Originally posted by Jodokai And just in case people need further proof (that will be later called not producing any proof), this is a Bioware employee describing what a Producer does for a game: I've highlighed the important parts. You can read the full thread here: http://forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=452611&forum=84&sp=0
Stanley Woo QA Ninja
Joined: 17 Oct 2001 From: Neptar Posted: Friday, 07 October 2005 11:50AM
Seems pretty complex. From what I know, the publisher is the one who spends all the money to get the game from the developer to the store shelves. They do the advertising, arrange for the manufacturing and distribution, and pay the developer so it can pay its employees. They also provide QA services, making sure the game works as intended.
Heck, compared to the publisher, the developer is small potatoes,which is something that some developer advocates are trying to change.
Videogame publishers do pretty much the same thing as book publishers, if that's any clearer.
1) You link the same thread twice. Maybe you meant to link a different one the second time? Certainly says nothing about IP in that one.
2) Your quoting that guy from Bioware will likely be refuted for two reasons I can see. a) He begins with "from what I know" - which leads one to believe he's no expert in the field. and b) I'm guessing that he's the "Woo" that is referred to as not being a particularly reliable source of info by the Bioware employee who was posting regarding the whole no outside IP work announcement being pre-MMO announcement and all that jazz. If I get time I'll dig it up if you hadn't seen that line.
In all, it's largely possible to have someone work at a company and not really know the extent of company to company business relationships. It happens all the time where I work - people know their job and what their department does, and *usually* how it will interact with other departments. But when it comes to the company's relationship to business partners - many "front line" employees are often foggy if not entirely clueless how it all works. (And in the industry I'm in, the relationships are pretty similar to the gaming industry in most respects).
Not taking sides either way, as I don't really know you or shayde/shade/however it's spelled. Just pointing out that he's going to have valid reasons to refute the bit you've posted as 'evidence'.
Valid points Grimtoast and if the QA Ninja title under Woo's name stands for Quality Assurance than it's very possible, and considering how big Bioware has become, that he has very little if any understanding of business to business relations Bioware has with other companies. QA usually provides feedback and testing but rarely do they actually get into the back scratching politics that are used for working with other business. From what I gather Woo like the other QA posters are more like Thunderheart but not as rash or deceitful.
i feel you but starwars is the only sci fi mmoout other then eve online, and that doesnt have characters in it, no walking around or anything, just people in ships.
No Jodokai. You've never shown conclusive proof. You only SAY that something is true, then claim that since I don't defer to your wisdom, I'm ignoring facts.
Especially in your latest case. Siting a bioware opinion on a developer relationship which has nothing to do with $OE. EVERY situation is different depending on the contracts written.
More accurately
Jodokai: The sky is red Shayde: You're nuts Jodokai: This martian guy says it is red. Here's pictures Shayde: this has nothing to do with Earth Jodokai: Well the box says it is a sky, and this guy's sky is red, so ours is red.
EVERYTHING I have read since launch have been $OE $OE $OE. Smed himself told me in he e-mail that they recently developed a closer relationship. RECENTLY.
Yes, LA was more involved since the CU. $OE squandered the game since launch and coded every glitch. NOBODY at LA coded a damn line of code. The bugs are their fault. The mismanaging for the first 2 years are their fault.
But feel free to post unrelated posts to support your unrelated clams anytime.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde Especially in your latest case. Siting a bioware opinion on a developer relationship which has nothing to do with $OE. EVERY situation is different depending on the contracts written. You're right Shayde you win. It works like this in EVERY FRIGGIN GAME EXCEPT SWG. How could I have been so silly. I can't believe I didn't realize SWG would be different from EVERY OTHER GAME EVER CREATED. Sorry. I made the silly mistake of thinking that since EVERY OTHER GAME WORKS THIS WAY SWG would too. My bad. EVERYTHING I have read since launch have been $OE $OE $OE. Smed himself told me in he e-mail that they recently developed a closer relationship. RECENTLY. Okay First of all we've all seen how well you read: First line of a Press release: LucasArts is developing a website for SWG. Shayde's comments: Man SOE is so stupid for developing that website. I'd find all the exact threads and your exact comments in them, but I'd be wasting my time since you'd ignore them anyway. Yes, LA was more involved since the CU. Now look at those words I've highlighted. So in your world if I say, I'm closer to my girlfriend today than I was yesterday, to you that means I hated my girlfriend yesterday? $OE squandered the game since launch and coded every glitch. NOBODY at LA coded a damn line of code. The bugs are their fault. The mismanaging for the first 2 years are their fault. And LEC was responsible for QA and making sure the game played as intended...Oh that's right, that's only how it works in every other game ever created, but not with SWG right Shayde? But feel free to post unrelated posts to support your unrelated clams anytime. And there we have it folks the complete denial of proof. I've shown from a 3rd source what a publisher does, Shayde looks at it and says"I don't beleive it." Now say again how it's not proof Shayde, it makes me giggle.
But there's where your argument falls short. You relate "every other" game to how this one was produced. Will you blame DC for the future errors of the DC comics game, or $OE?
Bioware made Kotor. THEY were responsible for everything in it. As long as it hit an acceptable mark, LA was happy. That's the same for every game developer.. the DEVELOPER makes the game, and the publisher pays. Funny, Bioware gets all the credit when it is good.. shouldn't LA be the ones who did it in your view?
Just look at Kotor2. LA decided to publish it bugged and unfinished. They didn't give the developer time to fix it, and that is their fault... but they didn't MAKE the game. They didn't micromanage the game. They just launched it unfinished.
Yes, if LA was responsible for QA, it was their fault that $OE got away with as much as they did. But they didn't code it, they didn't refuse to fix the bugs and they didn't fuck the game up.. they just ALLOWED it.
If someone leaves their gun cabinet open, and their kid gets a gun out and kills someone... it is STILL the kid's fault. $OE was that kid.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde But there's where your argument falls short. You relate "every other" game to how this one was produced. Will you blame DC for the future errors of the DC comics game, or $OE? And again you're forgetting my argument. I'm not saying it's all LucasArts' fault, I'm saying they are JUST as at fault as SOE, but to answer you question, yes assuming DC has as much to do with that MMO as LucasArts has with SWG, I will blame both companies Bioware made Kotor. THEY were responsible for everything in it. As long as it hit an acceptable mark, LA was happy. That's the same for every game developer.. the DEVELOPER makes the game, and the publisher pays. Funny, Bioware gets all the credit when it is good.. shouldn't LA be the ones who did it in your view? Absolutely. LucasArts made a great decsion going to Bioware. When Bioware came to LEC with a finished project and LucasArts looked at is said "It is good", they made great decsions. However the same process happened with SWG. LucasArts looked at it and "It is good". Just look at Kotor2. LA decided to publish it bugged and unfinished. They didn't give the developer time to fix it, and that is their fault... but they didn't MAKE the game. They didn't micromanage the game. They just launched it unfinished. See above and below Yes, if LA was responsible for QA, it was their fault that $OE got away with as much as they did. But they didn't code it, they didn't refuse to fix the bugs and they didn't fuck the game up.. they just ALLOWED it. If someone leaves their gun cabinet open, and their kid gets a gun out and kills someone... it is STILL the kid's fault. $OE was that kid. And now we come to the root of all our problems. You have a jacked up way of looking at things. I say you do, because most of society agrees with me. In your world, if I pay you 1 million dollars and tell you to kill my wife in a very painful manner. You take the money and tell me how you're going to kill her, and I tell you that's good do it that way, and you do. In your world I'm a innocent man. In your world I had nothing to do with the killing. In the real world things don't work that way. If I pay you to do something, and I'm in charge of how that something is supposed to be done, and you bring the finished project to me and I say: "That's Good", that means I'm just as responsible as you are. That's the way it works in the real world.
Comments
Heh, two tidbits with that post:
1) You link the same thread twice. Maybe you meant to link a different one the second time? Certainly says nothing about IP in that one.
2) Your quoting that guy from Bioware will likely be refuted for two reasons I can see. a) He begins with "from what I know" - which leads one to believe he's no expert in the field. and b) I'm guessing that he's the "Woo" that is referred to as not being a particularly reliable source of info by the Bioware employee who was posting regarding the whole no outside IP work announcement being pre-MMO announcement and all that jazz. If I get time I'll dig it up if you hadn't seen that line.
In all, it's largely possible to have someone work at a company and not really know the extent of company to company business relationships. It happens all the time where I work - people know their job and what their department does, and *usually* how it will interact with other departments. But when it comes to the company's relationship to business partners - many "front line" employees are often foggy if not entirely clueless how it all works. (And in the industry I'm in, the relationships are pretty similar to the gaming industry in most respects).
Not taking sides either way, as I don't really know you or shayde/shade/however it's spelled. Just pointing out that he's going to have valid reasons to refute the bit you've posted as 'evidence'.
Right, back to the scorer's table I go.
No Jodokai. You've never shown conclusive proof. You only SAY that something is true, then claim that since I don't defer to your wisdom, I'm ignoring facts.
Especially in your latest case. Siting a bioware opinion on a developer relationship which has nothing to do with $OE. EVERY situation is different depending on the contracts written.
More accurately
Jodokai: The sky is red
Shayde: You're nuts
Jodokai: This martian guy says it is red. Here's pictures
Shayde: this has nothing to do with Earth
Jodokai: Well the box says it is a sky, and this guy's sky is red, so ours is red.
EVERYTHING I have read since launch have been $OE $OE $OE. Smed himself told me in he e-mail that they recently developed a closer relationship. RECENTLY.
Yes, LA was more involved since the CU. $OE squandered the game since launch and coded every glitch. NOBODY at LA coded a damn line of code. The bugs are their fault. The mismanaging for the first 2 years are their fault.
But feel free to post unrelated posts to support your unrelated clams anytime.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
But there's where your argument falls short. You relate "every other" game to how this one was produced. Will you blame DC for the future errors of the DC comics game, or $OE?
Bioware made Kotor. THEY were responsible for everything in it. As long as it hit an acceptable mark, LA was happy. That's the same for every game developer.. the DEVELOPER makes the game, and the publisher pays. Funny, Bioware gets all the credit when it is good.. shouldn't LA be the ones who did it in your view?
Just look at Kotor2. LA decided to publish it bugged and unfinished. They didn't give the developer time to fix it, and that is their fault... but they didn't MAKE the game. They didn't micromanage the game. They just launched it unfinished.
Yes, if LA was responsible for QA, it was their fault that $OE got away with as much as they did. But they didn't code it, they didn't refuse to fix the bugs and they didn't fuck the game up.. they just ALLOWED it.
If someone leaves their gun cabinet open, and their kid gets a gun out and kills someone... it is STILL the kid's fault. $OE was that kid.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0