The absolute number one reason permadeath will never become widespread: Ask yourself, after spending 4 months of mind-numbing hardship and work to build a character with all the best stuff, do you REALLY want to have some jerk mob come up and kill you, thereby losing everything you have? Eve online doesn't even have permadeath, you just lose a whole crapload of skills if you don't have a good enough clone. It might add great excitement to a game, but I don't want a game to become another lfie for me, that's why permadeath is usually left out.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Ask yourself, after spending 4 months of mind-numbing hardship and work to build a character with all the best stuff, do you REALLY want to have some jerk mob come up and kill you, thereby losing everything you have?
After 4 months of playing I should have enough of a grasp of how the game works to be able to....
1) Avoid getting into that situation
2) survive such a situation
3) flee from such a situation live to fight again
Going back the ZangbandTK example for a minute. Most of that game is random, yet everytime you died it was because YOU made a mistake. You didn't equip yourself correctly, you didn't have adequate supplies of certain types of potions, you paniced and did something stupid (like teleporting randomly into a more dangerous situation), etc. The same applies to a permadeath MMO.
Eve online doesn't even have permadeath, you just lose a whole crapload of skills if you don't have a good enough clone.
Eve is also the most cut throat and cruel MMO on the planet right now. Despite that reputation, it's population is GROWING. Don't underestimate the public in their appitite for challenge.
It might add great excitement to a game, but I don't want a game to become another lfie for me, that's why permadeath is usually left out.
I don't want the game to become my life either. I don't know why you think Permadeath alone will cause this. What's called for is a design that isn't a time sink. With a level-less, open ended game, you'll have bigger goals than just leveling up your character. You'll be asking how to customize your character in order to best achieve a particular goal. This doesn't need to be as time consuming as we currently make it. Permadeath will contribute nothing to the time sink and might even be a good excuse to get rid of it altogether!
Good Lord! I don't think I'd play ANY game that caused me "mind-numbing hardship." I also don't really "work" at a game... I mostly play at one! But I kind of, sort of, very nearly mostly know what you mean. As much as I don't want to, I do actually become somewhat attached to my character and I don't think I'd enjoy losing it. I don't think, however, any game would implement permadeath in a trivial manner. It would be very difficult, at best, to have a character die in an MMO, is my guess.
I'm sure people have a lot of different suggestions or scenarios where permadeath could be made acceptable to a large enough number of people to make it a viable business. On Discworld Mud people have seven lives and there are ways of acquiring more. No one really complains but then it''s a whole different sort of feeling, I think. Most MUDs are also free and the cost of sustaining one is rather minimal.
I know Mourning proposed a sort of permadeath but I don't think that game is really much of an option in the minds of most people anymore. I don't know which other games propose it and how they plan on implementing it, but I don't think it's a totally useless idea at all. There are enough people interested in this sort of game to warrant the subject coming up on a lot of game boards pretty frequently. If the cost of developing an MMORPG wasn't so prohibitive and the prospect so risky, I bet we'd probably have one by now.
I wish i had more time to respond, im at work hehe. Suffice it I think that permadeth is great as long as theres checks and balances. Defining what those balances are is tricky. I played a Non-Osi Ultima shard with perma-death. In that system you could be resurrected, but eventualy you died of old age. Your stats could then be passed on to a child. So on yada yada, been discussed in other games. System worked. So I say, figure out a good system and your set, id use permadeath.
Perma-Death!!! I have posted on this topic numerous times. I am VERY much in favor of SOME sort of Perma-Death system, as "traditional" mmorpgs have seriously become stale and boring. Knowing that you will eventually get to the top takes the meaning and pride from getting there.
Knowing that if I die in the game NOTHING really happens, is plain care-bear. While I understand why they have it, and why a lot of people like that, it is not for me.
I am not a PvP fan, for the reasons many of you have already mentioned, not the least of which is griefing. However there is nothing to stop EVERY mmorpg from implementing a server where there is a death counter (100, 10, whatever) and permadeath when the counter reaches zero. This would appease everyone, as it is not forced onto anyone. Even without PvP, the game would mean SOOOO much more this way to those on the Death Counter server. Fighting any MOB anywhere would be something to be wary of, exciting, scary......my God....I can't remember the last time I was actually Scared in a game. I miss that....I NEEED that.
Throwar
(too many mmorpgs to list....suffice it to say....lots)
My #1 reason for not playing a game with "permadeath"...
Because I'm not that good at games.
However, I enjoy playing them. I enjoy playing them probably more than most people who are good at them. I just don't have very good motor skills.
But I do have a very good imagination and totally get enthralled by some games. I love a game with a good story and setting. And I get into the concept of playing something I'm not or could never be in real life. I also enjoy a shared experience (such as in MMO's).
I have a feeling there a lot of people out there like me. There's more to a game than just plain skill and being top dog. If there wasn't then things like story, graphics/art, music, and socialization wouldn't be there. It would just be a dot flashing on the screen to prompt you when to press the mouse button and some results on a website showing who had the quickest resonse time.
Originally posted by Thethrax Traditionally people fear permadeath. Thats because traditionally people think that permadeath means if you die once, thats it, game over for that character. Well, thats just not true with a few upcoming MMORPGS who plan to implement permadeath as part of their leading features (namely Trials of Ascension). You will get appx. 100 'death credits', and each time you die you will lose 1. If you run out, you're permanently dead. How does this help a mmorpg? Read my top 10 reasons below. 10) Gamemakers can potentially make some profits by selling extra 'death credits' (not that I really like this point..but hey, investers need reasons too) 9) PVP would be extremely exciting 8) Guilds will have more meaning, player cooperation will be necessary, though soloers have benefits (utter secrecy). 7) Less cheating and bots due to the increased communication levels (see below) 6) Less griefing due to the consequences of being hated by many people 5) Increased communication levels in the game due to people having to work together to accomplish goals 4) More immersion and care due to the fear of dying 3) Dramatically increased overall challenge 2) Recycling characters for a longer lasting mmo And the number one reason every MMO should have permadeath: 1) It would keep the human gene pool stronger (Ill let you figure this one out)
Here is my top ten list
TOP 10 REASONS YOUR A IDIOT
Don't need top 10 list for that you have already proved it.There will NEVER be a perma death mmog reasons are simple and too many to list
1.Lag/ld/crashes would you wanna lose your char perma to a crash due to the game or a bug in game? most ppl would not not to mention this sort of prob would tie up a mmog csr team 24/7
2.Class balancing/hacks etc etc etcspeed hacks you name it someone would find out how and do it.
3.Ppl only play mmogs to build a char the thought of having it destroyed would be enough to keep 90% of ppl away period.
In closing no one is gonna wanna play a game like you have suggested and your not the first to suggest it let me repeat again NO MMOG will ever have perma death if they do they have already managed to make sure there game will flop it will never happen they are in the buisness to make money doing that means you cannot piss off the ppl paying for it.
"Don't need top 10 list for that you have already proved it.There will NEVER be a perma death mmog reasons are simple and too many to list"
This is simply not true, you'll see some form of it appear in nearly all games after players become more mature and experienced and realise, 'wow, all this time ive been immortal, we're all immortal, and this game really has no true fear or meaning to it.'
"1.Lag/ld/crashes would you wanna lose your char perma to a crash due to the game or a bug in game? most ppl would not not to mention this sort of prob would tie up a mmog csr team 24/7"
I absolutely agree with you. The issue here is that everyone will get some lag or crashes, its a given. So thats why you should not permadie when you die the first time.. It should take several deaths for permadeath. Also combat has to be totally revamped. Death has to occur much less, and combat in general has to last much longer.
"In closing no one is gonna wanna play a game like you have suggested and your not the first to suggest it let me repeat again NO MMOG will ever have perma death if they do they have already managed to make sure there game will flop it will never happen they are in the buisness to make money doing that means you cannot piss off the ppl paying for it."
Actually at least 3 very highly hyped MMO's are already implementing this as one of their main features. If permadeath is implemented correctly (most current mmorpgs are not permadeath compatable) it will work, and people will absolutely love it.
But act as you want and post as 'idiotic' as you want, reason #1 will eventually help keep the human gene pool strong...
1. First we need to get off the notion of Permadeath equals PVP, and in PVP the fear of being constantly killed can be easily fixed by given out steep penalties for either playing out of context. Example: A paladin or anyone of good standing should not go around killing randomly for fear of loose special skills associated with that title) Evil sided characters that go randomly killing will be hit some dire consiquences such as being attacked by NPC gaurds at everytown (due to their bad reputation). Being hunted by everyone as well as they will end up on most wanted list with ingame incentives (bountyhunters anyone). They will also not be able to trade with other Players except with those of similar standing which will be tough because would they even trust their own kind and it will limit the equipment and skills they can train or obtain. All these are more then adequate ways to curb such actions in a PVP server. And to top that off make most of the best gear in game player created. Lets see an assasin/blacksmith try to make gear or get gear from his own type of pkillers if none of them can make it into town to create the gear. And the only way that their standing will go down is with time as but in that time they will have not ingage in any pkilling activies except sanctions ones like duals or officially declared wars between clans and such.
2. Permadeath of course is the end of one thing but the beginning of another. Permadeath should be treated as a reward. There should always be a sort of lineage system setup with any Permadeath game. With attributes such as stat limit increase. Your first character only could skills up to 100 your next of kin can go to 125. Your equipment is handed down to the next of kin. Your skills experience should be about the same it can be seen as while you were gain experience your next of kin was training to take your place learning from you. Hence yours skills get rolled back some amount. Since your next of kin is new his stats should start off maybe at 2/3's your stat level when you died. all this will keep people from killing themselves earlier on as their is no advantage in doing so. And will insite you to reach the max possible level. the higher in skills your previous character reaches should be made directly proportunate to the amount your next of kin and go up. If your kill and resurrect your self early in the game there will be no advantage to picking up your next of kin as they will start wit that same stats and limitation.
3. Of course you should be able to play your original character to the max but with incentives to want to die. Everytime you die the level your stats and skills can be decrease by a certain amount. For instance if you cap a skill at 100 original and you have died like 100 times in game and been resurrected as much your skill cap is at 70 by the 100th resurrect. Since you know your current version of your character cant go beyond that but your next of kin can still reach 100 or beyond you will allow your character to move on and become part of the games history as your next of kin takes your place. your will start at 2/3 of your highest stat which is around 50 but you still have all your equipment and skills plus now you can go 125 if your more careful in your risk management.
4. What can also be done is that fact that your Next of kin doesn't even have to follow your original characters foot prints In a full skill and stat based MMO you switch up their focus and tweak them this time around to perform even better then before. Pick up skills you should have done in the first place and so. On You can then sell any former gear that doesn't really fit your new mold and equal value gear.
That is my vision of how permadeath should be treated in games of a sort.
Personally I feel permadeath is stupid and totally counter-productive to the MMO genre. You've put 300 hours into playing your favourite character, and then a lag hit causes your death and oh well too bad? Then you have to start all over again, and your friends are all high level while you have to repeat the same content you've already seen over and over again. Half the people you see in the newbie areas would likely be powerlevelers.
It just doesn't make sense to have a game where you can put so many hours of time and effort into your character and then lose it all because of a single mistake, a bug, or lag. Could you imagine playing a Final Fantasy game with no save points? Would people play counterstrike if you only had 1 life per server?
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by ChrisMattern And the single reason why no successful MMORPG will have permadeath: Nobody will be willing to throw away months of work on a character because they had a connection failure. And they will not play a game where that can happen. Chris Mattern
DragonRealms is a successful game and has a working perma death system.
You spend exp to earn 'shards' (I forget what they were called, been a couple years since I played). And each time you die you loose one, unless you are resurrected by another player, then you keep it. This encouraged interaction. It also discouraged griefers somewhat.
Originally posted by Ragosch Greyface, these problems are just there if you are just thinking of a conventional MMO here. #1 burnout on newbie content - in a game where those contents are provided by players instead of developers (i.e. a world simulation, not a theme park like MMO) this is no problem at all. #2 cummunity - if a player controls a family instead of a single character this is no longer a problem and real perma-death can be implemented also. Players will advance as a family, not as a single character, they do not concentrate their efforts too much onto a single character and therefore perma-death does no longer feel that scaring as in a conventional game - and still has the advantages of the perma-death concept (for example no maxed out character due to the fact that he might get killed by a group before he could reach this). #3 player churn - if a player controls a family instead of a single character this is also no problem because the family lives on - there is a loss but it is not the end of the game. Hope this gives an idea how this could be implemented addressing your 3 points. Ragosch
Some excellent points.... I can envision a bold new take on the virtual-world MMO where each player controls an entire clan or family, playing several characters concurrently. For example, while one of your characters travels the world exploring and fighting monsters, another might stay back at the castle making arrows, while a third mines ore. Advancement would come from upgrading one's stronghold, earning more family member slots and building up the family treasury. That is a game very much wish someone would make.
That said, what I believe the OP is advocating is hardcore-mode Diablo II on a MMO scale, which would be pointless, repetitive and frustrating in the extreme.
Originally posted by Blurr Personally I feel permadeath is stupid and totally counter-productive to the MMO genre. You've put 300 hours into playing your favourite character, and then a lag hit causes your death and oh well too bad? Then you have to start all over again, and your friends are all high level while you have to repeat the same content you've already seen over and over again. Half the people you see in the newbie areas would likely be powerlevelers. It just doesn't make sense to have a game where you can put so many hours of time and effort into your character and then lose it all because of a single mistake, a bug, or lag. Could you imagine playing a Final Fantasy game with no save points? Would people play counterstrike if you only had 1 life per server?
Originally posted by Blurr Personally I feel permadeath is stupid and totally counter-productive to the MMO genre. You've put 300 hours into playing your favourite character, and then a lag hit causes your death and oh well too bad? Then you have to start all over again, and your friends are all high level while you have to repeat the same content you've already seen over and over again. Half the people you see in the newbie areas would likely be powerlevelers. It just doesn't make sense to have a game where you can put so many hours of time and effort into your character and then lose it all because of a single mistake, a bug, or lag. Could you imagine playing a Final Fantasy game with no save points? Would people play counterstrike if you only had 1 life per server?
Well said!
Real life has also no save points and you can become a victim of system faults at any time. There is definately perma-death in this "game" and you are basically forced to grind also. Are you killed all the time by high-level players in real life?- No, simply because there is law and order - you just need to ensure that there is a kind of good law and order system which makes it harder for criminals. Real life proofs that this is the way to go here!
one day games will incorporate factors like need to eat, need to sleep, permanent existence in the game world ie no logging off and thus sleep.
players will get to chose to form factions and name them, not be forced into alliance or horde.
societies could chose to hate each other, could develop entirely different languages in different places.
players could become known as gods for heroic acts in battle, player names could become synonymous in with god or jesus, becoming a deity themselves.
games wouldnt have to ask players to role play... the game would be role playing.
legends would create themselves from passing travelers, mountains would become named by those who climbed them first, or those who died trying by word of mouth.
governments would be created and broken, democracies would be crushed by barbaric dictatorships, anarchy could rule after the assasination of a leader.
hatred could be created between different cultures because of race, children would inherit the genetic traits of parents and be controlled from birth to old age and death by actual characters.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
why not give players a sand box where they can make maps, they can name kings and generals, they can form nations and technology, build towns, gather for survival at watering holes to build farms and homes near resources..
a game where greifers have to decide whether or not to kill a traveler he meets while lost in the desert, or ask him for directions to the next town, or trade with him, or kill him, take his stuff and his maps and go on.
lets come up with ideas for new games rather than attempts to patch old ones that simply cant be fixed anymore.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by Ragosch Real life has also no save points and you can become a victim of system faults at any time. There is definately perma-death in this "game" and you are basically forced to grind also. Are you killed all the time by high-level players in real life?- No, simply because there is law and order - you just need to ensure that there is a kind of good law and order system which makes it harder for criminals. Real life proofs that this is the way to go here! Ragosch
This does not prove this is the way to go. Real life is boring compared to games. The dynamics in games are also different. People won't do stuff in games that they find boring. You need to ensure that all roles that need to be fulfilled by players are ones that some player will enjoy enough to actually perform.
Even if you get a good justice system working in the game, what about adventure? It seems like this would lead to an avoidance of risks, which is what you see in real life. Even with your large family idea, the adventuresome ones in the family will be dropping like flies at which time you have to ask what is the point. Even if you are highly skilled and careful, you will lose many of the adventuring family member due to lag, disconnects, and just plain bad luck.
I see two main reasons for permadeath: 1) make things more realistic such that death is meaningful and something to be avoided 2) ensure that your server is not only full of max level/skill/family/whatever players after 1 year from launch
There is no reason that both of these need to be sastified by the same game mechanic.
For goal (1), I think appropriate xp/skill/item penalties are sufficient. The right amount of pain needs careful consideration to make death something to be avoided, but not something to be avoided at all costs (like adventuring). For an xp penalty, it could be as light as 1xp or as heavy as 99% of your xp which would be almost permadeath so it certainly covers a broad enough range that an appropriate amount of pain is available there.
For goal (2), I'd rather see a system that cannot cause you to lose a character due to connection issues, other players, or other things outside of your control. I've died due to lag. I've died due to disconnects. It would be lame to lose a character to that. I've died to people I was trying to cooperate with being idiots. I'd hate to have to make people fill out an application just to go do something with me so that I can figure out if they'll get me killed.
I'd suggest a system based on character aging and a family line (with a family name). Each player would have a main head-of-household character and younger children of the main. The children would get some passive learning from the main character with a suitable implementation such that the child is a decent character from this passive learning, but nowhere as good as the main. At any time, the player could play either the main or the child and each would progress separately (but still with the passive training bonus to the child). As a character aged, it's stats would decrease until at some point it's simply more productive to start using the child as the main character and the old main character becomes a grandfatherly figure that is fine for doing stuff around town with. As the main character ages, more play time would slowly shift to the child character.
Death a part of life? Im sorry that some think that death is something that should be carelessly thought about. Those who stick their neck out in life are those who succeed. The Chronicle maybe the answer I was looking for. Read more about it. The Chronicle says paraphrasing in my own words....
A main can only kill a main - This promotes that you have as much chance of dying in PVP battles as any other main. Takes a little more precaution to what your doing, makes you think a little more before you act.
A main character can get items that maynot be aquired by alternate characters - Why would you not have a balance to death? Reap the rewards, or die trying.
A main character may hold rank - They may hold high ranks in guilds and towns, ect.
There are other perks to having a permadeath character, you can read it. Find out for yourself. For me, im all for it.
The reason why i play games is for the fun and enjoyment. (dont we all?) I get a rush when I play games, this would just raise the bar. Yes you bet the loss of a main would be catastrophic... I would rip out my keyboard out and bash it against my table it to little pieces if i lost my main, (which probably will happen), but after another keyboard, you bet i would go back in a do it all over again.
Okay as in regards to real life 1) Real life doesn't have lag or glitches/bugs or most of the other things that would cause a character to be killed in an MMO. 2) (More importantly) We're talking about Games, not real life. People play games to enjoy themselves at doing something other than real life for a while.
The problem with 'giving players a sandbox' is that from a Game perspective, it's an inherently flawed premise. Sure it can sometimes work, but really it's only good for studies and experiments.
You can't make a 'game' where people have to then make their own fun, or build the game themselves. That's bad design. A game is supposed to be fun, not work. That's one of the major ideas behind WoW (said in an early interview), and probably one of the reasons it's doing so well. A blizzard employee said that they didn't believe in giving players a sandbox. Instead, Blizzard designed WoW with the idea that they wanted to give the players a Theme Park. When you go to a theme park, the rides are all there and you just have to ride them, and it's fun. In a sandbox, you have to make your own fun, which is not something I would pay for.
Permadeath is an interesting idea from a developers point of view, but people get upset when their hard work and effort disappears forever. They especially don't want to have to play all the way through the game again just to get to where they were before. That's why God invented the save point. It may work in some very small game concepts, but in general, MMO's are about having fun and being able to experience the entirety of the content in the game. If you have to play the same content repeatedly, you get bored. I will bow down before anyone who shows me an MMO with permadeath and 1million+ subscribers.
Losing everything just isn't fun.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Ragosch Real life has also no save points and you can become a victim of system faults at any time. There is definately perma-death in this "game" and you are basically forced to grind also. Are you killed all the time by high-level players in real life?- No, simply because there is law and order - you just need to ensure that there is a kind of good law and order system which makes it harder for criminals. Real life proofs that this is the way to go here! Ragosch
This does not prove this is the way to go. Real life is boring compared to games. The dynamics in games are also different. People won't do stuff in games that they find boring. You need to ensure that all roles that need to be fulfilled by players are ones that some player will enjoy enough to actually perform.
Even if you get a good justice system working in the game, what about adventure? It seems like this would lead to an avoidance of risks, which is what you see in real life. Even with your large family idea, the adventuresome ones in the family will be dropping like flies at which time you have to ask what is the point. Even if you are highly skilled and careful, you will lose many of the adventuring family member due to lag, disconnects, and just plain bad luck.
Real life is boring compared to games?- Hm, I think you need a real life first, not a better game. Mine is quite exciting and will get more exciting with raising a dozen of kids and act on more areas of business in a successful way in future. Life is actually a lot of fun, if you are able to enjoy it.
Redhobbit, in our game there are ways to coordinate several characters along with their vehicles and adventuring stuff also. At all times adventurer did not went away alone because this would be just stupid. There is always a group of adventurers and a group of transport guys and animals needed for an expedition-like adventure. If you do it the old school MMO way, it is your fault, you need to be more realistic and much more clever in our game in order to survive.
Lag and disconnects are not such a problem in our system, because the AI system is designed to take over characters actions at any time. This is the normal case if a player decides to jump out of a role and jump into another of this character. The left character will be taken over by AI and and the controls of that character the player is just jumping in are tranferred to the player.
Fights are semi-automated in our game (see discusssion thread below to find out more about it) and the AI is performing combat sequences actually using the skills of those characters for actions and tactics chosen by players. If a character does not have a player "in character" currently the AI chooses the action to perform - the system is permanently checking the lag resp. connection status during a fight and takes over automatically if there is no response or ping rates are getting too high. Tricks like pulling the plug to avoid death are worthless in our game - your character would just stay in the game and switch to AI combat like he always does when you leave him.
Ragosch, while you have an interesting point of view on the subject, I do have a question or two.
In your system, you say that the AI takes over for the player at some point. How will you address people whose characters have died permanently, and they say it was because of lag or a disconnect? They say that the AI took actions that they did not choose, and therefore they should not have their character permanently killed because your server dropped them and your AI made the wrong choices. Do you have a rule that says deaths during AI controlled combat are final no matter the circumstances?
Permanent Death is a very big deal, possibly the biggest even in a character's life, because it ends it.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Comments
Permadeath would suck. <- See that thing on the end? It's called a period.
I can't see any reason to ever have permadeath in any MMO. Maybe a server on an MMO that offered permadeath, but what a desolate world that would be.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Gamewize wrote:
Ask yourself, after spending 4 months of mind-numbing hardship and work to build a character with all the best stuff, do you REALLY want to have some jerk mob come up and kill you, thereby losing everything you have?
After 4 months of playing I should have enough of a grasp of how the game works to be able to....
1) Avoid getting into that situation
2) survive such a situation
3) flee from such a situation live to fight again
Going back the ZangbandTK example for a minute. Most of that game is random, yet everytime you died it was because YOU made a mistake. You didn't equip yourself correctly, you didn't have adequate supplies of certain types of potions, you paniced and did something stupid (like teleporting randomly into a more dangerous situation), etc. The same applies to a permadeath MMO.
Eve online doesn't even have permadeath, you just lose a whole crapload of skills if you don't have a good enough clone.
Eve is also the most cut throat and cruel MMO on the planet right now. Despite that reputation, it's population is GROWING. Don't underestimate the public in their appitite for challenge.
It might add great excitement to a game, but I don't want a game to become another lfie for me, that's why permadeath is usually left out.
I don't want the game to become my life either. I don't know why you think Permadeath alone will cause this. What's called for is a design that isn't a time sink. With a level-less, open ended game, you'll have bigger goals than just leveling up your character. You'll be asking how to customize your character in order to best achieve a particular goal. This doesn't need to be as time consuming as we currently make it. Permadeath will contribute nothing to the time sink and might even be a good excuse to get rid of it altogether!
Good Lord! I don't think I'd play ANY game that caused me "mind-numbing hardship." I also don't really "work" at a game... I mostly play at one! But I kind of, sort of, very nearly mostly know what you mean.
As much as I don't want to, I do actually become somewhat attached to my character and I don't think I'd enjoy losing it. I don't think, however, any game would implement permadeath in a trivial manner. It would be very difficult, at best, to have a character die in an MMO, is my guess.
I'm sure people have a lot of different suggestions or scenarios where permadeath could be made acceptable to a large enough number of people to make it a viable business. On Discworld Mud people have seven lives and there are ways of acquiring more. No one really complains but then it''s a whole different sort of feeling, I think. Most MUDs are also free and the cost of sustaining one is rather minimal.
I know Mourning proposed a sort of permadeath but I don't think that game is really much of an option in the minds of most people anymore. I don't know which other games propose it and how they plan on implementing it, but I don't think it's a totally useless idea at all. There are enough people interested in this sort of game to warrant the subject coming up on a lot of game boards pretty frequently. If the cost of developing an MMORPG wasn't so prohibitive and the prospect so risky, I bet we'd probably have one by now.
I wish i had more time to respond, im at work hehe. Suffice it I think that permadeth is great as long as theres checks and balances. Defining what those balances are is tricky. I played a Non-Osi Ultima shard with perma-death. In that system you could be resurrected, but eventualy you died of old age. Your stats could then be passed on to a child. So on yada yada, been discussed in other games. System worked. So I say, figure out a good system and your set, id use permadeath.
Perma-Death!!! I have posted on this topic numerous times. I am VERY much in favor of SOME sort of Perma-Death system, as "traditional" mmorpgs have seriously become stale and boring. Knowing that you will eventually get to the top takes the meaning and pride from getting there.
Knowing that if I die in the game NOTHING really happens, is plain care-bear. While I understand why they have it, and why a lot of people like that, it is not for me.
I am not a PvP fan, for the reasons many of you have already mentioned, not the least of which is griefing. However there is nothing to stop EVERY mmorpg from implementing a server where there is a death counter (100, 10, whatever) and permadeath when the counter reaches zero. This would appease everyone, as it is not forced onto anyone. Even without PvP, the game would mean SOOOO much more this way to those on the Death Counter server. Fighting any MOB anywhere would be something to be wary of, exciting, scary......my God....I can't remember the last time I was actually Scared in a game. I miss that....I NEEED that.
Throwar
(too many mmorpgs to list....suffice it to say....lots)
My #1 reason for not playing a game with "permadeath"...
Because I'm not that good at games.
However, I enjoy playing them. I enjoy playing them probably more than most people who are good at them. I just don't have very good motor skills.
But I do have a very good imagination and totally get enthralled by some games. I love a game with a good story and setting. And I get into the concept of playing something I'm not or could never be in real life. I also enjoy a shared experience (such as in MMO's).
I have a feeling there a lot of people out there like me. There's more to a game than just plain skill and being top dog. If there wasn't then things like story, graphics/art, music, and socialization wouldn't be there. It would just be a dot flashing on the screen to prompt you when to press the mouse button and some results on a website showing who had the quickest resonse time.
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Here is my top ten list
TOP 10 REASONS YOUR A IDIOT
Don't need top 10 list for that you have already proved it.There will NEVER be a perma death mmog reasons are simple and too many to list
1.Lag/ld/crashes would you wanna lose your char perma to a crash due to the game or a bug in game? most ppl would not not to mention this sort of prob would tie up a mmog csr team 24/7
2.Class balancing/hacks etc etc etcspeed hacks you name it someone would find out how and do it.
3.Ppl only play mmogs to build a char the thought of having it destroyed would be enough to keep 90% of ppl away period.
In closing no one is gonna wanna play a game like you have suggested and your not the first to suggest it let me repeat again NO MMOG will ever have perma death if they do they have already managed to make sure there game will flop it will never happen they are in the buisness to make money doing that means you cannot piss off the ppl paying for it.
"Don't need top 10 list for that you have already proved it.There will NEVER be a perma death mmog reasons are simple and too many to list"
This is simply not true, you'll see some form of it appear in nearly all games after players become more mature and experienced and realise, 'wow, all this time ive been immortal, we're all immortal, and this game really has no true fear or meaning to it.'
"1.Lag/ld/crashes would you wanna lose your char perma to a crash due to the game or a bug in game? most ppl would not not to mention this sort of prob would tie up a mmog csr team 24/7"
I absolutely agree with you. The issue here is that everyone will get some lag or crashes, its a given. So thats why you should not permadie when you die the first time.. It should take several deaths for permadeath. Also combat has to be totally revamped. Death has to occur much less, and combat in general has to last much longer.
"In closing no one is gonna wanna play a game like you have suggested and your not the first to suggest it let me repeat again NO MMOG will ever have perma death if they do they have already managed to make sure there game will flop it will never happen they are in the buisness to make money doing that means you cannot piss off the ppl paying for it."
Actually at least 3 very highly hyped MMO's are already implementing this as one of their main features. If permadeath is implemented correctly (most current mmorpgs are not permadeath compatable) it will work, and people will absolutely love it.
But act as you want and post as 'idiotic' as you want, reason #1 will eventually help keep the human gene pool strong...
i have always liked the idea of permadeath.
1. First we need to get off the notion of Permadeath equals PVP, and in PVP the fear of being constantly killed can be easily fixed by given out steep penalties for either playing out of context. Example: A paladin or anyone of good standing should not go around killing randomly for fear of loose special skills associated with that title) Evil sided characters that go randomly killing will be hit some dire consiquences such as being attacked by NPC gaurds at everytown (due to their bad reputation). Being hunted by everyone as well as they will end up on most wanted list with ingame incentives (bountyhunters anyone). They will also not be able to trade with other Players except with those of similar standing which will be tough because would they even trust their own kind and it will limit the equipment and skills they can train or obtain. All these are more then adequate ways to curb such actions in a PVP server. And to top that off make most of the best gear in game player created. Lets see an assasin/blacksmith try to make gear or get gear from his own type of pkillers if none of them can make it into town to create the gear. And the only way that their standing will go down is with time as but in that time they will have not ingage in any pkilling activies except sanctions ones like duals or officially declared wars between clans and such.
2. Permadeath of course is the end of one thing but the beginning of another. Permadeath should be treated as a reward. There should always be a sort of lineage system setup with any Permadeath game. With attributes such as stat limit increase. Your first character only could skills up to 100 your next of kin can go to 125. Your equipment is handed down to the next of kin. Your skills experience should be about the same it can be seen as while you were gain experience your next of kin was training to take your place learning from you. Hence yours skills get rolled back some amount. Since your next of kin is new his stats should start off maybe at 2/3's your stat level when you died. all this will keep people from killing themselves earlier on as their is no advantage in doing so. And will insite you to reach the max possible level. the higher in skills your previous character reaches should be made directly proportunate to the amount your next of kin and go up. If your kill and resurrect your self early in the game there will be no advantage to picking up your next of kin as they will start wit that same stats and limitation.
3. Of course you should be able to play your original character to the max but with incentives to want to die. Everytime you die the level your stats and skills can be decrease by a certain amount. For instance if you cap a skill at 100 original and you have died like 100 times in game and been resurrected as much your skill cap is at 70 by the 100th resurrect. Since you know your current version of your character cant go beyond that but your next of kin can still reach 100 or beyond you will allow your character to move on and become part of the games history as your next of kin takes your place. your will start at 2/3 of your highest stat which is around 50 but you still have all your equipment and skills plus now you can go 125 if your more careful in your risk management.
4. What can also be done is that fact that your Next of kin doesn't even have to follow your original characters foot prints In a full skill and stat based MMO you switch up their focus and tweak them this time around to perform even better then before. Pick up skills you should have done in the first place and so. On You can then sell any former gear that doesn't really fit your new mold and equal value gear.
That is my vision of how permadeath should be treated in games of a sort.
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
Personally I feel permadeath is stupid and totally counter-productive to the MMO genre. You've put 300 hours into playing your favourite character, and then a lag hit causes your death and oh well too bad? Then you have to start all over again, and your friends are all high level while you have to repeat the same content you've already seen over and over again. Half the people you see in the newbie areas would likely be powerlevelers.
It just doesn't make sense to have a game where you can put so many hours of time and effort into your character and then lose it all because of a single mistake, a bug, or lag. Could you imagine playing a Final Fantasy game with no save points? Would people play counterstrike if you only had 1 life per server?
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
DragonRealms is a successful game and has a working perma death system.
You spend exp to earn 'shards' (I forget what they were called, been a couple years since I played). And each time you die you loose one, unless you are resurrected by another player, then you keep it. This encouraged interaction. It also discouraged griefers somewhat.
Some excellent points.... I can envision a bold new take on the virtual-world MMO where each player controls an entire clan or family, playing several characters concurrently. For example, while one of your characters travels the world exploring and fighting monsters, another might stay back at the castle making arrows, while a third mines ore. Advancement would come from upgrading one's stronghold, earning more family member slots and building up the family treasury. That is a game very much wish someone would make.
That said, what I believe the OP is advocating is hardcore-mode Diablo II on a MMO scale, which would be pointless, repetitive and frustrating in the extreme.
Real life has also no save points and you can become a victim of system faults at any time. There is definately perma-death in this "game" and you are basically forced to grind also. Are you killed all the time by high-level players in real life?- No, simply because there is law and order - you just need to ensure that there is a kind of good law and order system which makes it harder for criminals. Real life proofs that this is the way to go here!
Ragosch
the mmo format is just way old school.
one day games will incorporate factors like need to eat, need to sleep, permanent existence in the game world ie no logging off and thus sleep.
players will get to chose to form factions and name them, not be forced into alliance or horde.
societies could chose to hate each other, could develop entirely different languages in different places.
players could become known as gods for heroic acts in battle, player names could become synonymous in with god or jesus, becoming a deity themselves.
games wouldnt have to ask players to role play... the game would be role playing.
legends would create themselves from passing travelers, mountains would become named by those who climbed them first, or those who died trying by word of mouth.
governments would be created and broken, democracies would be crushed by barbaric dictatorships, anarchy could rule after the assasination of a leader.
hatred could be created between different cultures because of race, children would inherit the genetic traits of parents and be controlled from birth to old age and death by actual characters.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
why not give players a sand box where they can make maps, they can name kings and generals, they can form nations and technology, build towns, gather for survival at watering holes to build farms and homes near resources..
a game where greifers have to decide whether or not to kill a traveler he meets while lost in the desert, or ask him for directions to the next town, or trade with him, or kill him, take his stuff and his maps and go on.
lets come up with ideas for new games rather than attempts to patch old ones that simply cant be fixed anymore.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
This does not prove this is the way to go. Real life is boring compared to games. The dynamics in games are also different. People won't do stuff in games that they find boring. You need to ensure that all roles that need to be fulfilled by players are ones that some player will enjoy enough to actually perform.
Even if you get a good justice system working in the game, what about adventure? It seems like this would lead to an avoidance of risks, which is what you see in real life. Even with your large family idea, the adventuresome ones in the family will be dropping like flies at which time you have to ask what is the point. Even if you are highly skilled and careful, you will lose many of the adventuring family member due to lag, disconnects, and just plain bad luck.
Here is my take on the topic.
I see two main reasons for permadeath:
1) make things more realistic such that death is meaningful and something to be avoided
2) ensure that your server is not only full of max level/skill/family/whatever players after 1 year from launch
There is no reason that both of these need to be sastified by the same game mechanic.
For goal (1), I think appropriate xp/skill/item penalties are sufficient. The right amount of pain needs careful consideration to make death something to be avoided, but not something to be avoided at all costs (like adventuring). For an xp penalty, it could be as light as 1xp or as heavy as 99% of your xp which would be almost permadeath so it certainly covers a broad enough range that an appropriate amount of pain is available there.
For goal (2), I'd rather see a system that cannot cause you to lose a character due to connection issues, other players, or other things outside of your control. I've died due to lag. I've died due to disconnects. It would be lame to lose a character to that. I've died to people I was trying to cooperate with being idiots. I'd hate to have to make people fill out an application just to go do something with me so that I can figure out if they'll get me killed.
I'd suggest a system based on character aging and a family line (with a family name). Each player would have a main head-of-household character and younger children of the main. The children would get some passive learning from the main character with a suitable implementation such that the child is a decent character from this passive learning, but nowhere as good as the main. At any time, the player could play either the main or the child and each would progress separately (but still with the passive training bonus to the child). As a character aged, it's stats would decrease until at some point it's simply more productive to start using the child as the main character and the old main character becomes a grandfatherly figure that is fine for doing stuff around town with. As the main character ages, more play time would slowly shift to the child character.
Death a part of life? Im sorry that some think that death is something that should be carelessly thought about. Those who stick their neck out in life are those who succeed. The Chronicle maybe the answer I was looking for. Read more about it. The Chronicle says paraphrasing in my own words....
A main can only kill a main - This promotes that you have as much chance of dying in PVP battles as any other main. Takes a little more precaution to what your doing, makes you think a little more before you act.
A main character can get items that maynot be aquired by alternate characters - Why would you not have a balance to death? Reap the rewards, or die trying.
A main character may hold rank - They may hold high ranks in guilds and towns, ect.
There are other perks to having a permadeath character, you can read it. Find out for yourself. For me, im all for it.
The reason why i play games is for the fun and enjoyment. (dont we all?) I get a rush when I play games, this would just raise the bar. Yes you bet the loss of a main would be catastrophic... I would rip out my keyboard out and bash it against my table it to little pieces if i lost my main, (which probably will happen), but after another keyboard, you bet i would go back in a do it all over again.
Okay as in regards to real life 1) Real life doesn't have lag or glitches/bugs or most of the other things that would cause a character to be killed in an MMO.
2) (More importantly) We're talking about Games, not real life. People play games to enjoy themselves at doing something other than real life for a while.
The problem with 'giving players a sandbox' is that from a Game perspective, it's an inherently flawed premise. Sure it can sometimes work, but really it's only good for studies and experiments.
You can't make a 'game' where people have to then make their own fun, or build the game themselves. That's bad design. A game is supposed to be fun, not work. That's one of the major ideas behind WoW (said in an early interview), and probably one of the reasons it's doing so well. A blizzard employee said that they didn't believe in giving players a sandbox. Instead, Blizzard designed WoW with the idea that they wanted to give the players a Theme Park. When you go to a theme park, the rides are all there and you just have to ride them, and it's fun. In a sandbox, you have to make your own fun, which is not something I would pay for.
Permadeath is an interesting idea from a developers point of view, but people get upset when their hard work and effort disappears forever. They especially don't want to have to play all the way through the game again just to get to where they were before. That's why God invented the save point. It may work in some very small game concepts, but in general, MMO's are about having fun and being able to experience the entirety of the content in the game. If you have to play the same content repeatedly, you get bored. I will bow down before anyone who shows me an MMO with permadeath and 1million+ subscribers.
Losing everything just isn't fun.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
This does not prove this is the way to go. Real life is boring compared to games. The dynamics in games are also different. People won't do stuff in games that they find boring. You need to ensure that all roles that need to be fulfilled by players are ones that some player will enjoy enough to actually perform.
Even if you get a good justice system working in the game, what about adventure? It seems like this would lead to an avoidance of risks, which is what you see in real life. Even with your large family idea, the adventuresome ones in the family will be dropping like flies at which time you have to ask what is the point. Even if you are highly skilled and careful, you will lose many of the adventuring family member due to lag, disconnects, and just plain bad luck.
Real life is boring compared to games?- Hm, I think you need a real life first, not a better game. Mine is quite exciting and will get more exciting with raising a dozen of kids and act on more areas of business in a successful way in future. Life is actually a lot of fun, if you are able to enjoy it.
Redhobbit, in our game there are ways to coordinate several characters along with their vehicles and adventuring stuff also. At all times adventurer did not went away alone because this would be just stupid. There is always a group of adventurers and a group of transport guys and animals needed for an expedition-like adventure. If you do it the old school MMO way, it is your fault, you need to be more realistic and much more clever in our game in order to survive.
Lag and disconnects are not such a problem in our system, because the AI system is designed to take over characters actions at any time. This is the normal case if a player decides to jump out of a role and jump into another of this character. The left character will be taken over by AI and and the controls of that character the player is just jumping in are tranferred to the player.
Fights are semi-automated in our game (see discusssion thread below to find out more about it) and the AI is performing combat sequences actually using the skills of those characters for actions and tactics chosen by players. If a character does not have a player "in character" currently the AI chooses the action to perform - the system is permanently checking the lag resp. connection status during a fight and takes over automatically if there is no response or ping rates are getting too high. Tricks like pulling the plug to avoid death are worthless in our game - your character would just stay in the game and switch to AI combat like he always does when you leave him.
Ragosch
http://mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/472/loadthread/63636/setstart/1/loadclass/155
Ragosch, while you have an interesting point of view on the subject, I do have a question or two.
In your system, you say that the AI takes over for the player at some point. How will you address people whose characters have died permanently, and they say it was because of lag or a disconnect? They say that the AI took actions that they did not choose, and therefore they should not have their character permanently killed because your server dropped them and your AI made the wrong choices. Do you have a rule that says deaths during AI controlled combat are final no matter the circumstances?
Permanent Death is a very big deal, possibly the biggest even in a character's life, because it ends it.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000