Originally posted by Blurr Personally I think these "sandbox" games are badly designed. How are you going to charge me a monthly fee for a game that I have to build and run and make my own fun in? If you make a game you're supposed to be providing a game experience, not an empty lot where you say 'Okay go make the rest of the game yourselves'. Well, those are just my thoughts on it. But you can't just assume that people will police themselves, because with online anonymity people don't care if they aren't liked for ganking people in the woods.
Ok, that is a point which I may not have mentioned in this thread - our game will be invitational, players are not anonym. The concept is friends are playing with friends and without an invitation from us or a well-known and trusted player you cant play this game - you need a greencard by good reason. A dynamcially changing world is a dangerous place especially with perma-death implemented in the real no-return-ever style.
To sandbox games - I love sandbox games and for me they are the only games where I am free to conquer a world in the way I want to do this. What I dont like with WoW and EQ2 and those games is this theme park like entertainment. There is no freedom to do what you want, no, you need to replay scripted quests in the way devs want me to play them - I refuse, that is no fun for me at alll.
People are different, this is a fact and we should not assume that there would be a MMO which could please all of us. There are these mass market games which do please many people and there need to be some others made for different needs. We are creating such a game, which will not please the majority - and that is ok this way, because we do not want to play it with the majority which would ruin our fun experience by whining all the time about losses. Losses will happen, that is normal, now stop crying and start over again and make it better next time - that is how the game is like - take it or leave it.
Originally posted by Ragosch The only question is, do you want it like a theme park is - with guided entertainment and relative safety - or do you want it like a real adventure trip, with danger and risk, where you have to struggle and fight to survive and where it is a challenge to build up a community, a state or a nation and defend it against others or even go the imperialistic way and build an empire.
Uh, what about unguided and relative safety? I want some risk, but not too much. I want there to be interesting things in the world that I can find, but don't want led by the hand on what to do at every moment. These are 2 separate things that can be controlled (amount of guidance and amount of safety) and they vary along a spectrum of intermediate possibilities.
Originally posted by Ragosch People are different, this is a fact and we should not assume that there would be a MMO which could please all of us.
This is very true. It would be useful to have a list of various general things people enjoy about MMOs, like the Explorer, Socializer, Achievemer, Killer scale. I think there are more categories though, such as Builder, Politician, and Entrepreneur. If we had a list of what things people enjoy, then we can start talking about this feature would appeal to X,Y,Z types and annoy A,B,C types.
Actually I dont like games much which are basically about killing other players - commonly known as PvP, but PvP means more than just pk-ing IMO. So when I thought about the design of our game I wanted to create it pk-free at first but all those people I talked to were complaining heavily about it and my research about pk-free MMOs was also telling me that this might not be a good idea.
So I need to live with PvP, but I did not want to support pk-ing just for fun. That is why I thought about realism here to avoid pk-ing as much as possible and make it really hard for outlaws to survive, except if they choose the native tribe side which has nearly no access to new technology but some advantages from the start. I really like the survival part of our game and it should be hard for the settlers to conquer the new continent - but I want them to win in the long run, I want law and order to win in the long run, I want a superior economy to win in the long run - like it is in the real world too.
That is why I try to implement it in the only way I see this actually working - the real world. That is why it is more like a simulation than a typical RPG is - but it is still role-play, in fact it is multi-role play as a player can play out multiple roles at the same time, switching between his characters and acting on hot spots of the game.
I want pk-ers and other killer-type players to fear for their lives at any single moment they play and even when they are offline (because their characters stay in the game at all times) - I do not want them to be supported by system so that they are able to plaque the game with terrorism and grief - that is why it is really hard to play an outlaw role in our game and if you fail your are out of the game forever, no return, no second chance, no new account - so if you want to be an outlaw, take the real risks of it.
Ragosch
Btw: Redhobbit, if you read this carefully, you might find that it is exactly the version "unguided, but in relative safety" as long as you stay in the area controled by states and nations. In free territory there is no law and order so it might be outlaw territory (but how long?). Law and order will find their way into any single corner of the world - sooner or later.
The word, "GANKING" was invented solely for MMORPG games. Its like the 6th grader beating up a 1st grader for his lunch money. You never are involved in a fair fight in a mmorpg, its all random ganking by social degenerates and mentally unstable children who are mad that mommy told them to do house chores.
The word, "GANKING" doesnt exist for wargames and RTS games like counterstrike, wwiionline, warcraft, and starcraft.
And you want permadeath? Why? So you can live out your social-degenerate fantasies (ganking) on E-bayed characters (total loser), whilsts using macros? HAH!
Well personally on the subject of Permadeath, i think it should not happen. Alot of people work very hard to get there character/items/gold in a game. Not all people either have or want to spend the time to recreate a character everytime you get a group of "ganking" people. Such as in WoW, you can have the type of people who will camp your corpse, and wait for you to ressurect. You also have the higher levels, killing you as well becuase they.. i don't know why but they do. Not jsut working hard for your levels, but it would also make it hard to balance the economy. Crafters couldn't farm items safely, mages would be unbalanced as well, becuase most the time they have low armor which makes them easily acceptable to many, many deaths. The only class you would be able to play without worrying about dieing tons is some type of stealth character (be able to hide from ganking players, groups and higher levels) or some well protected character, such as a tank warrior or a paladin. Of course Permadeath would add some fun to the game, but it most cases it would just piss off, and annoy most people. But the idea of adding seperate servers for Permadeath and normal is a good idea, becuase i would play it, just never the server with my main characters.
Exactly. You'd have to have no levels and take the focus away from individual character development and instead focus on cooperation and goal progression. If your character dies along the way, you can still work towards the same cause with the next one, and people might take each character a little more seriously, as there would surely be some advantages to having a character that isn't just another in a long line of characters that you have carelessly gotten killed every 2 days. Maybe one goal would be to TRY and keep a character alive instead of the current goal of throwing your character at everything that moves, cuz there is no consequence, and heck, you might roll high and win and get experience and rise up the level-ladder.
Besides who ever said that in a ROLE PLAYING game you had to play the SAME character FOREVER on his quest to become UBER COOL. Why now PLAY ROLES that furthur the game world in some aspect according to self-set goals that cooperate with other players, and of course, sometimes conflict.
I would also create such a system that makes the perma-death take place ONLY at the hands of those that you yourself have aggressed against. Of course to really get anywhere you will have to take aggressive actions, but for good reasons and there will be consequences. Because of this you will have to pick your battles and weigh the risks. I would allow the option to remain completely passive and thus avoid perma-death, but then you probably won't be a major power in the world and can just do your own thing.
Originally posted by ironore I would also create such a system that makes the perma-death take place ONLY at the hands of those that you yourself have aggressed against. I would allow the option to remain completely passive and thus avoid perma-death, but then you probably won't be a major power in the world and can just do your own thing.
I am not sure that I got those 2 points above - would you please elaborate a little more, Ironore?
It might be specific to my design, where you do have just one character at a time, but the focus is taken off that character (i.e. no level grinding). I still don't plan for that character to die every time it is defeated in combat. Rather the character is rendered quite helpless until some major medical help can be found. This does not mean that the character is safe from loss of all assets.
This is intended to allow those people who don't want to engage in any aggressive actions to keep playing the same character. However, they can still loose all their assets and goods and workers at the hands of other aggressors, but as long as they choose not to fight back their actual character will be safe. It's kind of like you choose to participate in aggressive actions and risk your character, or not. Since the focus has been taken off character you really won't get very far with this approach. Anyone wishing to have some power in the world will most likely have to take aggressive action at some point to defend their assets.
Actually permadeath would be the "permadeath" of a mmog. To rebuttal his top ten....
10. Yes this would help some, but as soon as you say you're selling ingame items for real world cash you just lost a lot of customers. Those that do decide to play anyways will find themselves being spammed ingame for "Death Credits only X dollars", by lvl 1 bots daily.
9. PVP would be exciting, except there would be less people actually pvping. Many times PVP consists of the hardcore and the pvp "lite" crowd. Add a permadeath feature and the lite crowd will bail figuring the risk is far too great vs the reward. This will leave the smaller hardcore crowd wondering "gah this pvp zone is always dead where is everyone?"
8. Guilds will have more meaning how? If anything guilds will be more leery of recruiting anyone until they 100% sure he is gonna pull when not ready and wipe the group/raid. Soloists would be few and far between as they know that by themselves the chance for a permadeath is much greater.
7. Actually there would be more cheating and bots. Many players would make a "trash" bot to take deaths, pull mobs, etc to avoid permadeaths on their main. Cheating and hacks would increase as some would try to find ways to work around the permadeath system.
6. Permadeath would make griefing go thru the roof. Just like Griefers grief for the sole reason that they enjoy making the other person's day miserable. To give them a chance to forever kill that character off would make the Griefers everyone begin drooling in excitement.
5. Increased communication? Perhaps, but I can see a lot of small niches forming. Certain people only grouping with certain others they know won't get them killed. They will refuse to group with anyone else they don't know for fear of permadeath
4. More immersion due to permadeath? More like more frustration as you die due to lag, lost connection, server burps, griefing, etc. There are far better ways to immerse the player than having them risking never being able to play that char again.
3. Permadeath doesn't make a game harder or easier. It's just a "cheap" way of penalizing people. Creating better AI and unique encounters increases the overall challenge rather than just "if you die this char is forever dead... good luck!" mentality.
2. Characters would not be recycled for long. In the beginning losing a lowbie wouldn't be a big deal. Later on if your Super Uber Warrior at Level Cap suddenly goes forever POOF, I doubt very much that the player would just eagerly clap and start a new lvl 1 char. More likely, would be a "cancel subscription" situation.
1. This statment is quite frankly so asinine and elitist this is all I will say about it.
Permadeath, or at least some form of it, is a great idea for several reasons.
1. Permadeath is one of the best ways to implement immersion. PvP would be much more intense, although I would think there would not be many matches to the death! There are many ways to deal with griefing if it does become a problem. Put a price on their heads, hunt them down with the city guards, etc. etc. As a side note, there are several older games that allow attacks on anyone, but do not have a problem with griefers. That type of mentality is not tolerated by the community (kind of like real life).
2. Hunts would need to be better planned out and/or require more cooperation in harder areas to avoid death.
3. People would respect higher level characters, especially if "leveling" was harder or took longer than it does in most games today. Rather than finding "leveling" areas and grinding up to the next "level", people would be more inclined to actually "play" the game. Another side note... leveling is just an artifact of the original D&D game that for some reason has hung on and on and on when there is really no need for it. There are 100's of more creative and realistic ways to increase skill levels other than some "number" called a "level".
4. If the games were built with permadeath in mind, and other aspects adhered to (some of which I've mentioned) the investor mentality would change from "quick bucks" to "steady income". One post mentioned something like "well, I would get through it faster and move on" but this is only because that is what current games focus on. The type of player that is there to "get all the good stuff", become UBER, and experience everything will move on regardless. There are alternatives like a rich environment, complex combat systems, more realistic loot systems, more elaborate quest systems with "heroic" and one-of-a-kind items. These would all enhance player longevity.
The problem with the permadeath idea is that other aspects of most games, give rise to the concerns stated in previous posts. In conjunction with other fundamental changes, permadeath could work wonders for immersion and roleplay. For instance, we take it for granted that we would "have to start character after character", or "poof" goes our uber high level character. This is only because we are used to extremely high random crits or completely unexpected situations that are difficult, or impossible to run away from. A measured, intelligent combat system with known odds could solve this so that only the foolhardy or extremely unlucky would be killed (just like in real life). An extremely high experience vs. skill level curve intensifies the problem in the case of lesser level characters vs. higher level characters. A lower curve would not only even the odds for PvP, but would also ease the boredom of higher level characters against lower level mobs.
First, does anyone else find it shocking how many folks are talking like EQ created the MMORPG and WoW 'perfected' it? Especially all this clinging to level-based thinking (which I'm really, really tired of.)
Anyway, on to genuine discussion of points... there's really only been a few brought up that (IMO) need addressing. The rest reeks more of the "change is evil and scary and I don't like you for talking about it" impulse.
1) Lag-death. Certainly a big deal in the current stock of games where death is generally only slightly less common than upgrading your armour. That would have to change; I'd propose a new state, 'disabled' or 'critically wounded' or something that would be the general outcome of a battle. You'd have a chance to recover from it, and if the server determined that you were lagged out or disconnected when it happened you'd automatically succeed at that chance. Yes, open to disconnect-exploitation (omg I'm going to die, unplug the modem!) but since the idea is for it to be 'rare but possible,' I'm find with that. If you die lots, you'll miss eventually. Another option is AI auto-defence in case of lag/disco/crash, tho I'd recommend the ability to script some default behaviours in that case (especially if real-time.)
2) People won't take risks if there's a chance they could lose their character. Actually, this one confuses me: what risks are you taking *now,* when the worst that happens is you lose some xp/sp and have to find a healer/spiritguide/respoint/whatever? A few minutes of time, big deal.
3) Griefers. Guess what, griefing happens in games without PvP; it happens in games without *combat* of any kind, even. Having some option to permanently deal with a griefer's character - short of begging the admins to ban the bastard - is a good thing. Especially if you're honest about the game - it's hard to be a genuine griefer PK in a world where even the non-griefers are ready, willing and capable of engaging in PvP. (Especially if you've got wannabe-cops playing; They're *looking* for griefers to kill.) Just ask the folks who've played on Siege in UO. It's a lot easier if the other players are trying to avoid that aspect of the game. So advertise the game *honestly.*
Now some random replies to random posts in the thread:
Originally posted by Phoenixs Originally posted by Ragosch There will be no discussion, dead is dead - if you dont want to take the risk, dont play our game. As simple as it can be. Ragosch
That was the best marketing slogan ever! A exellent way to make a game a COMPLETE economic failure
What utter rot. You act like anything outside of mainstream domination is a "COMPLETE economic failure," and it's thinking like that which leaves us with nothing more than tweaked EQ clone after tweaked EQ clone.
When you've got a niche game, the best thing you can do for it is be honest; appeal to the folks in that niche, and discourage the folks who won't like it. You won't be as massive as something that washes itself out trying to appeal to everyone, but the audience you *do* get will have more loyalty. That's hardly a failure.
[quote]posted by blurr The fact is, the MAJORITY of people don't want permadeath. [quote]
Probably true, but so what? The question should not be 'what does the majority want?' but 'do enough people want this?' I sure as hell want it. Obviously a few others do too. And it's not like we want to force this model on everyone. I
Originally posted by DrowNoble Actually permadeath would be the "permadeath" of a mmog. To rebuttal his top ten.... 10. Yes this would help some, but as soon as you say you're selling ingame items for real world cash you just lost a lot of customers. Those that do decide to play anyways will find themselves being spammed ingame for "Death Credits only X dollars", by lvl 1 bots daily. 9. PVP would be exciting, except there would be less people actually pvping. Many times PVP consists of the hardcore and the pvp "lite" crowd. Add a permadeath feature and the lite crowd will bail figuring the risk is far too great vs the reward. This will leave the smaller hardcore crowd wondering "gah this pvp zone is always dead where is everyone?" 8. Guilds will have more meaning how? If anything guilds will be more leery of recruiting anyone until they 100% sure he is gonna pull when not ready and wipe the group/raid. Soloists would be few and far between as they know that by themselves the chance for a permadeath is much greater. 7. Actually there would be more cheating and bots. Many players would make a "trash" bot to take deaths, pull mobs, etc to avoid permadeaths on their main. Cheating and hacks would increase as some would try to find ways to work around the permadeath system. 6. Permadeath would make griefing go thru the roof. Just like Griefers grief for the sole reason that they enjoy making the other person's day miserable. To give them a chance to forever kill that character off would make the Griefers everyone begin drooling in excitement. 5. Increased communication? Perhaps, but I can see a lot of small niches forming. Certain people only grouping with certain others they know won't get them killed. They will refuse to group with anyone else they don't know for fear of permadeath 4. More immersion due to permadeath? More like more frustration as you die due to lag, lost connection, server burps, griefing, etc. There are far better ways to immerse the player than having them risking never being able to play that char again. 3. Permadeath doesn't make a game harder or easier. It's just a "cheap" way of penalizing people. Creating better AI and unique encounters increases the overall challenge rather than just "if you die this char is forever dead... good luck!" mentality. 2. Characters would not be recycled for long. In the beginning losing a lowbie wouldn't be a big deal. Later on if your Super Uber Warrior at Level Cap suddenly goes forever POOF, I doubt very much that the player would just eagerly clap and start a new lvl 1 char. More likely, would be a "cancel subscription" situation. 1. This statment is quite frankly so asinine and elitist this is all I will say about it.
As far as I know, there isn't an MMO, free or otherwise, that uses permadeath. There are a handful of MUDs that use permadeath like DartMud. Most of those MUDs have a rather lenient permadeath system like Carrion Fields, where you lose a certain amount of CON everytime you die until you reach 0 and can't be resurected again. You can get CON points back, but you have to go on a quest assigned by one of the Imms. In short, you'll probably need to start your character over at that point.
Other semi-permadeath examples would be DragonRealms and Archaic Journey (aj.arthmoor.com PORT: 4000). The former has these crystals that you have to keep in stock to be rezzed. The latter only has permadeath for dragon characters under level 20. I believe that MUD1 was also permadeath, but I'm not sure since that was quite a bit before my time.
After reading numerous reply posts ive come to the conclusion 90% of people here did not read my original post thorougly enough.
1) 'omg but i might die cause of lag and waaaa that would suck'
Well thats why everyone would have 100 or more deaths before they are permanently dead... Everyone knows in every mmorpg you cannot avoid lag now and then, but its defintely not a factor 95% of the time.
2) 'omg but if im level 4 and some level 763929 guy comes up to me he'll kill me instantly'
Thats why a level system wouldnt work. A new player has to be able to survive or defend against a player whos been around for a year. Instant, undefendable death has to be extremely rare or not exist. Combat in general has to last much longer, chances to escape have to be greater. Therefore death has to be less frequent in general.
3) 'thered be even more griefers ppl would make bots to protect their main'
lol.. in a world that would require communication, intelligence, strategy and friends itl take more than a bot to do griefing. Someone posted mentioning how itl be 'bands of griefers' well thats not really griefing than is it? I believe the definition of that is 'war'.
4) 'but if i die forever im gonna quit and never come back, itl suck omg, ill go and cry under my bed and in my closet and then in 2 weeks ill come back after im done crying because ill realise that im just a big baby and maybe it was a real challenge unlike eq or wow...'
5) 'dumbest post ever omg im 1337 and id rather pointlessly grind and whine about nerfing and other pointless things thx'
When you're out of mmorpg-diapers come join us in the next generation of games
Originally posted by Gamewize The absolute number one reason permadeath will never become widespread: Ask yourself, after spending 4 months of mind-numbing hardship and work to build a character with all the best stuff, do you REALLY want to have some jerk mob come up and kill you, thereby losing everything you have? Eve online doesn't even have permadeath, you just lose a whole crapload of skills if you don't have a good enough clone. It might add great excitement to a game, but I don't want a game to become another lfie for me, that's why permadeath is usually left out.
What if it were near impossible for that person to insta-kill you unless you are already injured, and what if even if you did die, you diddnt lose anything? (because that was death #1 of 100) lol.. does anybody read anymore? damn mmos not promoting reading...
Originally posted by anarchyart Number 1 reason why Perma Death is a bad idea: Hackers
What if you reported a hacker and that person was caught, and you gained a 100 death credit reward for reporting him? Solutions people!! Its ok to escape from the drone worlds and think of ideas now and then
Originally posted by CardinalSin This is just such a bad idea that keeps coming up. So youself and your crew have driven hard through Death Valley down Highway 99, you're blasted your way through road blocks, and outrun a major attack by scrub raiders. You've found the abandoned nuclear power station, and are successfully battling the Brotherhood of Steel when your connection dies and everyone wipes. Not only is the run over. Not only have you lost your character, but the rest of the party are screaming at you because they've lost their characters too, and are vowing never to play with you again because you've got a shitty connection. Yes, permadeath is the route to happy gameplay. An ironman server in anygame would be good for a laugh, but otherwise you just can't have the same connection to any character because they have to be very replaceable. There could be a place for this in a game that is not about building a developing character. But in that case is it really permadeath? If you just generate another rifleman in 15 secs (cos what's the point in spending time over his creation), and get back to the fight, who died? Cardinalsin the 74th? This is just a crap idea. That's why it is never used. It strongly discourages you from doing anything risky (ie exciting), and strongly encourages you to do completely safe, unchallanging, boring things for as long as your soul can stand it. Then when you get killed trying to do something a bit more risky, you have to do what you should have done in the first place - delete the game, take the disks, put them on a clay pigeon launcher and reach for a shotgun. Nick
For.. the... thousandth... time.... permadeath... does... not... have... to... mean... that... you..... are... permanently... dead... AFTER ONLY 1 DEATH.... god help us all
Originally posted by Phoenixs China boy be safe in permadeath game service. http://www.no-pd-with-haxx-army.ch.tw.co We offer new service. If you like don't permadeath. You pay 300 $. We make personal army. You don't die. We 100 accounts make to protect you. Very safe. We don't hack use. Visit our site today. Super service! A new market has been created Serious now. First of all permadeath will never really happen. The majority doesn't want it. It doesn't sell and therefor the risks involved in making this is way to big.
Ahh even more reason for people to make guilds to attack these 'markets'
Permadeath will happen. It exists in almost all PNP games (thats pen and paper for you young'uns). It exists in MUD's. It will exist fairly commonly in MMO's when they learn how to implement it properly. The 'majority doesnt want it' statement probably refers to single-death permadeath in current level based mmo's. (which we all know just wouldnt work)
And the reason it will sell is because its the #1 best way to recycle old characters. Either those characters will resort to staying in extremely safe areas (perhaps to mentor young players, build libraries, run governments, etc) or they will allow their character to die and play a new character.
As I've stated earlier, implementing permadeath in any MMORPG will ensure permadeath of the game.
Let's take an example like EVE Online. Now, EVE Online doesn't have permadeath, but it does have quite a severe penalty for dying. Now, imagine this scenario. You can only get podded, say, 100 times before your character is permanently deleted. What will we see? It's easy to predict the end result. Nearly all of the population will move to high-security space, where they cannot be killed by pirates. Heck, even the pirates will move to high-sec space. 0.0 will become nearly empty. Griefers will increase and corp wars and random war declarations will increase to compensate. We will also see the collapse of the economy as high-sec space gets an influx of too many miners. Essentially, people will become 'carebear' in order to protect their lives.
This example can easily be applied to other games. Permadeath COULD work if implemented correctly, but the number of people who'd want to play the game will be very low. It works on pencil and paper games because you're playing with a small group of people you're familiar with. It works in MUDs because MUDs focus a lot more on roleplaying. But it does not work in MMORPGs where most players have a grinding mentality rather than any sense of roleplaying or adventure.
Originally posted by Ranma13 Permadeath COULD work if implemented correctly
That's exactly the point, it has to be implemented correctly, and the entire game would need to be built with the idea of permadeath in mind. The whole idea is exactly to change the grinding mentality and play style. Man, if you aren't tired of that and don't want something different, I don't know what to tell you. Have fun, I guess. There's nothing wrong with that, if it's what you want. But for those who are tired and bored with that kind of game, it's time to start looking at alternatives that are different.
Comments
Ok, that is a point which I may not have mentioned in this thread - our game will be invitational, players are not anonym. The concept is friends are playing with friends and without an invitation from us or a well-known and trusted player you cant play this game - you need a greencard by good reason. A dynamcially changing world is a dangerous place especially with perma-death implemented in the real no-return-ever style.
To sandbox games - I love sandbox games and for me they are the only games where I am free to conquer a world in the way I want to do this. What I dont like with WoW and EQ2 and those games is this theme park like entertainment. There is no freedom to do what you want, no, you need to replay scripted quests in the way devs want me to play them - I refuse, that is no fun for me at alll.
People are different, this is a fact and we should not assume that there would be a MMO which could please all of us. There are these mass market games which do please many people and there need to be some others made for different needs. We are creating such a game, which will not please the majority - and that is ok this way, because we do not want to play it with the majority which would ruin our fun experience by whining all the time about losses. Losses will happen, that is normal, now stop crying and start over again and make it better next time - that is how the game is like - take it or leave it.
Ragosch
Uh, what about unguided and relative safety? I want some risk, but not too much. I want there to be interesting things in the world that I can find, but don't want led by the hand on what to do at every moment. These are 2 separate things that can be controlled (amount of guidance and amount of safety) and they vary along a spectrum of intermediate possibilities.
This is very true. It would be useful to have a list of various general things people enjoy about MMOs, like the Explorer, Socializer, Achievemer, Killer scale. I think there are more categories though, such as Builder, Politician, and Entrepreneur. If we had a list of what things people enjoy, then we can start talking about this feature would appeal to X,Y,Z types and annoy A,B,C types.
Actually I dont like games much which are basically about killing other players - commonly known as PvP, but PvP means more than just pk-ing IMO. So when I thought about the design of our game I wanted to create it pk-free at first but all those people I talked to were complaining heavily about it and my research about pk-free MMOs was also telling me that this might not be a good idea.
So I need to live with PvP, but I did not want to support pk-ing just for fun. That is why I thought about realism here to avoid pk-ing as much as possible and make it really hard for outlaws to survive, except if they choose the native tribe side which has nearly no access to new technology but some advantages from the start. I really like the survival part of our game and it should be hard for the settlers to conquer the new continent - but I want them to win in the long run, I want law and order to win in the long run, I want a superior economy to win in the long run - like it is in the real world too.
That is why I try to implement it in the only way I see this actually working - the real world. That is why it is more like a simulation than a typical RPG is - but it is still role-play, in fact it is multi-role play as a player can play out multiple roles at the same time, switching between his characters and acting on hot spots of the game.
I want pk-ers and other killer-type players to fear for their lives at any single moment they play and even when they are offline (because their characters stay in the game at all times) - I do not want them to be supported by system so that they are able to plaque the game with terrorism and grief - that is why it is really hard to play an outlaw role in our game and if you fail your are out of the game forever, no return, no second chance, no new account - so if you want to be an outlaw, take the real risks of it.
Ragosch
Btw: Redhobbit, if you read this carefully, you might find that it is exactly the version "unguided, but in relative safety" as long as you stay in the area controled by states and nations. In free territory there is no law and order so it might be outlaw territory (but how long?). Law and order will find their way into any single corner of the world - sooner or later.
The word, "GANKING" was invented solely for MMORPG games. Its like the 6th grader beating up a 1st grader for his lunch money. You never are involved in a fair fight in a mmorpg, its all random ganking by social degenerates and mentally unstable children who are mad that mommy told them to do house chores.
The word, "GANKING" doesnt exist for wargames and RTS games like counterstrike, wwiionline, warcraft, and starcraft.
And you want permadeath? Why? So you can live out your social-degenerate fantasies (ganking) on E-bayed characters (total loser), whilsts using macros? HAH!
Well personally on the subject of Permadeath, i think it should not happen. Alot of people work very hard to get there character/items/gold in a game. Not all people either have or want to spend the time to recreate a character everytime you get a group of "ganking" people. Such as in WoW, you can have the type of people who will camp your corpse, and wait for you to ressurect. You also have the higher levels, killing you as well becuase they.. i don't know why but they do. Not jsut working hard for your levels, but it would also make it hard to balance the economy. Crafters couldn't farm items safely, mages would be unbalanced as well, becuase most the time they have low armor which makes them easily acceptable to many, many deaths. The only class you would be able to play without worrying about dieing tons is some type of stealth character (be able to hide from ganking players, groups and higher levels) or some well protected character, such as a tank warrior or a paladin. Of course Permadeath would add some fun to the game, but it most cases it would just piss off, and annoy most people. But the idea of adding seperate servers for Permadeath and normal is a good idea, becuase i would play it, just never the server with my main characters.
Well that is my 2 cents :P good day!
"Peace is in the eye of the beholder"
Phenoix63, perma-death is not meant to be implemented in a level-based system, just because it does not work in a fair way there.
Ragosch
Exactly. You'd have to have no levels and take the focus away from individual character development and instead focus on cooperation and goal progression. If your character dies along the way, you can still work towards the same cause with the next one, and people might take each character a little more seriously, as there would surely be some advantages to having a character that isn't just another in a long line of characters that you have carelessly gotten killed every 2 days. Maybe one goal would be to TRY and keep a character alive instead of the current goal of throwing your character at everything that moves, cuz there is no consequence, and heck, you might roll high and win and get experience and rise up the level-ladder.
Besides who ever said that in a ROLE PLAYING game you had to play the SAME character FOREVER on his quest to become UBER COOL. Why now PLAY ROLES that furthur the game world in some aspect according to self-set goals that cooperate with other players, and of course, sometimes conflict.
I would also create such a system that makes the perma-death take place ONLY at the hands of those that you yourself have aggressed against. Of course to really get anywhere you will have to take aggressive actions, but for good reasons and there will be consequences. Because of this you will have to pick your battles and weigh the risks. I would allow the option to remain completely passive and thus avoid perma-death, but then you probably won't be a major power in the world and can just do your own thing.
Well that's just my 45 cents worth.
IronOre - Forging the Future
I am not sure that I got those 2 points above - would you please elaborate a little more, Ironore?
Ragosch
It might be specific to my design, where you do have just one character at a time, but the focus is taken off that character (i.e. no level grinding). I still don't plan for that character to die every time it is defeated in combat. Rather the character is rendered quite helpless until some major medical help can be found. This does not mean that the character is safe from loss of all assets.
This is intended to allow those people who don't want to engage in any aggressive actions to keep playing the same character. However, they can still loose all their assets and goods and workers at the hands of other aggressors, but as long as they choose not to fight back their actual character will be safe. It's kind of like you choose to participate in aggressive actions and risk your character, or not. Since the focus has been taken off character you really won't get very far with this approach. Anyone wishing to have some power in the world will most likely have to take aggressive action at some point to defend their assets.
IronOre - Forging the Future
Actually permadeath would be the "permadeath" of a mmog. To rebuttal his top ten....
10. Yes this would help some, but as soon as you say you're selling ingame items for real world cash you just lost a lot of customers. Those that do decide to play anyways will find themselves being spammed ingame for "Death Credits only X dollars", by lvl 1 bots daily.
9. PVP would be exciting, except there would be less people actually pvping. Many times PVP consists of the hardcore and the pvp "lite" crowd. Add a permadeath feature and the lite crowd will bail figuring the risk is far too great vs the reward. This will leave the smaller hardcore crowd wondering "gah this pvp zone is always dead where is everyone?"
8. Guilds will have more meaning how? If anything guilds will be more leery of recruiting anyone until they 100% sure he is gonna pull when not ready and wipe the group/raid. Soloists would be few and far between as they know that by themselves the chance for a permadeath is much greater.
7. Actually there would be more cheating and bots. Many players would make a "trash" bot to take deaths, pull mobs, etc to avoid permadeaths on their main. Cheating and hacks would increase as some would try to find ways to work around the permadeath system.
6. Permadeath would make griefing go thru the roof. Just like Griefers grief for the sole reason that they enjoy making the other person's day miserable. To give them a chance to forever kill that character off would make the Griefers everyone begin drooling in excitement.
5. Increased communication? Perhaps, but I can see a lot of small niches forming. Certain people only grouping with certain others they know won't get them killed. They will refuse to group with anyone else they don't know for fear of permadeath
4. More immersion due to permadeath? More like more frustration as you die due to lag, lost connection, server burps, griefing, etc. There are far better ways to immerse the player than having them risking never being able to play that char again.
3. Permadeath doesn't make a game harder or easier. It's just a "cheap" way of penalizing people. Creating better AI and unique encounters increases the overall challenge rather than just "if you die this char is forever dead... good luck!" mentality.
2. Characters would not be recycled for long. In the beginning losing a lowbie wouldn't be a big deal. Later on if your Super Uber Warrior at Level Cap suddenly goes forever POOF, I doubt very much that the player would just eagerly clap and start a new lvl 1 char. More likely, would be a "cancel subscription" situation.
1. This statment is quite frankly so asinine and elitist this is all I will say about it.
stupid idea, whoever came up with this should be shot. Go play your fantasy game in your head.
Permadeath, or at least some form of it, is a great idea for several reasons.
1. Permadeath is one of the best ways to implement immersion. PvP would be much more intense, although I would think there would not be many matches to the death! There are many ways to deal with griefing if it does become a problem. Put a price on their heads, hunt them down with the city guards, etc. etc. As a side note, there are several older games that allow attacks on anyone, but do not have a problem with griefers. That type of mentality is not tolerated by the community (kind of like real life).
2. Hunts would need to be better planned out and/or require more cooperation in harder areas to avoid death.
3. People would respect higher level characters, especially if "leveling" was harder or took longer than it does in most games today. Rather than finding "leveling" areas and grinding up to the next "level", people would be more inclined to actually "play" the game. Another side note... leveling is just an artifact of the original D&D game that for some reason has hung on and on and on when there is really no need for it. There are 100's of more creative and realistic ways to increase skill levels other than some "number" called a "level".
4. If the games were built with permadeath in mind, and other aspects adhered to (some of which I've mentioned) the investor mentality would change from "quick bucks" to "steady income". One post mentioned something like "well, I would get through it faster and move on" but this is only because that is what current games focus on. The type of player that is there to "get all the good stuff", become UBER, and experience everything will move on regardless. There are alternatives like a rich environment, complex combat systems, more realistic loot systems, more elaborate quest systems with "heroic" and one-of-a-kind items. These would all enhance player longevity.
The problem with the permadeath idea is that other aspects of most games, give rise to the concerns stated in previous posts. In conjunction with other fundamental changes, permadeath could work wonders for immersion and roleplay. For instance, we take it for granted that we would "have to start character after character", or "poof" goes our uber high level character. This is only because we are used to extremely high random crits or completely unexpected situations that are difficult, or impossible to run away from. A measured, intelligent combat system with known odds could solve this so that only the foolhardy or extremely unlucky would be killed (just like in real life). An extremely high experience vs. skill level curve intensifies the problem in the case of lesser level characters vs. higher level characters. A lower curve would not only even the odds for PvP, but would also ease the boredom of higher level characters against lower level mobs.
First, does anyone else find it shocking how many folks are talking like EQ created the MMORPG and WoW 'perfected' it? Especially all this clinging to level-based thinking (which I'm really, really tired of.)
Anyway, on to genuine discussion of points... there's really only been a few brought up that (IMO) need addressing. The rest reeks more of the "change is evil and scary and I don't like you for talking about it" impulse.
1) Lag-death. Certainly a big deal in the current stock of games where death is generally only slightly less common than upgrading your armour. That would have to change; I'd propose a new state, 'disabled' or 'critically wounded' or something that would be the general outcome of a battle. You'd have a chance to recover from it, and if the server determined that you were lagged out or disconnected when it happened you'd automatically succeed at that chance. Yes, open to disconnect-exploitation (omg I'm going to die, unplug the modem!) but since the idea is for it to be 'rare but possible,' I'm find with that. If you die lots, you'll miss eventually. Another option is AI auto-defence in case of lag/disco/crash, tho I'd recommend the ability to script some default behaviours in that case (especially if real-time.)
2) People won't take risks if there's a chance they could lose their character. Actually, this one confuses me: what risks are you taking *now,* when the worst that happens is you lose some xp/sp and have to find a healer/spiritguide/respoint/whatever? A few minutes of time, big deal.
3) Griefers. Guess what, griefing happens in games without PvP; it happens in games without *combat* of any kind, even. Having some option to permanently deal with a griefer's character - short of begging the admins to ban the bastard - is a good thing. Especially if you're honest about the game - it's hard to be a genuine griefer PK in a world where even the non-griefers are ready, willing and capable of engaging in PvP. (Especially if you've got wannabe-cops playing; They're *looking* for griefers to kill.) Just ask the folks who've played on Siege in UO. It's a lot easier if the other players are trying to avoid that aspect of the game. So advertise the game *honestly.*
Now some random replies to random posts in the thread:
That was the best marketing slogan ever!
A exellent way to make a game a COMPLETE economic failure 
What utter rot. You act like anything outside of mainstream domination is a "COMPLETE economic failure," and it's thinking like that which leaves us with nothing more than tweaked EQ clone after tweaked EQ clone.
When you've got a niche game, the best thing you can do for it is be honest; appeal to the folks in that niche, and discourage the folks who won't like it. You won't be as massive as something that washes itself out trying to appeal to everyone, but the audience you *do* get will have more loyalty. That's hardly a failure.
[quote]posted by blurr
The fact is, the MAJORITY of people don't want permadeath.
[quote]
Probably true, but so what? The question should not be 'what does the majority want?' but 'do enough people want this?' I sure as hell want it. Obviously a few others do too. And it's not like we want to force this model on everyone. I
Someone should rename this thread to "Top 10 ways to lose customers".
Has anyone tried having perma death in their own mmos or online games as such?
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Give me lights give me action. With a touch of a button!
As far as I know, there isn't an MMO, free or otherwise, that uses permadeath. There are a handful of MUDs that use permadeath like DartMud. Most of those MUDs have a rather lenient permadeath system like Carrion Fields, where you lose a certain amount of CON everytime you die until you reach 0 and can't be resurected again. You can get CON points back, but you have to go on a quest assigned by one of the Imms. In short, you'll probably need to start your character over at that point.
Other semi-permadeath examples would be DragonRealms and Archaic Journey (aj.arthmoor.com PORT: 4000). The former has these crystals that you have to keep in stock to be rezzed. The latter only has permadeath for dragon characters under level 20. I believe that MUD1 was also permadeath, but I'm not sure since that was quite a bit before my time.
Looks like my post stirred up the community
After reading numerous reply posts ive come to the conclusion 90% of people here did not read my original post thorougly enough.
1) 'omg but i might die cause of lag and waaaa that would suck'
Well thats why everyone would have 100 or more deaths before they are permanently dead... Everyone knows in every mmorpg you cannot avoid lag now and then, but its defintely not a factor 95% of the time.
2) 'omg but if im level 4 and some level 763929 guy comes up to me he'll kill me instantly'
Thats why a level system wouldnt work. A new player has to be able to survive or defend against a player whos been around for a year. Instant, undefendable death has to be extremely rare or not exist. Combat in general has to last much longer, chances to escape have to be greater. Therefore death has to be less frequent in general.
3) 'thered be even more griefers ppl would make bots to protect their main'
lol.. in a world that would require communication, intelligence, strategy and friends itl take more than a bot to do griefing. Someone posted mentioning how itl be 'bands of griefers' well thats not really griefing than is it? I believe the definition of that is 'war'.
4) 'but if i die forever im gonna quit and never come back, itl suck omg, ill go and cry under my bed and in my closet and then in 2 weeks ill come back after im done crying because ill realise that im just a big baby and maybe it was a real challenge unlike eq or wow...'
5) 'dumbest post ever omg im 1337 and id rather pointlessly grind and whine about nerfing and other pointless things thx'
When you're out of mmorpg-diapers come join us in the next generation of games
What if you reported a hacker and that person was caught, and you gained a 100 death credit reward for reporting him? Solutions people!! Its ok to escape from the drone worlds and think of ideas now and then
For.. the... thousandth... time.... permadeath... does... not... have... to... mean... that... you..... are... permanently... dead... AFTER ONLY 1 DEATH.... god help us all
Ahh even more reason for people to make guilds to attack these 'markets'
Permadeath will happen. It exists in almost all PNP games (thats pen and paper for you young'uns). It exists in MUD's. It will exist fairly commonly in MMO's when they learn how to implement it properly. The 'majority doesnt want it' statement probably refers to single-death permadeath in current level based mmo's. (which we all know just wouldnt work)
And the reason it will sell is because its the #1 best way to recycle old characters. Either those characters will resort to staying in extremely safe areas (perhaps to mentor young players, build libraries, run governments, etc) or they will allow their character to die and play a new character.
As I've stated earlier, implementing permadeath in any MMORPG will ensure permadeath of the game.
Let's take an example like EVE Online. Now, EVE Online doesn't have permadeath, but it does have quite a severe penalty for dying. Now, imagine this scenario. You can only get podded, say, 100 times before your character is permanently deleted. What will we see? It's easy to predict the end result. Nearly all of the population will move to high-security space, where they cannot be killed by pirates. Heck, even the pirates will move to high-sec space. 0.0 will become nearly empty. Griefers will increase and corp wars and random war declarations will increase to compensate. We will also see the collapse of the economy as high-sec space gets an influx of too many miners. Essentially, people will become 'carebear' in order to protect their lives.
This example can easily be applied to other games. Permadeath COULD work if implemented correctly, but the number of people who'd want to play the game will be very low. It works on pencil and paper games because you're playing with a small group of people you're familiar with. It works in MUDs because MUDs focus a lot more on roleplaying. But it does not work in MMORPGs where most players have a grinding mentality rather than any sense of roleplaying or adventure.
That's exactly the point, it has to be implemented correctly, and the entire game would need to be built with the idea of permadeath in mind. The whole idea is exactly to change the grinding mentality and play style. Man, if you aren't tired of that and don't want something different, I don't know what to tell you. Have fun, I guess. There's nothing wrong with that, if it's what you want. But for those who are tired and bored with that kind of game, it's time to start looking at alternatives that are different.
Once upon a time....