Originally posted by Rekrul This is my problem with "class-based" games. You can add all the diversity, but you are a class: Level 50 orc priest (with bard taunt and warrior spell of defense) Level 30 human fighter (with priest elite healing skill) Level 40 elvish ranger (with xyz skills from other classes) You cannot be human ranger (game says so) In SWG you were YOU. Professions served your role. I like to fight (TK). When in towns, I like to make swoops (Master art), and since I can, I also ocassionally craft pups. If I find myself in med center, I'd help heal wounds (4xxx medic, or whatever it was). What class am I? Healer? Warrior? Crafter? Am I ranger (I can do /medical forage, and use cdef for ranged attacks) Am I a tank, (plenty of melee in there), am I a wound healing doc? I have to be, since I have the ability to heal wounds. A class based game, is where you are <level><class>. Anything else is just decoration. Will someone ask a healer priest to come tank? Hell, in SWG you could be TKM/Doc, and would perform both roles. But you could also go Pike/Swords/Fencer and be the "ultimate" tank. Or Defender, and once again a tank. Or pistoleer/smuggler/commando (or whatever the defense lines were) and tank with dodge. Hell, you could go as master armorsmith/suitable defense prof and tank. This is what was lost. Many Classes does not equal diversity. A class is a class is a class. Can you start as a warrior, then add ranged skills, drop part of warrior for healing, then take some crafting on the side, add some stealth skills, then drop part of ranged to get more in crafting, move back up warrior on the expense of ranged, etc. SWG allowed you to change and adapt. Class games cannot and will not be able to provide that. Nor do levels.
Amen. This is what I have been arguing for a long time, class based games offer RESTRICTION. Non class based games like SWG, even though it did have a terrible grind - offered something all these other games cant: Allowing you to be you.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by azhrarn You know what cracks me up about the "who'd want a bunch of high-maintenance fanbois that would shit on your good name" responses? They completely neglect to mention that that selfsame group of people played that game fairthfully and fanatically, despite broken promises, outright lies and blatant abuse by the game company for YEARS before finally turning around and going apeshit on them. These are the same people who forgave the great smuggler lie for years. ... To borrow the dog analogy, all dogs bite. It's all a question of when and why.
No, the loyalty was covered. It's just that, IMO, the several month long forum disruption and the contacting many news/media outlets in an concious effort to ruin SOE's reputation is going to catch the attention of prospective devs rather than the same group's story of how much they went through at the hands of the developer waiting for delivery.
This isn't a question of, "Is the SWG fanbase any good?" The question is, "Why does no one want our money?" And this is the answer as I see it. The SWG playerbase really hasn't done a whole lot to help their own reputation as of late which was descimated with the playerbase's (justifiably) extreme reaction to the NGE.
I just don't think anyone's going to care about the playerbase's loyalty after they see the damage they've gone out of their way to do. I doubt that they're going to see that loyalty as being worth the risk. Though, all I can say for certainty is that I don't.
All dogs are capable of biting, but dogs that have a history of biting are usually put to sleep.
Just trying to be objective here,
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Originally posted by azhrarn You know what cracks me up about the "who'd want a bunch of high-maintenance fanbois that would shit on your good name" responses? They completely neglect to mention that that selfsame group of people played that game fairthfully and fanatically, despite broken promises, outright lies and blatant abuse by the game company for YEARS before finally turning around and going apeshit on them. These are the same people who forgave the great smuggler lie for years. ... To borrow the dog analogy, all dogs bite. It's all a question of when and why.
No, the loyalty was covered. It's just that, IMO, the several month long forum disruption and the contacting many news/media outlets in an concious effort to ruin SOE's reputation is going to catch the attention of prospective devs rather than the same group's story of how much they went through at the hands of the developer waiting for delivery.
This isn't a question of, "Is the SWG fanbase any good?" The question is, "Why does no one want our money?" And this is the answer as I see it. The SWG playerbase really hasn't done a whole lot to help their own reputation as of late which was descimated with the playerbase's (justifiably) extreme reaction to the NGE.
I just don't think anyone's going to care about the playerbase's loyalty after they see the damage they've gone out of their way to do. I doubt that they're going to see that loyalty as being worth the risk. Though, all I can say for certainty is that I don't.
All dogs are capable of biting, but dogs that have a history of biting are usually put to sleep.
Originally posted by duggo Originally posted by azhrarn You know what cracks me up about the "who'd want a bunch of high-maintenance fanbois that would shit on your good name" responses? They completely neglect to mention that that selfsame group of people played that game fairthfully and fanatically, despite broken promises, outright lies and blatant abuse by the game company for YEARS before finally turning around and going apeshit on them. These are the same people who forgave the great smuggler lie for years. ... To borrow the dog analogy, all dogs bite. It's all a question of when and why.
No, the loyalty was covered. It's just that, IMO, the several month long forum disruption and the contacting many news/media outlets in an concious effort to ruin SOE's reputation is going to catch the attention of prospective devs rather than the same group's story of how much they went through at the hands of the developer waiting for delivery.
This isn't a question of, "Is the SWG fanbase any good?" The question is, "Why does no one want our money?" And this is the answer as I see it. The SWG playerbase really hasn't done a whole lot to help their own reputation as of late which was descimated with the playerbase's (justifiably) extreme reaction to the NGE.
I just don't think anyone's going to care about the playerbase's loyalty after they see the damage they've gone out of their way to do. I doubt that they're going to see that loyalty as being worth the risk. Though, all I can say for certainty is that I don't.
All dogs are capable of biting, but dogs that have a history of biting are usually put to sleep.
Just trying to be objective here,
-d
I still dont understand, maybe im not reading it right. What do you think should happen to a company who LIES to their customers, ignores their opinions and concerns, and whos product is consistenly broken? that is the exact opposite to how any successful business should treat their customers, but youdont think soe's name should be damaged in any way? You think they should just keep doing this and no one should say a word? So, basicaly everyone who payed money for a shitty product, was mislead into buying an expansion and just ignored for another market should shut up and like it and not make any fuss.
What do you think keeps companies from treating their customers like soe did on a regular basis? they dont want people bad mouthing them and keeping away potential new customers, which is what is happening to soe. which in my eyes, makes perfect sense, but maybe im just crazy.
Any company who knows how to run an mmo should not fear the swg customer base. In fact, they should want them, because i think they stuck around for alot more bugs, broken content and broken promises then alot of other people would.
Originally posted by LilT I still dont understand, maybe im not reading it right. What do you think should happen to a company who LIES to their customers, ignores their opinions and concerns, and whos product is consistenly broken? that is the exact opposite to how any successful business should treat their customers, but youdont think soe's name should be damaged in any way? You think they should just keep doing this and no one should say a word? So, basicaly everyone who payed money for a shitty product, was mislead into buying an expansion and just ignored for another market should shut up and like it and not make any fuss. What do you think keeps companies from treating their customers like soe did on a regular basis? they dont want people bad mouthing them and keeping away potential new customers, which is what is happening to soe. which in my eyes, makes perfect sense, but maybe im just crazy. Any company who knows how to run an mmo should not fear the swg customer base. In fact, they should want them, because i think they stuck around for alot more bugs, broken content and broken promises then alot of other people would.
Yeah, the reason we're not connecting on this is because you think that the fact that there is a very good reason for every destructive thing that SWG fans have done makes a difference in whether or not they're are going to be seen as "worth going after." And I don't think it does.
I think any developer is going to look at what has happened and say, "If we do anything to piss these people off it's going to cause a major headache for us the likes of which we have never seen, do we really need that?" instead of, "Say, as long as we don't act like SOE these seem like people who will really appreciate our style game!"
I'm not discussing the question of who deserves what treatment. I'm just exploring why "No One Wants Our Money."
Does that help?
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
I would like to point out Terrell Owens. Terrible teammate, worst whiner in the history of the sport, media nightmare and a soap opera that runs 24/7. After the Philly debacle, you would think that no team would touch the man with a 10' cattleprod.
However no less than 4 teams tried to land him. Why? Because of his talent and skill on the field. As much as I loathe the man - he is one of the best WRs in the game today if not the best. The same thing could be said about SWG Exiles.
No matter how many forums we fill up, protests we launch or funny doctored photos we make - there is going to be a company that sees the staggering number of us (as we are quite visable and would easily go to one location or another for a headcount) and then do some math. The resulting dollar figure would be too much for anyone to ignore. Its an instant fanbase - a cash wild horse that just needs to be reigned in and handled correctly. With the right CS and dev interaction, the majority of us are placated. Hell, we secretly are eternal optimists as we keep checking back in hopes something changes. Thats devotion that no system can teach or buy.
In short, our mass and money are like Terrell Owen's skills. We can't be overlooked and there is always someone out there who will take a risk. I think that STO will vie for this action - they just need a bit more time to get off of the ground.
Hi, I'd like to purchase an SWG 2 please. The MMO (world simulation, similar to pre-cu) version, not an FPS NGE suck version. Thanks. Here's my 15/month.
look SOE has stuffed swg up im only playing it until another mmorpg game is releaed that i am watching, one of them '9 dragons' the only one thing i can say they did well was their player built cities otherwise THEY ARE HOPELESS period.
Originally posted by kefkah I would like to point out Terrell Owens. Terrible teammate, worst whiner in the history of the sport, media nightmare and a soap opera that runs 24/7. After the Philly debacle, you would think that no team would touch the man with a 10' cattleprod. However no less than 4 teams tried to land him. Why? Because of his talent and skill on the field. As much as I loathe the man - he is one of the best WRs in the game today if not the best. The same thing could be said about SWG Exiles. No matter how many forums we fill up, protests we launch or funny doctored photos we make - there is going to be a company that sees the staggering number of us (as we are quite visable and would easily go to one location or another for a headcount) and then do some math. The resulting dollar figure would be too much for anyone to ignore. Its an instant fanbase - a cash wild horse that just needs to be reigned in and handled correctly. With the right CS and dev interaction, the majority of us are placated. Hell, we secretly are eternal optimists as we keep checking back in hopes something changes. Thats devotion that no system can teach or buy. In short, our mass and money are like Terrell Owen's skills. We can't be overlooked and there is always someone out there who will take a risk. I think that STO will vie for this action - they just need a bit more time to get off of the ground.
I'm an Eagles fan my whole life, a SWG exile, and WOW hater(Quaility gaem just don't like Fantasy). I am lucky to make it out alive last year.
In this day and age having to say the thing I am about to say is just rediculous. How many business' these days have a tough time finding customers and spend millions on advertising just to get and retain customers. Here is an ENTIRE community currently an untapped, waiting, willing, and an able customer base that wants to spend money on a game and we have NOTHING. Sure things look promising 1 maybe 2 years from now(Star Trek, Stargate Worlds) but until then you are not getting our $20ish per month per person and there is AT LEAST 200,000 of us. THAT IS $108,000,000 INCLUDING GAME COST AND YOU ARE JUST THROWING IT AWAY. That is more than some coutries earn over 2 years.
To Game developers, I make good money and WANT to pay for a SCI-FI game for a very Long time. But I do not like fanatasy I like good old fashion Sci-fi get me a good product and I will play and pay.
I still dont understand, maybe im not reading it right. What do you think should happen to a company who LIES to their customers, ignores their opinions and concerns, and whos product is consistenly broken? that is the exact opposite to how any successful business should treat their customers, but youdont think soe's name should be damaged in any way? You think they should just keep doing this and no one should say a word? So, basicaly everyone who payed money for a shitty product, was mislead into buying an expansion and just ignored for another market should shut up and like it and not make any fuss. What do you think keeps companies from treating their customers like soe did on a regular basis? they dont want people bad mouthing them and keeping away potential new customers, which is what is happening to soe. which in my eyes, makes perfect sense, but maybe im just crazy. Any company who knows how to run an mmo should not fear the swg customer base. In fact, they should want them, because i think they stuck around for alot more bugs, broken content and broken promises then alot of other people would.
Yeah, the reason we're not connecting on this is because you think that the fact that there is a very good reason for every destructive thing that SWG fans have done makes a difference in whether or not they're are going to be seen as "worth going after." And I don't think it does.
I think any developer is going to look at what has happened and say, "If we do anything to piss these people off it's going to cause a major headache for us the likes of which we have never seen, do we really need that?" instead of, "Say, as long as we don't act like SOE these seem like people who will really appreciate our style game!"
I'm not discussing the question of who deserves what treatment. I'm just exploring why "No One Wants Our Money."
Does that help?
-d
I would respectfully disagree. The fanbase went to the media outlets looong after the game was released. They were pissed off that they had their whole gaming experience (granted TOS say game experience may change, but what they did is open for debate still) changed and had almost 3 years worth of effort and time flushed down the toilet. It was the lack of communication (IMO their side faild miserably at talking to the player base to start out with) that created this whole mess. The players continually reported bugs and issues, and what they wanted to see in the game. They also kept complaining that the test servers were not left up long enough. The first CU was not the ones the players voted for (the first and LAST time SOE had a poll about what players thought of the changes) and yet they got the one no one wanted. This information was wholely ignored by SOE/LA. I will concede that the market for SWG fans is unique, but give them what they want and they will spend the moeny time and time again for it. Blaming the issues the game had on the player base is nonsense. They are the ones who released it half broke. They are the ones who didn't put enough resources in place to maintain the game. I can pretty much gaurantee that had they not pushed out expansion after expansion, and instead concentrated on fixing the core game (liek they are doing now, albeit to little to late) then they might not be in the pickle they are in.
Just my opinion though... I could be wrong.
Player of SWG since publish 1 - Ended when the NGE came out.
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Just out of interest folks, how many MMORPG's have you tried since leaving the steaming pile of sh1t that is the NGE? Personally I have tried:
1. CoV - Guild moved there from SWG Bria, however, I only lasted 2 months. Have never been into comics, superheros etc and I just couldnt really get into the game.
2. WoW - Utter garbage, lasted the 1 month trial. Community was absolutely awful and also the fantasy setting just really isnt my thing.
3. EVE Online - Boring as hell, NO GROUND GAME, enough said.
4. Silkroad Online - Pretty good game for free, however, I was just playing this to get a feel for a Korean MMORPG before RF was released.
5. RF Online - Playing this currently and enjoying it, pvp is great fun on this game, the CW's are a blast.
All that said I would drop RF like a hot potato if SWG was to revert to Pre-CU (never going to happen though, I know ). Hell, I would even start all over again if need be.
SWG was my first MMORPG and in its Pre-CU form was the best game that I have ever played, never mind the best MMORPG.
MMORPG History: Playing - EVE Online. Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion. Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9). Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
Well here are a few of the ones that I can remember I tried so many looking for a replacement:
1. COV/COH - It was fun for a short time. After the jetpacks from xmas were removed I quit.
2. FOM - OMG what a piece of utter garbage. Was looking for a sci-fi replacement and this is definately not it.
3. Tantra - This is like WoW only in a different context.
4. RF Online - This to is a cross between WoW and possibly Lineage with the anime graphics.
5. Horizons - Now this one is promising but it just was not star wars.
6. Neocron2 - Definately not a replacement for a sci-fi game it was horrid.
7. DaOC - I hated the interface and it was cheesy graphics and play style.
8. LineageII - Currently playing this one. Its pvp all the time and you can be killed at any minute and the grind is horrendous when you get to the higher levels. Crafting all done by dwarfs and definately not complex like star wars. The economy is way out of whack. You may have thought things were bad at times in SWG well let me tell you this would put that to shame. Its no wonder there are so many ppl that buy credits just to get gear in this game. People complained about AFK grinding in SWG well in this game they are called farmers/bots and they run around with names like ttjjksleo and thats all they do 24/7. Its a business to them.
I will continue with L2 until something else comes along but my hopes are that it will be the game I once loved and pathetic as it may sound devoted all of my spare time to. Housework went undone, bills were put off lol. Heck I even played at work (being in IT made it easy to do).
Someone out there that has the cash to start a game like we once had PLEASE LISTEN to our pleas. We are tired of hack and slash and no depth. Bring back some complexity and an awsome crafting system.
Ive tried COH, EQ2, and WOW. All of them bored me to tears almost immediately.
I know personally, I would have kept playing forever. As crazy at it may sound, I would gladly pay several times the original monthly fee to be able to play my characters againg in a pre-cu world. Before you scoff, I have been blowing so much more money than that since the NGE. This game was my main source of entertainment pre-NGE, and it really was a cost saver. Now im going out to clubs constantly, drinking nearly alcoholically, and going on shopping sprees for shit I dont want. Not to mention all the games I keep buying in hopes of finding a suitable replacement.
Damn you Julio....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Alright guys. The time has come. This SWG craze has gone far enough. The devils at SOE will not get away with this! Im going to character creation, and creating a new character to combat these bastards. Watch out Smedly...Im kicking your ass first!
Originally posted by kefkah I would like to point out Terrell Owens. Terrible teammate, worst whiner in the history of the sport, media nightmare and a soap opera that runs 24/7. After the Philly debacle, you would think that no team would touch the man with a 10' cattleprod. However no less than 4 teams tried to land him. Why? Because of his talent and skill on the field. As much as I loathe the man - he is one of the best WRs in the game today if not the best. The same thing could be said about SWG Exiles. ... In short, our mass and money are like Terrell Owen's skills. We can't be overlooked and there is always someone out there who will take a risk. I think that STO will vie for this action - they just need a bit more time to get off of the ground.
You do realize that even with many of it's "mass" having multiple accounts (some claiming as many as 20), even at their peek they barely got SWG over 300k subs. If they're provided maultiple alts per server, they yield even far fewer subs than that.
I just can't agree with the comparison between SWG players and Terrel Owens. Owens' skill kept teams interested despite the trouble his attitude caused, Pre-CU SWG "mass and money" couldn't keep interest before they even started trouble. Only 4 teams out of 30 are desperate enough to bring T.O. on board, what chance have SWG fans have?
And before you say, "Well, SOE was just too stupid to realize what they had with the Pre-CU," where are all the skill-based, sandbox, virtual world games that were created in an effort to steal all that "mass and money" away from SOE?
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Originally posted by Xcathdra Originally posted by duggo
Yeah, the reason we're not connecting on this is because you think that the fact that there is a very good reason for every destructive thing that SWG fans have done makes a difference in whether or not they're are going to be seen as "worth going after." And I don't think it does. I think any developer is going to look at what has happened and say, "If we do anything to piss these people off it's going to cause a major headache for us the likes of which we have never seen, do we really need that?" instead of, "Say, as long as we don't act like SOE these seem like people who will really appreciate our style game!" I'm not discussing the question of who deserves what treatment. I'm just exploring why "No One Wants Our Money." Does that help? -d
I would respectfully disagree. The fanbase went to the media outlets looong after the game was released. They were pissed off that they had their whole gaming experience (granted TOS say game experience may change, but what they did is open for debate still) changed and had almost 3 years worth of effort and time flushed down the toilet. It was the lack of communication (IMO their side faild miserably at talking to the player base to start out with) that created this whole mess. The players continually reported bugs and issues, and what they wanted to see in the game. They also kept complaining that the test servers were not left up long enough. The first CU was not the ones the players voted for (the first and LAST time SOE had a poll about what players thought of the changes) and yet they got the one no one wanted. This information was wholely ignored by SOE/LA. I will concede that the market for SWG fans is unique, but give them what they want and they will spend the moeny time and time again for it. Blaming the issues the game had on the player base is nonsense. They are the ones who released it half broke. They are the ones who didn't put enough resources in place to maintain the game. I can pretty much gaurantee that had they not pushed out expansion after expansion, and instead concentrated on fixing the core game (liek they are doing now, albeit to little to late) then they might not be in the pickle they are in.
Just my opinion though... I could be wrong.
Player of SWG since publish 1 - Ended when the NGE came out.
Xcathdra
I don't think anyone in this thread is saying the fans should be blamed for the problems in the game, or that SOE did anything right since launch.
What I'm saying is that when SWG fans attacked the comopany very publicly over issues they had with the game it was quite possible that they scared off other dev companies from creating the same type of game, thus creating the perception that "No One Wants Our Money."
I put forth that game developers might be afraid to approach a playerbase that has shown a history of backlashing violently and all people seem to retort is that the violent backlash was entirely SOE's fault. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. I would think that every developer knows that eventually they're going to make a decision with the game that is not going to be popular and as such, the more prudent of them are going to try to avoid aquiring a playerbase that will react the way SWG's has been known to.
Yes, I know that the SWG playerbase put up with a helluva a lot of crap before they finally smacked SOE back, but unfortunately none of that stands out as much as the CU or NGE, so it's likely that the loyalty will go unnoticed or be overshadowed.
I, too, could very well be wrong but it seems a plausible answer to why "No One Wants Our Money."
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
hehe, duggo I see your point but your comments make me think of developer studios as a bunch of 10 year olds going "Jee, those are bullies and not very nice, better stay away from them so nothing evil ever happen to us!"
They are grown ups handling a business right? (Well sometimes you get you doubts...)
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
Assume a company needs to improve its performance. Looking at options, they realize that much of their work could be outsourced off-shore. People off-shore will work for $2 per hour, while your current workforce requires $10. Considering the cost of migration and operating costs, your new cost per worker will be $7.
So the company decides to lay off 74% of their current employees, in favor of saving $3 per. Overnight, 6500 people find themself out of work. They didn't do anything, they were doing great job. Some were senior employees, with over 20 years with the company. But now, they are redundant.
In the quarterly report, the company publishes profit increase of 12.6%, and stocks grow by 9%. Other companies, trying to cash in on their success, look at what has happened. What they see, is that outsourcing off-shore is a quick, easy, efficient and reliable way to increase quarterly performance. Over the period of 3 years, 20-40% of current workforce in the same industry is let go in favor of outsourcing.
And one of the people that got laid off says: "Nobody wants our expertise?"
See the problem? Players do not exist. MMOs (do not be fooled, any corporation/business MUST operate the same way) must not have players. They have subscriptions plans, subscriber turnaround and quarterly and monthly profit reports.
And if you believe that some MMOs actually listen to players or consider them, answer this: "Is Microsoft evil, and Google good?"
You do realize that even with many of it's "mass" having multiple accounts (some claiming as many as 20), even at their peek they barely got SWG over 300k subs. If they're provided maultiple alts per server, they yield even far fewer subs than that. I just can't agree with the comparison between SWG players and Terrel Owens. Owens' skill kept teams interested despite the trouble his attitude caused, Pre-CU SWG "mass and money" couldn't keep interest before they even started trouble. Only 4 teams out of 30 are desperate enough to bring T.O. on board, what chance have SWG fans have? And before you say, "Well, SOE was just too stupid to realize what they had with the Pre-CU," where are all the skill-based, sandbox, virtual world games that were created in an effort to steal all that "mass and money" away from SOE? -d
You are overlooking and simplifying some the components to the situation. Look at the history of business in general particularly in this current day and age. Its follow the leader - WoW currently is the leader and its now the most likely to be imitated. People see the word 6 million and soon enough companies want that golden ring - even companies who formerly had nothing to do with the industry. Sandbox was a different concept and had it been properly done - it would have been emulated as well. Problem was that it wasn't handled with even the most remote sense of business savy.
Are you scoffing at 300k subs or the playerbase who mave have alt'ed some of those subs? Is this a pittance to you? It may be to WoW but I assure you that 300k worth of subs still is a heavyweight in this industry. Was reading an article in a business ezine talking about Second Life's sub numbers which were much lower that this meager 300k and it was viewed as a growing success. Mathematically 300k is enough to substain any normal mmoprg and IS - I repeat - an instant playerbase. Hell half of that is a playerbase. Enough to funnel capitol into any normal mmorpg to keep it alive for quite some time. SOE just wanted more and took about it the wrong way (as anyone in the industry will now tell you). Again, it may not be 300k of people but its a playerbase that is capable of providing that amount and will do so happily if their needs are met. Past as you pointed out proves that.
Do you actually think that Owners give a crap about Terrell Owen's skills? No - they don't. Let me lift the curtain up to show you the wizard underneath. They want him because with him they can win. Winning means more airtime, playoffs, superbowls and all of this equals the MAIN reason they are in the business - Money. Money makes the world go round. It pervades the universe and binds everything together. Games aren't made because they, the builders, want to have fun. Movies are rarely made because the story must be told. They are made to make money. To take our money to be exact. So while our money may require listening to us moan - I assure you the dollars are still spendable and thus someone will come calling to relieve us of them.
I don't buy any woah as us, the future is bleak and we are the last of our kind mindset. If there is money to be made, a company will arise to meet the demand. Four teams? To be honest, I could give a rat's arse if its one or one hundred. It will just take one and I assure you that line for the position is forming around the corner. It may take time but such is the way of life.
So in summary, we have a need and the money to pay for the need. A company or companies will come to get it and they will provide a product that meets our needs.
So in summary, we have a need and the money to pay for the need. A company or companies will come to get it and they will provide a product that meets our needs.
Can they? Look at the waterworld comment in this article.
The investment might be greater than what population can support. The upfront investment of large, AAA-class MMORPGs is measured in tens of millions of dollars. That is the money spent before the game is launched.
Now consider this: majority of mmo income comes from boxed copies sold. Subscriptions, once active, will cover the running costs, plus after some time add to the income. Lets assume the production costs $30 mil upfront. A population of 400k buys the game during first month after launch, peaking the subscriptions at 200k during 4 months after launch. During these 4 months, an additional 150k copies are sold, and subscriptions settle at 125k. A copy costs $50, subscription is $15. The boxed copies account for $27mil, subscriptions bring in another 2.5 mil. And these values are not tax adjusted.
In 4 months, you haven't even covered the initial investment, let alone made enough to cover upkeep.
The figures above are real, for mmo with succesful launch, and typical budget. 125k subscriptions is actually a large number, and the assumption is made, that average subscription length will be 3 months and subscriber turn-over rate 8%. Most games will start with much smaller initial sales, and considerably smaller subscription numbers. GW for example took 6 or 7 months to get 1 mil copies sold (no subscription).
Most of today's *succesful* MMORPGs would be happy with the number above, most have less.
Good points and alone by themselves - these numbers would deter any company away from even trying to make an MMORPG unless it followed status quo. But the companies I have worked for and from my personal experience (which has been faulty before and so I try and keep my cup empty) tend to think long term. In any business startup, it is assumed that you that you will be working at a loss for easily a year. No company with a realistic view of income could ever expect to comp theirs startup back in four months, six months or even a year.
Thus, I believe, that MMORPGs are like companies. You see them as an investment and should be attended to as such. Population issues are solved by expansions, added content and long term reputation that is provided by word of mouth. Eve is the poster child of the correct way to do things. Yes, the game isn't for everyone but it is an excellent product that receives the support of its makers. It was a niche market and through time and proper innovations - its population is growing and is stable. Thus would be the fate of a company that comes forward to meet our need and handles our expectations correctly. Is Eve every going to overtake WoW? No. However, has the company started to generate a profit? I am sure that they have and will continue to do so for years to come as long as they keep up their excellent reputation and keep the fanbase happy by not switching the game over into something entirely different midstream.
To save anyone the effort of finding the flaws in my argument - let me point it out. I used the words I believe. I am not always right and some would tell you that I may almost always be wrong but again, I provided the reasons for why I see someone making a game and targetting us as a playerbase. Profitability can be attained and our needs met. We are not unrealistic, we are patient, we only require certain components to believe in and we are willing to pay for them. You do not to be a Walmart to make money. You need only to think longterm, make your product or line fresh and treat your clients with respect.
You are overlooking and simplifying some the components to the situation. Look at the history of business in general particularly in this current day and age. Its follow the leader - WoW currently is the leader and its now the most likely to be imitated. People see the word 6 million and soon enough companies want that golden ring - even companies who formerly had nothing to do with the industry. Sandbox was a different concept and had it been properly done - it would have been emulated as well. Problem was that it wasn't handled with even the most remote sense of business savy.
I can't really take someone's reprimand of oversimplifying a situation seriously when they try to equate the SWG playerbase with a football player. Sorry.
All you're doing when revealing the complexity that the industry is "follow the leader" is supporting the idea that the SWG playerbase isn't that attractive to future MMO development projects.
Originally posted by kefkah
Are you scoffing at 300k subs or the playerbase who mave have alt'ed some of those subs? Is this a pittance to you? It may be to WoW but I assure you that 300k worth of subs still is a heavyweight in this industry. Was reading an article in a business ezine talking about Second Life's sub numbers which were much lower that this meager 300k and it was viewed as a growing success. Mathematically 300k is enough to substain any normal mmoprg and IS - I repeat - an instant playerbase. Hell half of that is a playerbase. Enough to funnel capitol into any normal mmorpg to keep it alive for quite some time. SOE just wanted more and took about it the wrong way (as anyone in the industry will now tell you). Again, it may not be 300k of people but its a playerbase that is capable of providing that amount and will do so happily if their needs are met. Past as you pointed out proves that.
I wouldn't scoff at 300k subs, but that was what it had at it's peak with many multiple accounts, and it was already falling off that many before the CU was even announced. If they limit the number of characters players may have per server to one (like SOE did with SWG) they might achieve 300k subs with this playerbase. If they provide players with several alts per server they would like get far, far less than that. To think that if you build a game for this crowd and you'll instantly have a 300k paying subscriptions is folly. To assume that you'll instantly have 150k is risky.
Originally posted by kefkah
Do you actually think that Owners give a crap about Terrell Owen's skills? No - they don't. Let me lift the curtain up to show you the wizard underneath. They
...
Games aren't made because they, the builders, want to have fun. Movies are rarely made because the story must be told. They are made to make money. To take our money to be exact. So while our money may require listening to us moan - I assure you the dollars are still spendable and thus someone will come calling to relieve us of them.
I'm not on these forums to discuss football, so I'll say that when you claim to be "lifting up the curtain" you should be a little more on the mark, and just leave it at that.
As far as "how spendable our dollars are," they're just as spendable as everyone else's, except other game's playerbases haven't gone on an active campaign to destroy their games' companies recently. Even though they're worth just as much as others' dollars, there are (in appearances) fewer of them, and they carry a higher risk in accumulating.
Originally posted by kefkah
I don't buy any woah as us, the future is bleak and we are the last of our kind mindset. If there is money to be made, a company will arise to meet the demand. Four teams? To be honest, I could give a rat's arse if its one or one hundred. It will just take one and I assure you that line for the position is forming around the corner. It may take time but such is the way of life.
So in summary, we have a need and the money to pay for the need. A company or companies will come to get it and they will provide a product that meets our needs.
I agree that there will be companies that will come along and offer games that this playerbase will find "acceptable." But I doubt any company is gunning to scoop up the players left in SWG limbo and I would be flabbergasted to see a company come out and offer one that was based on a high profile IP after what we've witnessed in the history of SWG.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
The negative press SOE has gotten over SWG is nothing compared to the negative press Rockstar Games has gotten over "hot coffee." Yet I don't see anybody giving up on Grand Theft Auto and clones anytime soon.
Nor do I see class action lawsuits filed like UO players did over server outages, yet that game is still going strong.
Do other companies want us? I'm sure they do, but that's not the real heart of the issue. The heart of the matter is do they want to design a game we will like the same as SWG?
SWG was deep and detailed. And I don't think that games will be getting any less deep and detailed. If anything, they are trying to figure out how to get the depth and detail, but do not really know how.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
Originally posted by Rekrul
This is my problem with "class-based" games. You can add all the diversity, but you are a class:
Level 50 orc priest (with bard taunt and warrior spell of defense)
Level 30 human fighter (with priest elite healing skill)
Level 40 elvish ranger (with xyz skills from other classes)
You cannot be human ranger (game says so)
In SWG you were YOU. Professions served your role. I like to fight (TK). When in towns, I like to make swoops (Master art), and since I can, I also ocassionally craft pups. If I find myself in med center, I'd help heal wounds (4xxx medic, or whatever it was).
What class am I? Healer? Warrior? Crafter? Am I ranger (I can do /medical forage, and use cdef for ranged attacks) Am I a tank, (plenty of melee in there), am I a wound healing doc? I have to be, since I have the ability to heal wounds.
A class based game, is where you are <level><class>. Anything else is just decoration. Will someone ask a healer priest to come tank? Hell, in SWG you could be TKM/Doc, and would perform both roles. But you could also go Pike/Swords/Fencer and be the "ultimate" tank. Or Defender, and once again a tank. Or pistoleer/smuggler/commando (or whatever the defense lines were) and tank with dodge. Hell, you could go as master armorsmith/suitable defense prof and tank.
This is what was lost.
Many Classes does not equal diversity. A class is a class is a class. Can you start as a warrior, then add ranged skills, drop part of warrior for healing, then take some crafting on the side, add some stealth skills, then drop part of ranged to get more in crafting, move back up warrior on the expense of ranged, etc. SWG allowed you to change and adapt. Class games cannot and will not be able to provide that. Nor do levels.
Amen.
This is what I have been arguing for a long time, class based games offer RESTRICTION. Non class based games like SWG, even though it did have a terrible grind - offered something all these other games cant: Allowing you to be you.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
No, the loyalty was covered. It's just that, IMO, the several month long forum disruption and the contacting many news/media outlets in an concious effort to ruin SOE's reputation is going to catch the attention of prospective devs rather than the same group's story of how much they went through at the hands of the developer waiting for delivery.
This isn't a question of, "Is the SWG fanbase any good?" The question is, "Why does no one want our money?" And this is the answer as I see it. The SWG playerbase really hasn't done a whole lot to help their own reputation as of late which was descimated with the playerbase's (justifiably) extreme reaction to the NGE.
I just don't think anyone's going to care about the playerbase's loyalty after they see the damage they've gone out of their way to do. I doubt that they're going to see that loyalty as being worth the risk. Though, all I can say for certainty is that I don't.
All dogs are capable of biting, but dogs that have a history of biting are usually put to sleep.
Just trying to be objective here,
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
No, the loyalty was covered. It's just that, IMO, the several month long forum disruption and the contacting many news/media outlets in an concious effort to ruin SOE's reputation is going to catch the attention of prospective devs rather than the same group's story of how much they went through at the hands of the developer waiting for delivery.
This isn't a question of, "Is the SWG fanbase any good?" The question is, "Why does no one want our money?" And this is the answer as I see it. The SWG playerbase really hasn't done a whole lot to help their own reputation as of late which was descimated with the playerbase's (justifiably) extreme reaction to the NGE.
I just don't think anyone's going to care about the playerbase's loyalty after they see the damage they've gone out of their way to do. I doubt that they're going to see that loyalty as being worth the risk. Though, all I can say for certainty is that I don't.
All dogs are capable of biting, but dogs that have a history of biting are usually put to sleep.
Just trying to be objective here,
-d
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
I still miss what we had and i wish pre cu was still around...but hey untill than RF online for this back stabbed jedi...
Emerz'on
No, the loyalty was covered. It's just that, IMO, the several month long forum disruption and the contacting many news/media outlets in an concious effort to ruin SOE's reputation is going to catch the attention of prospective devs rather than the same group's story of how much they went through at the hands of the developer waiting for delivery.
This isn't a question of, "Is the SWG fanbase any good?" The question is, "Why does no one want our money?" And this is the answer as I see it. The SWG playerbase really hasn't done a whole lot to help their own reputation as of late which was descimated with the playerbase's (justifiably) extreme reaction to the NGE.
I just don't think anyone's going to care about the playerbase's loyalty after they see the damage they've gone out of their way to do. I doubt that they're going to see that loyalty as being worth the risk. Though, all I can say for certainty is that I don't.
All dogs are capable of biting, but dogs that have a history of biting are usually put to sleep.
Just trying to be objective here,
-d
I still dont understand, maybe im not reading it right. What do you think should happen to a company who LIES to their customers, ignores their opinions and concerns, and whos product is consistenly broken? that is the exact opposite to how any successful business should treat their customers, but youdont think soe's name should be damaged in any way? You think they should just keep doing this and no one should say a word? So, basicaly everyone who payed money for a shitty product, was mislead into buying an expansion and just ignored for another market should shut up and like it and not make any fuss.
What do you think keeps companies from treating their customers like soe did on a regular basis? they dont want people bad mouthing them and keeping away potential new customers, which is what is happening to soe. which in my eyes, makes perfect sense, but maybe im just crazy.
Any company who knows how to run an mmo should not fear the swg customer base. In fact, they should want them, because i think they stuck around for alot more bugs, broken content and broken promises then alot of other people would.
For the Horde!
Yeah, the reason we're not connecting on this is because you think that the fact that there is a very good reason for every destructive thing that SWG fans have done makes a difference in whether or not they're are going to be seen as "worth going after." And I don't think it does.
I think any developer is going to look at what has happened and say, "If we do anything to piss these people off it's going to cause a major headache for us the likes of which we have never seen, do we really need that?" instead of, "Say, as long as we don't act like SOE these seem like people who will really appreciate our style game!"
I'm not discussing the question of who deserves what treatment. I'm just exploring why "No One Wants Our Money."
Does that help?
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
I would like to point out Terrell Owens. Terrible teammate, worst whiner in the history of the sport, media nightmare and a soap opera that runs 24/7. After the Philly debacle, you would think that no team would touch the man with a 10' cattleprod.
However no less than 4 teams tried to land him. Why? Because of his talent and skill on the field. As much as I loathe the man - he is one of the best WRs in the game today if not the best. The same thing could be said about SWG Exiles.
No matter how many forums we fill up, protests we launch or funny doctored photos we make - there is going to be a company that sees the staggering number of us (as we are quite visable and would easily go to one location or another for a headcount) and then do some math. The resulting dollar figure would be too much for anyone to ignore. Its an instant fanbase - a cash wild horse that just needs to be reigned in and handled correctly. With the right CS and dev interaction, the majority of us are placated. Hell, we secretly are eternal optimists as we keep checking back in hopes something changes. Thats devotion that no system can teach or buy.
In short, our mass and money are like Terrell Owen's skills. We can't be overlooked and there is always someone out there who will take a risk. I think that STO will vie for this action - they just need a bit more time to get off of the ground.
Hi, I'd like to purchase an SWG 2 please. The MMO (world simulation, similar to pre-cu) version, not an FPS NGE suck version. Thanks. Here's my 15/month.
Yep. That's about my feelings on it.
look SOE has stuffed swg up im only playing it until another mmorpg game is releaed that i am watching, one of them '9 dragons' the only one thing i can say they did well was their player built cities otherwise THEY ARE HOPELESS period.
The Motherland Burns Strong...
I'm an Eagles fan my whole life, a SWG exile, and WOW hater(Quaility gaem just don't like Fantasy). I am lucky to make it out alive last year.
In this day and age having to say the thing I am about to say is just rediculous. How many business' these days have a tough time finding customers and spend millions on advertising just to get and retain customers. Here is an ENTIRE community currently an untapped, waiting, willing, and an able customer base that wants to spend money on a game and we have NOTHING. Sure things look promising 1 maybe 2 years from now(Star Trek, Stargate Worlds) but until then you are not getting our $20ish per month per person and there is AT LEAST 200,000 of us. THAT IS $108,000,000 INCLUDING GAME COST AND YOU ARE JUST THROWING IT AWAY. That is more than some coutries earn over 2 years.
To Game developers, I make good money and WANT to pay for a SCI-FI game for a very Long time. But I do not like fanatasy I like good old fashion Sci-fi get me a good product and I will play and pay.
Yeah, the reason we're not connecting on this is because you think that the fact that there is a very good reason for every destructive thing that SWG fans have done makes a difference in whether or not they're are going to be seen as "worth going after." And I don't think it does.
I think any developer is going to look at what has happened and say, "If we do anything to piss these people off it's going to cause a major headache for us the likes of which we have never seen, do we really need that?" instead of, "Say, as long as we don't act like SOE these seem like people who will really appreciate our style game!"
I'm not discussing the question of who deserves what treatment. I'm just exploring why "No One Wants Our Money."
Does that help?
-d
I would respectfully disagree. The fanbase went to the media outlets looong after the game was released. They were pissed off that they had their whole gaming experience (granted TOS say game experience may change, but what they did is open for debate still) changed and had almost 3 years worth of effort and time flushed down the toilet. It was the lack of communication (IMO their side faild miserably at talking to the player base to start out with) that created this whole mess. The players continually reported bugs and issues, and what they wanted to see in the game. They also kept complaining that the test servers were not left up long enough. The first CU was not the ones the players voted for (the first and LAST time SOE had a poll about what players thought of the changes) and yet they got the one no one wanted. This information was wholely ignored by SOE/LA. I will concede that the market for SWG fans is unique, but give them what they want and they will spend the moeny time and time again for it. Blaming the issues the game had on the player base is nonsense. They are the ones who released it half broke. They are the ones who didn't put enough resources in place to maintain the game. I can pretty much gaurantee that had they not pushed out expansion after expansion, and instead concentrated on fixing the core game (liek they are doing now, albeit to little to late) then they might not be in the pickle they are in.
Just my opinion though... I could be wrong.
Player of SWG since publish 1 - Ended when the NGE came out.
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Just out of interest folks, how many MMORPG's have you tried since leaving the steaming pile of sh1t that is the NGE? Personally I have tried:
1. CoV - Guild moved there from SWG Bria, however, I only lasted 2 months. Have never been into comics, superheros etc and I just couldnt really get into the game.
2. WoW - Utter garbage, lasted the 1 month trial. Community was absolutely awful and also the fantasy setting just really isnt my thing.
3. EVE Online - Boring as hell, NO GROUND GAME, enough said.
4. Silkroad Online - Pretty good game for free, however, I was just playing this to get a feel for a Korean MMORPG before RF was released.
5. RF Online - Playing this currently and enjoying it, pvp is great fun on this game, the CW's are a blast.
All that said I would drop RF like a hot potato if SWG was to revert to Pre-CU (never going to happen though, I know
). Hell, I would even start all over again if need be.
SWG was my first MMORPG and in its Pre-CU form was the best game that I have ever played, never mind the best MMORPG.
MMORPG History:
Playing - EVE Online.
Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion.
Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9).
Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
Well here are a few of the ones that I can remember I tried so many looking for a replacement:
1. COV/COH - It was fun for a short time. After the jetpacks from xmas were removed I quit.
2. FOM - OMG what a piece of utter garbage. Was looking for a sci-fi replacement and this is definately not it.
3. Tantra - This is like WoW only in a different context.
4. RF Online - This to is a cross between WoW and possibly Lineage with the anime graphics.
5. Horizons - Now this one is promising but it just was not star wars.
6. Neocron2 - Definately not a replacement for a sci-fi game it was horrid.
7. DaOC - I hated the interface and it was cheesy graphics and play style.
8. LineageII - Currently playing this one. Its pvp all the time and you can be killed at any minute and the grind is horrendous when you get to the higher levels. Crafting all done by dwarfs and definately not complex like star wars. The economy is way out of whack. You may have thought things were bad at times in SWG well let me tell you this would put that to shame. Its no wonder there are so many ppl that buy credits just to get gear in this game. People complained about AFK grinding in SWG well in this game they are called farmers/bots and they run around with names like ttjjksleo and thats all they do 24/7. Its a business to them.
I will continue with L2 until something else comes along but my hopes are that it will be the game I once loved and pathetic as it may sound devoted all of my spare time to. Housework went undone, bills were put off lol. Heck I even played at work (being in IT made it easy to do).
Someone out there that has the cash to start a game like we once had PLEASE LISTEN to our pleas. We are tired of hack and slash and no depth. Bring back some complexity and an awsome crafting system.
World of Starcraft.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofstarcraft/news.html?sid=6146918
Ive tried COH, EQ2, and WOW. All of them bored me to tears almost immediately.
I know personally, I would have kept playing forever. As crazy at it may sound, I would gladly pay several times the original monthly fee to be able to play my characters againg in a pre-cu world. Before you scoff, I have been blowing so much more money than that since the NGE. This game was my main source of entertainment pre-NGE, and it really was a cost saver. Now im going out to clubs constantly, drinking nearly alcoholically, and going on shopping sprees for shit I dont want. Not to mention all the games I keep buying in hopes of finding a suitable replacement.
Damn you Julio....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Alright guys. The time has come. This SWG craze has gone far enough. The devils at SOE will not get away with this! Im going to character creation, and creating a new character to combat these bastards. Watch out Smedly...Im kicking your ass first!
Character Sheet:
Name: Steelarm
Race: Gamer
Class: Poster
Level: 100
Skills: Master Poster, Master Arguer, Master MMO gamer
Weapons: Mouse and Keyboard
Armor: Classic SWG
Combat Log:
HP/MP 1000/1000
You hit Smedly for 500 points of arguing damage!
You dodge Smedly's rebuttal!
You hit Smedly for 500 points of posting damage!
You block Smedly's cute and witty post!
Steelarm011: Patch THIS!
You execute a bring up Pre CU in your post and hit Smedly for 1000 points in damage! Critical hit!
Smedly calls for help!
Smedly dies!
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
You do realize that even with many of it's "mass" having multiple accounts (some claiming as many as 20), even at their peek they barely got SWG over 300k subs. If they're provided maultiple alts per server, they yield even far fewer subs than that.
I just can't agree with the comparison between SWG players and Terrel Owens. Owens' skill kept teams interested despite the trouble his attitude caused, Pre-CU SWG "mass and money" couldn't keep interest before they even started trouble. Only 4 teams out of 30 are desperate enough to bring T.O. on board, what chance have SWG fans have?
And before you say, "Well, SOE was just too stupid to realize what they had with the Pre-CU," where are all the skill-based, sandbox, virtual world games that were created in an effort to steal all that "mass and money" away from SOE?
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
I would respectfully disagree. The fanbase went to the media outlets looong after the game was released. They were pissed off that they had their whole gaming experience (granted TOS say game experience may change, but what they did is open for debate still) changed and had almost 3 years worth of effort and time flushed down the toilet. It was the lack of communication (IMO their side faild miserably at talking to the player base to start out with) that created this whole mess. The players continually reported bugs and issues, and what they wanted to see in the game. They also kept complaining that the test servers were not left up long enough. The first CU was not the ones the players voted for (the first and LAST time SOE had a poll about what players thought of the changes) and yet they got the one no one wanted. This information was wholely ignored by SOE/LA. I will concede that the market for SWG fans is unique, but give them what they want and they will spend the moeny time and time again for it. Blaming the issues the game had on the player base is nonsense. They are the ones who released it half broke. They are the ones who didn't put enough resources in place to maintain the game. I can pretty much gaurantee that had they not pushed out expansion after expansion, and instead concentrated on fixing the core game (liek they are doing now, albeit to little to late) then they might not be in the pickle they are in.
Just my opinion though... I could be wrong.
Player of SWG since publish 1 - Ended when the NGE came out.
Xcathdra
I don't think anyone in this thread is saying the fans should be blamed for the problems in the game, or that SOE did anything right since launch.
What I'm saying is that when SWG fans attacked the comopany very publicly over issues they had with the game it was quite possible that they scared off other dev companies from creating the same type of game, thus creating the perception that "No One Wants Our Money."
I put forth that game developers might be afraid to approach a playerbase that has shown a history of backlashing violently and all people seem to retort is that the violent backlash was entirely SOE's fault. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. I would think that every developer knows that eventually they're going to make a decision with the game that is not going to be popular and as such, the more prudent of them are going to try to avoid aquiring a playerbase that will react the way SWG's has been known to.
Yes, I know that the SWG playerbase put up with a helluva a lot of crap before they finally smacked SOE back, but unfortunately none of that stands out as much as the CU or NGE, so it's likely that the loyalty will go unnoticed or be overshadowed.
I, too, could very well be wrong but it seems a plausible answer to why "No One Wants Our Money."
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
hehe, duggo I see your point but your comments make me think of developer studios as a bunch of 10 year olds going "Jee, those are bullies and not very nice, better stay away from them so nothing evil ever happen to us!"
They are grown ups handling a business right? (Well sometimes you get you doubts...)
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
Here's a different perspective to chew on.
Assume a company needs to improve its performance. Looking at options, they realize that much of their work could be outsourced off-shore. People off-shore will work for $2 per hour, while your current workforce requires $10. Considering the cost of migration and operating costs, your new cost per worker will be $7.
So the company decides to lay off 74% of their current employees, in favor of saving $3 per. Overnight, 6500 people find themself out of work. They didn't do anything, they were doing great job. Some were senior employees, with over 20 years with the company. But now, they are redundant.
In the quarterly report, the company publishes profit increase of 12.6%, and stocks grow by 9%. Other companies, trying to cash in on their success, look at what has happened. What they see, is that outsourcing off-shore is a quick, easy, efficient and reliable way to increase quarterly performance. Over the period of 3 years, 20-40% of current workforce in the same industry is let go in favor of outsourcing.
And one of the people that got laid off says: "Nobody wants our expertise?"
See the problem? Players do not exist. MMOs (do not be fooled, any corporation/business MUST operate the same way) must not have players. They have subscriptions plans, subscriber turnaround and quarterly and monthly profit reports.
And if you believe that some MMOs actually listen to players or consider them, answer this: "Is Microsoft evil, and Google good?"
You are overlooking and simplifying some the components to the situation. Look at the history of business in general particularly in this current day and age. Its follow the leader - WoW currently is the leader and its now the most likely to be imitated. People see the word 6 million and soon enough companies want that golden ring - even companies who formerly had nothing to do with the industry. Sandbox was a different concept and had it been properly done - it would have been emulated as well. Problem was that it wasn't handled with even the most remote sense of business savy.
Are you scoffing at 300k subs or the playerbase who mave have alt'ed some of those subs? Is this a pittance to you? It may be to WoW but I assure you that 300k worth of subs still is a heavyweight in this industry. Was reading an article in a business ezine talking about Second Life's sub numbers which were much lower that this meager 300k and it was viewed as a growing success. Mathematically 300k is enough to substain any normal mmoprg and IS - I repeat - an instant playerbase. Hell half of that is a playerbase. Enough to funnel capitol into any normal mmorpg to keep it alive for quite some time. SOE just wanted more and took about it the wrong way (as anyone in the industry will now tell you). Again, it may not be 300k of people but its a playerbase that is capable of providing that amount and will do so happily if their needs are met. Past as you pointed out proves that.
Do you actually think that Owners give a crap about Terrell Owen's skills? No - they don't. Let me lift the curtain up to show you the wizard underneath. They want him because with him they can win. Winning means more airtime, playoffs, superbowls and all of this equals the MAIN reason they are in the business - Money. Money makes the world go round. It pervades the universe and binds everything together. Games aren't made because they, the builders, want to have fun. Movies are rarely made because the story must be told. They are made to make money. To take our money to be exact. So while our money may require listening to us moan - I assure you the dollars are still spendable and thus someone will come calling to relieve us of them.
I don't buy any woah as us, the future is bleak and we are the last of our kind mindset. If there is money to be made, a company will arise to meet the demand. Four teams? To be honest, I could give a rat's arse if its one or one hundred. It will just take one and I assure you that line for the position is forming around the corner. It may take time but such is the way of life.
So in summary, we have a need and the money to pay for the need. A company or companies will come to get it and they will provide a product that meets our needs.
So in summary, we have a need and the money to pay for the need. A company or companies will come to get it and they will provide a product that meets our needs.
Can they? Look at the waterworld comment in this article.
The investment might be greater than what population can support. The upfront investment of large, AAA-class MMORPGs is measured in tens of millions of dollars. That is the money spent before the game is launched.
Now consider this: majority of mmo income comes from boxed copies sold. Subscriptions, once active, will cover the running costs, plus after some time add to the income.
Lets assume the production costs $30 mil upfront. A population of 400k buys the game during first month after launch, peaking the subscriptions at 200k during 4 months after launch. During these 4 months, an additional 150k copies are sold, and subscriptions settle at 125k. A copy costs $50, subscription is $15.
The boxed copies account for $27mil, subscriptions bring in another 2.5 mil. And these values are not tax adjusted.
In 4 months, you haven't even covered the initial investment, let alone made enough to cover upkeep.
The figures above are real, for mmo with succesful launch, and typical budget. 125k subscriptions is actually a large number, and the assumption is made, that average subscription length will be 3 months and subscriber turn-over rate 8%. Most games will start with much smaller initial sales, and considerably smaller subscription numbers. GW for example took 6 or 7 months to get 1 mil copies sold (no subscription).
Most of today's *succesful* MMORPGs would be happy with the number above, most have less.
WoW is not a representative sample.
Good points and alone by themselves - these numbers would deter any company away from even trying to make an MMORPG unless it followed status quo. But the companies I have worked for and from my personal experience (which has been faulty before and so I try and keep my cup empty) tend to think long term. In any business startup, it is assumed that you that you will be working at a loss for easily a year. No company with a realistic view of income could ever expect to comp theirs startup back in four months, six months or even a year.
Thus, I believe, that MMORPGs are like companies. You see them as an investment and should be attended to as such. Population issues are solved by expansions, added content and long term reputation that is provided by word of mouth. Eve is the poster child of the correct way to do things. Yes, the game isn't for everyone but it is an excellent product that receives the support of its makers. It was a niche market and through time and proper innovations - its population is growing and is stable. Thus would be the fate of a company that comes forward to meet our need and handles our expectations correctly. Is Eve every going to overtake WoW? No. However, has the company started to generate a profit? I am sure that they have and will continue to do so for years to come as long as they keep up their excellent reputation and keep the fanbase happy by not switching the game over into something entirely different midstream.
To save anyone the effort of finding the flaws in my argument - let me point it out. I used the words I believe. I am not always right and some would tell you that I may almost always be wrong but again, I provided the reasons for why I see someone making a game and targetting us as a playerbase. Profitability can be attained and our needs met. We are not unrealistic, we are patient, we only require certain components to believe in and we are willing to pay for them. You do not to be a Walmart to make money. You need only to think longterm, make your product or line fresh and treat your clients with respect.
I can't really take someone's reprimand of oversimplifying a situation seriously when they try to equate the SWG playerbase with a football player. Sorry.
All you're doing when revealing the complexity that the industry is "follow the leader" is supporting the idea that the SWG playerbase isn't that attractive to future MMO development projects.
I wouldn't scoff at 300k subs, but that was what it had at it's peak with many multiple accounts, and it was already falling off that many before the CU was even announced. If they limit the number of characters players may have per server to one (like SOE did with SWG) they might achieve 300k subs with this playerbase. If they provide players with several alts per server they would like get far, far less than that. To think that if you build a game for this crowd and you'll instantly have a 300k paying subscriptions is folly. To assume that you'll instantly have 150k is risky.
I'm not on these forums to discuss football, so I'll say that when you claim to be "lifting up the curtain" you should be a little more on the mark, and just leave it at that.
As far as "how spendable our dollars are," they're just as spendable as everyone else's, except other game's playerbases haven't gone on an active campaign to destroy their games' companies recently. Even though they're worth just as much as others' dollars, there are (in appearances) fewer of them, and they carry a higher risk in accumulating.
I agree that there will be companies that will come along and offer games that this playerbase will find "acceptable." But I doubt any company is gunning to scoop up the players left in SWG limbo and I would be flabbergasted to see a company come out and offer one that was based on a high profile IP after what we've witnessed in the history of SWG.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
The negative press SOE has gotten over SWG is nothing compared to the negative press Rockstar Games has gotten over "hot coffee." Yet I don't see anybody giving up on Grand Theft Auto and clones anytime soon.
Nor do I see class action lawsuits filed like UO players did over server outages, yet that game is still going strong.
Do other companies want us? I'm sure they do, but that's not the real heart of the issue. The heart of the matter is do they want to design a game we will like the same as SWG?
SWG was deep and detailed. And I don't think that games will be getting any less deep and detailed. If anything, they are trying to figure out how to get the depth and detail, but do not really know how.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE