Originally posted by wolfmann I'm just going to say: For those of you yodeling and jumping for joy over a FPS system, please go try the free trial of SWG, then check out Neocron 2(Might have free trial). Then come back here and speak about needing change in MMORPG combat.
I have played neocron2 for a bit more than a year. When I finally left, it was not because I disliked FPS-like game systems. It was -because the game was still buggy in many annoying ways, over a year after launch -because it had WAY too much lag for a FPS -and finally because the system was in some ways inferior to a real FPS like Counterstrike.
Let me elaborate on the last one. You can shoot at an enemy only if he is mostly in the open and the system gives you a hitbox. From that I conclude that there is not a real ballistics simulation, but only a simple check if the line of sight between you and the center(?) of your opponent is open. As a result, using terrain for cover is a rather inaccurate business and not nearly as viable as in real shooters. Which is a real dumbing down compared to Counterstrike et al.
So if Reakktor got their code sorted out and the combat improved to what I expect from a FPS, I would happily resubmit to Neocron2. But I consider it more likely that someone else will get it right first, thus drawing away the rest of the Neocron playerbase and killing the game off. Of course, most people here expect Icarus Studios to do that with FE
I want gear and stats to matter a lot. What I don't want are random "to/to miss" simulated die rolls to determine whether I hit or miss. I want hitting and missing as well avoiding to be based on real aiming and movement and the ability to use objects and terrain as cover in a "you didn't get hit because you were behind the tree and the tree actually stood between you and he actual gunfire" kind of way. Stats and gear should only determine how much damage you can deal and take as well as how fast you move, etc which ideally would be a huge factor. But having stats/gear and autoaim/targeting at the same time means guaranteed pwnage for high lvl players. Remove most of the autoaiming and targeting and random "to hit" systems and you remove the guarantee. This makes combat less predictible and more exciting. In other words, twitch combat where gear and stats weigh heavily only in terms of mobility, utility, damage dealing damage mitigation and methods of dealing damage.
I think a ballistic simulation with (additional) random inaccuracy that depends on stats would be viable too. Most shooters already have such a system to model the accuracy of guns. A sniper rifle, for instance, will be very accurate while a submachinegun will stray its bullets over a much wider area.
So why not add a similar inaccuracy, based on char level, on top of the weapon inaccuracy? The results would look like this: -Newbie char with crap gun: poor aim, but he can still hit you if he gets close enough. Beware of assassination at close range! Playerskill would hardly matter in this case, as the char and the lousy gun will ruin even a skilled player's results at a distance. -Newbie char with good gun: somewhat better, but limited by his stats. Playerskill is semi-important. -Veteran char with crap gun: like newbie with good gun -Veteran char with good gun: Here the inaccuracy imposed by the game (char and weapon) becomes very small and playerskill dominates.
Advantage: A real ballistics simulation can be used for all levels and weapons, only a few parameters for the degree of inaccuracy have to change between weapons and char stats. So no more stupid crap like missing big targets when you are standing directly in front of them.
What some might consider a disadvantage: In the Endgame, the game turns into a full-blown playerskill contest.
wolfmann, you have my congratulations. You are officially the first person I've ever heard call SWG an FPS. I've played SWG since launch, and the most twitch action you'll ever need in that game is to click the corpse before your team members do so you get the loot. All they did to SWG was make it so you don't lock on anymore, you actually have to click your target to perform an attack. Blaster bolts still home in, you can still have a rocket blow up in your face and only take 2dmg because you're wearing Blast resistant armor, and enemies still stand in statuesque stillness while you blase the hell out of them. SWG is about as close to being an FPS as the Buddhism is to being Catholic. Everyone who is griping and saying "Well if you want to play and FPS, go play Counter-Strike." No. You go play one of the hundreds upon thousands of turn based MMOs that are out there, and leave our game alone. We wanted an MMOFPS, and now Icarus is going to give us one, get over it. If you want, after FE comes out, I will give you my SWG account and you can have all my Ub3R-1337 gear and go kill a pissed off, 12-ton godzilla rejects with an axe. I, on the other hand, will be enjoying a truly original game, where skill means more than buying Def+222 Golden-Leet Armor and the Killer Mace of Doomed Death. Well, thats what I have to say on the subject. I'm going to go put on my Flame retardant suit, because I know all of the anti-FPS folks are gonna come back at me with shit like "ARGH!!!11 FP$ is t3h SuXx0r, u R Gae B-cuz U xPres ur 0p1n10n, Ha hA, i R G0d, I pWn jo0!!1"
ARGH!!!11 FP$ is t3h SuXx0r, u R Gae B-cuz U xPres ur 0p1n10n, Ha hA, i R G0d, I pWn joo!!! Take that foul spawn of FPS! Back into the arena of Quake that spawned thee. In the name of Dull , Boring , and Lame I command thee BACK !!!
What you suggest would make for a great game but I feel it's just time to make a quality mmorpg that caters more thoroughly to twitch gamers that really want to rely on their player skills instead of random luck and near guaranteed victory to whoever had the highest stats. I like your ideas but using those is only one step removed from the old traditional everquest/warcraft/name-of-traditional-mmorpg-click-and- wait-combat-style-game-here battle system. We already have lots of games now that render player skill moot with over a dozen new ones on the way. But if they did use your suggestion I'd still play and enjoy it..because, as I said, it's one step removed...and that is a good thing.
Look..this game is going to be 1000 times better cause you move youre char and control your char completely... which makes pvp much much more fun..i hate the point and click stuff...its everywhere. the reason i got into RYL1 was cause i didnt have to use point and click if i didnt want to.. i had to actually control my char and i had plan my skills.. most the time you click a char... wait wait... click ability...click ablity... and so on till one of you were dead... this is going to give it a fast pace action intense feel..... its going to be amazing.. you have to aim and move move move so you dont get hit...
anyone againts this is just scared that their physical skills are not up to par..i love in game skills effecting the out come.. but i think it should be a mix.... char build/gaming skill
Has anyone stopped to think why WOW is so popular compared to the other games? Why Fall Out series was so successfull? FPS is silly, as is perma death, when one considers such things as the internet connection or the computer itself. If you have the best equipment you could still have problems with a simple thing as the weather. Finally you come to the real problem economics, people will vote with their dollars. Blizzard is making lots of $ and I wonder why? The end result for any product or game is $ or the company will not be able to sustain the game. No matter what kind of Niche the few loud players want. So my vote would be with you admirker444
Stedfast, I don't understand your examples. WoW is popular because it is based on a line of games that have a strong following, and is easily accessible to casual players. Fallout is popular because of the great story and engine. That being said, just because Fallout is great and is turn based, doesn't mean a game has to be turn based to be great. You didn't list Half Life 2, or the Unreal series... they have easily made as much money as WoW and Fallout.
Maybe what you want is a Fallout game that is playable online and can be completely turn based. I would play that game in a heartbeat, because I love turn based games. However, that seems to be the wrong direction for FE to go. FE is pushing the limits on current MMOs in so many areas (sound, environment, physics, customization), and I hope they also push the limits on the current MMO combat system.
The current turn based model for MMOs does compensate well for disconnects and lag, but should we cripple a game because in some areas, high speed internet isn't available? Should we cripple a game because, in very rare occassions, someone can be in the middle of a thunder storm and lose connection?
Hell no. However, I agree that permadeath is silly, because of the reasons you mentioned. No matter how good a games net code is, you can still lose connection to something completely out of your control. Having a good internet connection, though, is somewhat within your control. I understand that some countries have bad latency when connecting to other countries, but we shouldn't stifle the potential of a game because of this.
What you say about niche games is also true... they will never make as much money as a mainstream game. But is that really the goal of every developer? Maybe I am misinterpreting the actions of Icarus, but it seems to me they care more about the quality of their game than a deadline... more about their vision than the profit. It will be developers like this that push the envelope in gaming, not mainstream publishers.
I say go for it Icarus. Give us something we've never seen. Don't sacrifice innovative gameplay for mainstream acceptance.
Originally posted by sinoth What you say about niche games is also true... they will never make as much money as a mainstream game. But is that really the goal of every developer?
I'd hate to break your bubble, but every single developer out there is in it for the profit. Icarus may be experimenting with new stuff, but in the end it's all about the cash. (Listening to players while building their new game is a good way to get more customers [equals more cash] tho.)
Originally posted by Stedfast Finally you come to the real problem economics, people will vote with their dollars. Blizzard is making lots of $ and I wonder why? The end result for any product or game is $ or the company will not be able to sustain the game. No matter what kind of Niche the few loud players want. So my vote would be with you admirker444
True enough, but shooters like Counterstrike are quite popular too. So it is worth a try to bring them to the MMORPG world. And as I said above, games like Neocron are not quite the real thing. Some more attempts at combining the genres are underway now, and somewhere between Fallen Earth, Huxley and Twilight Wars we will see a game that gets it right. I think the niche will turn out to be not quite as small as you believe.
Originally posted by ordeith I'd hate to break your bubble, but every single developer out there is in it for the profit.
Not true. Of course huge companies like EA are concerned only with dollars and cents, but the term "developer" is not constrained to this type of company. How do you explain games that are released for free? How do you explain mod makers that create a gaming experience for no charge? Some developers see that quality and innovation are greater than profit.
I probably should have quoted this but Ive been drinking. Im not sure how long some of you have been following fallen earth, "myself only about a year now" but from the standpoint of Sinoth (no dickstucking intended) this guys been following FE alot more than most and doesn't just throw out mindless opinions. Just from the amount of time put into it, the detail and the attitude involved in the answering of personal emails, Icarus doesn't mimic in any way the attitude and swagger of the money grubbing game giants like sony and EA.
These guys are gamers making a game FOR gamers not bank accounts.
They even said way back when, that they were making a game "for gamers, by gamers." I think that really hits the note, since you get feeling *sometimes* that the developers of some games are a million miles away from the players.
This game I am certain will be different now - I've been following it for about a year and a half, and I can only see positive things - things that only gamers would have been really in tune to.
From their site: Happy customers = $$. You may view that as negatory, but it isn't. They make you happy, they get your reward.
I totally disagree with the notion that just because one thing is popular that means it should be the only thing people do. Admittedly there seem to be a lot more people who tend to think that just rehashing the same thing 20 times over is the best thing sliced bread. It doesn't mean something new shouldn't be tried. Heck by some of the very reasoning on this thread there should not be MMO's at all since they were not "popular" and weren't what the masses were clamoring for at the time.
As for the money thing ,, yep the bottom line is money. personally I am sick of money being the only line when it comes to MMO's. Be nice for a change to see quality enter in as one of the lines, or immersion , or GASP a dynamic world. Instead so far I have seen companies hype the heck out of a game , promise the moon, the sun, and the stars , spend tons of money on fanfairs , E3, office decorations , etc before game is even released, and then have the gall to complain about how much the games cost to make. Then when it is released and it is lacking the depth promised , or the land to explore that was promised , or any number of things and people wonder what happened to the great game they were supposed to get. Ohh yeah it went for lobser dinners , E3 babes and various other things that have nothign at all to do with the actual game itself.
What also needs to be taken into consideration is that in Fallen Earth ranged combat will most likely be the dominant form of combat. FPS handles ranged combat very well. And I would never call Star Wars Galaxies a fps mmo. What they tried to do was force a fps style interface into a game set up for a traditional style of mmo. It obviously doesn't work very well. The game was not designed for that system.
In the end most arguements like this are completely pointless. The devs are making the game a fps. Unless the changed the style of combat long ago or they are going to push the release of the game to years from now, the combat will be fps.
Good thoughts Bronski. They are making a FPS hybrid if I recall, I'm too lazy lol to look up all the dev posts to see exactly what's been said, but I'm glad they're taking a chance to make something different, there are so many "traditional" mmos out there if you want a lock-on and spam a macro for ten seconds, go ahead, I'm ready for something else.
One thing I didn't see mentioned, forgive me if I missed it, was instead of better gear giving a chance to miss, it modifies the damage. This is obvious I think, and where the skill vs. gear comes in. If you're not on target, you have a zero percent change of hitting or doing damage, unless the weapon does area damage, like a nade or rocket might. If you're on, you hit, but if you have a crappy gun, and they have the best armor, it'll be like shooting a bb at a tank, no real effect. If you've got a freaking cannon, and they have a piece of leather for a chest piece, they die, hopefully quite quickly.
As for style of game play, will range or melee be dominant? I think both. It will likely be much easier to find and make melee weapons (bats w/ nails etc) and also you won't need ammo. If they make this pretty real, which I think they are, especially early on, technology (weapons and ammo) should be hard to find. So guns especially good ones will be a luxury. Later in the game when they become more common, most people will likely have better melee skills than ranged, because that's what their chars been using most. If ammo is rare, or expensive, and you must shoot your gun to level wth it, then it's going to be tough to level ranged. Also, if you look at the screenshots, most chars have a melee weapon, but only a few have guns, and even the ones with guns also always have a melee weapon.
In regard to the gear vs skill arguement, I hope that skill plays a large part in your overall combat effectiveness. However, I do believe gear also should play a large role but should not make you god just because you have the "best" out there. That is one thing i find silly in many games.
I personally think the gear you use should compliment your skills. If you aren't a great shot, then get a weapon that helps you hit stuff even if you stink at aiming (i.e. a shotgun or machine gun). When I played the space game in SWG this is what you did. You taliored your ships loadout to make up for your weaknesses, enhance your strengths, and to suit the situation you are going to go into.
And if you don't believe fps games have strategy in them then your experience online with them is most likely limited to time spent on public servers with the idiots. When you see a team of people working together in games like Day of Defeat, you'll see how much strategy is involved.
Obviously there isn't much strategy involved in what your attacks are but it pushes the strategy into where you are and who is with you. Personally I find that strategy to be a lot of fun. When I played Battlefield 2 with a team of people who are trying to work together it is some of the most fun i have ever had.
*EDIT*
One last thing. Many people have said mmofpsrpg hybrid type games don't work. I'd personally say that none have worked yet. I'm thinking the FE devs will prove that opinion wrong.
I am looking forward to this game a lot but... I dont really like shooters as I am a online gamer. I have played lots of MMO and no of them have been FPS. Maybe the change will be good, maybe it will be bad but personally I would like it if targets were locked and you can do special attacks yet you could still move behind cover etc!
I had some of the best times on few ocasions when me and few friends organised LAN partys last couple of years. We mostly played CounterStrike and Starcraft, and man, no matter what the fighting style is, there is nothing that can compare to the feeling when YOU beat HIM.
I'm looking forward to trying this game, because it sounds like a realy deep and versatile FPS multyplayer with story and chance to evolve that one character you can get attachet too. I also understand the "autoattack people", it gives more that RP feeling, but claiming there can be only one playstyle is just silly.
Anyways, I'm glad there will be a game that looks this promesing and promisses to be based on skill, rather then loot.
Originally posted by admriker444 bleh I just hate FPS systems. They dont appeal to me at all. I just tried Face of Mankind, another FPS MMO. The game has 3rd and 1st person views however when entering combat mode you MUST switch to a 1st person view. I much rather have a system of auto locking with special attacks. Whats so great about pointing and clicking honestly ? I see no strategy involved in that or no thought process. I want to out-think my opponent with the right combo of specials to defeat him. Being able to hold my mouse cursor a little better than the other guy or a better internet connection hardly qualifies as exciting to me Also, FPS systems really make gear pointless. What does it matter if I have 60% armor resists and a rifle that does 800-950 damage if I can't point and hit my target ? The enemy could have totally crummy newb gear and still beat me if he can aim better than me. The whole point of a MMO is to improve my avatar via levels, skills, weapons, armor, etc but all that is moot in a FPS system. In the end, it comes down to a physical skill (my right hand) I'll still give FE a shot because I like their devs and the setting of the game but honestly I probably wont last long in it. I also liked the concepts in Auto Assault and Face of Mankind but I just cant get past that mindless FPS stuff
I don't think twitch-skill is the only factor in combat. It'll come down to equipment, hard-coded skills, strategy and twitch skills.
Comments
LIOTARD - Laggy Itemcentric Online Timesink And Repetitvely Dull
DRESS - Dull Rekilling of Every Static Spawn
When I finally left, it was not because I disliked FPS-like game systems. It was
-because the game was still buggy in many annoying ways, over a year after launch
-because it had WAY too much lag for a FPS
-and finally because the system was in some ways inferior to a real FPS like Counterstrike.
Let me elaborate on the last one. You can shoot at an enemy only if he is mostly in the open and the system gives you a hitbox. From that I conclude that there is not a real ballistics simulation, but only a simple check if the line of sight between you and the center(?) of your opponent is open.
As a result, using terrain for cover is a rather inaccurate business and not nearly as viable as in real shooters. Which is a real dumbing down compared to Counterstrike et al.
So if Reakktor got their code sorted out and the combat improved to what I expect from a FPS, I would happily resubmit to Neocron2. But I consider it more likely that someone else will get it right first, thus drawing away the rest of the Neocron playerbase and killing the game off.
Of course, most people here expect Icarus Studios to do that with FE
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I think a ballistic simulation with (additional) random inaccuracy that depends on stats would be viable too. Most shooters already have such a system to model the accuracy of guns. A sniper rifle, for instance, will be very accurate while a submachinegun will stray its bullets over a much wider area.
So why not add a similar inaccuracy, based on char level, on top of the weapon inaccuracy? The results would look like this:
-Newbie char with crap gun: poor aim, but he can still hit you if he gets close enough. Beware of assassination at close range! Playerskill would hardly matter in this case, as the char and the lousy gun will ruin even a skilled player's results at a distance.
-Newbie char with good gun: somewhat better, but limited by his stats. Playerskill is semi-important.
-Veteran char with crap gun: like newbie with good gun
-Veteran char with good gun: Here the inaccuracy imposed by the game (char and weapon) becomes very small and playerskill dominates.
Advantage:
A real ballistics simulation can be used for all levels and weapons, only a few parameters for the degree of inaccuracy have to change between weapons and char stats. So no more stupid crap like missing big targets when you are standing directly in front of them.
What some might consider a disadvantage:
In the Endgame, the game turns into a full-blown playerskill contest.
Comments?
wolfmann, you have my congratulations. You are officially the first person I've ever heard call SWG an FPS. I've played SWG since launch, and the most twitch action you'll ever need in that game is to click the corpse before your team members do so you get the loot. All they did to SWG was make it so you don't lock on anymore, you actually have to click your target to perform an attack. Blaster bolts still home in, you can still have a rocket blow up in your face and only take 2dmg because you're wearing Blast resistant armor, and enemies still stand in statuesque stillness while you blase the hell out of them. SWG is about as close to being an FPS as the Buddhism is to being Catholic. Everyone who is griping and saying "Well if you want to play and FPS, go play Counter-Strike." No. You go play one of the hundreds upon thousands of turn based MMOs that are out there, and leave our game alone. We wanted an MMOFPS, and now Icarus is going to give us one, get over it. If you want, after FE comes out, I will give you my SWG account and you can have all my Ub3R-1337 gear and go kill a pissed off, 12-ton godzilla rejects with an axe. I, on the other hand, will be enjoying a truly original game, where skill means more than buying Def+222 Golden-Leet Armor and the Killer Mace of Doomed Death. Well, thats what I have to say on the subject. I'm going to go put on my Flame retardant suit, because I know all of the anti-FPS folks are gonna come back at me with shit like "ARGH!!!11 FP$ is t3h SuXx0r, u R Gae B-cuz U xPres ur 0p1n10n, Ha hA, i R G0d, I pWn jo0!!1"
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Look..this game is going to be 1000 times better cause you move youre char and control your char completely... which makes pvp much much more fun..i hate the point and click stuff...its everywhere. the reason i got into RYL1 was cause i didnt have to use point and click if i didnt want to.. i had to actually control my char and i had plan my skills.. most the time you click a char... wait wait... click ability...click ablity... and so on till one of you were dead... this is going to give it a fast pace action intense feel..... its going to be amazing.. you have to aim and move move move so you dont get hit...
anyone againts this is just scared that their physical skills are not up to par..i love in game skills effecting the out come.. but i think it should be a mix.... char build/gaming skill
Stedfast, I don't understand your examples. WoW is popular because it is based on a line of games that have a strong following, and is easily accessible to casual players. Fallout is popular because of the great story and engine. That being said, just because Fallout is great and is turn based, doesn't mean a game has to be turn based to be great. You didn't list Half Life 2, or the Unreal series... they have easily made as much money as WoW and Fallout.
Maybe what you want is a Fallout game that is playable online and can be completely turn based. I would play that game in a heartbeat, because I love turn based games. However, that seems to be the wrong direction for FE to go. FE is pushing the limits on current MMOs in so many areas (sound, environment, physics, customization), and I hope they also push the limits on the current MMO combat system.
The current turn based model for MMOs does compensate well for disconnects and lag, but should we cripple a game because in some areas, high speed internet isn't available? Should we cripple a game because, in very rare occassions, someone can be in the middle of a thunder storm and lose connection?
Hell no. However, I agree that permadeath is silly, because of the reasons you mentioned. No matter how good a games net code is, you can still lose connection to something completely out of your control. Having a good internet connection, though, is somewhat within your control. I understand that some countries have bad latency when connecting to other countries, but we shouldn't stifle the potential of a game because of this.
What you say about niche games is also true... they will never make as much money as a mainstream game. But is that really the goal of every developer? Maybe I am misinterpreting the actions of Icarus, but it seems to me they care more about the quality of their game than a deadline... more about their vision than the profit. It will be developers like this that push the envelope in gaming, not mainstream publishers.
I say go for it Icarus. Give us something we've never seen. Don't sacrifice innovative gameplay for mainstream acceptance.
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
I'd hate to break your bubble, but every single developer out there is in it for the profit. Icarus may be experimenting with new stuff, but in the end it's all about the cash. (Listening to players while building their new game is a good way to get more customers [equals more cash] tho.)
Some more attempts at combining the genres are underway now, and somewhere between Fallen Earth, Huxley and Twilight Wars we will see a game that gets it right. I think the niche will turn out to be not quite as small as you believe.
Not true. Of course huge companies like EA are concerned only with dollars and cents, but the term "developer" is not constrained to this type of company. How do you explain games that are released for free? How do you explain mod makers that create a gaming experience for no charge? Some developers see that quality and innovation are greater than profit.
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
I probably should have quoted this but Ive been drinking. Im not sure how long some of you have been following fallen earth, "myself only about a year now" but from the standpoint of Sinoth (no dickstucking intended) this guys been following FE alot more than most and doesn't just throw out mindless opinions. Just from the amount of time put into it, the detail and the attitude involved in the answering of personal emails, Icarus doesn't mimic in any way the attitude and swagger of the money grubbing game giants like sony and EA.
These guys are gamers making a game FOR gamers not bank accounts.
Here's to you Icarus
Gotta love those big emoticons
Lead with your face and role with the punches.
They even said way back when, that they were making a game "for gamers, by gamers." I think that really hits the note, since you get feeling *sometimes* that the developers of some games are a million miles away from the players.
This game I am certain will be different now - I've been following it for about a year and a half, and I can only see positive things - things that only gamers would have been really in tune to.
From their site: Happy customers = $$. You may view that as negatory, but it isn't. They make you happy, they get your reward.
Fallen Earth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth
Fallen Earth Roleplaying Community
As for the money thing ,, yep the bottom line is money. personally I am sick of money being the only line when it comes to MMO's. Be nice for a change to see quality enter in as one of the lines, or immersion , or GASP a dynamic world. Instead so far I have seen companies hype the heck out of a game , promise the moon, the sun, and the stars , spend tons of money on fanfairs , E3, office decorations , etc before game is even released, and then have the gall to complain about how much the games cost to make. Then when it is released and it is lacking the depth promised , or the land to explore that was promised , or any number of things and people wonder what happened to the great game they were supposed to get. Ohh yeah it went for lobser dinners , E3 babes and various other things that have nothign at all to do with the actual game itself.
.
In the end most arguements like this are completely pointless. The devs are making the game a fps. Unless the changed the style of combat long ago or they are going to push the release of the game to years from now, the combat will be fps.
Good thoughts Bronski. They are making a FPS hybrid if I recall, I'm too lazy lol to look up all the dev posts to see exactly what's been said, but I'm glad they're taking a chance to make something different, there are so many "traditional" mmos out there if you want a lock-on and spam a macro for ten seconds, go ahead, I'm ready for something else.
One thing I didn't see mentioned, forgive me if I missed it, was instead of better gear giving a chance to miss, it modifies the damage. This is obvious I think, and where the skill vs. gear comes in. If you're not on target, you have a zero percent change of hitting or doing damage, unless the weapon does area damage, like a nade or rocket might. If you're on, you hit, but if you have a crappy gun, and they have the best armor, it'll be like shooting a bb at a tank, no real effect. If you've got a freaking cannon, and they have a piece of leather for a chest piece, they die, hopefully quite quickly.
As for style of game play, will range or melee be dominant? I think both. It will likely be much easier to find and make melee weapons (bats w/ nails etc) and also you won't need ammo. If they make this pretty real, which I think they are, especially early on, technology (weapons and ammo) should be hard to find. So guns especially good ones will be a luxury. Later in the game when they become more common, most people will likely have better melee skills than ranged, because that's what their chars been using most. If ammo is rare, or expensive, and you must shoot your gun to level wth it, then it's going to be tough to level ranged. Also, if you look at the screenshots, most chars have a melee weapon, but only a few have guns, and even the ones with guns also always have a melee weapon.
In regard to the gear vs skill arguement, I hope that skill plays a large part in your overall combat effectiveness. However, I do believe gear also should play a large role but should not make you god just because you have the "best" out there. That is one thing i find silly in many games.
I personally think the gear you use should compliment your skills. If you aren't a great shot, then get a weapon that helps you hit stuff even if you stink at aiming (i.e. a shotgun or machine gun). When I played the space game in SWG this is what you did. You taliored your ships loadout to make up for your weaknesses, enhance your strengths, and to suit the situation you are going to go into.
And if you don't believe fps games have strategy in them then your experience online with them is most likely limited to time spent on public servers with the idiots. When you see a team of people working together in games like Day of Defeat, you'll see how much strategy is involved.
Obviously there isn't much strategy involved in what your attacks are
but it pushes the strategy into where you are and who is with you.
Personally I find that strategy to be a lot of fun. When I played
Battlefield 2 with a team of people who are trying to work together it
is some of the most fun i have ever had.
*EDIT*
One last thing. Many people have said mmofpsrpg hybrid type games don't work. I'd personally say that none have worked yet. I'm thinking the FE devs will prove that opinion wrong.
http://www.durmanhoth-clan.com DC Main Page
http://www.durmanhoth-clan.com/apocalypse Sci-Fi / Apoc Theme Forums
http://www.durmanhoth-clan.com/citadel DnD Style Theme forums (coming soon)
Double Post
I had some of the best times on few ocasions when me and few friends organised LAN partys last couple of years. We mostly played CounterStrike and Starcraft, and man, no matter what the fighting style is, there is nothing that can compare to the feeling when YOU beat HIM.
I'm looking forward to trying this game, because it sounds like a realy deep and versatile FPS multyplayer with story and chance to evolve that one character you can get attachet too. I also understand the "autoattack people", it gives more that RP feeling, but claiming there can be only one playstyle is just silly.
Anyways, I'm glad there will be a game that looks this promesing and promisses to be based on skill, rather then loot.
ur mom...