laws as "all us others". A very simple, very obvious example is that they are allowed to shoot people. And bomb their houses.
Originally posted by kagda wouldn't you be pissed off if osama and his army came to your town and started arresting all your friends and what not... saying fighting fire with fire is one thing, but generally speaking the spark would've not been there in the first place if US and British soldiers didnt show up there to begin with. Which doesn't imply in anyway that the troops behaviour wasn't proportional to the situation they were in. It is not right to punish those troops for the political decisions of their governemts. Arrest Blair and Bush by all means. EDIT: about the guy talking of weaponry and what not.... they dont have anyother weapons besides stones and rocks.... dont u think they would've used thats instead if they had em? i mean its kinda obvious that they deal more damage..... but alas they are simply outgunned what are you going to do against a bunch of trained army speacialists wearing full body armor? rocks and stones is all they got left. Rocks and stones are still dangerous. While I sympathise with the plight of a (some might say unjustly) conquered people you are surely not suggesting that those troops should just stand there and accept the stoning as their just reward? Wearing a uniform does not turn you into Arnie or Bruce Willis. Being an army specialist does not mean you are unable to be hurt or killed. It just means you are willing to be. I think it is imperative that an anti Iraq war agenda should not be the key to the judgement of these troops. Are they doing their job well? and more importantly, do we have anyone willing or availbale who can do it better? If the answer is no, then it is only right to back their professionalism. They might not be perfect but they are the best we have available to do this extremely difficult job.
Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by kagda about the guy talking of weaponry and what not.... they dont have anyother weapons besides stones and rocks.... dont u think they would've used thats instead if they had em? i mean its kinda obvious that they deal more damage..... but alas they are simply outgunned what are you going to do against a bunch of trained army speacialists wearing full body armor? rocks and stones is all they got left.
Just a little FYI: 7.62 rounds penitrate body armor and some armed APCs (even Strykers)
And here is something for you "Children" Whiners.
*A load of pictures* *A load of pictures* *A load of pictures*
Don't you think for a second some of these countries wouldn't use them in combat, they will and they do.
Welcome to the real world.
Exactly. You never know if they pull up a 45. ACP. Even though they have body armour they can hit the face, and even hitting them several times in the torso will severly damage if not kill them.
As we see on the picture little innocent children could might as well be carrying 7.62 rifles(ak47), or .223 FMJ carbines(ak-spetnaz). Hell even some of them have 5.56 rifles(m16) If they are using FMJ bullets, the body armour won't help a lot.
What I'm saying here, that a crowd of unarmed angry people, can quickly turn into a crowd of deadly armed people.
You didn't read grasp what I was saying in my posts did you baff? You posts seem to reply to posts that I don't even recognize.
"I assume by read properly you mean "please agree with everything I say regardless of it's relavence or credibility"." I did not write anything that would suggest that I mean that. It's like you reply to the words and not the meaning behind them. Example:
"And seabass2003. Soldiers have laws to follow. Just like all us others. There are no excuses to break the laws."
Where in that sentence do I say that soldier have to SAME laws to follow? Soldiers have to follow THEIR laws, just like we have to follow OUR laws. <- That is what I'm saying in that sentence.
Let's make a test. This is what I mean in a nutshell:
Violence does no good. Violence breeds violence and hate. A lasting peace can only be built with peace. By just beating anyone who opposes us we will never achieve peace. We might keep them in bay for a couple of months, but the violence will have created fear and hate that will emerge again. We can't build a peaceful world on the foundation of fear and hate.
Do you manage to reply to that without accusing me of all kinds of shit? If not the moderators should lock this thread already.
That video isn't used to indetifie any ring leaders. That is a "brag" video. Just like the one of the security guards killing civilians on the highway in Bagdad, or the Americans torturing the prisoners. The video was recorded in 2004 and brought home to the UK where they showed it to their fellow soldiers. After that it was leaked by someone who didn't like what he saw. Would they do that (Bring it home and show it) if it was meant to identifie ring leaders? And how the guy who records speaks doesn't actually suggest that he is doing a "job" by recording it. And wouldn't it be normal with some kind of radio contact between the "ground" troops and the guy recording if he was picking out ring leaders? And since when do you use a video to identifie people, when it's all happening live?
The legal system is arresting people over this video. I don't think they make arrests with no reason.
Comments
Exactly. How will we ever get peace in the middle east if all the people see is violence from our side. Hate breeds hate. Violence breeds violence and so on. What makes "us" better if we act like this? If it has to be like this why not just invite Saddam and Bin Laden to a tea party, and start a alliance of united violence?
Those soldier broke every law when it comes about prisoner of war threatment. They should have arrested the boys and delivered them to the MP or whoever handles interrogation in the british army. This is how prisoners how war are supposed to be threated: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
As far as I know justice will happen. 1 person is arrested so far.
It's not understandable that those soldier act like that. No matter how angry they are. Just as a person who pukes each time he sees blood can't become a surgent, or a blind person can't become a pilot, a person who can't handle stress or other situation that can arise in war shouldn't be a soldier. You can't put that much responsibility in the hands of one who can't handle it. On the video it doesn't look like the teenagers are much older than 16 years. They throw rocks. What on earth has a soldier in full kevlar and a fully loaded m16, to fear of a 16 year old throwing stones. Not as much to react like they did.
I have seen many twisted ideas and opinions on the internet. But this has to be the far worst case ever. If you think that violence and torture is the way to run this world you are seriously twisted. And I really hope you never get a political position whatsoever.
Peace in the Middle East?
There has never been peace in the Middle east.
If you were expecting to see peace in the Middle East then you have clearly forgotten the history of the area. The first written histories of the human race come from the Middle East. They describe a long series of wars.
And a person who cannot understand violence will never make a good soldier, nor recognise what is required in one. Soldiers must be aggressive. Agression isn't switched on for 20 seconds and then instantly switched off 20 seconds later. Adrenalin takes time to wear off. The prequisites you give for being a soldier Exclude not only the entire human race but also the animal kingdom
What did Goliath have to fear from David?
A rock to the head at the very least. Although with these soldiers perhaps also a hand grenade or even a sniper bullet wouldn't be too unimaginative given the location. Or a suicide bomb, a car bomb a lorry bomb, a mortar attack an RPG. In this particular circumstance they had to fear an increasing daily level of stoning attacks by day and sniper attacks by night. It was time for them to put a stop to it. There is only so long you can "not fight back" before you must surrender. The British Army didn't surrender. Sorry to have disappointed you.
A 16 year old is perfectly capable of killing. He is by no means a defensless child. Where I live he is defined as an adult.
Nice link to the Geneva Convention. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm What a shame you didn't actually take the time to read it yourself.
Would you like to elaborate and explain exactly which sentence of it was contravened in that video? I saw no "Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;" I saw no taking of hostages, or denial of medical services? No torture. What are you talking about?
I've seen Russians cutting off the heads of live Chechens with a knife, I've seen women penetrated by horses. I've seen the pictures of ABu Gharaib, The police shooting unarmed protesters in the back as they run away during the rioting in Geneva and the Rioting in L.A. where the beatings go on and in. I've seen concentration camps and mass graves. If this video is the worst case of "twisted" material you have seen on the internet it is no wonder you have such an oversensetive opinion.
There isn't any torture or threat to life in this video at all. (At least not from the soldiers). If you think that was a video of violence and torture you have lead a very very sheltered life.
You seem desperate to elevate yourself above the rest of us with your high morality. How easy it must be for you to assume all who disagree with you are willing torturers hell bent on spreading evil and mutilating children worldwide. And while I never have any intention of getting into a position politically above you, or in fact politics of any type, you however seem just the type.
To the Ghandi fella, Ghandi was a protester not a soldier.
If the rioters had behaved like Ghandi, the British Army would treat them like they did Ghandi. No one would get whacked and the Army would leave the country.
I almost agree with you.
I had to think twice about it.I'm usually guilty of reviling American troops.
Do you remeber the pictures where the U.S. soldier shot the wounded guy dead?
And then the media strung him up. That was wrong. He didn't deserve that. In a combat situation, rightly or wrongly that is his decision to make and his alone. It's a war not every single decision made is going to be a good one, and when it is wrong people may get hurt. You can't take this out of the equation. There is no quick save and reload. When you send your troops into those situations you must be willing to back their plays, even when they get it wrong.
I don't feel these pictures show any particular abuse. The rioters are getting a kicking. Discipline isn't exemplary, but these are soldiers in a warzone, not a domestic police force.
I have to say I find this video a great display of professional soldiering.
"I thought this thread was pretty tame considering the topic."
Considering how tame the "abuse" was and don't see this one as having much longterm media value.
Yes the middle east has been a problem for a long long time. But that doesn't mean the world should just jump in there and continue the beating. I believe that we should work for peace not the opposite.
I don't think I have a high morality. The morality I show here is something my parents, the people I know and the country I live in share. And I have no need/intentions to rise above the rest. These are my beliefs, my morality and political opinions.
I'm not assuming that quote: assume all who disagree with you are willing torturers hell bent on spreading evil and mutilating children worldwide" but the Op and you, to a certain amount, are posting posts that say this is ok to do. Since it's the best way to "educate" people.
I wasn't refering the video as the most twisted thing I have ever seen (Though I haven't watched as much illegal/disgusting material as you have). I was refering to the opinions of the OP.
To me the video clearly falls under:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
For me a unarmed boy who get's a rifle showed in his face, time after time goes under those.
And for the record Ghandi and his followers where in many cases threated far worse than this.
Amritsar massacre
Everybody beleives we should work for peace. (Why do you think this makes you, your parents and everyone who lives in your country special? Perhaps it's time for you to go travelling and realise that people all over the world share the same moralities).
The net result of that video IS peace. The rioting is over.
"I'm not assuming that quote: assume all who disagree with you are willing torturers hell bent on spreading evil and mutilating children worldwide" but the Op and you, to a certain amount, are posting posts that say this is ok to do. Since it's the best way to "educate" people.
THERE ARE NO POSTS IN THIS THREAD SAYING TORTURING OR MUTILATING CHILDREN IS OK AND A GOOD WAY TO EDUCATE PEOPLE.
I wasn't refering the video as the most twisted thing I have ever seen (Though I haven't watched as much illegal/disgusting material as you have). I was refering to the opinions of the OP. "
It seems to me that the video material doesn't actually give you much fuel for discontent. Your self-righteous anger demands fuel, and if this video won't sustain it, and the opinions of the posters in this thread won't feed it, then dammit, you'd better make some stuff up to get all upset about yourself.
Cruel treatment. (The infliction of pain)
Cruel treatment is not against the Geneva convention. Cruel treatment and torture is.
THERE IS NO TORTURE IN THAT VIDEO.
Humiliation and degradation.
Am I missing something are they all being stripped naked and forced to sing and dance. Is their holy book being wanked over and thrown into the toilet in front of them?
"For me a unarmed boy who get's a rifle showed in his face, time after time goes under those. "
THERE IS NO UNARMED BOY GETTING A RIFLE SHOWED IN HIS FACE, TIME AFTER TIME IN THAT VIDEO
The men in that video are not so much unarmed, as disarmed. They are captured and disarmed by a snatch squad of unarmed soldiers. (Who are of similar age).
Once again, you have taken sides. You are seeking to portray an event as happening in a way that it clearly has not.
Thanks for the heads up on Ghandi. I have a lot to learn on the history of India. I'm a willing student.
well said baff, i was going to reply but you basically said everything i wanted to. especially the part about there being no 'unarmed boys' in that video, what a rediculous comment to make.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
The problem is that they keep on doing it... England military has killed over 150 million cilivans in the 1900's and if you want to look it up just do searches of african history under british rule, India -Pakastian history, Ireland,and middle eastern asian History including English rule of Iraq in the 1940's....Plus look at the direct miltary rule of Northern Ireland and Northern England and there support of international terroist including the orange order (KKK its american branch) which is the larget terroist organization in the world....
One reason that alot of states in the Northern US have restrictied Trade status with england...
[quote]Originally posted by Hohbein
[b]
Originally posted by angerr
[quote]Originally posted by SnaKey
Someone lock this thread already. It's bullshit.
[/b][/quote]
agreed, alot of people are freaking out and insulting other people because they don't agree with them. and that is what is BS..... please lock this thread.
people freaking out and insulting each other is what a forum is about.. unfortunatly this thread will be locked, but people cant deny its been entertaining. [/b][/quote]
wrong...this is a discussion board, it is not what this forum or any other is about. if you are unable to discuss a topic without insulting people because they do not agree with you, you probably shouldn't be here.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I didn't say anything about me and my country being special. You said I was trying to be above everyone else with some kind of "uber" morality. I just pointed out alot of people have the same morality as me. I didn't say anything about me, me friends, family and country being special. Read what I'm writing. I'm not saying anything about people not wanting peace or being moraly corrupted. I'm saying that I believe that violence isn't the way to go. Please stay to what I say and don't make this a shit throwing thread. You are accusing me of alot I don't do at all?? NOTE: It's all my opinions. Just like you post you opinions. But I don't accuse all sorts of stuff.
I believe that peace can't be built on violence. "The net result of that video IS peace. The rioting is over." That isn't peace. How many people you think are really really pissed of because of that, and will continue to bomb and riot? You would have to kill everyone to make violence a way to make a lasting peace.
Just some of the things that have been said in this thread:
"criminals SHOULD be beaten, SHOULD be executed, and SHOULD be taught harshly what is right, and what is wrong."
"and about the point of spanking kids, for christ sake SPANK THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THEM!"
It's illegal to beat children. It's illegal to use unnecessary violence. Why you keep supporting it? 2 more soldier where arrested for this movie today. All over the world you have examples where soldier can keep people under control without beating them. Those kids get threatening? Shoot some warning shots. I'm sure they all would run and don't attempt a riot again for a long time. Violence and hate breed more violence and hate. Beating those teenagers is not solution.
Our definitions of cruel treatment seem to be very different. A single teenager being beaten with sticks by 3 armed soldiers is in my opinion humiliation and degradation. It's also cruel thretment.
About all of the soldiers on that movie are armed. They have their guns on the back and in their hands. You clearly see that. I was wrong with the rifle part (My bad). But they are still being beaten with sticks by many armed soldiers.
Some images from the movie to point that out:
http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/sbt1.jpg
http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/snt2.jpg
http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/snt3.jpg
And the kids/teenagers don't exactly look armed to me:
http://www.image-share.net/image/1075/snt4.jpg
I believe this is unnecessary violence, illegal and disgusting behavior. And I'm glad that atleast the legal system agrees with me.
This time please read what I posted properly (Try to understand the meaning of what I write, not just looking at the words), and respond to that. And stop accusing me for all sorts of untrue shit.
And seabass2003. Soldiers have laws to follow. Just like all us others. There are no excuses to break the laws.
I know soldiers have laws to follow its called LOAC(Law of Armed Conflict) but until you expierience a hostile situation where lives are at stake you will never know how you will react. Maybe they weren't armed maybe they were but all we ever get is a basic snapshot of the situation we never get the begining, middle, and end. Also If you can do better than these soldiers then sign on the dotted line until then you have no valid point of view.
When Norway becomes a Superpower(yeah right) and needs to deploy troops all over the world to maintain some stability then maybe you will know what these men go through.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
The answer is a compromise. We need to be more strict towards criminals, so they don't commit any more crimes. But we also shouldn't take it too far, as it was in the video. What you want is to be strict enough so they won't do it again, and not go past that point. The video was way past that point, other actions could have been taken to make sure the kind would think twice before doing that again.
pheonixs - what the hell are you talking about?
the pictures you posted CANNOT be used to judge the situation. i'm guessing you havnt watched the video which is of course why you have such a strange point of view. the kids dont look armed because the arms they carry are stones which fit inside they're fists. hense why you cant see any weaponry.
people like YOU judge this situation asiff its the worst thing since the hollocaust. fucking hell, worse things happen EVERY NIGHT in central london! a female police officer was shot in the stomach just last night for christ sakes!!!!!! and your whinging about our soldiers beating THE ENEMY with sticks because they were rioting?! (i call them the enemy not because they are iraqies, but because they are trying to interrupt our attempts to keep the peace, and therefore can be seen as an enemy).
you really need to put things into perspective, the only reason people like you judge this so harshly is PURELY because of media attention, if the media say its disgusting behaviour that should be queried, then so will you.
what winds me up is the fact that lefties accross the world actually have the nerve to call what our guys are doing 'disgusting' when they are putting they're lives at risk for another country, especially when what they are calling 'disgusting' is actually perfectly acceptable military behaviour in a confrontational situation!
another hillarious thing is how when someone actually films something like this, its asiff its all new! its never happened before in the history of the military! omg how can troops behave this way?! how the hell do you think soldiers acted in vietnam?! in WW2?! we've all heard some seriously sick stories from both of the forementioned wars, so what makes this any different?!
what do you think happens in interrogation rooms to enemy soldiers? we dont treat them humanely then for god sakes! the only reason we're not questioning it is because no ones filmed it yet and thrown it out to the left-wing public to whinge about (thank god).
I posted those pictures to prove that the soldiers where armed. Since I was accused for wrongly saying that they where. That was the purpose of the pictures. No other!
I'm saying that all violence is bad! Read my posts. It's disgusting that someone is beaten in London, it's disgusting that someone is raped in Oslo. But that doesn't make it less disgusting that soldier beat up children. All humans have equal value!
Soldiers are forced by law to threat people humanly! There are no excuses for not doing it. No mather how many times it has been done before, or will be done in the future. Nothing justifies illegale behavior! Not even if you fight for your country, not if you fight for peace. Nothing. The laws we and our ancestors have made are there for a purpose, and there are no excuses for breaking them.
Can people ones read my posts properly? bah..
The kids beaten up came on TV.
Wtf they were like 18 and not kids!
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Don't click here...no2
Is it just me, or are the british soldiers equipped with L85A1 rifles? That's neat... oh well
All violence is bad. And I certainly don't endorse or think what the british soldiers did was right. But sometimes, fighting fire with fire is the only solution. If you want peace prepare for war. Some people will continue to keep making violence till they've actually experienced what kind of trouble they are causing.
Anyways, I've watched the videos, and they aren't being beated up that bad. It's no way near full strength, and they aren't punched in their faces.
Also, it's really easy to point fingers. You don't really know the background story, the stress, the rage and violence those soldiers were put up with.
Man, I am horrible when posting on these forums, but, worth a shot. Ok, well, as for the whole beating "the enemy."
1( If you beat them, do you introduce them to a democracy or do you just continue what they know? Chances are they have been beaten many times before and I believe that is why they "act like animals" as someone had said. We must be fair. Do we beat someone who kills another person? No. Punishment shouldn't be like that. I know I respond much better to sane punishment because if someone hits me...how would that change me? Other than making me angrier and more determined to get them back.
2( Iraq has been a little crazy for a while now. While I support troops in doing whatever is needed, this is not. Restrain them and then give them a punishment without violence. That is the fair thing to do, well, according to the government WE want the Iraqi's to adopt.
Yeah...well, that is my 2 cents. I know it doesn't mean much and some people are too stubborn to check out both sides, but, whatever. All I want to get across is that violence that is punished with more violence...only leads to, guess what! , more and more violence and anger.
wouldn't you be pissed off if osama and his army came to your town and started arresting all your friends and what not... saying fighting fire with fire is one thing, but generally speaking the spark would've not been there in the first place if US and British soldiers didnt show up there to begin with.
EDIT:
about the guy talking of weaponry and what not.... they dont have anyother weapons besides stones and rocks.... dont u think they would've used thats instead if they had em? i mean its kinda obvious that they deal more damage..... but alas they are simply outgunned what are you going to do against a bunch of trained army speacialists wearing full body armor? rocks and stones is all they got left.
Okkkkaaayyyyyyyyyyyy
well i didnt really read past page 5 of the posting but heres my opinion on the matter...
first of all they didnt "beat people to a bloodly pulp" the worst thing i saw was the kid getting kicked in the nuts it looked like they were just trying to teach them a lesson NOT to throw rocks at armed troops.
about the whole "beating your kids" topic its really just a matter of opinion and saying that "everyone who gets beat is a serial killer or abusive husband" and "everyone who doesnt get beat is a pansy and is scared of confrontation" is extremely dumb and i cant believe people would even think like this but anyway...
ill admit i was never BEAT as a kid but they did hit me when i did something pretty bad and i thank my parents for teaching me right and wrong and i never feel the urge to beat the daylights out of someone because i was hit and im also not scared of physical confrontation especially since i live near san bernardino where confrontation is like an everyday thing
i also have 2 nephews and a neice (i have to watch them all the time) and i dont "beat" them the most i ever do is smack their hand if they try to touch something their not supposed to.... i find that yelling at them and not letting them have fun keeps them from doing wrong =/
Just a little FYI:
7.62 rounds penitrate body armor and some armed APCs (even Strykers)
And here is something for you "Children" Whiners.
Don't you think for a second some of these countries wouldn't use them in combat, they will and they do.
Welcome to the real world.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
Just a little FYI:
7.62 rounds penitrate body armor and some armed APCs (even Strykers)
And here is something for you "Children" Whiners.
*A load of pictures*
*A load of pictures*
*A load of pictures*
Don't you think for a second some of these countries wouldn't use them in combat, they will and they do.
Welcome to the real world.
Exactly. You never know if they pull up a 45. ACP. Even though they have body armour they can hit the face, and even hitting them several times in the torso will severly damage if not kill them.
As we see on the picture little innocent children could might as well be carrying 7.62 rifles(ak47), or .223 FMJ carbines(ak-spetnaz). Hell even some of them have 5.56 rifles(m16)
If they are using FMJ bullets, the body armour won't help a lot.
What I'm saying here, that a crowd of unarmed angry people, can quickly turn into a crowd of deadly armed people.
You didn't read grasp what I was saying in my posts did you baff? You posts seem to reply to posts that I don't even recognize.
"I assume by read properly you mean "please agree with everything I say regardless of it's relavence or credibility"."
I did not write anything that would suggest that I mean that. It's like you reply to the words and not the meaning behind them.
Example:
"And seabass2003. Soldiers have laws to follow. Just like all us others. There are no excuses to break the laws."
Where in that sentence do I say that soldier have to SAME laws to follow? Soldiers have to follow THEIR laws, just like we have to follow OUR laws. <- That is what I'm saying in that sentence.
Let's make a test. This is what I mean in a nutshell:
Violence does no good. Violence breeds violence and hate. A lasting peace can only be built with peace. By just beating anyone who opposes us we will never achieve peace. We might keep them in bay for a couple of months, but the violence will have created fear and hate that will emerge again. We can't build a peaceful world on the foundation of fear and hate.
Do you manage to reply to that without accusing me of all kinds of shit? If not the moderators should lock this thread already.
That video isn't used to indetifie any ring leaders. That is a "brag" video. Just like the one of the security guards killing civilians on the highway in Bagdad, or the Americans torturing the prisoners. The video was recorded in 2004 and brought home to the UK where they showed it to their fellow soldiers. After that it was leaked by someone who didn't like what he saw. Would they do that (Bring it home and show it) if it was meant to identifie ring leaders? And how the guy who records speaks doesn't actually suggest that he is doing a "job" by recording it. And wouldn't it be normal with some kind of radio contact between the "ground" troops and the guy recording if he was picking out ring leaders? And since when do you use a video to identifie people, when it's all happening live?
The legal system is arresting people over this video. I don't think they make arrests with no reason.