I agree with your ideas of peoples feelings about this and why this game is different due to the fact it is and MMO, and I see why people feel so strongly about this game, however why in the world would anyone in there right mind allow themselves to get wraped up in a situation were your feelings and you relationship as one person said your second life is in control of a company like any other company that bases all its desicions on making more money no matter what it takes or what it does. To honestly think that a company cares what people thinks is silly, SOE can go out and make a game tommorow and they will sell it and it will do well. And I never said that you people have mental problems what I said was that it was unbalanced to put yourself in a situation were if you get connected to these MMO so easily and it turns into a second life for you, you are being unbalanced to let yourself get into that situation when a company has the control to do as they please.
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
Originally posted by azhrarn However, if you DON'T have the excuse of not being able to view people online as real human beings and you DON'T believe that online relationships -- friendship or otherwise -- are as valid, deep and real as those that are not taking place in a virtual environment... well I don't think I'd want to know you in any context, online or off. And I'm quite sure that the feeling would be most mutual.
I'll discuss more in a moment, but ...
'Friendship or otherwise' You honestly would make a true enemy in a game? I can understand friends; I've made many myself over the years playing. However, anything towards animosity I think is taking the issue too far.
I've enjoyed the community of each game Ive played (yes, including WoW's). The reason I bother with mmos in the first place is to interact with other players, rather than a predictable AI. However, I'm not looking to forge any deep meaningful relationships; I'm there to enjoy a game. If friendships development out the experience, so be it.
I think some people take these games all too seriously.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by IcoGames 'Friendship or otherwise' You honestly would make a true enemy in a game? I can understand friends; I've made many myself over the years playing. However, anything towards animosity I think is taking the issue too far.
/eyeroll
And here we have a man who sees the glass half empty. It hadn't even occured to me that "otherwise" would be construed to mean enmity. I don't consider that to be a relationship, though in hindsight, maybe some people do. For me, enmity isn't a natural state and it takes some serious work to get me willing to expend the energy.
No, what I was referring to were those things both less and more than friendship. There are many amiable aquaintances in life that can't truthfully called friends unless your definition of friendship is a shallow one, and there are those who find love in virtual communities.
Hell, my husband's best friend found his wife on a superhero mush. They've been married for seven years now. Considering he's from Virginia and she was in Arkansas, they would never have met, much less married were it not for a virtual community/game. My husband was a user on an old Atari BBS I used to run. We've been together for fifteen years this June. This kind of thing is more common than many think and it just goes to show exactly how real virtual communities actually are.
What's my point? Regardless of whether you choose to be a real part of an online community, in a game or in some other virtual setting, they happen to be a steadily growing and very important part of many people's lives. You can choose to be a drifter, but that does not invalidate the neighborhoods you pass through. And it doesn't require that you acknowledge that they're there. If someone chooses to mock what they either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge, that doesn't change anything but a few people's bloodpressure.
And oh yeah... Piirg, get bent. Your lack of trolling style is making me weary.
Originally posted by azhrarn Originally posted by IcoGames 'Friendship or otherwise' You honestly would make a true enemy in a game? I can understand friends; I've made many myself over the years playing. However, anything towards animosity I think is taking the issue too far./eyeroll And here we have a man who sees the glass half empty. It hadn't even occured to me that "otherwise" would be construed to mean enmity. I don't consider that to be a relationship, though in hindsight, maybe some people do. For me, enmity isn't a natural state and it takes some serious work to get me willing to expend the energy. No, what I was referring to were those things both less and more than friendship. There are many amiable aquaintances in life that can't truthfully called friends unless your definition of friendship is a shallow one, and there are those who find love in virtual communities. Hell, my husband's best friend found his wife on a superhero mush. They've been married for seven years now. Considering he's from Virginia and she was in Arkansas, they would never have met, much less married were it not for a virtual community/game. My husband was a user on an old Atari BBS I used to run. We've been together for fifteen years this June. This kind of thing is more common than many think and it just goes to show exactly how real virtual communities actually are. What's my point? Regardless of whether you choose to be a real part of an online community, in a game or in some other virtual setting, they happen to be a steadily growing and very important part of many people's lives. You can choose to be a drifter, but that does not invalidate the neighborhoods you pass through. And it doesn't require that you acknowledge that they're there. If someone chooses to mock what they either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge, that doesn't change anything but a few people's bloodpressure. And oh yeah... Piirg, get bent. Your lack of trolling style is making me weary.
I like everything you say azhrarn, what you had said and been saying in this entire thread. People need to understand is that a virtual community/game or world is as real as you make it. These games allow us to open our mind to adventure to explore and create worlds we all dreamed about. Also allows us to create ourselves in a world aka a shaman, warrior or a creature handler. Its no different from watching a new movie and saying man, i wished i lived in a world like that with all the adventure and action that was in it. If you people can really sit there and say, "its just a game" ... well then you really never learned to dream about living in a fantasy/sci-fi world. To also say its wrong that people went that extra step and got more involved in the game then you did, dont fault them , fault yourself for not having an imagination. Remember this, a virtual community is no different then the one you live in.
Originally posted by pirrg To the original poster, try therapy, i hear it helps.Obsessing over a game isnt healthy, seriously.
Would you care to explain this statement ?
Especially i want you to explain to me please:
1. The difference between intersocial acting and a game obsession and how to recognize 2. The difference between intersocial acting in RL and in a community online 3. The things making an online community "unhealthy"
I know that you didnt said exactly what im asking for in #3, but it is what you meant.
Originally posted by pirrg To the original poster, try therapy, i hear it helps.
Obsessing over a game isnt healthy, seriously.
Would you care to explain this statement ?
Especially i want you to explain to me please:
1. The difference between intersocial acting and a game obsession and how to recognize 2. The difference between intersocial acting in RL and in a community online 3. The things making an online community "unhealthy"
I know that you didnt said exactly what im asking for in #3, but it is what you meant.
I am excited to read your deeper view on that.
This guy is a fanboi/troll just out to get some attention. Please don't feel trolls.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Originally posted by njdevi66 If you people can really sit there and say, "its just a game" ... well then you really never learned to dream about living in a fantasy/sci-fi world. To also say its wrong that people went that extra step and got more involved in the game then you did, dont fault them , fault yourself for not having an imagination. Remember this, a virtual community is no different then the one you live in.
Imagination doesn't equate to neurosis.
Azhram, Basically, you're blaming SOE/LA for your abandonment issues.
By and large, the people you interact with in mmos are transient. New games come on the market, people get tired of playing, external issues come up, etc. How could you set the expectation that SWG would've lasted forever?
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by MeFartsSmell I agree with your ideas of peoples feelings about this and why this game is different due to the fact it is and MMO, and I see why people feel so strongly about this game, however why in the world would anyone in there right mind allow themselves to get wraped up in a situation were your feelings and you relationship as one person said your second life is in control of a company like any other company that bases all its desicions on making more money no matter what it takes or what it does. To honestly think that a company cares what people thinks is silly, SOE can go out and make a game tommorow and they will sell it and it will do well. And I never said that you people have mental problems what I said was that it was unbalanced to put yourself in a situation were if you get connected to these MMO so easily and it turns into a second life for you, you are being unbalanced to let yourself get into that situation when a company has the control to do as they please.
Me... Even though my first impression of you was a bad one, since you are making mature posts now, I'll address you as such.
Although it would be preposterous for me to attempt to speak for someone else. I know that I, and I'm pretty sure azhran and others that have posted in this thread, don't feel that our lives (or second lives for that matter) are in the control of a company that made a game. Like I replied to azhran initially... My life is not empty by any means. I have a home, a wife, a beautiful baby boy, a job, etc... My life is good. Sure it could be better, but that's what keeps be going. To get better as a person and to provide a better life for my family.
But my life is also stressful and mundane. And, like most people, I needed an escape, a vice of some sorts. Something to center myself and forget about next morning's commute, or the bills that need to get paid next month or if the baby needs a flu shot next week, at least for a little while. Now, some people resort to things that can be considered "bad" like drinking, smoking or doing drugs. Others go for things that can be considered "good" like reading, writing or heck.. even doing crossword puzzles. I went for something down the middle, not too good and not too bad. Computer games focusing on MMOs.
Now when I played UO, I played it for 3 years and I loved it. Sometimes it pissed me off to get PKed or when my horse got "untamed", but always loved it. Same goes EQ which I played for even longer. And even though I loved those games and tried others in between, once I quit them I only looked back with fondness and gratitude for the good times.
But when I found out about SWG, that was love at first sight. "You mean to tell me that I can now be someone on those movies that I saw when I was a kid and enthralled me so?" I thought to myself. "I'll be playing that game for years and years to come." And it was with that hope that I waited until the game was released. SWG went to beta and then gold and I was there. I was part of the Star Wars Universe.
I was happy and all in my home were happy. My wife got to keep me at home, and I was entertained. With the sole side effect of going to sleep a little later than usual, which is not bad when all things are considered.
But later on all changed. SOE suddenly decided that they needed more money. And to do that they would need to change the game I BOUGHT AND PAID A MONTHLY FEE into something else. Not release another game, not open new servers with different mechanics, but change the game formula into something completely different. And at first I didn't care, I mean, if they are doing a Combat Upgrade, why should my experience be affected if I'm a crafter? But when reality set in, it turns out that they couldn't change the game a few aspects of the game, they changed it ALL! Little by little my "ultimate game" was changed and I was pushed out of it. The game turned out into something that, even though it might have it's merits and might be a "successful" formula, it's a game I WOULDN'T have bought had it come out of the box like this. To put it simply, I was kicked out of Star Wars Galaxies!
That's why I can't let go so easily. That's why I can't look back with fond memories. I don't have any mental illness, need therapy or "unbalanced". I'm just a little jaded that something I wanted and had, was taken from me to be given to some other demographic. Eventually I know I'll let go and walk away. But not until I'm ready.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Hmm, this is an interesting thread. There are a number of reasons why there is still an uproar against SOE. The main one is we are mourning. And a part of mourning is shock.
Community has been mentioned, but maybe the term tribalism should be used. We as human beings seek company and a sense of belonging. For some church groups, others the type of music they have in common, the list goes on. For us it's Star Wars, and secondly gaming. I can drop any number of quotes here or ingame when i played, and people got it. We shared a common bond. Not to say we all got on, every guild can tell a story of expulsion. And as a tribe, we built some thing. An act of creation.
I, in the game, was a part of a universal creation shared with other players. And when it was destroyed, (something that we put time, effort and imagination into) we had a part of us ripped away. Even though we mourn its passing, we are also aware that it is not beyond the realm of possiblity that it may be returned to us, even if we have to rebuild it from the ground up.
I for one miss my tribe, within that i miss my guild, i miss my chars, my house, the unique creation i made that added to the whole. No other MMO will take it's place because it's NOT Star Wars. No other game will let me create a Darth Vader room, no other game will allow my Armorsmith to mourn the passing of his wife who died on Alderaan and suffer mental disorders that the guild who rely on him are mostly unaware of. No other game will let me twat Stormtroopers while waiting for a friend or a trader with some nice goods for me. This game was vast, open to possibilites and virtually anything could be done.(the dancers cage in our cantina springs to mind).
A company took this away from us because they want more money and power, and their selfishness needs to be addressed. They destroyed our creation, they broke our hearts and they should be held accountable. Many would say that the game was not ready when it came out. It was the players that made the game. (ALL of them, not just the jedi, like the claims i keep reading). And the players deserve better.
Originally posted by ClaudeFR Originally posted by pirrg To the original poster, try therapy, i hear it helps.Obsessing over a game isnt healthy, seriously.
Would you care to explain this statement ?
Especially i want you to explain to me please:
1. The difference between intersocial acting and a game obsession and how to recognize 2. The difference between intersocial acting in RL and in a community online 3. The things making an online community "unhealthy"
I know that you didnt said exactly what im asking for in #3, but it is what you meant.
I am excited to read your deeper view on that.
Heres my deeper view on the subject at hand. Are you ready? Here it comes:
Its just a game.
_____________________ I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
Sure it is just a game, but when you buy something or pay for something, you expect it to be something you will be able to enjoy having in your posession.
We who played SWG had expectations that I don't feel were far fetched. Other big name games meet the expectations of its subscribers. We also thought there were be a certain level of quality...it's Lucas Arts, one the entertainment world's biggest names.
I too enjoyed the game to the degree that I feel something is now missing in my life. Other games don't fill that void. I don't wish to find something to waste away days and nights, it's a hobby to enjoy when other hobbies have grown boring and old to me.
There are many of us that have feelings of great disappointment with SOE and how they have treated it veteran swg subscribers. As other have said, community playerd a big part in my game enjoyment and when the developers kept making changes and ignoring the community, those friends and guilds left the game-leaving behind many abandoned cities and homes.
You know, pirrg, I am ever so grateful that you are only capable of 2 sentences with a space between them. Over 800 times, you seemingly follow the same pattern of trolling. Always ends with something about it being a game or the like.
Why am I grateful? Because I don't think I could stand listening to troll drivel for more than the three seconds it takes to ignore what you say. Try for once, just once to actually contribute to etiher side of the thread. Unconstipate your mind and typing skills for just one post.
Originally posted by digriz Hmm, this is an interesting thread. There are a number of reasons why there is still an uproar against SOE. The main one is we are mourning. And a part of mourning is shock. Community has been mentioned, but maybe the term tribalism should be used. We as human beings seek company and a sense of belonging. For some church groups, others the type of music they have in common, the list goes on. For us it's Star Wars, and secondly gaming. I can drop any number of quotes here or ingame when i played, and people got it. We shared a common bond. Not to say we all got on, every guild can tell a story of expulsion. And as a tribe, we built some thing. An act of creation. I, in the game, was a part of a universal creation shared with other players. And when it was destroyed, (something that we put time, effort and imagination into) we had a part of us ripped away. Even though we mourn its passing, we are also aware that it is not beyond the realm of possiblity that it may be returned to us, even if we have to rebuild it from the ground up. I for one miss my tribe, within that i miss my guild, i miss my chars, my house, the unique creation i made that added to the whole. No other MMO will take it's place because it's NOT Star Wars. No other game will let me create a Darth Vader room, no other game will allow my Armorsmith to mourn the passing of his wife who died on Alderaan and suffer mental disorders that the guild who rely on him are mostly unaware of. No other game will let me twat Stormtroopers while waiting for a friend or a trader with some nice goods for me. This game was vast, open to possibilites and virtually anything could be done.(the dancers cage in our cantina springs to mind). A company took this away from us because they want more money and power, and their selfishness needs to be addressed. They destroyed our creation, they broke our hearts and they should be held accountable. Many would say that the game was not ready when it came out. It was the players that made the game. (ALL of them, not just the jedi, like the claims i keep reading). And the players deserve better.
Originally posted by azhrarn I know this because I see it in others, here and elsewhere. How can something that was apparently "not good enough" leave such a large hole in so many people's lives when it was taken away? Can anyone explain this?
For me it's like this. If I see a gizmo at the store and I pay $100 for it, and that gizmo works as advertised but I get bored of it after a couple of weeks, then I am not very slighted. On the other hand, if someone sold me widget for $5, and I brought it home and found out it dosen't work at all like the person said, I am pissed beyond belief. This is sort of what happened with SWG for me.
Also, anything I did like with the game was ruined little by little as SOE shafted each and every one of us. So, I got ripped off instead of bored. I bought a product and SOE took my monthly fee and ruined the game instead of using it to fix the game.
To top it off, this was a game that should have been a haven for all of the sci-fi geeks. This game should have given that niche a place to call home and have fun. Instead they crushed the dreams of having a nice mainstream sci-fi MMO for alot of people and that was one of the things that left me bitter. You think the Star Wars universe would be safe, but alas it was just a way to take my money and have nothing to show for it. I felt betrayed by SOE after playing this game and that's the kicker. It's like that Ex you caught screwing your best friend. Here you are with Star Wars enjoying a wonderful relationship and the next thing you know SOE is screwing it hardcore right in front of your eyes. You do a double take and Star Wars seems to be enjoying it!
Geez I am ranting now, but really, none of these other games left you feeling betrayed is my guess. I know that's why I am so pissed about SWG myself. NGE stood for Now Game Elsewhere.
True Neutral Half-Elf Ranger Mage Follower Of Silvanus
I think that for me friendships online are different from an MMO, I think mostly becuase I do use online for talking to friends when overseas working, or sometimes I meet some one overseas while working that you strike up a friendship with, and its a good way to keep in touch. However I am also not a person who will do chat lines, I am not into that sort of thing and I dont got time for that sort of thing either, for me friends that I have online which are not a huge amount, are friends that I met in the real world first and then keep in touch through online. If you are into chat lines and dont mind making friends that way, then I can see an MMO as being able to be a strike up a friendship situation. And to be honest with everyone I always seen this as just a game and thats it, for me SWG was just a relaxing past time, I only played a few hours a week on it. So me I guess it would have a different feeling to it then most others, and as far as SOE is concerned to be honest I have seen a lot of good moral ethics from many a company and to me what SOE has done, first I want to point out that I can see why what SOE will bother some people, but to me its really no big deal what they did, I have seen a lot worse done then what SOE has done. So in short it just affects people in different ways.
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
I hear what Azhrarn and Claude are saying. I have to say also that I understand, and find it very understandable, why the game seems like more than a mere game. This game especially was good in making one feel like they could live a whole and complete alternative life online. I think it shows that we are indeed human, seeking out some genuine experience, without all the formality, gravitas, and dehumanization in modern society.
But I get the feeling that we who feel strongly about what we had together make the mistake of rationalizing and romanticizing the strength, genuineness, and safety of that online community we had in SWG. For as many players who say they "hooked up" with a husband, wife, or good friend through SWG, there are just as many who were shocked, angered, and upset that the reality of the "SWG other," did not measure up to the individual perception of the "SWG other."
We'll probably never hear of the horror stories in this online soap opera we all shared, but we can probably put together some scenarios that I'm almost positive showed up in more than a few cases.
I can imagine a man who plays a dancer, who plays it so well that some other man imagines a beautiful and sensual female behind the avatar. Now of course, the man who plays the dancer should be tippped and treated with regard to how well they can portray the fantasy. Yet to the ones who see the dancer, the feelings are real, and the desire to actually experience the virtual experience. The problem is, it is impossible to ever experience this in reality, because the real person is NOT the virtual person, and never can, or will be.
I can imagine a woman who talks with a compassionate and understanding Jedi. She tries to get to know the person behind the avatar, only to discover that he is physically repulsive to her, and regrets ever confiding in him in the first place, because he is starting to pine for her.
I can imagine a 13 year old boy, who finds out his guild leader is going to be at his hometown "on business," and asks for him to meet him after school to get pizza. The man has pedophilic tastes, and starts touching and taking pictures of the boy.
I think it was Claude who wondered what constitutes healthy interpersonal relationships, from bad obsessions. I say that the two cannot be distinguished in terms of the weight of the feelings one feels. It is determined by luck, and whether or not the object of virtual closeness measures up to the virtual expectation when our "veil of ignorance" is lifted, and we see the person for who they truly are.
The problem with virtual sociability, is that its too easy to mistake fantasy for reality. I'm not saying this to be hurtful to the OP, or Claude, because I'm just as suseptable to it as you both are, and anyone is.
In fact, its the reason we enter online games in the first place. We want to be deceived, like watching a good movie, or a stageplay. We want to believe that Mon Calamari and Rodians are real. We want to believe that the dancer is a real dancer who wishes to be the object of our desire. We want to believe the jedi is a knight in shining armor. We want to believe our guild members are our friends who will never hurt us.
But its a lie, Claude. A lie that sometimes turns out well, but has the potential to turn out really bad.
Its good if we have a career, a family, and stability in our real lives. I've seen people who are addicted to illegal narcotics say that as well, and it is a justification mechanism as to why its not a problem. But I don't think that the problem goes away, just because we are stable in our real lives. And I think this IS a problem for many of us, myself included.
I personally have come to the conclusion that its not particularly safe, or healthy, to vest too much emotional attachment to an online community, and especially an MMO community. Because in the end, its not real, and it distracts us from pursuing real opportunities for closeness. We substitute Robert Putnam's "social capital," for this "virtual capital" that satisfies the immediate need for a place in the world, but doesn't satisfy it long term.
But unlike the ones like M.F.S, and those others who say that they personally are so much more sane than us, and condemn us for our emotional ties to SWG, I wonder if they can even have any emotional ties at all. This isn't a problem that shows us as subhuman. It is a problem that shows us to be all too human. However, I do think it IS a problem we need to all work on.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I am rereading it now very carefully, then quoting.
There a few paragraphs in, which took me a bit to read over and over again. This might be language problem in the first place, but i want to follow your thoughts behind the wording, to make sure i understand what you are saying, so expect me back in a few...
[quote]Originally posted by Beatnik59 [b] We'll probably never hear of the horror stories in this online soap opera we all shared, but we can probably put together some scenarios that I'm almost positive showed up in more than a few cases. [/quote]
I cant tell you a few, so iam familar with the dark side as well.
I can imagine a man who plays a dancer, who plays it so well that some other man imagines a beautiful and sensual female behind the avatar. Now of course, the man who plays the dancer should be tippped and treated with regard to how well they can portray the fantasy. Yet to the ones who see the dancer, the feelings are real, and the desire to actually experience the virtual experience.
We need to differ here: There are NO "virtual emotions". There are "controlled" emotions, but no virtuals. Emotions are something you feel, they are real, so there is no difference HOW to experience emotions. There is a difference WHY you feel certain emotions.
Ive put "controlled emotions" in quotes because there are no "controlled emotions". The way/situation/trigger leading to emotions can be controlled, but not the emotion itself.
You can control yourself to avoid certain situation, walk away, close your ears and eyes. You do this for the very reason because you KNOW you cant control the emotion itself, thats why you try to control the "path" leading to certain emotions.
This is a key to understand the above situation: The male dancer is not "faking" emotions, he is controlling the situation leading to the emotions. This is, why some people CAN actually do such "gameplay" and others not.
If you do such gameplay, you need to be "that way" in reallife too.
What i say is, you should not think you could "play some emotions" in game when you dont feel the same in real too.
If you do, you dont HAVE the emotion anyway, but then you PRETEND to do so, to "trick" the other player - in a controlled situation.
I was in such situation and figured it pretty quick, made use of my knowledge and turned it around, played it "against" the player. How you say...."played on his field but on my terms without letting him know".
He was PRETTY done when it was over and quit the game. It was emotional to heavy to/for him. I say, "dont play with fire if you cant stand the heat".
Many dont even KNOW, what they are doing sometimes...
And sometimes i dont get peeps thinking this "is fun".... /sigh
Originally posted by Beatnik59 The problem is, it is impossible to ever experience this in reality, because the real person is NOT the virtual person, and never can, or will be.
Hmmm....i think the definition of "reality" is not clear here. Of course something like this could and did happen in reality already.
Take phone calls, take some1 dressing up and acting appropiate, take letters etc. So where is reality
I was the strange roleplayer in this game, I loved it so much for it. For a very long time, I was the frightened ranger outside of Anchorhead who was trying to create New Anchorhead but was scared of the wild so I didn't want to go too far away from the real city. So, I had a little robot mayor for New Anchorhead, and in a short amount of time, my temporary town (it was created with my ranger survival kits) had a few people who used to hang out with me, warning everyone who came near about the evils of the established Anchorhead.
We brightened the days of a lot of people. My other character was Cellphone Guy who used to go into the middle of huge battles and say "Can you hear me now?" /pause "Good!" I used to have people contacting me that he was their favorite player in the game.
THAT was the old SWG. You can't even do any of that anymore and have it work within the system they have running now. There aren't even people who hang around long enough to communicate with you. They turned it into a fps environment, and it's the opposite of what it once was.
It was a wonderful experiment. Unfortunately, they went the wrong direction with it.
For me it was a lot about this character I made in this cool world they gave me. He was indeed an alter-ego, which means that part of me died when he did. He said things, did things, looked a certain way. He wasn't exactly me, he was Osyrus Torgan, a shard of me. It was an outlet of my personality that got closed rather abruptly, so yeah, there's a bit of grief there. I got to play this cool character. He was a Smuggler, he hung out in dirty bars and sliced weapons for money. He had space ships, he became a Jedi. Everyday I'd log in and he'd have a new story to tell me. It's like when you read a book with great character development and at the end the characters die. It's perfectly normal to feel grief about it, that's what it's designed to do. It was comforting to know that no matter what kind of shit happend to me during the day, I could come home and become someone else for a little while, who didn't have work stress, bills to pay, or any other number of daily aggrivations we all face. He could say "Fuck it", which, I think, is what we'd all love to say but can't . I dunno, I'm not going through withdrawl or anything, I just seriously miss that guy, like I miss an old friend who has moved away. I miss the adventures I had with him, I miss the friends I made with him. And yeah, I have a life, I've filled my SWG time with other more productive activities, I've been working hard on animating (if they aren't going to build a game I love, I'll do it myself damnit) which I go to school for. But I think I've still got the right to miss a very unique part of me that was taken away and not feel guilty about it.
Clause, you rule. The thread was always meant for random hijacking because the original question was one I think has much more than one answer, and each answer carries many implications which bear discussing.
I really enjoyed your answers to many of the questions raised by opponents of the online community phenomenon. And don't mind your english. It's better than my french and german, and that's a fact. At least I can understand most of what you're saying. The rest I can figure out through context
I'd like to point out that all of the perils brought up to condemn or reject online society are already dirty, unpleasant realities in real life. I've met real life men who, when they dressed as women were so pretty that many of my straight friends tried to get dates with them. I've known many people who have tried to either take advantage of or outright hurt either myself or one of my friends. And I can assure you, NO relationship is safe. Friends turn on friends in real life. People are often not who they present themselves to be. The medium used for the deception doesn't matter in the least.
I've been in the direct line of real life gunfire when I drove a friend to meet his prospective girlfriend and her exboyfriend took a few shots at us with a .45. True story. Life isn't safe. Everything you do carries with it some element of risk, no matter how careful and timid you may be in approaching it. While I'm neither suicidal nor masochistic, I refuse to close myself off from the world or from other people. I realize, being an intelligent and rational person, that such measures rarely ensure safety and nearly always garauntee loneliness and boredom. I don't much fancy either.
As for differentiating between real life and roleplay, I can tell you there are many who have difficulties distinguishing. This has been true since the days of paper and dice games. Again, the medium has no bearing on the "madness". The less emotionally stable a person is, the less that person can distinguish between reality and fantasy. I've worked with people who had never gamed in their lives that had this problem. Reality is difficult for many people to grasp these days, and I honestly think it's more "real life" society that has caused this than anything else.
We are raised being told that it is wrong to lie, to cheat, to steal or to do any number of equally reprehensible things and then enter the adult world already knowing that what we were told is only hypocricy -- that to succeed in life we need to do all of these things -- and that to be even socially acceptible, one must become a skillful liar. I don't think I need to tell anyone here that this isn't a healthy way to live. One is doomed to either fail and retain their integrity or succeed and be plauged by feelings of guilt and unworthiness -- and that is just the best case scenario. Many build astonishing fortresses of sociopathy and justifications around themselves, in effect becoming dead inside and unable to have healthy relationships. And this has been going on since before the internet became readily available in the late 80s and early 90s.
So what REAL justification can a person raise to condemn virtual society, when it is a tool that extends both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know and perhaps even like other people?
Why indeed? Why don't I just hit that cancel button now I've decided to leave? Because maybe, they might suddenly say oops! We hear you all, we're going to try to put back the game elements people loved most. We're going to make this a real living environment again, not just a MMO shooter/RPG hybrid. Yes!
Unlikely but, hey. I've been reading this thread, and Raph Koster's blog and links from that (I have in my head he has the secret answer to all of these questions).
I like that someone has brought up the issue of trust here and in another thread. This isn't merely about trust in a product. This is, you have invested in a virtual ego and someone has the ability to alter or take away altogether that virtual ego without apology.
I can play single player games alone or with my husband. We sort of share the controls, he controls the movement and I shoot anything that moves. He never complains that I scream when something jumps out. But we do get this ongoing tense blaming thing -why didn't you go over there? Did'nt you see that head hugger? Don't use all the bullets!
If I'm playing with a group online, people might be mad that I'm at the wrong spot or shooting the wrong monster, but I am blissfully unaware. I'm sort of reluctant to hook up the headset for DDO because then I'd hear people hollering at me
I have met such great people over time in SWG (even that fink Ico). I dunno, maybe hold out just a bit longer.
Comments
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
I'll discuss more in a moment, but ...
'Friendship or otherwise' You honestly would make a true enemy in a game? I can understand friends; I've made many myself over the years playing. However, anything towards animosity I think is taking the issue too far.
I've enjoyed the community of each game Ive played (yes, including WoW's). The reason I bother with mmos in the first place is to interact with other players, rather than a predictable AI. However, I'm not looking to forge any deep meaningful relationships; I'm there to enjoy a game. If friendships development out the experience, so be it.
I think some people take these games all too seriously.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
To the original poster, try therapy, i hear it helps.
Obsessing over a game isnt healthy, seriously.
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
/eyeroll
And here we have a man who sees the glass half empty. It hadn't even occured to me that "otherwise" would be construed to mean enmity. I don't consider that to be a relationship, though in hindsight, maybe some people do. For me, enmity isn't a natural state and it takes some serious work to get me willing to expend the energy.
No, what I was referring to were those things both less and more than friendship. There are many amiable aquaintances in life that can't truthfully called friends unless your definition of friendship is a shallow one, and there are those who find love in virtual communities.
Hell, my husband's best friend found his wife on a superhero mush. They've been married for seven years now. Considering he's from Virginia and she was in Arkansas, they would never have met, much less married were it not for a virtual community/game. My husband was a user on an old Atari BBS I used to run. We've been together for fifteen years this June. This kind of thing is more common than many think and it just goes to show exactly how real virtual communities actually are.
What's my point? Regardless of whether you choose to be a real part of an online community, in a game or in some other virtual setting, they happen to be a steadily growing and very important part of many people's lives. You can choose to be a drifter, but that does not invalidate the neighborhoods you pass through. And it doesn't require that you acknowledge that they're there. If someone chooses to mock what they either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge, that doesn't change anything but a few people's bloodpressure.
And oh yeah... Piirg, get bent. Your lack of trolling style is making me weary.
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
I like everything you say azhrarn, what you had said and been saying in this entire thread. People need to understand is that a virtual community/game or world is as real as you make it. These games allow us to open our mind to adventure to explore and create worlds we all dreamed about. Also allows us to create ourselves in a world aka a shaman, warrior or a creature handler. Its no different from watching a new movie and saying man, i wished i lived in a world like that with all the adventure and action that was in it. If you people can really sit there and say, "its just a game" ... well then you really never learned to dream about living in a fantasy/sci-fi world. To also say its wrong that people went that extra step and got more involved in the game then you did, dont fault them , fault yourself for not having an imagination. Remember this, a virtual community is no different then the one you live in.
Keep up the good fight ashrarn, im with ya
Would you care to explain this statement ?
Especially i want you to explain to me please:
1. The difference between intersocial acting and a game obsession and how to recognize
2. The difference between intersocial acting in RL and in a community online
3. The things making an online community "unhealthy"
I know that you didnt said exactly what im asking for in #3, but it is what you meant.
I am excited to read your deeper view on that.
Claude
Would you care to explain this statement ?
Especially i want you to explain to me please:
1. The difference between intersocial acting and a game obsession and how to recognize
2. The difference between intersocial acting in RL and in a community online
3. The things making an online community "unhealthy"
I know that you didnt said exactly what im asking for in #3, but it is what you meant.
I am excited to read your deeper view on that.
This guy is a fanboi/troll just out to get some attention. Please don't feel trolls.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Imagination doesn't equate to neurosis.
Azhram,
Basically, you're blaming SOE/LA for your abandonment issues.
By and large, the people you interact with in mmos are transient. New games come on the market, people get tired of playing, external issues come up, etc. How could you set the expectation that SWG would've lasted forever?
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Me... Even though my first impression of you was a bad one, since you are making mature posts now, I'll address you as such.
Although it would be preposterous for me to attempt to speak for someone else. I know that I, and I'm pretty sure azhran and others that have posted in this thread, don't feel that our lives (or second lives for that matter) are in the control of a company that made a game. Like I replied to azhran initially... My life is not empty by any means. I have a home, a wife, a beautiful baby boy, a job, etc... My life is good. Sure it could be better, but that's what keeps be going. To get better as a person and to provide a better life for my family.
But my life is also stressful and mundane. And, like most people, I needed an escape, a vice of some sorts. Something to center myself and forget about next morning's commute, or the bills that need to get paid next month or if the baby needs a flu shot next week, at least for a little while. Now, some people resort to things that can be considered "bad" like drinking, smoking or doing drugs. Others go for things that can be considered "good" like reading, writing or heck.. even doing crossword puzzles. I went for something down the middle, not too good and not too bad. Computer games focusing on MMOs.
Now when I played UO, I played it for 3 years and I loved it. Sometimes it pissed me off to get PKed or when my horse got "untamed", but always loved it. Same goes EQ which I played for even longer. And even though I loved those games and tried others in between, once I quit them I only looked back with fondness and gratitude for the good times.
But when I found out about SWG, that was love at first sight. "You mean to tell me that I can now be someone on those movies that I saw when I was a kid and enthralled me so?" I thought to myself. "I'll be playing that game for years and years to come." And it was with that hope that I waited until the game was released. SWG went to beta and then gold and I was there. I was part of the Star Wars Universe.
I was happy and all in my home were happy. My wife got to keep me at home, and I was entertained. With the sole side effect of going to sleep a little later than usual, which is not bad when all things are considered.
But later on all changed. SOE suddenly decided that they needed more money. And to do that they would need to change the game I BOUGHT AND PAID A MONTHLY FEE into something else. Not release another game, not open new servers with different mechanics, but change the game formula into something completely different. And at first I didn't care, I mean, if they are doing a Combat Upgrade, why should my experience be affected if I'm a crafter? But when reality set in, it turns out that they couldn't change the game a few aspects of the game, they changed it ALL! Little by little my "ultimate game" was changed and I was pushed out of it. The game turned out into something that, even though it might have it's merits and might be a "successful" formula, it's a game I WOULDN'T have bought had it come out of the box like this. To put it simply, I was kicked out of Star Wars Galaxies!
That's why I can't let go so easily. That's why I can't look back with fond memories. I don't have any mental illness, need therapy or "unbalanced". I'm just a little jaded that something I wanted and had, was taken from me to be given to some other demographic. Eventually I know I'll let go and walk away. But not until I'm ready.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Hmm, this is an interesting thread. There are a number of reasons why there is still an uproar against SOE. The main one is we are mourning. And a part of mourning is shock.
Community has been mentioned, but maybe the term tribalism should be used. We as human beings seek company and a sense of belonging. For some church groups, others the type of music they have in common, the list goes on. For us it's Star Wars, and secondly gaming. I can drop any number of quotes here or ingame when i played, and people got it. We shared a common bond. Not to say we all got on, every guild can tell a story of expulsion. And as a tribe, we built some thing. An act of creation.
I, in the game, was a part of a universal creation shared with other players. And when it was destroyed, (something that we put time, effort and imagination into) we had a part of us ripped away. Even though we mourn its passing, we are also aware that it is not beyond the realm of possiblity that it may be returned to us, even if we have to rebuild it from the ground up.
I for one miss my tribe, within that i miss my guild, i miss my chars, my house, the unique creation i made that added to the whole. No other MMO will take it's place because it's NOT Star Wars. No other game will let me create a Darth Vader room, no other game will allow my Armorsmith to mourn the passing of his wife who died on Alderaan and suffer mental disorders that the guild who rely on him are mostly unaware of. No other game will let me twat Stormtroopers while waiting for a friend or a trader with some nice goods for me. This game was vast, open to possibilites and virtually anything could be done.(the dancers cage in our cantina springs to mind).
A company took this away from us because they want more money and power, and their selfishness needs to be addressed. They destroyed our creation, they broke our hearts and they should be held accountable. Many would say that the game was not ready when it came out. It was the players that made the game. (ALL of them, not just the jedi, like the claims i keep reading). And the players deserve better.
Roll on the Emu.
Would you care to explain this statement ?
Especially i want you to explain to me please:
1. The difference between intersocial acting and a game obsession and how to recognize
2. The difference between intersocial acting in RL and in a community online
3. The things making an online community "unhealthy"
I know that you didnt said exactly what im asking for in #3, but it is what you meant.
I am excited to read your deeper view on that.
Heres my deeper view on the subject at hand. Are you ready? Here it comes:
Its just a game.
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
Would you care to explain this statement ?
...
I am excited to read your deeper view on that.
Heres my deeper view on the subject at hand. Are you ready? Here it comes:
Its just a game.
Translation = "I'm just a troll."
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Sure it is just a game, but when you buy something or pay for something, you expect it to be something you will be able to enjoy having in your posession.
We who played SWG had expectations that I don't feel were far fetched. Other big name games meet the expectations of its subscribers. We also thought there were be a certain level of quality...it's Lucas Arts, one the entertainment world's biggest names.
I too enjoyed the game to the degree that I feel something is now missing in my life. Other games don't fill that void. I don't wish to find something to waste away days and nights, it's a hobby to enjoy when other hobbies have grown boring and old to me.
There are many of us that have feelings of great disappointment with SOE and how they have treated it veteran swg subscribers. As other have said, community playerd a big part in my game enjoyment and when the developers kept making changes and ignoring the community, those friends and guilds left the game-leaving behind many abandoned cities and homes.
You know, pirrg, I am ever so grateful that you are only capable of 2 sentences with a space between them. Over 800 times, you seemingly follow the same pattern of trolling. Always ends with something about it being a game or the like.
Why am I grateful? Because I don't think I could stand listening to troll drivel for more than the three seconds it takes to ignore what you say. Try for once, just once to actually contribute to etiher side of the thread. Unconstipate your mind and typing skills for just one post.
Just a thought.
Well said my friend, well said.
For me it's like this. If I see a gizmo at the store and I pay $100 for it, and that gizmo works as advertised but I get bored of it after a couple of weeks, then I am not very slighted. On the other hand, if someone sold me widget for $5, and I brought it home and found out it dosen't work at all like the person said, I am pissed beyond belief. This is sort of what happened with SWG for me.
Also, anything I did like with the game was ruined little by little as SOE shafted each and every one of us. So, I got ripped off instead of bored. I bought a product and SOE took my monthly fee and ruined the game instead of using it to fix the game.
To top it off, this was a game that should have been a haven for all of the sci-fi geeks. This game should have given that niche a place to call home and have fun. Instead they crushed the dreams of having a nice mainstream sci-fi MMO for alot of people and that was one of the things that left me bitter. You think the Star Wars universe would be safe, but alas it was just a way to take my money and have nothing to show for it. I felt betrayed by SOE after playing this game and that's the kicker. It's like that Ex you caught screwing your best friend. Here you are with Star Wars enjoying a wonderful relationship and the next thing you know SOE is screwing it hardcore right in front of your eyes. You do a double take and Star Wars seems to be enjoying it!
Geez I am ranting now, but really, none of these other games left you feeling betrayed is my guess. I know that's why I am so pissed about SWG myself. NGE stood for Now Game Elsewhere.
True Neutral Half-Elf Ranger Mage
Follower Of Silvanus
Kings of Chaos! Free to play! Great PvP!
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
This is a good thread, and an important thread.
I hear what Azhrarn and Claude are saying. I have to say also that I understand, and find it very understandable, why the game seems like more than a mere game. This game especially was good in making one feel like they could live a whole and complete alternative life online. I think it shows that we are indeed human, seeking out some genuine experience, without all the formality, gravitas, and dehumanization in modern society.
But I get the feeling that we who feel strongly about what we had together make the mistake of rationalizing and romanticizing the strength, genuineness, and safety of that online community we had in SWG. For as many players who say they "hooked up" with a husband, wife, or good friend through SWG, there are just as many who were shocked, angered, and upset that the reality of the "SWG other," did not measure up to the individual perception of the "SWG other."
We'll probably never hear of the horror stories in this online soap opera we all shared, but we can probably put together some scenarios that I'm almost positive showed up in more than a few cases.
I can imagine a man who plays a dancer, who plays it so well that some other man imagines a beautiful and sensual female behind the avatar. Now of course, the man who plays the dancer should be tippped and treated with regard to how well they can portray the fantasy. Yet to the ones who see the dancer, the feelings are real, and the desire to actually experience the virtual experience. The problem is, it is impossible to ever experience this in reality, because the real person is NOT the virtual person, and never can, or will be.
I can imagine a woman who talks with a compassionate and understanding Jedi. She tries to get to know the person behind the avatar, only to discover that he is physically repulsive to her, and regrets ever confiding in him in the first place, because he is starting to pine for her.
I can imagine a 13 year old boy, who finds out his guild leader is going to be at his hometown "on business," and asks for him to meet him after school to get pizza. The man has pedophilic tastes, and starts touching and taking pictures of the boy.
I think it was Claude who wondered what constitutes healthy interpersonal relationships, from bad obsessions. I say that the two cannot be distinguished in terms of the weight of the feelings one feels. It is determined by luck, and whether or not the object of virtual closeness measures up to the virtual expectation when our "veil of ignorance" is lifted, and we see the person for who they truly are.
The problem with virtual sociability, is that its too easy to mistake fantasy for reality. I'm not saying this to be hurtful to the OP, or Claude, because I'm just as suseptable to it as you both are, and anyone is.
In fact, its the reason we enter online games in the first place. We want to be deceived, like watching a good movie, or a stageplay. We want to believe that Mon Calamari and Rodians are real. We want to believe that the dancer is a real dancer who wishes to be the object of our desire. We want to believe the jedi is a knight in shining armor. We want to believe our guild members are our friends who will never hurt us.
But its a lie, Claude. A lie that sometimes turns out well, but has the potential to turn out really bad.
Its good if we have a career, a family, and stability in our real lives. I've seen people who are addicted to illegal narcotics say that as well, and it is a justification mechanism as to why its not a problem. But I don't think that the problem goes away, just because we are stable in our real lives. And I think this IS a problem for many of us, myself included.
I personally have come to the conclusion that its not particularly safe, or healthy, to vest too much emotional attachment to an online community, and especially an MMO community. Because in the end, its not real, and it distracts us from pursuing real opportunities for closeness. We substitute Robert Putnam's "social capital," for this "virtual capital" that satisfies the immediate need for a place in the world, but doesn't satisfy it long term.
But unlike the ones like M.F.S, and those others who say that they personally are so much more sane than us, and condemn us for our emotional ties to SWG, I wonder if they can even have any emotional ties at all. This isn't a problem that shows us as subhuman. It is a problem that shows us to be all too human. However, I do think it IS a problem we need to all work on.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
That was a VERY nice and extremely good posting.
I am rereading it now very carefully, then quoting.
There a few paragraphs in, which took me a bit to read over and over again.
This might be language problem in the first place, but i want to follow your thoughts behind the wording, to make sure i understand what you are saying, so expect me back in a few...
Claude
[quote]Originally posted by Beatnik59
[b]
We'll probably never hear of the horror stories in this online soap opera we all shared, but we can probably put together some scenarios that I'm almost positive showed up in more than a few cases.
[/quote]
I cant tell you a few, so iam familar with the dark side as well.
We need to differ here:
There are NO "virtual emotions". There are "controlled" emotions, but no virtuals.
Emotions are something you feel, they are real, so there is no difference HOW to experience emotions. There is a difference WHY you feel certain emotions.
Ive put "controlled emotions" in quotes because there are no "controlled emotions".
The way/situation/trigger leading to emotions can be controlled, but not the emotion itself.
You can control yourself to avoid certain situation, walk away, close your ears and eyes. You do this for the very reason because you KNOW you cant control the emotion itself, thats why you try to control the "path" leading to certain emotions.
This is a key to understand the above situation:
The male dancer is not "faking" emotions, he is controlling the situation leading to the emotions. This is, why some people CAN actually do such "gameplay" and others not.
If you do such gameplay, you need to be "that way" in reallife too.
What i say is, you should not think you could "play some emotions" in game when you dont feel the same in real too.
If you do, you dont HAVE the emotion anyway, but then you PRETEND to do so, to "trick" the other player - in a controlled situation.
I was in such situation and figured it pretty quick, made use of my knowledge and turned it around, played it "against" the player. How you say...."played on his field but on my terms without letting him know".
He was PRETTY done when it was over and quit the game. It was emotional to heavy to/for him. I say, "dont play with fire if you cant stand the heat".
Many dont even KNOW, what they are doing sometimes...
And sometimes i dont get peeps thinking this "is fun".... /sigh
Hmmm....i think the definition of "reality" is not clear here.
Of course something like this could and did happen in reality already.
Take phone calls, take some1 dressing up and acting appropiate, take letters etc.
So where is reality
Claude
I was the strange roleplayer in this game, I loved it so much for it. For a very long time, I was the frightened ranger outside of Anchorhead who was trying to create New Anchorhead but was scared of the wild so I didn't want to go too far away from the real city. So, I had a little robot mayor for New Anchorhead, and in a short amount of time, my temporary town (it was created with my ranger survival kits) had a few people who used to hang out with me, warning everyone who came near about the evils of the established Anchorhead.
We brightened the days of a lot of people. My other character was Cellphone Guy who used to go into the middle of huge battles and say "Can you hear me now?" /pause "Good!" I used to have people contacting me that he was their favorite player in the game.
THAT was the old SWG. You can't even do any of that anymore and have it work within the system they have running now. There aren't even people who hang around long enough to communicate with you. They turned it into a fps environment, and it's the opposite of what it once was.
It was a wonderful experiment. Unfortunately, they went the wrong direction with it.
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
For me it was a lot about this character I made in this cool world they gave me. He was indeed an alter-ego, which means that part of me died when he did. He said things, did things, looked a certain way. He wasn't exactly me, he was Osyrus Torgan, a shard of me. It was an outlet of my personality that got closed rather abruptly, so yeah, there's a bit of grief there. I got to play this cool character. He was a Smuggler, he hung out in dirty bars and sliced weapons for money. He had space ships, he became a Jedi. Everyday I'd log in and he'd have a new story to tell me. It's like when you read a book with great character development and at the end the characters die. It's perfectly normal to feel grief about it, that's what it's designed to do. It was comforting to know that no matter what kind of shit happend to me during the day, I could come home and become someone else for a little while, who didn't have work stress, bills to pay, or any other number of daily aggrivations we all face. He could say "Fuck it", which, I think, is what we'd all love to say but can't
.
I dunno, I'm not going through withdrawl or anything, I just seriously miss that guy, like I miss an old friend who has moved away. I miss the adventures I had with him, I miss the friends I made with him. And yeah, I have a life, I've filled my SWG time with other more productive activities, I've been working hard on animating (if they aren't going to build a game I love, I'll do it myself damnit) which I go to school for. But I think I've still got the right to miss a very unique part of me that was taken away and not feel guilty about it.
The Millenium Lee
Clause, you rule. The thread was always meant for random hijacking because the original question was one I think has much more than one answer, and each answer carries many implications which bear discussing.
I really enjoyed your answers to many of the questions raised by opponents of the online community phenomenon. And don't mind your english. It's better than my french and german, and that's a fact. At least I can understand most of what you're saying. The rest I can figure out through context
I'd like to point out that all of the perils brought up to condemn or reject online society are already dirty, unpleasant realities in real life. I've met real life men who, when they dressed as women were so pretty that many of my straight friends tried to get dates with them. I've known many people who have tried to either take advantage of or outright hurt either myself or one of my friends. And I can assure you, NO relationship is safe. Friends turn on friends in real life. People are often not who they present themselves to be. The medium used for the deception doesn't matter in the least.
I've been in the direct line of real life gunfire when I drove a friend to meet his prospective girlfriend and her exboyfriend took a few shots at us with a .45. True story. Life isn't safe. Everything you do carries with it some element of risk, no matter how careful and timid you may be in approaching it. While I'm neither suicidal nor masochistic, I refuse to close myself off from the world or from other people. I realize, being an intelligent and rational person, that such measures rarely ensure safety and nearly always garauntee loneliness and boredom. I don't much fancy either.
As for differentiating between real life and roleplay, I can tell you there are many who have difficulties distinguishing. This has been true since the days of paper and dice games. Again, the medium has no bearing on the "madness". The less emotionally stable a person is, the less that person can distinguish between reality and fantasy. I've worked with people who had never gamed in their lives that had this problem. Reality is difficult for many people to grasp these days, and I honestly think it's more "real life" society that has caused this than anything else.
We are raised being told that it is wrong to lie, to cheat, to steal or to do any number of equally reprehensible things and then enter the adult world already knowing that what we were told is only hypocricy -- that to succeed in life we need to do all of these things -- and that to be even socially acceptible, one must become a skillful liar. I don't think I need to tell anyone here that this isn't a healthy way to live. One is doomed to either fail and retain their integrity or succeed and be plauged by feelings of guilt and unworthiness -- and that is just the best case scenario. Many build astonishing fortresses of sociopathy and justifications around themselves, in effect becoming dead inside and unable to have healthy relationships. And this has been going on since before the internet became readily available in the late 80s and early 90s.
So what REAL justification can a person raise to condemn virtual society, when it is a tool that extends both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know and perhaps even like other people?
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
Why indeed? Why don't I just hit that cancel button now I've decided to leave? Because maybe, they might suddenly say oops! We hear you all, we're going to try to put back the game elements people loved most. We're going to make this a real living environment again, not just a MMO shooter/RPG hybrid. Yes!
Unlikely but, hey. I've been reading this thread, and Raph Koster's blog and links from that (I have in my head he has the secret answer to all of these questions).
I like that someone has brought up the issue of trust here and in another thread. This isn't merely about trust in a product. This is, you have invested in a virtual ego and someone has the ability to alter or take away altogether that virtual ego without apology.
I can play single player games alone or with my husband. We sort of share the controls, he controls the movement and I shoot anything that moves. He never complains that I scream when something jumps out. But we do get this ongoing tense blaming thing -why didn't you go over there? Did'nt you see that head hugger? Don't use all the bullets!
If I'm playing with a group online, people might be mad that I'm at the wrong spot or shooting the wrong monster, but I am blissfully unaware. I'm sort of reluctant to hook up the headset for DDO because then I'd hear people hollering at me
I have met such great people over time in SWG (even that fink Ico
). I dunno, maybe hold out just a bit longer.
Athela