Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
No one wants our Money?
chocoborider
Member Posts: 23
What continues to amaze me about the SWG phenomenon is the very large number (if figures I'm seeing are accurate we're talking at least 150-200 thousand subsribers) of sophisticated gamers like myself, my closest friends, and the many regular posters I see on these boards that are BEGGING to have a complex, sandbox style game like what SWG once offered...and yet no one, including the company who proved it could be done and got us hooked on that game style in the first place, seems to be willing to provide it.
Seriously, no one wants a couple hundred thousand fanatically devoted, passionate customers?!!
What is wrong with this picture? 
I've tried at least 5 MMORPG's and researched several more since SOE cancelled the game I liked to play...and NONE of them come close to offering the experience I loved. Was pre-CU SWG perfect? No, not even close...but it was much more mature, IMMERSIVE (a term once used almost as often as 'Star Warsy' and 'Iconic' but that seems to have fallen by the wayside), challenging, relational, and FUN.
So $OE took a look at the pie, and threw away the chunk they had trying to get a different piece...they've already said how that's working for them, but what gets me is that NO ONE appears to be stepping up and delivering a serious offering to pick up the very respectable piece of pie that they cast to the wayside.
Comments
I have been kind of thinking the same thing myself. I for one am not into the fantasy genre, not even really a big Sci-Fi person either. SWG was a game I could relate to for some reason. Maybe I was able to reference it to the movies which gives it a sense of reality for me. I have always been into FPS games like Medal of Honor, Call of Duty and the Battlefield series. I was around SWG upon its release form watching my younger cousin play. At first he ran around shooting people, and killng banthas. Then it got wierd. From then on he was in a cantina dancing. So I called him "queer" from then on. He claims his "holocron" told him to be a dancer. I was lost.
Needless to say I was playing the game myself by the end of November 2003. I found the much slower paced game to be a much needed break from the fast paced FPS games, which is my biggest gripe of the game now without even mentioninig the dumbed-downness of the game as it is now. Even my 50 person clan I was in charge of even migrated to SWG for the most part. I brought most of my 50 clanmates with me to the game, as well as a couple hundred more players I met in-game. And with all these devoted fans, why will no one make a game we want. There is money to be had.
Sorry, I got off track and had to vent. My point was to read my quote under my name...
<----------------
Fantasy games outnumber Sci-Fi game somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-1. Why take the most unique game on the market and hack it death and leave a large maket-base without a home?
Choko, it's just like the female gamer demographic -- everyone says they want us, yet none of them have done a *BIT* of work to get us. I think that a lot of it has to do with perceptions. They project wildly inaccurate stereotypes on gamers, often neglecting to notice that there are a number of very distinct groups in gaming with very different needs from a game.
They often ignore numbers and trends that are outright slapping them in the head in favor of cooked, skewed and adjusted figures designed to tell them the things they've already decided they wish to hear.
WoW took the market by storm because it did something that no other game out on the market could claim -- it offered a mostly polished, very tightly tested and ready-for-live game to the market with an equally well done advertising blitz. WoW could have been anything at all and it would have done exactly what it did because they took the time and the manpower to do it right rather than releasing it half-assed, as has been the standard of the market for all too long now. And as much as many of us don't LIKE WoW, very few of us can say that we didn't play it for at least a little while and enjoyed the novel experience of playing a game that wasn't broken.
These people want our money. All of them. But they just haven't figured out how to get it from us now that we are wiser consumers who are shy of spending after we got burned by SOE. Right now, their learning curve is pretty slow. They don't really understand the whole SOE debacle yet. SOME of them are still looking to SOE as a guide to success. But once they catch up on the learning curve, and figure out we're not going to buy junk anymore just because the market's full of it, perhaps we'll see a company ready to take our money again.
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
Overall, I can't figure out WHY LA is going along with this crap. They're alienating TONS of Star Wars fans. The hardcore crazy fans that have been fans since the original trilogy was first in theaters. The ones that were fans when it was NOT cool to be a SW fan. When SW fans were seen as geeks. (side note, I wear my SW geek tag with pride
) WE are the ones that LA should be falling over themselves to please.
As to what Azhrarn said about female gamers, that's a significant change. Pre-CU, there were quite a few REAL females playing SWG. After the NGE, there seems to be VERY few. They HAD a product that was capturing that elusive female demographic from Sims Online and they tossed it away.
I just don't understand it, it makes NO sense.
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP
Eve: Cardoh Dycen
I support random drug testing for all SOE employees
I think catering to the sophisticated gamer began its decline the year Deer Hunter was a best seller. Now companies are more focused on providing a game for the lowest common denominator(they outnumber us now). WOW being a case in point. There are still some games that try to do this such as EVE but they have been reduced to niche status. The same thing has happened to PC strategy games. I remember when they use to be hard and complex now most of them are designed for idiots. sigh
Guess I will be needing to look for a new hobby soon if they keep this up.
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
To be honest I think the numbers of us who want to play a sophisticated game just aren't enough to sustain a title all by ourselves. I know I want a game that is open ended, highly sophisticated and very complex and a lot of others do too, but for every one of us there are a hundred kids with their parents credit card that just want instant gratification. I think there is still just this perception that the average gamer is a 14 year old boy and for that reason the games cater to that demographic.
/Salute Choco!!!
Thank you for saying this. I've been wondering this same thing for a while yet, but just couldn't put the thought together. While I consider myself a older gamer, I'm certainly not ready for "Canasta night with the Grandparents" to fullfill my gaming desires. "Mature" is a word I would use.
I played WOW for over a year and one thing I had trouble finding was a mature guild. Perhaps it wasn't so much finding a "mature" guild as what I would now consider the level of maturity overall of the game itself. To steal Aetius's term..."sophisticated"....I like that. I am a sophisticated gamer and I haven't found anything that compares to what was once SWG. Now, please pass the Grapenuts...:).
Vodoo
LOL! Yeah, the way the SWG forums melted down into childish, temper-tantrum spamfest for well over a month after the change to NGE really was the mark of a "sophisticated playerbase." The fact that there's still people who can't let go and you constantly see posts of "NGE SUX!!11 PRE-CU FTW!!!!1 ROLLBACK!111" also reeks of mature, serious gamers.
I'm not trying to flame here, but if I were a developer, the SWG crowd would be the last group of people I'd be after. Honestly, they are a niche-market, high maintanence crowd.
First off, they aren't that large a segment of the "gamer" population. Second, You'd have to worry about being crucified every single time you had to make a change to the game. Third, they've shown no qualms about going out of their way to contact any media outlet they can in an effort to ruin the reputation of a company they felt had done them wrong. Oh yeah, all this can be yours for the small price of putting together a complex, robust bug-free MMORPG!
As justified as Pre-CU fans have been in the actions they've taken against SOE, I think they've also made it unmistakably clear that the rewards of having them as your playerbase just don't justify the risk.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
You left out the most attractive features of this crowd out. You know the ones that keep developers coming back for more we have lots of money.
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
You left out the most attractive features of this crowd out. You know the ones that keep developers coming back for more we have lots of money.
Yeah, if they'd pay maybe 5 - 10 times the going rate for a monthly subscription, then I'd say they might be worht the headache.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
You hit the nail on the head right there. However there are titles being sustained by this group alone take EVE for example; however the larger companies that dominate the market now want to hit home runs which means catering to the 14 year olds.
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
Very good point!
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Never played SWG. I was warned away years ago by a friend who had an account when he told me it was one of the best MMORPGs he had ever played, but that it was crippled because it was not ready for release. He advised me to wait about 6 months to see how they fixed things.
Then, I lost track of it.
Now, after listening for the last few months to the long-time players here, I wish I had been able to give it a shot, even unfinished.
I, too, would like a "sand-box" game in which, unlike most every other MMORPG out there, I could feel like I was part of a player-driven living, evolving community and that a non-combat role had some real meaning to it.
Ah well.
LOL! Yeah, the way the SWG forums melted down into childish, temper-tantrum spamfest for well over a month after the change to NGE really was the mark of a "sophisticated playerbase." The fact that there's still people who can't let go and you constantly see posts of "NGE SUX!!11 PRE-CU FTW!!!!1 ROLLBACK!111" also reeks of mature, serious gamers.
I'm not trying to flame here, but if I were a developer, the SWG crowd would be the last group of people I'd be after. Honestly, they are a niche-market, high maintanence crowd.
First off, they aren't that large a segment of the "gamer" population. Second, You'd have to worry about being crucified every single time you had to make a change to the game. Third, they've shown no qualms about going out of their way to contact any media outlet they can in an effort to ruin the reputation of a company they felt had done them wrong. Oh yeah, all this can be yours for the small price of putting together a complex, robust bug-free MMORPG!
As justified as Pre-CU fans have been in the actions they've taken against SOE, I think they've also made it unmistakably clear that the rewards of having them as your playerbase just don't justify the risk.
-d
Pre-cu had the highest fan rating of any mmo. This site included. The number 1 complaint was bugs and content pre-cu.
Your statements are slanted towards only the playerbases action regarding the cu and nge both of which went forward with polls indicating playerbase satisfaction at or below 20% on respondants.
What is left commenting is not an accurate accounting of the star wars mmo fanbase. What one should concur is that swg had the loyalist most devoted fan base of any mmo until soe and la took the version they paid for trashed it and didn't listen to the customers about the product they where hacking up.
Although I am sure soe sees it your way. Also on a side note. The community had a group of individuals to filter ideas and problems to the devs called correspondents who responded to the players. This program never was fully implimented and the devs choose not to listen to these players feedback on changes. That is why the cu and nge is flooded with hate mail.
Some asks for an orange and you hand them a banana and insist they really wanted a banana and see the reaction they give you.
That is the cu and nge.
Im all for complex games but Im just really struggling to get into EVE. Not being able to get out of your ship ticks me off.
lol still 10 days left on my trial so im determined to plod through it.
For the Horde!
Pre-cu had the highest fan rating of any mmo. This site included. The number 1 complaint was bugs and content pre-cu.
Your statements are slanted towards only the playerbases action regarding the cu and nge both of which went forward with polls indicating playerbase satisfaction at or below 20% on respondants.
What is left commenting is not an accurate accounting of the star wars mmo fanbase. What one should concur is that swg had the loyalist most devoted fan base of any mmo until soe and la took the version they paid for trashed it and didn't listen to the customers about the product they where hacking up.
Although I am sure soe sees it your way. Also on a side note. The community had a group of individuals to filter ideas and problems to the devs called correspondents who responded to the players. This program never was fully implimented and the devs choose not to listen to these players feedback on changes. That is why the cu and nge is flooded with hate mail.
Some asks for an orange and you hand them a banana and insist they really wanted a banana and see the reaction they give you.
That is the cu and nge.
I completely agree with what you're saying.
All I'm saying is to answer the question, "No One Want's Our Money?" one need only at how the playerbase reacted to the the two most publicized changes to the game to see why that might be. I highly doubt any developer is going to look at the mess after CU, and especially after NGE, and think that those are the people they want to put years of hardwork into a project to attract.
It's like when you read a newstory about a dog that attacks its family's small child. You don't think about the years upon years that the dog had been a good, loyal pet protecting the family. You just think, "I'm glad that wasn't my dog!"
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
I can only speak for myself,
I'm a SW fan since the 70's but I've never been die hard. I'm not a MMO gamer so I guess the SW name lured me to test SWG out. I was hooked from the first second.
I got lost in the depth and immersion of the game. It was really thrilling and it was almost as the PnP games I played in my younger years. I didn't even care about the bugs i came across as I had no experience in MMOs before. I read the forum and scratched my head about all the whining... why do they complain so much?
Then the CU happened and even I started whining... why do they take away the freedom and what is this stupid combat level stuff in a skillbased game?
And you all know what happened after that, the NGE and I just gave up. The game has turned into the exact thing that held me away from MMOs in the first place. Stupid, easy, TV-entertainment with a big bag of greasy chips! Catered for the "I want it now and just feed me with it. I don't want to get out of my couch to even take a ..."
I want to use my head and I want some logic and challenge when I play. The reward is so much greater when you figure out how to complete a task on your own than when you get instructions for every step. When you get there you find there are even deeper things to try out. If a MMO comes out that use the core vision of classic SWG I'd jump on it in a second whatever setting it is. That is the type of game I want to play.
So back to what the OP said... there is maybe 100-150k ppl that want a game like that and I'm sure a player base of that size is profitable. I do not play SWG any longer as I find it shallow to what is was. I've read up on many games and see that they are all the same.
Someone replied in this thread about "right, sophisticated players? Look at the childish SWG boards and here!!" I say when ppl get angry they tend to not showing their best sides. That is no defense to act that way but SWG sure was a more sophisticated game before. I would rather say mature as you had to look beyond your own avatar to see the game and that is what grown ups learn (lol, most anyway) to do in life. Younger ppl has a much more "ME view" than "WE view".
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
I really do agree with most of your opinions , But I also see why things have changed over the last few years. A lot of gamers find sophistication to be tedious and boring . Companys have been tossing out micro managment for more stream lined , instant action experiences . In other words think Hollywood.
Most of the blame can be laid on technology , Older games were more complex because they lacked in visual/Audio representation . It seems the more Graphics and audio capabilities improve , The less involved game play we get . Everything recent seems to play like a hollywood blockbuster, Perfect example Star Wars :Empire at war
The only point you make I do not agree with is your cassification of these two different types of gamers . Which is almost as much to blame , I wouldn't consider it to be on an individuals sophistication level . Rather their allotted time for gaming . There are far more busy people in this world , Those who can enjoy leisure 24/7 are a rare breed.
On a side note : I found my temporary replacment for SWG in ES4:Oblivion
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I had 3 accounts during pre cu and cu.
All cancelled when the NGE hit.
********************************
SWG pre cu - never forgotten.
Very... sophisticated.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Very... sophisticated.
-d
Not really.
The best way to send a clear message, is to stop paying for a product that you no longer find good enough.
As for my sig, I only wrote the words SOE themselves use to promote the NGE.
I find it very pleasing and ironic to see that it was reason enough to remove my sig.
********************************
SWG pre cu - never forgotten.
Eve is defintly hard to get into. I find it more enjoyable if play other things as well that involve having a body. I wish they could harness more of what you get to enjoy into the trial instead of just the time sink parts. The fun comes later with PVP and working together with your alliance to defend your territory.
Another complex game you might try out when it releases is Roma Victor. That one is looking like it will also be the complex/niche game.
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>